Ok just got a WOA 18in spr barrel in 223 Wylde in December. I did a proper barrel break in for the first 40 rounds (cleaned before first shot and after every shot) it's on a free floating rail. Starting off the accuracy was ok about 1.5 Moa with some pmc 55g fmj. Then after about 100 rounds I got some Fed gold medal match 69g and shot that. I wasn't very pleased with my results still sitting at 1.25 Moa. Tried tons of hand loads with 55 amax, 62 privi, 69 smk and 75g privi hpbt. All over varget with remington br primers. Best accuracy was 1.20 Moa at 100. I thought these barrels were supposed to be good. Any tips or advice (as of yesterday I have 250 rounds through it
- Thread starter wolfpack0313
- Start date
What type/brand of upper receiver did you use?
Stag arms
Make of the rail?
How did you torque the barrel nut?
Did you grease the receiver threads before torquing?
Barrel extension, how did it feel in the receiver - loose, snug, just a small minute amount of play??
How did you torque the barrel nut?
Did you grease the receiver threads before torquing?
Barrel extension, how did it feel in the receiver - loose, snug, just a small minute amount of play??
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Troy bravo rail. My buddy who is a usmc armorer helped me put the barrel on and we used a torque wrench to set it to middle of torque specs. And we did grease the receiver threads prior to installing the barrel
OK, just getting the basic and obvious stuff out of the way first. 
It was a nice snug fit. As for optics and mount I have a swfa ss 3-15 in mk 4 rings. Shooting with bipod and bag
Every single facet of your upper can potentially have an adverse effect on accuracy.
What type muzzle device do you have on the muzzle? Take it off and try again. Prepare to be amazed. There's a surprisingly large number of extremely popular muzzle devices that have an adverse effect on accuracy. This is the most common problem, as well as the simplest to fix.
How did your bolt headspace?
What is the weight of the barrel?
Type Scope?
Type scope mount? Secure?
Is the gas block close to contacting the rail at 6 o'clock on the handguard that supports the bipod? I'm talking about within 3/16" or less close.
How hard do you bear down on the rifle when you shoot?
Is this batch of ammo known to shoot sub-MOA in another weapon?
What length gas system?
Have you looked at the chamber and bore with a borescope?
Can you shoot sub-MOA with a gas gun?
Noveske Rifleworks recently sent a nearby Arizona customer to me with an accuracy problem. He had … a Troy forend! The rail supporting his bipod underneath his gas block was making contact with the gas block as the barrel whipsawed during firing. We also checked headspace, replaced gas rings, polished and contoured feed ramps, did a KG-2 polish of the barrel, and replaced the for end with something else.
This guy can shoot. He's sent me photos of sub-half MOA groups.
What type muzzle device do you have on the muzzle? Take it off and try again. Prepare to be amazed. There's a surprisingly large number of extremely popular muzzle devices that have an adverse effect on accuracy. This is the most common problem, as well as the simplest to fix.
How did your bolt headspace?
What is the weight of the barrel?
Type Scope?
Type scope mount? Secure?
Is the gas block close to contacting the rail at 6 o'clock on the handguard that supports the bipod? I'm talking about within 3/16" or less close.
How hard do you bear down on the rifle when you shoot?
Is this batch of ammo known to shoot sub-MOA in another weapon?
What length gas system?
Have you looked at the chamber and bore with a borescope?
Can you shoot sub-MOA with a gas gun?
Noveske Rifleworks recently sent a nearby Arizona customer to me with an accuracy problem. He had … a Troy forend! The rail supporting his bipod underneath his gas block was making contact with the gas block as the barrel whipsawed during firing. We also checked headspace, replaced gas rings, polished and contoured feed ramps, did a KG-2 polish of the barrel, and replaced the for end with something else.
This guy can shoot. He's sent me photos of sub-half MOA groups.
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OK, assuming (and no offense meant to you) that it's the bow and not the indian. Another question.
Did you bed the barrel extension?
I know you said it felt snug, but you'd be surprised at what a drop of Loctite on a barrel extension can do to help shrink group size.
Another thing to consider is lapping the receiver face, in addition to the Loctite trick. A dead square face and bedded barrel extension can do wonders too.
*MSTN brings up some great points.
Did you bed the barrel extension?
I know you said it felt snug, but you'd be surprised at what a drop of Loctite on a barrel extension can do to help shrink group size.
Another thing to consider is lapping the receiver face, in addition to the Loctite trick. A dead square face and bedded barrel extension can do wonders too.
*MSTN brings up some great points.
