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King of 2 Mile Update

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Base of the Rockies
    www.snipershide.com
    I attended yesterday and today at the King of 2 Mile Match in Raton.

    1 Shooter hit 2 Miles on the 5th shot... Derek Rodgers of Team AB
    19511124_10155451721947953_6986662168599256280_n.jpg?oh=4ab723d07ee7540b03f1f0153495d5e9&oe=59...jpg

    I have a ton of footage, and images I was shooting video and pictures all morning
    19601408_10155451606957953_4168134786083642608_n.jpg?oh=639f03039fc5f33d35532661241fa0db&oe=59...jpg

    More to come
    19429890_10155448642132953_7793865454507492838_n.jpg?oh=c16b8bf36cbccdaecd465f0f680a3604&oe=5A...jpg

     
    please keep us updated. we can learn a ton from this kind of unique ELR event.
     
    Amazing.

    Thanks for posting photos. More please.
     
    I'm pretty sure Rodgers was using the 375CT to hit the 2 mile, the majority of the AB crew was using Mitchell's 375 wildcat. There was everything from 338LM improved, 388LM necked up to a 375, 375CT, 375 Snipetacs, 416s, 50s that I can recall. There was at least three 50s in the final 10.

    In the two days of qualifying for a spot in the top 10
    Only 4 shooters hit the 1st shot -16" Coldbore target - 1691 yards
    Only 1 shooter tore up the paint on every target in the course of fire - CB1691, 1543, 1722, 1888, 1953 yards. ---- 375 Snipetac with 361 Flat Lines

    Wind was the game on/off and switching it kept the spotters and shooter working together and made for a good event.


    Cheers
     
    Last edited:
    The score sheet shows 3368 for the last target, not 3520 (2 miles). One other person and I posed the question on the KO2M FB page and this was the reply, "Derek Konosky ... 3368 is the furthest this range was capable of. Last year's "king of 2 miles" competition was much shorter. They continue to look for areas that will allow a longer distance working towards a true 2 miles" So the shooters never even had a chance at a true 2 miles.
     
    Whomever wrote that article needs some help with math and basic facts:

    "All targets on this day were 5 shots each with a time limit of 10 minutes’ total. The shooter had to hit the target in order to advance to the next target, but there was not a limit to the number rounds that could be fired at each target."

    (So which is it)

    "But we are extremely happy to say that 7 out of the top 5 competitors were using our bullets."

    (That's quite a feat!)
     
    Whomever wrote that article needs some help with math and basic facts:

    "All targets on this day were 5 shots each with a time limit of 10 minutes’ total. The shooter had to hit the target in order to advance to the next target, but there was not a limit to the number rounds that could be fired at each target."

    (So which is it)

    "But we are extremely happy to say that 7 out of the top 5 competitors were using our bullets."

    (That's quite a feat!)

    5 out of 3 people have dislexia.
     
    Whomever wrote that article needs some help with math and basic facts:

    "All targets on this day were 5 shots each with a time limit of 10 minutes’ total. The shooter had to hit the target in order to advance to the next target, but there was not a limit to the number rounds that could be fired at each target."

    (So which is it)

    "But we are extremely happy to say that 7 out of the top 5 competitors were using our bullets."

    (That's quite a feat!)

    On Thursday for the Finale you were allowed 15 rounds with a time limit of 10 minutes on 3 targets total. You were able to accumulate scores within the 5 rounds, but if you could not connect on a target you could use your remaining rounds as a mulligan with out score to connect and be able to move onto the next target in order to try for an impact and scores again with a 5 round limit for a round being able to recieve a score. In time you will either run out of rounds or time.

    Cheers
    Oneshot
     
    Some feedback once the dust settled on KO2M 2017. from the KO2M Facebook page

    1-
    This match is like pro's playing against college team's. They cater to certain team's/people. For instance AB was struggling with the
    final target's. Team's were required to follow all rules but exceptions were made to allow AB a advantage in keeping them as winners.
    I recommend you look at this long and hard before shooting in this match. I liked how the wind caller for AB admitted he had all the
    information on the target's the day before it was released to all the other shooters in it. He said it in the AB clinic at the end of day 1. If
    it's not a rigged event then why would other team's not be allowed that information until day 1 when they could be shooting 30 minutes
    later. AB gets the information well in advance. Definitely something to think about. Along with the rules not being enforced for AB. I
    know several other's were told it was immediate disqualification if there were more than 2 spotters. AB had 3+ everytime and nothing
    was done about it.

