Sidearms & Scatterguns Legal question- AR 15 Pistol- In multiple calibers

[hafejd30]

I don’t have time to do much searching so thought I’d just post this question,

I’m building a 300 blackout pistol

Is it legal to attach a 10.5”
5.56 upper to the same lower?

The lower is registered as a pistol, 300 blackout, 8” barrel, 25” overall.

Im sure the answer is out there, feel free to post a link if needed

Thank you

 

[Landon4]

I wouldn’t see why not being that’s its still pistol length, usually when I get my lowers they put on the transfer papers other so I can build it as either a rifle or pistol

 

[...]

a pistol is still a pistol even if you change the caliber......literally no different than the .22lr conversions for 1911s and such.

 

[hafejd30]

Thank you guys

 

[strikeeagle1]

You can swap out various SBR uppers on the registered lower, however the lawmen expect you to keep in your immediate posession the original upper assembly associated with the NFA registered receiver so that IF ever audited / or challenged, by an ATF agent (not just any LEO whom lack the Federal authority to do so) you can present the originally configured NFA item to the BATFE agent (agency). To be completely correct with BATFE etiquette one is also expected to send a courtesy letter of notification to the BATFE as to any alternative SBR / SBS configuration you have in your posession for a particular registered lower assembly. Recall from Form 4......"Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request. " (ATF Form 4 (5320.4)

Remember it's not like a drivers license or insurance card presentation requirement to a LEO during a roadside examination....it is a Tax Stamp document, not a license!...."made available" can be complied with by affirming "i will send you a fax / email copy of the NFA document to their Regional Offce, (or they can follow you home to where the documents are located) when I get home or whatever". No different than if a State Trooper asked you for a copy of your 2018 IRS-1040 return on the side of the road, you don't carry it with you and even if you did they have no authority to request it. One good reason to keep photo copies on your iPhone! to mitigate the hassle; where Federal law theory meets practicality!

 

[...]

You can swap out various SBR uppers on the registered lower, however the lawmen expect you to keep in your immediate posession the original upper assembly associated with the NFA registered receiver so that IF ever audited / or challenged, by an ATF agent (not just any LEO whom lack the Federal authority to do so) you can present the originally configured NFA item to the BATFE agent (agency). To be completely correct with BATFE etiquette one is also expected to send a courtesy letter of notification to the BATFE as to any alternative SBR / SBS configuration you have in your posession for a particular registered lower assembly. Recall from Form 4......"Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request. " (ATF Form 4 (5320.4)

Remember it's not like a drivers license or insurance card presentation requirement to a LEO during a roadside examination....it is a Tax Stamp document, not a license!...."made available" can be complied with by affirming "i will send you a fax / email copy of the NFA document to their Regional Offce, (or they can follow you home to where the documents are located) when I get home or whatever". No different than if a State Trooper asked you for a copy of your 2018 IRS-1040 return on the side of the road, you don't carry it with you and even if you did they have no authority to request it. One good reason to keep photo copies on your iPhone! to mitigate the hassle; where Federal law theory meets practicality!

He has a pistol, not an SBR

 

[Landon4]

Yeah if a lower is registered as a rifle your not supposed to install a short barrel, same goes as if it’s registered as a pistol, an sbr is a totally different animal which doesn’t sound like what he’s doing

 

[bschneiderheinze]

As long as you don’t have an extra rifle lower in the house.

 

[hafejd30]

I have 2 other AR 15 rifles- Paired with 16” barreled uppers.

This is a registered pistol lower. Not a SBR not an NFA item.

 

[GA_medic]

Registered pistols can be converted to rifles without being an SBR. Rifles cannot be converted to pistols. A pistol with a slightly longer than stock barrel is still a pistol if it has a brace on it and not a stock. Holding an AR pistol to your shoulder while shooting it "converts" it into an SBR. Certain modifications will also border on AOW weapons which need to be registered just as an SBR does.