I did the break in with the yhm break on and after the first 100 rounds I took it off, not really any difference. My armorer buddy did head spacing w gauges and it was good. Weight of barrel as in contour it's match spr 18in. Scope is swfa ss 3-15 rings are leupold mk4 medium. For the gas block it has a good half inch clearance all around it. Mid length gas system. I tested about 20ish types of reloads and the best were all about 1.2 Moa. I have not bore scoped it. And I'm a fairly good shot (145-7x out of 150 at 600 with a KA M110 and LC match ammo)
Sounds like you can shoot, too.
Don't ask me to explain why, because I cannot, but …. My luck with both mid- and intermediate-length gas systems on 18" barrels has not been good. So bad I quit carrying 18" Noveske barrels in their stock contour. Our Noveske custom contour 18" with rifle length gas system is on the other hand beautiful.
I've had issues with YHM muzzle devices, among others. But, maybe that was just me - or the examples I had.
It's tough to get proper eye relief with conventional rings using an AR' - unless you put the forward ring on the forend. Is that by chance the case? If so, it could be the problem. Again, it's just what I've observed from doing this a long time. Don't ask me to explain why. Dave Lutz of KAC informed me of this particular issue when I myself had problems with an early issue SR-15 match about 14 years ago.
Don't ask me to explain why, because I cannot, but …. My luck with both mid- and intermediate-length gas systems on 18" barrels has not been good. So bad I quit carrying 18" Noveske barrels in their stock contour. Our Noveske custom contour 18" with rifle length gas system is on the other hand beautiful.
I've had issues with YHM muzzle devices, among others. But, maybe that was just me - or the examples I had.
It's tough to get proper eye relief with conventional rings using an AR' - unless you put the forward ring on the forend. Is that by chance the case? If so, it could be the problem. Again, it's just what I've observed from doing this a long time. Don't ask me to explain why. Dave Lutz of KAC informed me of this particular issue when I myself had problems with an early issue SR-15 match about 14 years ago.
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Another thing.
You've been shooting an M-110. Driving a .308 gas gun properly is sort of like escorting a drunk to the door. You have to really hold on.
A 5.56 mouse gun, on the other hand, will actually flex 3 MOA if you aren't careful. You can hold it like a new baby. I have a customer who shoots 3-gun built like a gorilla that had to learn to not use all that muscle in shooting the longer stages - and his performance improved markedly.
Get some old wuss bench rest guy to shoot it. For your own safety, deflate your ego prior.
You've been shooting an M-110. Driving a .308 gas gun properly is sort of like escorting a drunk to the door. You have to really hold on.
A 5.56 mouse gun, on the other hand, will actually flex 3 MOA if you aren't careful. You can hold it like a new baby. I have a customer who shoots 3-gun built like a gorilla that had to learn to not use all that muscle in shooting the longer stages - and his performance improved markedly.
Get some old wuss bench rest guy to shoot it. For your own safety, deflate your ego prior.
Lately I just use the break for a thread protector and take it off when I shoot. All the fundamentals of shooting are applied (I'm also a marksmanship coach for the usmc) I use a shooting mat and a creedmore jacket when I shoot. So is it dumb to think I should just take the upper apart clean it good try the loctite and re assemble it? Or should I look at a new upper receiver? (I don't quite see how a upper would matter that much?)
I've had a few others shoot it as well same results. Frustrating when your rifle doesn't want to preform as well as you would like.
I have the same barrel. I did ladder tests on it to get it to shoot .5moa. Before that 1-1/2 was normal for all the loads I used. Once I got it dialed in though , it's a tack driver.
Are you tuning your loads to the gun or just using random loads?
I also shoot groups with a 24 power scope. When I put my 4 power 3 gun scope on, it is 1-1/2"-2" groups. Only because I can't refine my poa.
Are you tuning your loads to the gun or just using random loads?
I also shoot groups with a 24 power scope. When I put my 4 power 3 gun scope on, it is 1-1/2"-2" groups. Only because I can't refine my poa.
I'm not a professional builder, but I'd at least try the Loctite and see if it leads to any improvements.
The last 5 builds I've done have all been fantastic shooters, easily more accurate than I was (with the given optic - Aimpoint PRO/EO-Tech 512), and I have to say, in my experiences, the Loctite does make a difference.
The last 5 builds I've done have all been fantastic shooters, easily more accurate than I was (with the given optic - Aimpoint PRO/EO-Tech 512), and I have to say, in my experiences, the Loctite does make a difference.
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I have it on 15 when I'm testing my loads I start 1.5g low and go in .2g increments up to max load
What trigger?
It was a Psa trigger kit. I did a trigger job on it and replaced the springs with jp springs. It's super smooth and clean
I've seen this be a gas issue, have you tried ripping the gas tube off and re installing it making sure its not pressed up against anything?
Why the break in? Try some heavy bullets like 75-77gr. Check your barrel nut torque, check optic rings/mount.
