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Advanced Marksmanship Seem to be pulling left somehow

akmike47

Rumpleforeskin King of the Poors
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 23, 2013
    10,137
    39,536
    Went to the 600yard range with my buddy today. We took his AR50 and 5R .308. It was my first time shooting past 300yards and I kept hitting the left third of a steel torso target. I even held right and hit the same spot?

    What could I be doing to aim dead center and hitting the left shoulder?

    I was shooting prone and on the bench. Bipod was being loaded, I was relaxed as u could get, watching my breathing, and only my strong hand was on the rifle and I wasn't just steadying the rifle I didn't have a tight grip or anything.

    I was making most of my hits just not where I wanted them. The AR50 is a breeze at 600 with the added weight, but I even managed to pull a few of them haha.


    sent from the bathroom
     
    I suspect you answered your own question when you said " I even pulled a few of them ". Most shooters believe they are marksmen until they go it at distance and then their little misgivings show up. Everything has to be done the same way...each and every time!!!! no changes. It's like hitting a golf ball off the tee, no deviation from swing to swing.
     
    Seem to be pulling left somehow

    I suspect you answered your own question when you said " I even pulled a few of them ". Most shooters believe they are marksmen until they go it at distance and then their little misgivings show up. Everything has to be done the same way...each and every time!!!! no changes. It's like hitting a golf ball off the tee, no deviation from swing to swing.

    Oh trust me I know I'm no marksman lol.

    I just thought I'd ask so I could work on correcting it :D

    At least it's pretty much doing the same thing every shot so if I can figure out what's making me pull it I'll be doing pretty good.

    Haven't shot in months so that's a big factor I flinched my first 3 shots and I never do that haha. When you go from weekly range visits to none for months things go to pot I guess.

    sent from the bathroom
     
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    Canted scope, follow threw, flinching , trigger jerk ... All applicable. We're you shooting off a bench , prone , ... Tell me how it went down
     
    Bench and prone with a Bipod/Bags. The scope is level(its my buddies rifle and he shoots great with it). All I can figure is I haven't shot in months , and I think I might be Flinching I know I did a few times. its just weird I hit pretty much the same spot every shot, but about 10'' high and 6'' left.

    Ive read/saw videos where they say don't hold the rifle tight, and relax so I was trying that, but I also know I need to work on my mechanics and all Ive never shot over 200 before this. After the shot the rifle would be a little left from where it started. Maybe I was griping it when I fired not realizing it?

    I was loading the bipod, body relaxed, strong hand loosely gripping the grip, and just lightly squeezing the trigger. I know when I shot the .50 it pretty much went where I want, but the 35# it weighs could have been helping with that.
     
    Been doing some reading and found the Article "Bugholes from Bipod" sounds like I need to stop trying this free recoil stuff, and work on my trigger pull its good for shorter ranges, but it combined with trying to use free recoil is throwing my left and high I believe.
     
    I've had the same problem crop up recently, I eventuall found that I was holding the rifle too loose against my shoulder. I think that it was bouncing off my cheeck, so back end of the stock goes right, pointing the barrel and then the shot to the left during recoil. When I tightened my hold a little it went away.

    The reason I was holding it looser was that it was hot, and with only a t-shirt my heartbeat was making the crosshairs bounce a lot, maybe 1/2" on target at 100yd, so I was holding it off my shoulder to prevent the heartbeat from moving the crosshair, but introduced a new problem.
     
    OP,

    You could have a multitude of errors. Only by calling the shot will you know for sure whether error was produced from rifle movement, sight setting, wind, or from wind as well as rifle movement and sight setting. All any one here can do is speculate. I'd speculate you have not yet learned what's important to good shooting, since you do not know how to analyze the call/strike corollary. Not doggin' ya; but, beginning your shooting experience with a scope and bipod yet with no formal basic marksmanship instruction can lead to self deception. That's to say, even if you know nothing about good shooting you might still think you know how to shoot since it is easy to hit a target at close range with a scope and bipod, where the scope and bipod can serve as a substitute for marksmanship; but, take a target out to mid range, where your angular errors will be unmasked, and you will clearly see that you indeed do not know how to it. Thing is, most novice shooters would still not understand how to correct error just as you have not been able to ascertain the problem. My advice, start over, get a highly qualified coach or mentor to get you off to a good start and/or sign up for a CMP governed M1 Clinic in your area.
     
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    Seem to be pulling left somehow

    Yeah I know what you mean I want some training. I had a guy calling my shots though, and I was trying some stuff I've been reading about and it apparently doesn't work for me.

    I know several long range guys an I've been reading constantly since I left the range, an it sounds like I need to stop trying the free recoil, and do my normal tight against the shoulder hold. Also I'm 6'6 with decent sized hands so it doesn't take much to put too much finger on the trigger.

