Marines are an independent service. Just because they report to the Secretary of the Navy doesn't make them a part of the Navy or subordinate to it.
Stop talking about things you know nothing of.
- Thread starter Givemem14
- Start date
Stop talking about things you know nothing of.
Eats, Shoots & Leaves - Wikipedia
Recommend Reading.
If you didn't serve don't know. Marines are still under the Navy. So they are still not fully independent. I served with enough of them to ask. So unlike you I didn't have enough time to eat my weight in Blue bell, hagen daz, and blue bunny in your moms basement to try and make a living as in internet troll.
No one gives a shit what some 5 year non-rate thinks he knows.........go get me some relative bearing grease and batteries for the sound powered phones.
I'm sure @pmclaine will be delighted to know he was a part of the Navy
Oh yea @M8541Reaper too.........
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Ssssssoooooo you got caught. And called out. Wawa so sad. Im sure ill ask him the same thing. Isn't like i didn't serve with a seaman" and yes we did call them that to their faces" and two marines and that joke didn't come up.
See ya couch troll.
+1 to the ignore list.
And I'd stay for the banter amongst those w/ 3-digit IQ...but I'm not sure I can bare it any further.
And I'd stay for the banter amongst those w/ 3-digit IQ...but I'm not sure I can bare it any further.
Wait a minute......you claim to be a Marine and you think the Corps is a part of the Navy? No Marine I ever served with would say that. EVER.
I think you're a liar.
Never said i was a Marine special ed i said i served with them. I was Army, and they switched branches ,and you haven't hung around Marines. Also ask your Marine buddies if they are recent or active ask them their favorite snack/ mre
LOL GTFO troll
Well, I guess he answered his own question. Everybody hates him because he's impolite and an asshole. Post 26 and a member since Thursday. Anyone want to wager if he makes it through the weekend? Actually, he seems like kind of a familiar asshole, doesn't he? I don't think being banned here will be his first.
...and yes the Marines are a Department of the Navy.....the Men's Department ........
Being a partner service to the Navy is part of the mystique.....a remnant of the time when the world was much bigger and places were "exotic" or "foreign".
People were intrigued by the glamour of foreign ports of call.
Now we are just global and you can eat at McDonalds anywhere.
If you haven't had a monkey hand on a stick in Olongapo than you wouldn't understand.
Some of those deep country villes in Afghanistan probably still evidence that long ago big world time......just too bad there was no surf to land in.
The sea is integral to Marine. You should look at the ocean and feel mystery and a need to know....."What's out there? Can I Kill it or Fuck it?".
Being a partner service to the Navy is part of the mystique.....a remnant of the time when the world was much bigger and places were "exotic" or "foreign".
People were intrigued by the glamour of foreign ports of call.
Now we are just global and you can eat at McDonalds anywhere.
If you haven't had a monkey hand on a stick in Olongapo than you wouldn't understand.
Some of those deep country villes in Afghanistan probably still evidence that long ago big world time......just too bad there was no surf to land in.
The sea is integral to Marine. You should look at the ocean and feel mystery and a need to know....."What's out there? Can I Kill it or Fuck it?".
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Why. bbbis the karen troll speaking?
Yes impolite for standing up for myself and and asshole for... Oh yeah telling the truth. Yup im an asshole. As for familiarity, makes you wonder maybe someone else told ya the real truth about something and you didn't like it. Hummm
The question above wasn't posted to start a fight it was posted for friendly discussion, but that is a stretch
OP as to your question.
There is no hate for the M1A......its just that time has moved on and there is so much better out there.
Its been left behind except for us weepy sentamentalists.
and everyone knows the last general issue riflemans rifle was the Springfield 03.
Although last week I watched a shooter with a Garand bearing a 1943 receiver with a 1964 rebuild barrel crushing a human silhouette at 680 yards repeatedly, 30-06 hate delivered by a good shooter, no optics needed just skills.
1903s, Garands, M1A's none are ever obsolete and as we the tax payers have paid for them every tax payer should be issued one with a ready rack installed on their wall and subject to monthly if not more frequent requirements to shoot government issued ammo for practice.
