If someone was going to neck turn their brass, would it be better to turn it before or after it has been resized. Thanks in advance for your help
- Thread starter greggrissom
- Start date
After.
And after it has been trimmed to the same neck length.
I usually FL size (new brass even) with the expander ball out. Hit it with the expander mandrel. Trim, chamfer, clean up primer pocket/burr, neck turn, hit it with a little steel wool (on the neck after turning), clean, prime, powder, bullet, shoot. For my set up the expander mandrel for the neck turning setup I use gives me the neck tension I'm looking for. You may find that is different in your setup, and may need to neck size or FL size again when you are neck turning your brass. The whole process is a bit tough on the brass, so I like to anneal after the first firing after neck turning. If I ever get a Bench-Source or other machine to help with that task I'll probably do it every time - but for now it's an occasional task. I just finished a couple hundred pieces of .223 for F T/R this summer and am about to do the same to my .308 F T/R brass for this summers games. If you weight sort your brass do it after the brass prep is done but before you prime
And after it has been trimmed to the same neck length.
I usually FL size (new brass even) with the expander ball out. Hit it with the expander mandrel. Trim, chamfer, clean up primer pocket/burr, neck turn, hit it with a little steel wool (on the neck after turning), clean, prime, powder, bullet, shoot. For my set up the expander mandrel for the neck turning setup I use gives me the neck tension I'm looking for. You may find that is different in your setup, and may need to neck size or FL size again when you are neck turning your brass. The whole process is a bit tough on the brass, so I like to anneal after the first firing after neck turning. If I ever get a Bench-Source or other machine to help with that task I'll probably do it every time - but for now it's an occasional task. I just finished a couple hundred pieces of .223 for F T/R this summer and am about to do the same to my .308 F T/R brass for this summers games. If you weight sort your brass do it after the brass prep is done but before you prime
Why do you FL resize w/o the expander ball? I'm unsure about "hit it with the expander mandrel". Apologize for the ignorance, just want to produce good brass.
I turn the necks on my match brass after full length sizing WITH the expander (and neck lube), trimming to length, and deburing the ID. It's the ONLY time the expander ball touches my match brass. It is what opens the mouth back up for the turning tool mandrel to fit uniformly and snugly. If you have an expander mandrel (like Kelson), it basically does the same thing and you don't need to use the expander ball. I'm not sure what the advantages are to that method, so I'm all ears. Once your brass is turned, you don't need or want to use the expander ball if you are using a proper neck bushing die.
So here is the process to neck turn your brass
1 FL resize without the expander installed, you must use a non bushing die so the entire neck is sized
2 Expand the neck with whatever company's expander mandrel, this is because the expander mandrel is perfectly sized for the turning mandrel, too loose or too tight will result in uneven cuts
3 Trim all the cases to the same length, this determines how much of the neck/shoulder is cut
4 Lube the inside of the neck and the turning mandrel, I use Imperial Sizing Wax
5 Turn the necks SLOWLY, no faster than 100rpms, the slow turning ensure there is not a heat build up on the turning mandrel which will effect cutting, I recommend cutting into the shoulder 1/32 of an inch
I turn my necks to .0135, I measured my brass, and .0135 was middle of the road on the 100 or so sampled cases, most are turned 50% to 80%, some 100% and some 30%. It's a lot of work for the gains, I would not recommend neck turning to someone who can't shoot 1/2moa, nor for a weapon that can't shoot 1/2moa.
1 FL resize without the expander installed, you must use a non bushing die so the entire neck is sized
2 Expand the neck with whatever company's expander mandrel, this is because the expander mandrel is perfectly sized for the turning mandrel, too loose or too tight will result in uneven cuts
3 Trim all the cases to the same length, this determines how much of the neck/shoulder is cut
4 Lube the inside of the neck and the turning mandrel, I use Imperial Sizing Wax
5 Turn the necks SLOWLY, no faster than 100rpms, the slow turning ensure there is not a heat build up on the turning mandrel which will effect cutting, I recommend cutting into the shoulder 1/32 of an inch
I turn my necks to .0135, I measured my brass, and .0135 was middle of the road on the 100 or so sampled cases, most are turned 50% to 80%, some 100% and some 30%. It's a lot of work for the gains, I would not recommend neck turning to someone who can't shoot 1/2moa, nor for a weapon that can't shoot 1/2moa.
Well, I think there is much neck turning where there is no benefit for doing so. Maybe a light touch up won't hurt anything, but depending on the rifle and if it has a factory chamber, it's probably not going to hurt anything. But, I only turn necks on custom barrels chambered with a specified neck diameter.