    2-
    Okay well the 2017 match in Raton NM is over once again. In reality it needs to be renamed the AB show instead of it's current name.
    The AB team had their own camera crew, filming everything they did from start to finish and for those that may not have noticed, even
    had a camera man tapped into the match target cams relaying information and recording the AB shooters while shooting. The AB team
    caught every angle possible.
    The rules were obviously different for the AB team, and many of the other teams were very aware of it.
    Case in point, when another competitor asked Mr. Manners “Hey is that fair to have two rifles on the line like that”? Referring to
    moment when another AB team member was down on the line with the new king while the new king was shooting and the AB team
    member was using the scope on his rifle to walk in the new kings rounds. Mr. Manners replied, “Well no not really but look who it is,
    there not going to say anything”. Yes, wind coaching is allowed but 3/4's of the AB team was in the shooters box/staging area at the
    time when the new king was shooting giving signals and impact adjustments. On several occasions, the match director or the match
    referee would demand observers with spotting scopes preparing for their team, to leave the shooters staging area.
    Another point, in the 2017 rules it clearly stated that when a team is on the line shooting, no one from that team can be in the target
    camera viewing area where the monitors are. AB team members were seen countless times in this area observing target hit's and
    misses. Another rule states that the shooter is responsible for making all adjustments to his/her rifle once they begin engaging targets.
    Not the case, the AB team lead was viewed making scope adjustments to the several AB scopes while they were shooting. As were
    other teams also viewed doing the same thing, again nothing was said. Also the 2017 rules stated that if a shooter has a malfunction of
    the same type two times during his/her course of fire, that shooter is disqualified. An AB team member had this very thing happen, two
    fail to fire type one malfunctions, click no bang due to poor quality control during reloading and apparently was allowed to continue.
    The afternoon of the first day, right at half of the shooters had shot. The AB team offered up a free clinic in the eagles nest for those
    that wished to attend. Several thought it was kind of odd that the AB wind coach stated during his segment “As soon as I got the target
    distances last night, I went to work”. How did the the AB team wind coach have the target distances the night before everyone else did.
    In previous years of this match, the target distances and course of fire were not reveled until the morning of the first day at the
    shooters brief. Mmmm???
    Congratulations are flying all over social media for the AB team. Why? It's obvious the match was for them and the other
    teams/competitors were there to make it seem as more of a big deal match. Keep in mind shooters and teams travel great distances,
    thousands of miles at their own expense to compete in this match. It was also observed by several participants that the AB team had
    way more time to get their shooters set up than other teams did. From just observing, this match was a f-class elr match, not a tactical
    match. Do away with the f-class bi-pods and the bench rest rear bags and let's see how the scores are next year. By the way, it was a
    great target presentation and the cold bore target was brilliant indeed!!!
    Oh, and the cherry on the cake, you're going to love this one. The match referee, the same person responsible for picking target
    locations a few months just prior to the match as well as hanging/setting the targets for the match came in third place. Wow!!!
    really??? So do you think he had time to game the course of fire just a little bit. The top three all walked away with thousands of dollars
    in really nice prizes with this years king walking away with nearly $10,000.00 in cash, trips and prizes.
    Solutions
    One: enforce the rules written and don't change them several times because someone doesn't like it.
    Two: anyone associated with the design and/or control of the match can not shoot the match for score.
    Three: don't show favors to any team for any reason.
    Four: all team members are required to wear the same team shirt for identification purposes.
    Five: if a team has five or more team members only four shooters can participate in the match.
    Six: no more than two team members of the same team in the the shooters box/staging area.
    Seven: two spotters may assist wind calling for their team shooter only with a spotting scope.
    Eight: target cam/referee monitoring area should be sealed from all accept match officials.
    Nine: no one is allowed to tap into radio frequency cameras viewing the targets at any time during the match.
    Ten: make it fair for everyone competing and always refer to solution one!
    Eleven: any one team may only have two team members in the finals.
    If this match isn't made fair for everyone, attendance will surely decline and that's not the intent. Now ask yourself this. Why would an
    individual or a team want to drive 10, 15, 25 or even 30 hours if there is noticeable and blatant issues in regards to the rules of the
    match, match officials ethics and over all fairness of competition.
     
    Some feedback once the dust settled on KO2M 2017. from the KO2M Facebook page

    1-
    This match is like pro's playing against college team's. They cater to certain team's/people. For instance AB was struggling with the
    final target's. Team's were required to follow all rules but exceptions were made to allow AB a advantage in keeping them as winners.
    I recommend you look at this long and hard before shooting in this match. I liked how the wind caller for AB admitted he had all the
    information on the target's the day before it was released to all the other shooters in it. He said it in the AB clinic at the end of day 1. If
    it's not a rigged event then why would other team's not be allowed that information until day 1 when they could be shooting 30 minutes
    later. AB gets the information well in advance. Definitely something to think about. Along with the rules not being enforced for AB. I
    know several other's were told it was immediate disqualification if there were more than 2 spotters. AB had 3+ everytime and nothing
    was done about it.