    I'm not new to shooting just haven't had the chance to safely take it to 600 until recently, but I'm not saying there isn't more things to learn. I'd definitely love to take a class, but I need to build a rifle first haha. I'm thinking of a 6.5 Grendel I have an AR lower just sitting there.

    I still think I was doing good making most of my shots my first day at 600, any missed were by an inch or two and shot at a 10" circle. I'm not missing by feet, and all my hits are on target, but a little high and left.


    sent from the bathroom
     
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    Seem to be pulling left somehow

    I've had the same problem crop up recently, I eventuall found that I was holding the rifle too loose against my shoulder. I think that it was bouncing off my cheeck, so back end of the stock goes right, pointing the barrel and then the shot to the left during recoil. When I tightened my hold a little it went away.

    The reason I was holding it looser was that it was hot, and with only a t-shirt my heartbeat was making the crosshairs bounce a lot, maybe 1/2" on target at 100yd, so I was holding it off my shoulder to prevent the heartbeat from moving the crosshair, but introduced a new problem.

    The more I as people and read I think this is a contributing factor. Guess I'll have to wait till next time to find out


    sent from the bathroom
     
    It took me 2 matches, then 70 rounds of practice to figure that out. Was really aggravating. First time I noticed was at our local big match, SCPRC. Had 10 shots just off the targets, down 100 points, took 5th and easily could have been 1st with only half those shots. I thought my rifle or scope was screwed up. Even cleaned my barrel for the first time in 500 rounds afterward.

    Went to a monthly, dead center, even the cold bore (was clean cold bore at 500+ yards), no wind. Then more than halfway through (warmed up...) it came back. So I went to my local range and started looking for the cause. Sent 30 shots downrange all dead center, then suddenly 1 was about 1 inch left. WTF??? Another shot, back on center. Another few shots, and eventually got another on top of the 1st left shot. Shot a few more, still wondering WTF? and ended up with 20 shots, and two ragged holes with a couple in between.

    So, with only 15 rounds left, decided to think on it for a while, and finally figured out that the difference between was shoulder pressure.

    After that, all 15 went where they were supposed to.

    A coach would help a lot. Problem is, not very many out there + you've got to meet up at the same time and place making for a lot of inconvenience.
     
    I definitely wouldn't turn down a coach...I need to hurry and build a rifle


    sent from the bathroom
     
    Yeah I know what you mean I want some training. I had a guy calling my shots though, and I was trying some stuff I've been reading about and it apparently doesn't work for me.

    I know several long range guys an I've been reading constantly since I left the range, an it sounds like I need to stop trying the free recoil, and do my normal tight against the shoulder hold. Also I'm 6'6 with decent sized hands so it doesn't take much to put too much finger on the trigger.

    I'm not new to shooting just haven't had the chance to safely take it to 600 until recently, but I'm not saying there isn't more things to learn. I'd definitely love to take a class, but I need to build a rifle first haha. I'm thinking of a 6.5 Grendel I have an AR lower just sitting there.

    I still think I was doing good making most of my shots my first day at 600, any missed were by an inch or two and shot at a 10" circle. I'm not missing by feet, and all my hits are on target, but a little high and left.


    sent from the bathroom

    A guy can not call your shots. Only you can call the shot. The call is the target/sight relationship upon the bullet's exit from the bore. For example, if you call the shot right-in-there and the strike is indeed right-in-there it means you properly executed the two firing tasks. If the shot is called right-in- there but the strike is at 9 it may mean you did not correctly counter for wind. If you call the shot at 9 and the strike is at 9 it may mean you moved the rifle, possibly poor trigger control. And so it goes, calling the shot being a good way to analyze results and enhance work in progress.

    To be able to call the shot you must follow through, that's to say, you must command the brain to continue to aim and keep trigger depressed until recoil has subsided. You can develop a sense of properly calling the shot by dry firing. With an absence of recoil you will understand if you moved the rifle while pulling the trigger. Not being able to call the shot suggests not following through and/or maintaining focus on the sight. At any rate, you are attempting, it appears, to learn about good shooting from what some here have to say about it. Going about it this way will thwart success. At the least, I'd suggest you buy a copy of the USAMU's Service Rifle Guide which is available from the CMP. This marksmanship guide covers pretty much everything there is to know about good shooting: principles, position, ballistics, zeroing, analysis, wind and weather effects, range estimation, and more. You may also want to attend this year's Small Arms Firing School presented by the USAMU July 15 through 17 at Camp Perry, Ohio. The fee is only about 45 dollars. I hope you figure it all out you will have more fun with it all as you have a better command of it all.

    BTW, the other poster's problem (aagifford) was about not having consistent control over the rifle. Consistent control is made possible by maintaining a relationship between shooter, gun, & ground shot to shot: non firing hand, grip, butt to shoulder, elbows, and stockweld. With observation of the shooter and grouping assessment the specific inconsistency can be sometimes discerned; and, even if diagnosis is not possible correction can still be made just by concentrating on the fundamentals. Also, forget "free recoil". You need to have control over the rifle that you can sense as being consistent.
     