I recently installed a WOA 16" 1/7 twist with the Wyldle chamber on my AR. I was pissed the first 200 rounds I could not get a group better than 1.75 MOA. I tried around ten different brands and bullet weights but everything was around the 2 MOA mark. I took the rifle home and cleaned the heck out of the bore with sweets and now it shoots great. One of the weirdest things I have seen. The barrel really likes SSA 77gr OTM I would give it a try.
Sometimes, you just get a bad barrel.
Out of the hundreds and hundreds of Noveske SS barrels worked with, I've had four I've had to send back because they wouldn't shoot.
Three were 18" mid-lengths. Hundreds of rounds wasted. No telling how many cleanings. You could see no flaw at all with a borescope. Noveske replaced all three unflinchingly. John quit making the 1x8 poly 18" for the simple reason that sometimes they would not shoot the way he demanded they should. He could not explain it, either.
It's been over four years since I've had a bad Noveske barrel. Their QC is amazingly good. Then, one popped up last month, a 14.5" Afghan. The borescope plainly showed a bad crown. Noveske is replacing it, as well.
BTW, I like 40 FT-LB as my target barrel nut torque on AR-15's. So did Dave Lutz of KAC. Same for PRI's boss, Dave Dunlap, who has personally rebuilt more of the SF's Mk 12's than probably any single person.
Out of the hundreds and hundreds of Noveske SS barrels worked with, I've had four I've had to send back because they wouldn't shoot.
Three were 18" mid-lengths. Hundreds of rounds wasted. No telling how many cleanings. You could see no flaw at all with a borescope. Noveske replaced all three unflinchingly. John quit making the 1x8 poly 18" for the simple reason that sometimes they would not shoot the way he demanded they should. He could not explain it, either.
It's been over four years since I've had a bad Noveske barrel. Their QC is amazingly good. Then, one popped up last month, a 14.5" Afghan. The borescope plainly showed a bad crown. Noveske is replacing it, as well.
BTW, I like 40 FT-LB as my target barrel nut torque on AR-15's. So did Dave Lutz of KAC. Same for PRI's boss, Dave Dunlap, who has personally rebuilt more of the SF's Mk 12's than probably any single person.
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Is it fluted? I ask because I had a bud that had a lothar walther barrel that shot great. He got it fluted and when it came back it wouldn't shoot no matter what.
I'm in the same range with mine. Tend to use a lot of YHM rails (since I can fit a can inside them) and normally I end up in the mid 30 to almost 40 ft/lbs range.
After being taught by a local 'smith that specializes in AR's, it's become much more enjoyable to build my own.
*Didn't know Noveske had that issue with the 18" barrel, that explains why I very rarely see them around anymore. Thanks for a little education.
1/7 twist, stay away from light pills. As said, square the receiver face. I would e-mail WOA here:
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/help.php?section=contactus&mode=update
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/help.php?section=contactus&mode=update
controlled pair
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Unless it's a flat based bullet like the 50 grain (or heavier) Hornady VMAX. This bullet as loaded by Black Hills is often the most accurate load we test inside of 300 yards.
Beyond that, the 69 & 77 grain SMKs always rule.
I have never had a bad WOA barrel. Even my PMC cheap ammo that I use in 3 gun will shoot under a inch. Many varibles in the build.
Great info! Is the inconsistencies with the 18"/midlength gas unique to the Noveske barrels or pretty much across the board?
As to muzzle breaks, what brands/flavors do you find to be most effective without altering accuracy?
I don't have an SPR but I have a WOA DMR barrel with a rifle length gas system that I had cut down to 18 inches and recrowned.
It shoots half MOA all day.
Funny thing is, I had asked a question on arfcom about what buffer and spring to use on an 18 inch barrel with a rifle length gas system and someone from Noveske chimed in that they didn't like the combo....something about cyclic rate and it being hard to get to run properly.
That was about 3 years ago.....funny to hear that now they use the rifle length gas system on 18 inch barrels.
It shoots half MOA all day.
Funny thing is, I had asked a question on arfcom about what buffer and spring to use on an 18 inch barrel with a rifle length gas system and someone from Noveske chimed in that they didn't like the combo....something about cyclic rate and it being hard to get to run properly.
That was about 3 years ago.....funny to hear that now they use the rifle length gas system on 18 inch barrels.
Sweets did it for me!!!!! Shot best group ever 4 shots in .3 group at 115 yards and the rest 0.6 or 0.8 I swear it does miracles
I can't prove it scientifically, but it seems to me that there are some barrel and gas system combinations that produce more consistent accuracy results; and, of course, some perform less well. The 18" mid-lengths fall into the latter category, in my estimation. I don't even like intermediate 18" barrels. On the other hand, I truly love an 18" with rifle length gas system, like the barrel we jokingly call our "Mk 12 Mod 2" profile custom barrel from Noveske. At 100 yards, the most accurate barrels I've ever worked with on average are 12.5" Noveske SS!!!
