EIC question and President Hundred

[Christopher Rance]

I've been a military sniper for almost 8 years and have competed in a handful of military and civilian run competitions over the past three years. I agree on some recent thread discussions that a sniper can benefit greatly from comp shooting. I really want to get involved in some EIC matches and take a few shots at PH, but I don't have the cash for a tricked out M16 or M9. I did some research and Perry offers some beginner matches in July with a introductory EIC match for both rifle and pistol, and I'm going to check that out, but being in Virginia, I checked for local EIC matches and its slim to none.

What's the benefit of the PH when guys are using 2k plus weapons? What's the cheapest route I can go to get started? And is the jacket, mitt, visor ect really needed?

I've checked out the cmp and national match forums already btw. I really want to extend my capabilities, and I've had my ass handed to me like team GAP and AMU, and I want to close that gap, but not spend 2k to do it.

 

[Erud]

The "goofy shit" is necessary if you want to be competitive in the sport. You can surely enter and compete without it, but you won't keep up with the guys that use it. Let match directors know before you get to a match that you are new to the sport, and you will probably have your pick of gear to borrow when you get there. Check with your state association and see if they do anything for new shooters. In MN, we have loaner rifles available for new shooters, and lots of guys(myself included) have extra stuff to loan out. Then you can decide if you enjoy it and want to pursue it further and spend more money. Nobody is using $2k rifles for EIC matches. Less than $1300 will buy you the absolute best NMA2 rifle possible that fits the CMP criteria, the same as the guys who win the P100 and NTI shoot. NRA Match Rifles are a different story.

If you just want to draw a rifle out of the arms room and go at it, shoot Combat Leg matches.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Tricked out M9 is like 2k. I looked at the RRA NM AR, but can't find for sale less then 1500.00. The coat and mit just doesn't seem practical on a match that was built on service rifles? Maybe high power but doesn't a tricked out M9 and AR defeat the original intent?

 

[sinister]

You don't need National Match kit-out if you shoot pure combat Excellence-in-Competition matches -- rack-grade M16 and M9.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR06RAfQVEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aeJ3XYtF2c

Put "AFSAM" in the youtube search bar for videos.

You still have to travel to where the matches are.

You shoot a rack-grade against everyone else -- just remember you only get three matches (plus a 4th at Camp Perry if you shoot the Nationals) per year.

From (and in) Virginia you can shoot (just a few examples, pick three and Camp Perry):

the All-Army (Benning);
Atlantic Fleet;
All-Navy (EAST);
USMC Eastern Division Matches;
Interservice (Quantico);
the Virginia Regional (or another civilian state regional) EIC;
Armed Forces Small Arms Championship Matches (AFSAM);
and the National Matches at Camp Perry.

The Distinguished Badge can be won shooting combat, bullseye, or a mix of both.

It ain't about the gadgets, but how well you point the rifle and pistol as measured against everyone else shooting that match, that day, at that range.

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/competitions/2012/wpw-afsam program.pdf

Armed Forces Skill at Arms Meeting (AFSAM) 2012 - YouTube

 

[ksthomas]

C.Rance,

As Erud said, you can get into the HP game a lot more inexpensively than the figures you cited, and wit the advent of the M16/AR-15 taking over the game, there's just no need to spend that kind of money these days. You will definitely want the coat and glove, though. Yeah, you can shoot without them, but I promise you, you'll be looking to buy them within a match or two. Lots more support for offhand and sitting, and they make prone bearable if/when you have your sling tight enough; you can't do this with a t shirt or an ACU top, and expect to be in the hunt. Start with the Distinguished Badge (EIC matches) and worry about the Hundred later. You can shoot EIC at any of several different matches, regionals, state championships, etc., across the country, but the President's Hundred is strictly Camp Perry, one chance per year, and you're shooting against (literally) the best Service Rifle shooters in the country; AMU, the All-Guard teams, the USMC Team from Quantico, etc., and that's some pretty tough company.