 

[hafejd30]

Registered pistols can be converted to rifles without being an SBR. Rifles cannot be converted to pistols. A pistol with a slightly longer than stock barrel is still a pistol if it has a brace on it and not a stock. Holding an AR pistol to your shoulder while shooting it "converts" it into an SBR. Certain modifications will also border on AOW weapons which need to be registered just as an SBR does.

This will be a pistol AR lower with brace. 300 blackout upper. Law tactical folding adapter. Overall Legth of about 22” without the Law adapter installed to the end of the muzzle. It will be suppressed but the suppressor doesn’t count to the Length.

I’m in Michigan if that helps. Our measurements are taken at the shortest operable Legth of the rifle/pistol. However our pistols have to stay under 26”.

Also ATF ruled that shouldering an unmodified brace, designed as a brace, is not illegal. Therefore shouldering this pistol will not make it a SBR according to ATF. If you can correct me otherwise I’m all ears.

New to the AR pistol game. Own 3 AR rifles

 

[Rocketvapor]

The lower is registered as a pistol, 300 blackout, 8” barrel, 25” overall.

That seems long for an 8" barrel. Is that with the Brace collapsed or extended.
It gets a little muddy going over 26" with a pistol, including states laws on AOW's,
and I won't comment there.
I have a 10.5" under 26" AR pistol.

 

[GA_medic]

That may be an update to the ATF regulations that I'm not aware of. Something else to take into consideration is dont put a vertical grip or bipod on it.

 

[hafejd30]

That seems long for an 8" barrel. Is that with the Brace collapsed or extended.
It gets a little muddy going over 26" with a pistol, including states laws on AOW's,
and I won't comment there.
I have a 10.5" under 26" AR pistol.

Posted a pic below.

I correct myself. It’s about 22” currently. Should be about 23.5” ish with the Law adapter

Keeping in mind the flash hider is removable

 

[Rocketvapor]

Your pistol is about 22" long.

Including the folding adapter,
and a 10.5" you should OKish

There must be a reason you can find 10.4", 10.5" and 10.6" barrels ?

 

[hafejd30]

That may be an update to the ATF regulations that I'm not aware of. Something else to take into consideration is dont put a vertical grip or bipod on it.

Right I’m aware of that law. But thank you for reminding me

 

[hafejd30]

Your pistol is about 22" long.


With a 10.5" you should OKish

Yup is see that now. Not sure where I came up with the 25” I posted earlier. Apparently my brain was in neutral. I did register the OAL at 24” on my paperwork. Trying to include the Law Folder into the equation

 

[hafejd30]

My whole reason for asking is I really want to run my Saker ASR that is coming in August on multiple setups. My thought is I can just carry the two uppers with this lower and utilize both. I suppose running both sub and supers in 300 blackout would be better.

 

[strikeeagle1]

He has a pistol, not an SBR

Never mind! Details, details.

 

[...]

That seems long for an 8" barrel. Is that with the Brace collapsed or extended.
It gets a little muddy going over 26" with a pistol, including states laws on AOW's,
and I won't comment there.
I have a 10.5" under 26" AR pistol.

If you have a “pistol” that is over 26” long... it is legally a “ firearm”... not an AOW

With your 26” long firearm, it is perfectly legal to mount a VFG

And it is perfectly legal to mount a bipod on a pistol of any length

Regarding pistol braces, you can legally shoulder a brace.... it does not change it into an SBR

 

[hafejd30]

If you have a “pistol” that is over 26” long... it is legally a “ firearm”... not an AOW

With your 26” long firearm, it is perfectly legal to mount a VFG

And it is perfectly legal to mount a bipod on a pistol of any length

Regarding pistol braces, you can legally shoulder a brace.... it does not change it into an SBR

I think what he is referring to is the state law. You are correct on the fed portion. I do live in Michigan and they do a few things different. First, they measure a firearm from its shortest operating Legth. Second, our laws require that a pistol be kept under 26”. In other words I can’t just attach my 16” upper to this lower. The feds say I can, the state says I can’t. Again if you have legit info to prove that wrong I’m all ears

 

[AMGtuned]

I thought the "shouldering" aspect was only if "unintentional"?

 

[hafejd30]

I thought the "shouldering" aspect was only if "unintentional"?