    2-
    Okay well the 2017 match in Raton NM is over once again. In reality it needs to be renamed the AB show instead of it's current name.
    The AB team had their own camera crew, filming everything they did from start to finish and for those that may not have noticed, even
    had a camera man tapped into the match target cams relaying information and recording the AB shooters while shooting. The AB team
    caught every angle possible.
    The rules were obviously different for the AB team, and many of the other teams were very aware of it.
    Case in point, when another competitor asked Mr. Manners “Hey is that fair to have two rifles on the line like that”? Referring to
    moment when another AB team member was down on the line with the new king while the new king was shooting and the AB team
    member was using the scope on his rifle to walk in the new kings rounds. Mr. Manners replied, “Well no not really but look who it is,
    there not going to say anything”. Yes, wind coaching is allowed but 3/4's of the AB team was in the shooters box/staging area at the
    time when the new king was shooting giving signals and impact adjustments. On several occasions, the match director or the match
    referee would demand observers with spotting scopes preparing for their team, to leave the shooters staging area.
    Another point, in the 2017 rules it clearly stated that when a team is on the line shooting, no one from that team can be in the target
    camera viewing area where the monitors are. AB team members were seen countless times in this area observing target hit's and
    misses. Another rule states that the shooter is responsible for making all adjustments to his/her rifle once they begin engaging targets.
    Not the case, the AB team lead was viewed making scope adjustments to the several AB scopes while they were shooting. As were
    other teams also viewed doing the same thing, again nothing was said. Also the 2017 rules stated that if a shooter has a malfunction of
    the same type two times during his/her course of fire, that shooter is disqualified. An AB team member had this very thing happen, two
    fail to fire type one malfunctions, click no bang due to poor quality control during reloading and apparently was allowed to continue.
    The afternoon of the first day, right at half of the shooters had shot. The AB team offered up a free clinic in the eagles nest for those
    that wished to attend. Several thought it was kind of odd that the AB wind coach stated during his segment “As soon as I got the target
    distances last night, I went to work”. How did the the AB team wind coach have the target distances the night before everyone else did.
    In previous years of this match, the target distances and course of fire were not reveled until the morning of the first day at the
    shooters brief. Mmmm???
    Congratulations are flying all over social media for the AB team. Why? It's obvious the match was for them and the other
    teams/competitors were there to make it seem as more of a big deal match. Keep in mind shooters and teams travel great distances,
    thousands of miles at their own expense to compete in this match. It was also observed by several participants that the AB team had
    way more time to get their shooters set up than other teams did. From just observing, this match was a f-class elr match, not a tactical
    match. Do away with the f-class bi-pods and the bench rest rear bags and let's see how the scores are next year. By the way, it was a
    great target presentation and the cold bore target was brilliant indeed!!!
    Oh, and the cherry on the cake, you're going to love this one. The match referee, the same person responsible for picking target
    locations a few months just prior to the match as well as hanging/setting the targets for the match came in third place. Wow!!!
    really??? So do you think he had time to game the course of fire just a little bit. The top three all walked away with thousands of dollars
    in really nice prizes with this years king walking away with nearly $10,000.00 in cash, trips and prizes.
    Solutions
    One: enforce the rules written and don't change them several times because someone doesn't like it.
    Two: anyone associated with the design and/or control of the match can not shoot the match for score.
    Three: don't show favors to any team for any reason.
    Four: all team members are required to wear the same team shirt for identification purposes.
    Five: if a team has five or more team members only four shooters can participate in the match.
    Six: no more than two team members of the same team in the the shooters box/staging area.
    Seven: two spotters may assist wind calling for their team shooter only with a spotting scope.
    Eight: target cam/referee monitoring area should be sealed from all accept match officials.
    Nine: no one is allowed to tap into radio frequency cameras viewing the targets at any time during the match.
    Ten: make it fair for everyone competing and always refer to solution one!
    Eleven: any one team may only have two team members in the finals.
    If this match isn't made fair for everyone, attendance will surely decline and that's not the intent. Now ask yourself this. Why would an
    individual or a team want to drive 10, 15, 25 or even 30 hours if there is noticeable and blatant issues in regards to the rules of the
    match, match officials ethics and over all fairness of competition.

    ive always laughed at how hard the AB team ducks the PRS/field style events...hard to sway those in your favor when its just you, your gear, and the target...
     
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but it doesn't surprise me. This particular group seems to want to "shape" the narrative on everything ELR (including what it even is) to their advantage.
     
    Being there I will say this.

    The AB Team worked as a Team vs a collection of individuals... They were prepared, I saw teams struggle with spotting, struggle with calls and struggle with knowing what dope they had on the rifle. It's hard to defend the complaints but many others were just not prepared. The target distances were posted for all in the Eagle Nest, Team AB just got them, others ignored that information. Everyone had access to the same information.

    Yes, I feel Eduardo was a bit weak when it came to Team AB, however, they were the best prepared, they worked as a team like they do as part of the USA F/TR team

    I don't think AB dodges the PRS, I believe Bryan shot one and came in Second.. not sure if you can call that a dodge.

    The points are valid, but not exactly on target 100%... this is a very small event, shot one at a time, so it is slow. But they are more prototyping and testing vs actually competing
     
    Being there I will say this.

    The AB Team worked as a Team vs a collection of individuals... They were prepared, I saw teams struggle with spotting, struggle with calls and struggle with knowing what dope they had on the rifle. It's hard to defend the complaints but many others were just not prepared. The target distances were posted for all in the Eagle Nest, Team AB just got them, others ignored that information. Everyone had access to the same information.