Take a look at the NM rifles from Rock River, Armalite or any of several others. They're competitive right out of the box, and will run right around $900 or so if you catch them at the right times. That, or look at the "basic" builds on any existing AR being offered by White Oak, Compass Lake or Accuracy Speaks. Most will entail a trigger job, a float tube and some sight work, which is usually all that's needed to make these guns into sub MOA shooters. Three-quarters to half MOA isn't terribly unusual from them, even without an aftermarket barrel and will be enough to take you to Master, or possibly even High Master before you need to start looking at a better quality barrel.

And don't hesitate to ask questions, either. Many of us on this forum are regular competitors, are at Perry every year, and may be close enough to lend you a hand. It's a good group, and one that you'll no doubt learn a great deal from.

 

[Erud]

I don't shoot EIC Pistol, so I can't speak to that. RRA NMA2's go for below $1k complete at RRA's shop at Camp Perry every year, including 2013. The $1300 I mentioned for the best possible EIC rifle would be mostly WOA stuff:

- Complete post-ban upper, $695
White Oak Armament | Complete Uppers | High Power Competition | AR15 Upper Post-Ban

- Geissele Service Rifle Trigger, $279
�

- LPK minus Trigger, $40.30
White Oak Armament

- A2 Buttstock Assembly, $63.75
White Oak Armament

Add your favorite lower receiver for around $100, and you come to $1178.05. Leaves some spare cash if you want to add weights, etc. I think the original intent was a competition of marksmanship. It's been a pretty long time since everyone grabbed a rifle off the rack and shot in their street clothes(aside from military-only Combat EIC's, as mentioned above), I am sure liability and cost had a lot to do with that change. You are free to shoot the cheapest rifle you can find and use no additional gear, but you will need to be reasonable in your expectations. If you just want to shoot matches and have fun, more power to you. There aren't a ton of points you can buy in this game, and no gear will turn a bad shooter into a good shooter, but at some point your equipment can become the limiting factor. The things you can do to a Service Rifle and still have it be a Service Rifle are pretty limited, and pretty much everyone competing in EIC matches is shooting the same rifle with the same mods.

It's no different than any other sport really - you can play baseball in your yard with a sawed off broom handle and a tennis ball, but once you join the high school team, you will need a real bat, ball and glove to be competitive.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Thanks guys for the great amount of info. I appreciate it.

 

[ksthomas]

Some years back I had Tony Kidd build up one of his M9s, and yeah, they're pricey. Lot's more guys out there still doing good work on the 1911s, if you want to go down that road. For the combat EIC stuff, I doubt that this is necessary, but it will be if you go the Bullseye route; much more demanding game, and a very high round count. That was the problem with the M9s for that game, the round count. Most will shoot themselves loose long before you go Distinguished without the "hardening" and accurizing process that Tony developed for the AMU guns.

The M14s were a different game, back when they ruled this game. Very expensive to build, and very expensive to keep them running well. The ARs have truly leveled the playing field today, and you really can shoot a Service Rifle that's every bit the equal of those the AMU team is using, without going broke. The downside (if you want to call it that) is that scores have gone up accordingly. What would have made the cut easily 20 years ago won't even come close today. Makes for better shooters in the long run, so I'd have to say, that's a good thing overall.

 

[Christopher Rance]

For me its just about gaining more knowledge and having a goal in sight. I really think as a sniper section leader its important for me to continue my quest to get better in all aspects of shooting and by embedding myself in the NM community is a must.

I've competed against the guys from AMU and it was quite the challenge, and its good to get beat down, puts things in perspective but gives you a drive to get better.

 

[sinister]

You don't have to worry about a "Beat down" -- you compete against yourself.

Your EIC score and standing are measured against the population of shooters who do NOT have a Distinguished Badge. You get points for finishing in the top 10% of the entire non-Distinguished population in a Leg match.

You can get or build a good, serviceable, and competitive National Match rifle (new or used) for at or under $1000. You can get a discount on rifles and loading components from some manufacturers at Perry or if you are an active military competitor.