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    Yup, proved the hard way that free recoil doesn't work for a tactical rifle, that is a benchrest technique.

    In my neck of the woods (southern California) Santa Margarita Gun Club at Camp Pendleton has clinics now and then, I'll look to attend the next one. I had planned to attend one around now then found it was for service rifles and I don't have a service rifle.
     
    Yeah this free recoil crap sucks...


    sent from the bathroom
     
    i'm gonna jump in if y'all don't mind.

    sterling, when you say call the shot, does that include when you know you screw up?

    sometimes, as soon as i pull the trigger, i know i F-ed up. i'll have a funny feeling that i know i threw in a certain direction.
     
    At some point, you will be calling the shot without any thought about doing it. I suspect that you may be sensing now that your aim has been disturbed and thus the feeling that you screwed up.

    The big picture here is that by learning how to appraise results through call/strike corollary and grouping assessment you can make a lot of progress to becoming a very good shot.
    Absent shooter/target analysis, you must concentrate on the fundamentals with conscious effort.
     
    sterling, when you say call the shot, does that include when you know you screw up?

    I'm not Sterling, but yes, you absolutely need to be able to call the bad shots, and you need to be honest about them. If you try to convince yourself that every shot is perfect and that your problems lie elsewhere, you will go nowhere. Shot calling is a skill that you need to consciously develop, but after it's there, it becomes a sub conscious process. I can't pull a trigger on any firearm without my brain snapping a photo of the sights at the instant the shot broke and showing it to me. Comparing this mental photo with where the bullet actually hits(the call/strike corollary that Sterling never stops talking about) is how you start to learn what you did right or wrong.
     
    Few people share ergonomics; which tells me that the issue could be related to how your Buddy's rifles are configured/adjusted for the owner, and how well those adjustment fit your own ergonomic needs. Review LL's vid about fitting the rifle to the shooter. When I was instructing, it was quite apparent that different folks seldom share the same POI's with the same rifle. In my own instance, being 6 1/2ft tall essentially means than no production rifle fits me properly, that refining my rifle ergonomics is an essential part of my shooting discipline, and that few others can shoot my rifles comfortably or easily

    Also, having your Buddy along could have some additional benefit if that Buddy takes some time to watch your aiming eye while you're shooting. If the eye closes (and it pretty much always closes) after the shot is triggered, then things are going as they should. If the eye closes first, then the subconscious mind already knows when the rifle's going off, and it becomes essentially impossible for the conscious mind to prevent some sort of involuntary muscular response in anticipation of the coming recoil. Shooters who shoot with closed aiming eyes are physically incapable of providing a valid shot call.

    And then, there's whether or not the followthrough is actually occurring in the proper manner. The trigger should continue all the way through to full stop, and the head should stay down on the cheekweld long enough for the bullet to be well downrange.

    Lastly, there is the element of doubt. I can't say accurately why this is so, but if you don't have confidence that your abilities are equal to the task, the likelihood is high that you are making a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    Understand that learning is a constant and unending process, whether or not we are conscious of the fact. Unless there is conscious attention to all aspects of shooting, and periodic review of those aspects, there is nothing to prevent the learning of absolutely counterproductive lessons.

    Greg
     
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    IM 6'6 too so the rifle being set up for him could factor in some. I guess I just need to practice more than anything get more consistent, and stop trying new things and stick to the basics(though my pulled shots made a nice grouping lol)
     
    If you are shooting great groups, then you are not pulling, you need to adjust the sight.

    If you are shooting two great groups, one pulled and one not, you are weird. :) This means you are consistently inconsistent. :)
     
    If you are shooting great groups, then you are not pulling, you need to adjust the sight.

    If you are shooting two great groups, one pulled and one not, you are weird. :) This means you are consistently inconsistent. :)

    its me pulling it has to be Im just consistently pulling the same, its hitting right where everyone else aims lol. Just need to stop trying BS I read/hear in videos I think and get back to the basics
     
    If ALL your shots are hitting to the left, you are not pulling them. Your eyes are just funky. :)

    It would be very hard to be so consistently pulling shots to shoot great groups, but pulled.
     
    It is possible to adjust sights so that a shooter with a consistent bad habit can hit the target consistently. It might pay to consider the possibility that the shooter with the problem might not be you, but the owner. I'm not there, and I will never be there; so I can just as easily be as wrong as right about this.

    A lot of factors go into marksmanship and accuracy, and the efforts and responses of the human component are more a matter of what IS than whether it's right or wrong. Forget right and wrong, and concentrate on optimizing what you have. If all roads lead to Rome, then quite a many roads are the right one.

    Greg