There is no hate for the M1A......its just that time has moved on and there is so much better out there.
Its been left behind except for us weepy sentamentalists.
and everyone knows the last general issue riflemans rifle was the Springfield 03.
Although last week I watched a shooter with a Garand bearing a 1943 receiver with a 1964 rebuild barrel crushing a human silhouette at 680 yards repeatedly, 30-06 hate delivered by a good shooter, no optics needed just skills.
1903s, Garands, M1A's none are ever obsolete and as we the tax payers have paid for them every tax payer should be issued one with a ready rack installed on their wall and subject to monthly if not more frequent requirements to shoot government issued ammo for practice.
So a relative soft draft. Ok that maybe a good thing. As for the m14/m1A yes i do agree that they are old. Yet the FN FAL has its own following as well. So dose the ar10s as well as the first Styer Aug. I was wanting to get their side of the story since i actually have my own M14/M1a i personally love it. Didn't get to carry it while I served
wow this phone is spastic. Anyway I wanted to hear the roomers or reasons why these are, "dead platforms".
Personally Im in support of a hard draft.
The country avoided unecessary war, politicians were accountable for sending troops to war and wars were fought with the necessary force to win when everyone in the country had skin in the game. The guys with high draft numbers wanted the shit over post haste and ensured max force was used to ensure it was so.
People being armed is not a "soft draft" its a personal responsibility.
Rather than ask everyone to massage your love for your personal favorite firearm post us up some pictures of you beating your chest over a fantastic range session.
You dont even have to shoot sub 3MOA, just rock that wood and iron, showing us you have skin in the game.
Postal match....me vs you and anyone else that wants to play.
Start a thread - "Me short stroking my M1A" and show us your effort with 20 rounds of .30 caliber death.
A platform is something to support a statue or a political party's list of lies.
The M1A is not dead. Its just that there are other semi .308s that will shoot equal or smaller groups without unitizing shit, obscene bedding procedures, welding on lugs than tearing it apart and doing it all over again yearly to keep it in good order.
My M1A is a standard. I expect no better than 4 MOA out of it yet with match ammo it shoots much better.
Give me 147 grain GI ammo, rain, dirt, and shit it will still hit smaller than the span of a typical COM.
Given the option to have to pack a combat load of .308 or .223 Ill take .223 with the exception I get to rethink that if Im someplace flat as a pancake or mountainous and the locals ask "What is a tree?"
Lol on the sentimental ill get that sooner or later.
Don't have any good pics of targets at the moment. Due to range time and working. Yet you answered my question earlier and I forgot to thank you for it. So thanks.
As i said before im just wanting to compare notes and have a civil discourse. Wanting to point out the weakness in the m14/m1A vs other weapons such as the ar 10 and fal.
Why cause maybe there is some technological issue with it that i did not know before. Not saying i would sell it but just to know. Similar to how according to older popular opinion the fn fal should have been called the fn fail. Due to its inaccuracy at range. Yet on a bit more digging this was only true due to the full auto feature. Something that the original m14 also had an issue with.
Don't have any good pics of targets at the moment. Due to range time and working. Yet you answered my question earlier and I forgot to thank you for it. So thanks.
As i said before im just wanting to compare notes and have a civil discourse. Wanting to point out the weakness in the m14/m1A vs other weapons such as the ar 10 and fal.
Why cause maybe there is some technological issue with it that i did not know before. Not saying i would sell it but just to know. Similar to how according to older popular opinion the fn fal should have been called the fn fail. Due to its inaccuracy at range. Yet on a bit more digging this was only true due to the full auto feature. Something that the original m14 also had an issue with.
Hi,
The biggest weakness you are failing to consider/point out is MUSCLE Memory......
The "AR10" systems have the exact same function/features/placement/etc as the AR15 systems so it is the natural choice if wanting a larger bullet.
Muscle memory trumps all when discussing a pure combat soldier weapon system. And that is why the M1A/M14 is dead amongst the standard issue shit.