The cheapest way to get into rifle (as a self-sponsored shooter) is to find a standard A2 or A4 with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel, put in a Geissele High Speed trigger, and free-float the barrel (using something like a Daniel Defense or Larue 12.0). You'll have to learn how to hand load, or buy match ammo.

If you shoot the All-Army and you catch the attention of the Army team, Reserve team, or the Guard team you can be invited to shoot with them (on the AMU's or other teams' dime) for the summer. You would be issued a rifle or pistol and ammo, and your match fees, TDY travel, and per diem are covered. This program has been around for a while.

You can shoot on the weekends with the Virginia Team at Quantico, and with North Carolina and the CMP-Creedmoor East matches at Camp Butner. Your address shows DC -- Quantico is probably the nearest regular highpower rifle competition, while Butner has a very, very strong 1,000-yard competition schedule. You could try to start a unit team and get unit funding.

The All-Army also has a long-range phase if you can only spend a few days for belly-shooting.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Thanks, great stuff right there. I'm actually headed down to Quantico in Jan for their Scout Sniper Team Leader course, but I'll be sure to ask around and utilize those resources you mentioned.

 

[Douglas-001]

Pick up a Rock River A2 NM at vendors row, run 77's all the way to 300, 80's at 600 and you're good to go. I watched shooters do quite well with those stock rifles at every stage. Get the glove and a coat. I have found that members of the AMU and Marine Rifle Team are the nicest people and always willing to help new shooters. Considering you have a few legs up on most, ask one of these team members for their thoughts.

I just picked up a Colt Gold Cup for pistol matches but that may wait until 2015 as I'm focused on the rifle right now. those pistols are a whole different animal. Some one said to earn the pistol badge then rifle. Oops...once again I got it backwards...Good luck and good shooting! See you on Viale!

Doug

 

[kraigWY]

You don't need National Match kit-out if you shoot pure combat Excellence-in-Competition matches -- rack-grade M16 and M9.

That is 100% correct. Just about any "off the rack" ARs our there will get you started.

First thing, go to the CMP Book store and spend $6.95 for this book.

Civilian Marksmanship Program eStore

The small arms firing school is a great place to get started, but you don't have to go to Perry for them. The CMP conducts the SAFS at the Eastern Games (NC) Western Games (Ariz), the Ok City Games (OK), plus you can get starter points at several of the CMP GSM Games.

The NRA doesn't run EIC Matches, the CMP does, do you go by CMP Rules. Down load the Rule Book from the CMP website.

CMP - Competition Rulebooks

Keep checking the CMP's Upcoming EIC Match site. Not many there now but as the shooting season approaches, more will show up.

CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Upcoming Competitions and Events

Take into account, that right now CMP Clubs are preparing their 2013 After Action reports to submit to the CMP, after that is when we start submitting our applications to conduct matches, so along abut March, April, and May, you'll see a lot more matches pop up.

If you're Active Duty or NG/Reserve, be sure to check your respective service for rules regarding the EIC program, for Example the Army only allows 10 pts in a Civil Match, the rest have to be "Hard Points, such as the Wilson Matches, NG Region Matches, All Army, Inter-service or Perry (National Matches).

What every you do, start shooting HP, even if you have to start using a Garand, Practice offhand, Matches are won and lost in the offhand position. It's a worthy goal and contrary to what many say, it can't do anything but help your rifle shooting no matter what venue you choose.

All States and DC have NG units, these state Guard units conduct their State Championships to select teams for the Wilson Matches (National Guard Championships). The conduct leg matches at these events and they are open to NON Guard personal if the range permits. So be sure to check with your surrounding State's Marksmanship Units.

Good luck, Getting the DR badge is a great accomplishment. The program started in 1884, to this date (12-26-2013) there are only 7723 Distinguished Rifle Badges earned.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Thanks guys for the wealth of information. I'm excited to get this adventure started.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Well with taxes filed, I want to purchase an upper to start competing in local and National matches. I registered with the CMP so I can start signing up for matches and hopefully my first taste of it will be the SAFS at the Eastern Games. I think it's important to grasp the basics first in a class environment and if my upper comes in time I'll try to compete in the EIC match as well.