Brakes - I'm not the MSTN 3-Gun guy. That's Paul E. He developed the MSTN QC Brake (built by PRI) with Taran Butler of 3-Gun fame many years ago. Taran's been doing quite well with it ever since. Taran turned down $5000 to shoot a season with a competitor's brake! There are LOTS of muzzle devices out there that have an adverse effect on accuracy - especially with heavy bullets.
In addition to the MSTN QC Brake, I really like the Surefire brakes. I have more of them on my AR's than anything - because you can hand a Surefire can on them!
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For the sweets I just put it on a patch ran down my barrel 10x then use a new dry patch for 10x until it was clean then. I did that 2x and once it was clean I put some good old clp on a patch and did 3 of that
LOL see I'm not crazy! Glad it worked for you too.
Well, here's my 2-cents ...
About 5 yrs ago I had a local 'smith put together a WOA SPR upper, using their receiver, WOA 18" SS barrel and 12" DD rail. I also had him install a Geissle DMR trigger, the adjustable one, in a RRA lower and set it up for a very light pull ...
Problem was, it never shot better than 1.5-2.0 MOA @ 100yds from a bipod and rear bag rest. I've been shooting for 40-some years, have shot in the Nat'l Matches and local Hi-power comps, so I was pretty certain I wasn't the problem, or even a contributing factor ...
I tried various factory match ammo, my handloads, different bullet-weights, yadda yadda.
Once in a while I'd group 5 shots just a tad under 1 MOA @ 100yds, but that was rare.
Over time I'd been re-thinking the DD rail which proved, for my needs anyway, to be too heavy. So about a year ago I bought a PRI Gen III rifle-length tube (the one w/ the top rail and short rails @ 3, 6, & 9 o'clock) and had a different 'smith do the install. After explaining the accuracy issues I was having with match-grade ammo, I asked him to recheck all the torque specs, etc., as well as the trigger and make adjustments as needed.
Well, he found the trigger to be fine, but broke a wrench just getting the barrel nut off. He found several things out-of-spec, including the torque.
But once he installed the PRI tube and had it properly torqued, not only was it a lighter set up over all, but on my first outing w/ Norma's 77 .223 match ammo, the rifle shot one ragged hole @ 100yds - maybe a .75"
Long story short, it wasn't a barrel problem. It was an install problem, courtesy of the first 'smith.
I don't have the know-how or tools to do it myself, but having a competent AR 'smith set it up right the first time prevents these sorts of aggravations and extra expenses down the road.
I'm quite happy w/ the way my WOA SPR shoots now, although I haven't been able to reload much for her due to lack of time and job distractions.
Again, just my experience.
About 5 yrs ago I had a local 'smith put together a WOA SPR upper, using their receiver, WOA 18" SS barrel and 12" DD rail. I also had him install a Geissle DMR trigger, the adjustable one, in a RRA lower and set it up for a very light pull ...
Problem was, it never shot better than 1.5-2.0 MOA @ 100yds from a bipod and rear bag rest. I've been shooting for 40-some years, have shot in the Nat'l Matches and local Hi-power comps, so I was pretty certain I wasn't the problem, or even a contributing factor ...
I tried various factory match ammo, my handloads, different bullet-weights, yadda yadda.
Once in a while I'd group 5 shots just a tad under 1 MOA @ 100yds, but that was rare.
Over time I'd been re-thinking the DD rail which proved, for my needs anyway, to be too heavy. So about a year ago I bought a PRI Gen III rifle-length tube (the one w/ the top rail and short rails @ 3, 6, & 9 o'clock) and had a different 'smith do the install. After explaining the accuracy issues I was having with match-grade ammo, I asked him to recheck all the torque specs, etc., as well as the trigger and make adjustments as needed.
Well, he found the trigger to be fine, but broke a wrench just getting the barrel nut off. He found several things out-of-spec, including the torque.
But once he installed the PRI tube and had it properly torqued, not only was it a lighter set up over all, but on my first outing w/ Norma's 77 .223 match ammo, the rifle shot one ragged hole @ 100yds - maybe a .75"
Long story short, it wasn't a barrel problem. It was an install problem, courtesy of the first 'smith.
I don't have the know-how or tools to do it myself, but having a competent AR 'smith set it up right the first time prevents these sorts of aggravations and extra expenses down the road.
I'm quite happy w/ the way my WOA SPR shoots now, although I haven't been able to reload much for her due to lack of time and job distractions.
Again, just my experience.
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