    Yes, I feel Eduardo was a bit weak when it came to Team AB, however, they were the best prepared, they worked as a team like they do as part of the USA F/TR team

    I don't think AB dodges the PRS, I believe Bryan shot one and came in Second.. not sure if you can call that a dodge.

    The points are valid, but not exactly on target 100%... this is a very small event, shot one at a time, so it is slow. But they are more prototyping and testing vs actually competing

    What's the angle of fire on an event like this?
     
    There needs to be two classes.

    Space Gun Class so the sponsored guys can shoot the 50# wheeled stuff that was built/paid for by someone other than the shooter.

    Common man class for the unsponsored.

    Do that with bolt face or shooting system weight restrictions (or both).

    They've created a showboat event, with hand selected shooters....look at the registration process.

    JeffVn/Warner shoot in Tonapah is an example of what right looks like in the promotion/planning process. If that shoot format/execution goes well that'll hurt some feelings when/if that becomes ELRs marque Super Bowl event.

    There's no BSing the ELR community on this. Build a fair match & people will come shoot. Hand select shooters from a secret registration process, allow certain teams to "pre game" the shooting event...are not principles that are going to do ELR any good.

    Congrats to the shooters pushing the envelope during the match.
     
    The fact the registration is so low says a lot, and when you tell them others are doing it bigger and better they just get offended as if nobody can pull this off.

    The problem is, like with Walt shooting the event, you had to rappel to service the targets and very few people are qualified to do this right. Hauling big ass plates down the side of the mountain is not easy.

    The entire 1000 yard line is empty, there is only one spot to shoot, so they are making do with next to no range officers. They have one spot to manage that is it. Every time you talk to them it's all about the lack of resources or how they want it to look at a specific way.

    I am not sure what the registration problems are, seems if you wanted to shoot it you could without much drama.

    They are not using Whittington Center to its full capability and that is because they don't want to loose control at the top. At least it acts that way.

    While Team AB pushed the rules to the limit, others were not unfairly being restricted, and I did see Team AB get stopped from trying to take others shots beyond the limits.

    It's more an exhibition vs a competition, to begin with. it's pretty administrative in terms of running an actual event. In short, it's not like we know other matches to be run.
     
    ELR would get a big boost from a known name in PRS putting on a match open to the Public.

    The issues with KO1.9M are going hurt other efforts to obtain sponsorship for other ELR matches. Sponsors need to see a return on their investment, and Customers and Sponsors alike will see right through the issues at KO1.9M.

    The ironic thing about this whole deal is this was a promotional event for ABM and their products/services. Do you think the desired message to potential customers that ABM wanted to send was sent? You're not going to "like" your way to success in this segment.
     
    Some of the complaints were sour grapes, I watched teams wrongly spot themselves out of view and off the target. The communication was lacking from every standpoint. Being outclasses and complaining is not the same.

    They addressed shooting beyond 2k as if they were shooting 1k on paper, and that approach does not work.

    From my vantage point the sponsors there were excited about what happened.

    Like seriously complaining about Paul spotting with his rifle ? Why is that ... he shot just before Derek, they were both squatted on the mat together and all Paul did, was to move over and use his rifle to spot. Any other team was free too but most felt the spotting scope standing behind was better.

    The PRS has a public ELR Event, they just had it, Q Ranch in WY. You can sign up and register. About 100 shooters attended but they do not shoot as far as the Ko2M. PRS put on better events, but the K2oM is pushing the envelope. Consider Josh Kunz shot a LA 308 with Warner Tool 198s and came in the Top 25 of an ELR Event. You can do something similar here focus on the shorter range targets to score higher. Then move on after...

    Nobody was stopping anyone from putting in the same amount of effort as AB, just nobody by Barrett maybe did that.
     
    Nice to see the envelope getting pushed. My pockets aren't deep enough to play that far though.

    Wasn't so long ago a few of us were loading the 308 Win with High BC projos and shooting to distances from 1K to 1 mile, and getting nothing but shit for trying.
     
    ive always laughed at how hard the AB team ducks the PRS/field style events...hard to sway those in your favor when its just you, your gear, and the target...

    I don't think that's true at all. The AB team has a background in F-class and NRA bullseye shooting.

    Those guys that have crossed over and shoot PRS do pretty well. It's two different games though.
     
    ELR would get a big boost from a known name in PRS putting on a match open to the Public.

    The issues with KO1.9M are going hurt other efforts to obtain sponsorship for other ELR matches. Sponsors need to see a return on their investment, and Customers and Sponsors alike will see right through the issues at KO1.9M.

    The ironic thing about this whole deal is this was a promotional event for ABM and their products/services. Do you think the desired message to potential customers that ABM wanted to send was sent? You're not going to "like" your way to success in this segment.

    ;) an honest and accurate description of what we saw at KO2M. For the good of the KO2M I sincerely hope next year the organizers enforce the rules on all shooters so we don't have to deal again with this "AB-takes-all" perception that in the end is just nothing more than misguided approach. I respect their teamwork, their effort and resources put on the line, but I've been talking to some of the shooters and most feel the same way. Frank said it's just an exhibition. Well, if that's the case, why don't they advertise it as such? By the way, I fully concur with that statement.
     