On to the upper, I contacted Rock River Arms and they offer a great price with military discount on their NM A2 upper. I think as a beginner this is a good deal but what rear sight should I select? I suppose 1/4 min adjustments offer greater tuning?

Thanks and I'm getting pumped for my first match. Just watching videos on you tube as been very inspiring.

 

[kraigWY]

I suppose 1/4 min adjustments offer greater tuning?

I'd go to 1/2 min clicks if I was you. In high power you don't need 1/4 min and its too hard to keep up with the count.

Just my opinion.

 

[Xcount]

I'd go to 1/2 min clicks if I was you. In high power you don't need 1/4 min and its too hard to keep up with the count.

Just my opinion.

i've recommended 1/2 moa sights to non distinguished shooters for quite a while. the reason being is run the ballistics at jbm and you'll see berger 82@2750 needs about 5moa for 10mph full value. that's .5moa per 1 mph and almost nobody can consistently see 1 mph differences. so a 1/4 click is at best an insurance click. if you were mostly a short course shooter the 1/4 moa can help but with getting distinguished as the goal you have deal with 600 and tracking double the clicks in tricky conditions is not worth the grief. remember shooting 2 tens without an adjustment in the same time is better than shooting one x because you took time to determine the wind changed one click. read what David Tubb has to say about the subject of shooting fast at 600.
once that badge is in the rear view you can reconsider.

 

[bogeybrown]

CRance,

I'm kind of where you are in trying to get into EIC comps once I'm home again. A number of the gentlemen on this thread helped me quite a bit with some of the same questions, along with [MENTION=32518]2ndPanzer[/MENTION] who I haven't seen around in a while. You said you've checked out the NM forum, John Scandale from Keystone is there and does the sight pinning and some other work on NM and Match rifles and always seems willing to help us newbies. I also lucked into a brand new WOA upper as a "spare" for the RRA NM I picked up. The for sale section over there also usually has some deals on the little stuff like coats, gloves, etc.

ETA: I also picked up some good knowledge on equipment and positions from the youtube videos by Pat McDonough.

 

[damoncali]

I started out shooting High Power at Quantico in about 2000. I showed up for my first match with a leather work glove and an a couple sweatshirts and promptly shot a sharpshooter score. First thing I did when I got home was order a coat and proper glove. Instant expert. For me, at that level, it was worth about 20-30 points on an 80 round course. I bet a high master needs the coat less than a beginner (I wouldn't know because I'm not a HM and haven't shot without a coat since), but it makes a big difference. The glove is more to keep you hand from getting chewed up in prone. The coat really helps, though.

By the way, if you can shoot at Quantico, do it. Fantastic range. Back then, they even had kids pulling targets for $20. Not sure if they still do that. The Marines used to (maybe still do?) put on a hell of a rifle clinic as well.

 

[bogeybrown]

+1 on shooting at Quantico any chance you get. When I was there for the PMI School they told us that it was the only range in the Marine Corps that units had to pay a fee to shoot on. I've played on many a golf course that wasn't as well maintained as those ranges. Several inches of beautiful grass made policing up brass an unholy bitch though.

 

[Mendocino]

If you want to do some field shooting in the natural terrain come check out our events: COMPETITION DYNAMICS.

 

[Ring]

What's the benefit of the PH when guys are using 2k plus weapons?

dont go into it with the mindset think you going to win... or that you are even "competing" with the top people...

the only person you should be competing with is yourself... dont shoot it to win... shoot it to get better...

 

[VJJPunisher]

You don't have to worry about a "Beat down" -- you compete against yourself.

Your EIC score and standing are measured against the population of shooters who do NOT have a Distinguished Badge. You get points for finishing in the top 10% of the entire non-Distinguished population in a Leg match.

You can get or build a good, serviceable, and competitive National Match rifle (new or used) for at or under $1000. You can get a discount on rifles and loading components from some manufacturers at Perry or if you are an active military competitor.