ATF Clarifies Ruling on Pistol Stabilizing Braces | Sig Sauer

Sig Sauer ATF Clarifies Ruling on Pistol Stabilizing Braces. World renowned and the choice for many of the premier global military, law enforcement and commercial users.

www.sigsauer.com

 

[AMGtuned]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1CLqahnsXCvOPgSIHeyxpa

[/URL]

 

[AMGtuned]

I get it, but it still seems fuzzy to me. I wont take the chance.

 

[DannC]

I cannot find the revised ATF reinterpatation of the legality of using a stablelizing brace fired from the shoulder. IIRC correctly about two to three months ago I read an artical in TTAB guns that it is now illegal as it modified the intent an would be considered a SBR. Anyone read the same artical.

 

[AMGtuned]

I cannot find the revised ATF reinterpatation of the legality of using a stablelizing brace fired from the shoulder. IIRC correctly about two to three months ago I read an artical in TTAB guns that it is now illegal as it modified the intent an would be considered a SBR. Anyone read the same artical.

I think that is the letter I posted.

 

[hafejd30]

I think that is the letter I posted.

I couldn’t get the link you have to work. In other words are they changing it back to the origional ruling that you can’t shoulder the brace?

 

[AMGtuned]

 

[AMGtuned]

It appears to me as though shouldering the brace "modifies" its intent as a "stabilizing brace" . I'm no lawyer, but as I said before, I wouldnt even chance it. Use it as a brace, or do the form 1 and get you an SBR stamp.

 

[hafejd30]

It certainly appears your correct on that. In that case I may as well SBR this

 

[hafejd30]

So let me ask another question. In MI where because it’s under 26” this does have to be registered as a pistol regardless. So does that mean I can register as SBR, install a butt stock. And carry under my ccw due to it still being a “pistol” according to MI

 

[AMGtuned]

I'm in ME; and here, with CCP, you can roll with loaded rifles in your vehicle as long as you're not "hunting". However, it is ILLEGAL TO CONCEAL A RIFLE. AR pistol, on the other hand, is a pistol, and therefore can be concealed. Again: I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice; just my interpretation of the law as it is written, and relayed information from my local Sheriff's department

 

[hafejd30]

I was a LEO for several years here in MI. But don’t know all the laws especially the nfa side cause they keep changing. Been out of the game for several years now. I know we can’t have loaded rifles in vehicles. Honestly if I can’t carry this like a pistol I’ll just sell it. My AR 15 556 can sit in a case separate from the ammo same as a SBR can

 

[AMGtuned]

Build it as a pistol, add a folder, and carry it. I just dont think I'd get caught shouldering it. Unless one were to "fall over" while maintaining cover, and the brace contacted ones shoulder.

 

[DannC]

Link did not work for me either so I posted not knowing you had the entire letter. Thanks

 

[AMGtuned]

That same letter is available on the ATF site as well. I've been doing a little research lately, concerning some potential new projects

 

[hafejd30]

That same letter is available on the ATF site as well. I've been doing a little research lately, concerning some potential new projects

Thank you for the insight. I did buy a streamlight light/green laser combo for it. Maybe the laser will be bright enough I’ll never need to bring to the shoulder to hit anyways lol

 

[hafejd30]

I honestly wouldn’t mind paying the $200 stamp fee to SBR it. I just want to carry it loaded and ready in my vehicle like my glock etc. I’ll have to check into that and see how Michigan would handle that

 

[AMGtuned]

Only trying to help. Personally, for HD, I have a couple mutts that dislike disturbances. But the 1100 with 00 REALLY doesn't like them. Semi shotguns really dont recoil that bad. Add some bright light, voila. Home intruders should feel lucky if they only get the dogs. But with 6000psi chomping at some limbs, I cant imagine either is comfortable

 

[hafejd30]

My dog unfortunately may bring you a toy but my house gun is a Rem 870. The tactical/police style. You’ll meet 7 rounds of “you just f’d up” when you come through the door.

The 300 is a truck gun. Self defense, maybe hunting etc. Range gun to