    It's interesting how you read the comments on many of the various web sites and listen to the pros and cons in reference to the KO2M, bad news seem to spread faster and spin off then any of the good.

    One thing that always seems to stand out is how folks rant about how an event was managed or who had an advantage or how something was screwed up and unfair - and most of the folks bitching were not even at the event, this all falls back on what they heard or assumed. One of my pet peeves are folks that pass along info that is of no validation versus hands on and many who are trying to better themselves fall pry to the hearsay.

    Yes the KO2M had a few hiccups, there aren't many high pressure events that don't experience a bobble to two.
    There was nothing astronomically special about the rifles in fact they all had to weigh under 50# and this would lean more towards the heavy barreled 50s and actually having to lay prone using a bi-pod and a rear bag made it more interesting as far as the challenge. Hell one individual had to take his muzzle break off of a 50 cal necked down to a 375 and take a beating pulling the trigger because he was just over the weight limit - never heard any bitching from him, he manned up and did what he had to.

    Folks bitching that Walter had some kind of advantage just because he busted his ass trying to make this shoot possible with the hellish task of hanging heavy steel on the mountain side - bullshit, every day is a new day with the environments and wind yet alone he had to focus on making sure things were running smoothly and keeping the firing range safe while others just had to focus on their objectives hoping to place a bullet on the spot. For the record I don't know him so theres no favoritism.

    I'm just glad folks had a opportunity to shoot some long range targets at distance and on a mountain side that made it interesting.
    Every shooter had the opportunity to study the target grid, weather, winds, mirage and google earth.

    After the two qualifying days they were already taking notes on what needed to be addressed it was good to see that they were serious about it and taking notes while talking with the shooters who had opinions or ideas to better the program on the little issues that were surfacing, keep in mind this is only the third year of this event and it is only getting more critical and percision with the progression in equipment and technology.

    Off hand some of the issues that are being addressed that I'm aware.
    The scoring in progression with the targets and the rewarding of actully hitting or walking the targets all the way out.
    Time management in the staging area for everyone from the first shooter to the last.
    Crowd control within shooting area be it the teams or bystanders

    There's probably more surfacing as time goes on

    The push for multiple classes is only a push for more winners - the event is a ELR on top of ELR the target size is fair everyone knows what the goal is for distance and work off of that.

    Prior to three years ago there was not a lot to offer in a event as of the KO2M
    So what has happened in last three years - a huge benefit to the ELR community, look at the advancement in accuracy pushing to the distances that most folks said couldn't be done. Bullet manufacturers, stocks, optics, advancements in the ability to aim farther and accurate. Bottom line - technology.

    The spin off of this more locations and opportunitys to shoot with managed ELR events like the KO2M you have Texas, Nevada, theres another brewing in the north west somewhere its only going to get better. California has been running their ULR events

    Many folks are upset with the over powering effect that the AB team had, maybe it was all the team shirts I don't know. Yes they pushed the limits known and unknown to them but it is their job to push for very bit of technology possible to make a hit. The harder they work on it as well as all of us is what opens doors to new ideas and practices to make folks shoot accurately beyond their expectations.

    For the most part everyone there seemed to have a great time and took something of experience or knowledge back home with them. I was just a average joe country kid wearing a tea shirt from the flat swamp land and trees of WI.

    We had as much opportunity to prepare for this like anyone else, in short

    We did the best we could here in WI. With limited distance, winters and wet springs
    # took a trip to Colorado on our way down and hooked up with some folks that allowed us a chance to check our equipment and drops the best we could
    # arrived at the event site and confirmed our zeros on a authorized rifle range at the NRA center
    # spent hours studying the mountain side and watching the effects of the wind and mirage
    We had a game plan and had a blast
    One of us ended up finishing in the top 5 with a rifle he built himself as well as making his own bullets in a small shop
    Another had the honor of being the only person to mess the paint up on all the qualifier targets including the Coldbore

    We need the manufacturers to be involved- this is the only way of technology getting better
    We need folks like AB and others to test and push the envelope

    Good or bad things will only get better as this grows hell I remember not so long ago we were all called bullshitters for pushing the 338s well beyond a 1000 yards

    So I hope more events grow off of this and we can continue pushing the limits with repetitive accuracy.

    Cheers
    Jeff
     
    Just an exhibition is my term, they will never look at it that way.

    Standing by, watching, recording, it was more an "exhibition" to me vs what I have come to know a match. That can certainly be debated.

    I read a lot of the complaints, if I felt Walt or Team AB was doing something outside the rules, I would certainly speak up. But I believe they all played within the rules. Sure it was the AB Show, but in many respects, it was a lesson, a teaching moment. This is how a team works, these are guys understanding their equipment and not up there getting lost on the scope. This was guys calling adjustments in a succinct fashion, not talking about 3 different adjustment values for a single correction.

    ELR is certainly taking off, which is why everyone is watching this and so many are being hypercritical. This is supposed to be the "King of 2 Mile" so they want to see it come off as a first rate event. Especially after having 3 years under their belt. They appreciate the effort, the skill, and the technology but the stories travel too fast. Everyone is watching and everyone is looking at this to set the standard up front.
     