You really have to evaluate your needs.Turning necks is in a different category than primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburning, for which (in my opinion) there is no negative. So, unless you are using bushing dies....less is more. BB
You really have to evaluate your needs.Turning necks is in a different category than primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburning, for which (in my opinion) there is no negative. So, unless you are using bushing dies....less is more. BB
The expander mandrel expands the neck on an up stroke meaning the pressure on the case is downward. The expander ball in a resizing die pulls out of the brass on the down stroke, applying a pulling pressure on the case. Many claim (myself included) that the standard expander ball in resizing dies stretches and deforms the case. Its an extra step to run the cases through an expander mandrel but brass is more uniform IMHO.
As far as turning necks, if you have a standard SAAMI chamber and good brass with uniform neck thickness there is not much reason to neck turn. If however, your brass is dimensionally off on neck wall thickness (Remington comes to mind) then neck turning to get a uniform wall thickness is advisable.
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Thanks for the help guys. My barrel is a custom Kreiger barrel and it will shoot 1/2 moa. I'm knew to this long range game and trying to figure out a good reloading routine. It gets really frustrating not knowing if i'm doing things correctly or not. I guess experience comes with time.
Uniform necks. Well, Lapua is supposed to be the best. I've turned enough Lapua .308 Win. necks to know that if that is true then there is no such thing as "uniform necks" straight out of the box. I turn to .015". Some barely get touched, others turn near 90%, some 100%, and all in the same lot.
If you don't use a bushing die, then don't bother to turn. Conversely, I don't understand why anyone would use a neck bushing die without an expander UNLESS they also turn their necks to be uniform, or at least more so than straight out of the box.
If you don't use a bushing die, then don't bother to turn. Conversely, I don't understand why anyone would use a neck bushing die without an expander UNLESS they also turn their necks to be uniform, or at least more so than straight out of the box.
After first firing and resizing, remember this is a once per case life operation and you want to do it after the brass is closest to your chamber dimesnions
Thanks guys.
I see a couple other advantages of neck turning.
1. Neck tension is much more consistent across the board.
2. The bullet is centered to the bore better vs being offset from to the thinner side of uneven necks.
Can most shooters realize the difference between neck turned or not? I'd say no. I do it and other benchrest prep steps knowing that my brass is as close as it gets to the one right next to it in that little plastic MTM bin. If I miss it's me not my ammo.
1. Neck tension is much more consistent across the board.
2. The bullet is centered to the bore better vs being offset from to the thinner side of uneven necks.
Can most shooters realize the difference between neck turned or not? I'd say no. I do it and other benchrest prep steps knowing that my brass is as close as it gets to the one right next to it in that little plastic MTM bin. If I miss it's me not my ammo.
Accurateshooter.com and varmintal.com both have some very good info on neck turning. Check them out!
if you go to the trouble to neck turn, why not go down to at least .014 - I find it like you said at .015 many are not touched/ improved, so any consistency is still ???
Good question - why not make it smaller to make sure it's all turned? Because sometimes to much of a good thing can hurt you. Having 'to much' neck clearance in the chamber isn't what we are looking for - and thinning the necks too much makes them more 'fragile' - easy to ding up and bend out of round by rough handling or even as part of the ejection cycle. Unless your chamber is a 'tight' chamber with a specific tight neck diameter we want to leave as much metal as is feasible on the case, while still improving the overall consistency of the neck for seating and centering purposes. That is, IF you are going to neck turn at all.
Hey, it's winter, the snow sucks for cross country skiing right now, I don't watch TV, and the wife is out of town for another week or two. What the hell else am I going to do?
Hey, it's winter, the snow sucks for cross country skiing right now, I don't watch TV, and the wife is out of town for another week or two. What the hell else am I going to do?
I think keelson explains why, (as I said above) "less is more". Just understand that there is a downside to neck turning and you should know why you are doing it. This is a specialized solution that is not always the best for a low information hand loader. BB
That's a really good question, and one I had to wrestle with myself when deciding how much brass to remove. The bell curve- the vast majority of that brass was turning at 60-85%, with the percentages on either side being few(er) in number. I wanted to keep as much thickness as possible. I could have cut deeper, and some would argue that I should, but I would have ended up making the necks on 90% of my brass thinner than needed just for the sake of the other 10%. Maybe I will adjust the cut another .0005, but not a full thousandths unless I come across a lot having thinner necks.
Keep in mind, too, that the brass moves. Each time you fire and reload the brass is being stretched, squeezed, sqwished, pulled, etc. What might start out as perfect .015" after initial turning can end up being .0140-.0145" and inconsistent around the length and circumference after many reloadings. Then it might come time again to turn them back to a consistent thickness, of, say, .014". That's where another beauty of bushing dies comes into play, as you can now refind that perfect neck tension that your rifle likes again.
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