The cheapest way to get into rifle (as a self-sponsored shooter) is to find a standard A2 or A4 with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel, put in a Geissele High Speed trigger, and free-float the barrel (using something like a Daniel Defense or Larue 12.0). You'll have to learn how to hand load, or buy match ammo.

If you shoot the All-Army and you catch the attention of the Army team, Reserve team, or the Guard team you can be invited to shoot with them (on the AMU's or other teams' dime) for the summer. You would be issued a rifle or pistol and ammo, and your match fees, TDY travel, and per diem are covered. This program has been around for a while.

You can shoot on the weekends with the Virginia Team at Quantico, and with North Carolina and the CMP-Creedmoor East matches at Camp Butner. Your address shows DC -- Quantico is probably the nearest regular highpower rifle competition, while Butner has a very, very strong 1,000-yard competition schedule. You could try to start a unit team and get unit funding.

The All-Army also has a long-range phase if you can only spend a few days for belly-shooting.

Interesting picture sinister, since I am in that pic shooting, oh and that's the year I won all army long range, just sayin

 

[VJJPunisher]

You don't need National Match kit-out if you shoot pure combat Excellence-in-Competition matches -- rack-grade M16 and M9.

AMU hosts All Army Small Arms Championship - YouTube
2013 All Army Small Arms Championship, 4-101 Pathfinders - YouTube

Put "AFSAM" in the youtube search bar for videos.

You still have to travel to where the matches are.

You shoot a rack-grade against everyone else -- just remember you only get three matches (plus a 4th at Camp Perry if you shoot the Nationals) per year.

From (and in) Virginia you can shoot (just a few examples, pick three and Camp Perry):

the All-Army (Benning);
Atlantic Fleet;
All-Navy (EAST);
USMC Eastern Division Matches;
Interservice (Quantico);
the Virginia Regional (or another civilian state regional) EIC;
Armed Forces Small Arms Championship Matches (AFSAM);
and the National Matches at Camp Perry.

The Distinguished Badge can be won shooting combat, bullseye, or a mix of both.

It ain't about the gadgets, but how well you point the rifle and pistol as measured against everyone else shooting that match, that day, at that range.

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/competitions/2012/wpw-afsam program.pdf

Armed Forces Skill at Arms Meeting (AFSAM) 2012 - YouTube

Sorry I quoted the whole post as I am on my phone and its a pain in the ass to cut out the non wanted parts but I wanted to highlight the second picture, the poster, and say just don't do like that guy on the bottom of the poster

 

[Erud]

dont go into it with the mindset think you going to win... or that you are even "competing" with the top people...

the only person you should be competing with is yourself... dont shoot it to win... shoot it to get better...

Why? Personally, I go into everything with the mindset that I am going to win. Sometimes I actually do. I don't get the point of just competing with yourself. Why bother even showing up at a competition? You don't even need to leave home for that...

 

[damoncali]

Seems like an appropriate point to interject with a link to Lanny Bassham's book:

With Winning in Mind 3rd. Ed.: Lanny Bassham: 9781934324264: Amazon.com: Books

Believing you can win is not the same thing as being capable of winning. Both conditions are necessary for consistent winning, and one builds off the other. So you don't have to believe you can win today in order to believe it tomorrow. But just sitting back and saying "I'll never win" means that you never will.

Great read for those who haven't had a chance yet.

 

[Xcount]

Eric,
I think the term "competing against yourself" comes from that you are not actually physically competing, think football, you are responsible for your score. You are not getting physically beat at the range. I'm sure you've had days that mental lapses have cost you a stage or aggregate. The higher up you get the mental management gets more important, at some point some people forget how to shoot bad shots, but mentally they have to stay in that comfort zone (Bassham's Triad State). To me the toughest matches are the ones you know you can win, there is nobody there even close to your skill, then you have to execute every task or you give it away. Tough drive home after giving away a medal or points.

Bassham's Mental Management tapes are a good purchase, expands the With Winning In Mind concept to about 8 hours.