    Good or bad things will only get better as this grows hell I remember not so long ago we were all called bullshitters for pushing the 338s well beyond a 1000 yards

    Cheers
    Jeff

    Kidding? Yes, that was about 100 years ago! However I still don't feel we are ready to call a "success" getting just ONE HIT at 3368y. Id say they are not even pushing any envelope at all unless you have repeteability. To my liking and understanding, if only 1 out of 10 shooters, was able to call a hit, Id say it's way more related to luck than proper equipment and technique or skills. If the repeatibilty rate is below 60/70% we have nothing in our hands but thin air and the help of the Gods. Some will say, this is the start, but I can hardly see this happening any time soon. We simply don't have any particular tehnology to make that happen. The final score shows what we already know, repeteability is around 2500.
     
    Who? Not around here they don't...

    I was referring to Highpower shooters in general; not AB team specifically (I have no idea who is on the AB team).

    Off the top of my head,

    Troy Lawton always seems to shoot well. He was CMP Service rifle champ a few years ago.

    3 of the AMU guys last year were drawn from their SR team. They all made the Finale.

    I think Bryan shot one and finished 3rd or 4th.

    David Tubb shoots PRS. Not really sure how well he does.



     
    Bryan Litz shot a PRS match and came in second his first time out. I don't recall which one it was, but know he did.

    As noted they are F Class Shooters, not PRS types, but it doesn't mean they can't just don't
     
    Who? Not around here they don't...

    Green got 6th at the finale, and he's a high power / service rifle shooter. Pace got 2nd in the tactical class, also a service rifle shooter. Cleland has won a PRS match or two I believe, also on their service rifle team. My second match ever (and unfortunately last until I have more time) at CCC I got 3rd, a few points off of a sponsored pro, and I only shoot high power / sling stuff. PRS is a fun game, but by no means any more (or less) challenging than high power, f class, etc in my opinion. Good shooters are good shooters, with practice they will learn to win.
     
    Green got 6th at the finale, and he's a high power / service rifle shooter. Pace got 2nd in the tactical class, also a service rifle shooter. Cleland has won a PRS match or two I believe, also on their service rifle team. My second match ever (and unfortunately last until I have more time) at CCC I got 3rd, a few points off of a sponsored pro, and I only shoot high power / sling stuff. PRS is a fun game, but by no means any more (or less) challenging than high power, f class, etc in my opinion. Good shooters are good shooters, with practice they will learn to win.

    i said team AB...i didnt mention anyone else, or any style of competition...so all irrelevant...

    when frank? 5+ yrs ago or???
     
    I was referring to Highpower shooters in general; not AB team specifically (I have no idea who is on the AB team).

    Off the top of my head,

    Troy Lawton always seems to shoot well. He was CMP Service rifle champ a few years ago.

    3 of the AMU guys last year were drawn from their SR team. They all made the Finale.

    I think Bryan shot one and finished 3rd or 4th.

    David Tubb shoots PRS. Not really sure how well he does.

    thats cool, but i didnt say anything about highpower shooters...i know Tubb shoots, not on team AB...

    the point was, theres a style out there growing the fastest, becoming the most competitive, etc....and they aint in it...instead theyre high fiving on some small side matches where they bring in a full crew against a handful of regular joes...
     
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    thats cool, but i didnt say anything about highpower shooters...i know Tubb shoots, not on team AB...

    the point was, theres a style out there growing the fastest, becoming the most competitive, etc....and they aint in it...instead theyre high fiving on some small side matches where they bring in a full crew against a handful of regular joes...

    What's your point? They don't want to go shoot PRS because they don't find it interesting. You're implying that they don't shoot PRS because they are afraid of bruising their egos which I don't think is fair.

    These are all guys that have background in long range competitive shooting at an elite level, and you are faulting them for choosing to not compete in your brand of competition. Stacking sandbags and shooting off barricades isn't exactly hard. If you can rise to the top of one shooting sport, you can do well in another.

    AB/US F Class team went to the KO2M to do as well as it could possibly be done and that's what it looks like they did.
     
    The AB Team worked as a Team vs a collection of individuals... They were prepared, I saw teams struggle with spotting, struggle with calls and struggle with knowing what dope they had on the rifle.

    I guess that makes sense considering it is their business. Sure, they have the passion too, but if your product is ballistics software and you chose to enter, you'd want to approach the KO2M competitively and build an effective team. Looking at the scores, it wasn't a squeaker of a win.

     
    Frank, it was good seeing you again at the KO2M.

    One thing I will never understand is why there is such a division for some guys between shooting disciplines. I'm interested in all of them and follow all of them because I love shooting. And for the record, I am very much interested in shooting PRS, just haven't been able to yet since I began putting all of my resources into F-class with the US team in 2015 and will be seeing that through the World championships in August. Once that is done I will begin putting resources towards PRS. Only so much time and money to go around, and contrary to popular belief, I don't have unlimited resources and still spend a ton of money doing this stuff while still going to college, which isn't cheap by the way. But yes, I do have sponsors that help me out some, not unlike many PRS shooters/teams.

    The notion that we have unlimited resources compared to everyone else seems kind of crazy to me when you also have teams fielded by Cutting Edge, Barrett, Manners and the like, who are all large entities and put a lot of resources into their equipment as well.

    I would like to see someone try gaming or setting a NRA or ICFRA F-Class match up in their favor, that just simply isn't going to happen and isn't something done in that whole culture of shooting. You play by the rules and that's that.

    I think we will continue to see the rules for these styles of matches evolve, I think there have been some very valid rule changes proposed, some of which have gone into effect already for the Tonopah 2 Mile match, such as limiting a wind coach to 2 shooters (and them self obviously). That is a reasonable and logical revision to make. I think Jeff NV and the Warners are going to have a great event and I look forward to shooting it.
     
    Frank, it was good seeing you again at the KO2M.

    One thing I will never understand is why there is such a division for some guys between shooting disciplines. I'm interested in all of them and follow all of them because I love shooting. And for the record, I am very much interested in shooting PRS, just haven't been able to yet since I began putting all of my resources into F-class with the US team in 2015 and will be seeing that through the World championships in August. Once that is done I will begin putting resources towards PRS. Only so much time and money to go around, and contrary to popular belief, I don't have unlimited resources and still spend a ton of money doing this stuff while still going to college, which isn't cheap by the way. But yes, I do have sponsors that help me out some, not unlike many PRS shooters/teams.

    The notion that we have unlimited resources compared to everyone else seems kind of crazy to me when you also have teams fielded by Cutting Edge, Barrett, Manners and the like, who are all large entities and put a lot of resources into their equipment as well.

    I would like to see someone try gaming or setting a NRA or ICFRA F-Class match up in their favor, that just simply isn't going to happen and isn't something done in that whole culture of shooting. You play by the rules and that's that.

    I think we will continue to see the rules for these styles of matches evolve, I think there have been some very valid rule changes proposed, some of which have gone into effect already for the Tonopah 2 Mile match, such as limiting a wind coach to 2 shooters (and them self obviously). That is a reasonable and logical revision to make. I think Jeff NV and the Warners are going to have a great event and I look forward to shooting it.


    Mitch- well said. AB is organized and has prepared more than the teams you mentioned above. I wholeheartedly agree ....there is no way to game the match or have a unfair advantage due to the ever changing conditions. You either hit the target or not. Continued good luck. Chris
     
    WI put a guy in the top 5! Garrett shooting the 900gr+ solids out of his 50bmg.



    Thanks Geno!

    Oneshot summarized the event from our crew well.

    The KO2M was an experimental event for me. I've been building the rifle and bullet for a year with intentions of going the distance. We proved the system worked when we shot out to 3040 yards on the way out to New Mexico. The rifle is a pleasure to shoot with some serious performance. People have been saying for a long time the 50 is not capable of playing in this game. Needless to say I think it is.. The results of the KO2M show it. The first day I had good wind that cooperated, during the finals I had a tail wind that really messed with vertical, just above and below the first target. My goal for this year was to get into the finals, taking 5th place out of the long list of people was icing on the cake. Now that I know the system works and works well I will be changing a few things and refining some dope for the next go around. Field Firing Systems, my Vector, and two very good spotters on my team really make the system a whole.

    As for accuracy of my bullets another friend and I stayed for the FCSA world championships. Kirk shooting the other rifle with the heavy bullets won hunter class in score, I took fifth in score and shot a 3.75" group at 1000 during competition. That's 0.760" larger than the current world record in hunter class and was the second smallest group of the weekend. I'm happy with the results.

    For those complaining about various teams having yardage numbers early... I had yardage numbers a couple hours before the AB team showed up on Monday. No one said you couldn't sit at the line and laser them yourself. We spent about four hours studying terrain and wind that day from the line. Surprisingly there were not many teams at the line Monday prior to competition. Isn't recon 9/10 of making the shot??

    As for whoever said Walter has home court advantage.... He was hanging steel Monday when we got there, there was no practice prior. Cheating is not in his code of ethics.


    Until next time.

    Garrett.
     
    As mentioned not quite two miles but a long ways nevertheless. Are there any restrictions on how much safe space is needed beyond the last target. I've been told we restrict .338 and .50 because we barely have 10 miles beyond the last berm. I have no idea if that is true or not.
     
    Kidding? Yes, that was about 100 years ago! However I still don't feel we are ready to call a "success" getting just ONE HIT at 3368y. Id say they are not even pushing any envelope at all unless you have repeteability. To my liking and understanding, if only 1 out of 10 shooters, was able to call a hit, Id say it's way more related to luck than proper equipment and technique or skills. If the repeatibilty rate is below 60/70% we have nothing in our hands but thin air and the help of the Gods. Some will say, this is the start, but I can hardly see this happening any time soon. We simply don't have any particular tehnology to make that happen. The final score shows what we already know, repeteability is around 2500.

    LastShot300,

    You can't really judge the state of the industry on just one event subject to the conditions of a particular day (and I know it goes both ways), but the reality is that the rifles are consistent at these distances. For example, at the Worlds longest shot challenge in Texas I went 3 for 5 on a 36" square plate at 3520 yards, or 2.00 miles, but the conditions were definitely better than what we saw at the KO2M. At our team practice, Bryan, Derek, and myself all got on the 36" square plate in our 5 shots at 3613 yards, in very mountainous terrain with winds reaching 17 mph and having to account for well over 20 MOA of wind drift. We're talking about 1 moa targets here, and our misses were right there not off by much. I also did some extreme distance shooting with Chase Stroud in Texas before the WLSC, and he will attest to the consistency of my rifle past 2 miles. For as few shots as we've actually taken at 2+ miles, the consistency of the rifles and ammo is there, its about managing or dealing with the conditions now, which is no small task and is why you are seeing the low hit percentages we are.

    Anyway, I agree that the percentages are no where near what we want to see, but the equipment is there and these shots are actually pretty high percentage in good conditions, its now more about refining how we manage atmospherics and conditions. These aren't shots in the dark, every time we miss we are able to gather data and learn more about wind effects because we know the equipment is consistent.
     

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    LastShot300,

    You can't really judge the state of the industry on just one event subject to the conditions of a particular day (and I know it goes both ways), but the reality is that the rifles are consistent at these distances. For example, at the Worlds longest shot challenge in Texas I went 3 for 5 on a 36" square plate at 3520 yards, or 2.00 miles, but the conditions were definitely better than what we saw at the KO2M. At our team practice, Bryan, Derek, and myself all got on the 36" square plate in our 5 shots at 3613 yards, in very mountainous terrain with winds reaching 17 mph and having to account for well over 20 MOA of wind drift. We're talking about 1 moa targets here, and our misses were right there not off by much. I also did some extreme distance shooting with Chase Stroud in Texas before the WLSC, and he will attest to the consistency of my rifle past 2 miles. For as few shots as we've actually taken at 2+ miles, the consistency of the rifles and ammo is there, its about managing or dealing with the conditions now, which is no small task and is why you are seeing the low hit percentages we are.

    Anyway, I agree that the percentages are no where near what we want to see, but the equipment is there and these shots are actually pretty high percentage in good conditions, its now more about refining how we manage atmospherics and conditions. These aren't shots in the dark, every time we miss we are able to gather data and learn more about wind effects because we know the equipment is consistent.

    Mitch,

    Let me first congratulate you for your great feat at Texas. I'm curious have you ran any numbers with the WEZ tool before/after the long shots? Of course wind is the biggest enemy at ELR distances,but I really wonder about the other variables like the ones in Bryan's tool. If you say the rifle/ammo/optics is capable of repeating the shots, then you got something in your hands!
     
    Mitch,

    Let me first congratulate you for your great feat at Texas. I'm curious have you ran any numbers with the WEZ tool before/after the long shots? Of course wind is the biggest enemy at ELR distances,but I really wonder about the other variables like the ones in Bryan's tool. If you say the rifle/ammo/optics is capable of repeating the shots, then you got something in your hands!

    Thank you, I can't take all of the credit though, Chase Stroud is an awesome spotter. That is a great event and a great venue BTW, if anyone is looking to go to a match, I highly recommend that one.

    Yes wind is the real kicker here and is why the vast majority of shots are missed, no contest there. Obviously the left/right component is huge, but tailwinds and headwinds can make over a minute difference in elevation at that range, and if you throw terrain into the mix, now you have huge vertical components to the wind that are actually pretty challenging to account for, even if you can read it spot and plug it into a solver.

    When I say the rifle and ammo is consistent at these ranges, I am in no way implying that I will make first round hits more often then not. One thing to remember when using the WEZ tool, and you are probably already aware of this, is that it is calculating your hit percentage for your first round only. Usually your second shot is based on a correction from seeing where the first landed and so your hit percentage goes way up since you have eliminated the uncertainty in many of the variables.

    On the occasions where I have been out in good very calm conditions, I have had no trouble keeping most (and by most I mean about 80%) with in 1 MOA of vertical spread at these distances, and in some cases much better, the other 20% are almost all accounted for in velocity anomalies. I know a lot of guys have different interpretations of what consistency or repeatability really is, but all things considered I think we are getting pretty consistent and repeatable results.

    And obviously the reality is that this is still pretty young and there is a ton of room for improvement and development. I think more and more guys are starting to come away from the "luck" perspective and start looking at solutions for how to keep increasing the probability of hits.
     
    I think more and more guys are starting to come away from the "luck" perspective and start looking at solutions for how to keep increasing the probability of hits.

    If we want to get better we need to take the 'luck' factor out of the game and hit the target !
     
    It's not repeatable until more than 50% of every single shot taken hits the target. EVERY SINGLE SHOT. All practice sessions, exhibitions, matches. Every shot. "That day when he wind was real calm" is NOT representative of repeatability. It is the anomaly which demonstrates the lack of repeatability.