In 1996 we pretty much dumped the Crane built M1As on the USN Shooting Team and went to 7.7 twist mouse guns for the pure accuracy and usability across all distances of the Service Rifle matches.
Sincerely,
Theis
The biggest weakness you are failing to consider/point out is MUSCLE Memory......
The "AR10" systems have the exact same function/features/placement/etc as the AR15 systems so it is the natural choice if wanting a larger bullet.
Muscle memory trumps all when discussing a pure combat soldier weapon system. And that is why the M1A/M14 is dead amongst the standard issue shit.
In 1996 we pretty much dumped the Crane built M1As on the USN Shooting Team and went to 7.7 twist mouse guns for the pure accuracy and usability across all distances of the Service Rifle matches.
Sincerely,
Theis
Dont forget you are also on "Snipers Hide".
People here tend to be more interested in stacking bullets than creating a pattern.
M14 Forums will probably find your question well received.
The echo chamber there will be akin to some one posting a "Why I hate Communists" thread in the Bear Pit here.
There are lots of great rifles out there with different capabilities suited to different roles.
None are suited to every role.
Most important thing is to pick YOUR gear for YOUR goals and become the best you can be using it.
Again thank you for the comment. This is what i am asking for.
I do agree that today and yes even then in 96 the m16 service riffle manuel of arms was already muscle memory. But and this is just me asking. Do you or anyone have experience with the fal? Id like to hear some points for that riffle. I would ask about the Aug but considering the ban in the 80s and that they are now just making it state side unless there is someone who is outside of the states would like to share on it.
I do agree that today and yes even then in 96 the m16 service riffle manuel of arms was already muscle memory. But and this is just me asking. Do you or anyone have experience with the fal? Id like to hear some points for that riffle. I would ask about the Aug but considering the ban in the 80s and that they are now just making it state side unless there is someone who is outside of the states would like to share on it.
I know about those echo chambers and avoid them. As you said there are a lot of great guns out there im just wanting info on others to point out the weakness is said m14/m1a as one post said. A major thing is muscle memory. Someone also said good glass with an ar10 will produce tighter groups. As well as muscle memory. Those are welcomed comments. Also for me yes ive made my choice, but if someone else asks particularly a new or newish shooter, why they may. Want any of the riffles listed above I would like to be able to give them some pointers. The more unbiased the better.
What are the new shooters goals?
Mosins get little respect in the rifle accuracy world but if my goal was to protect hearth and home, maybe take a deer, it would be entirely capable of doing that.
Are there better options, certainly, but will it do those basic tasks required - yes.
Your post above touches on the bigger reasons why there are better choices.
The M1A is also a rifle that requires skills to maintain or access to supplies/parts that are not as readily available.
I dont have those skills with time my good shooting M1A will degrade in its abilities.....the biggest weakness being my wood stock.
You wont suffer that issue in your chasis perhaps but gas pistons and springs will wear and unless you have spares on hand they wont be as readily available to replace as the clone of the current service rifle.
Lately a lot of people have been posting on here posts that basically make a vague statement than ask us to support their point.
what would be better is if they outlined a complete defense of their point with supporting data and challenged us to knock them off their foundation.
Much better starting positive looking for negative than the other way around.
Mosins get little respect in the rifle accuracy world but if my goal was to protect hearth and home, maybe take a deer, it would be entirely capable of doing that.
Are there better options, certainly, but will it do those basic tasks required - yes.
Your post above touches on the bigger reasons why there are better choices.
The M1A is also a rifle that requires skills to maintain or access to supplies/parts that are not as readily available.
I dont have those skills with time my good shooting M1A will degrade in its abilities.....the biggest weakness being my wood stock.
You wont suffer that issue in your chasis perhaps but gas pistons and springs will wear and unless you have spares on hand they wont be as readily available to replace as the clone of the current service rifle.
Lately a lot of people have been posting on here posts that basically make a vague statement than ask us to support their point.
what would be better is if they outlined a complete defense of their point with supporting data and challenged us to knock them off their foundation.
Much better starting positive looking for negative than the other way around.
This thread is about becoming a dead horse but Im enjoying it because I actually love the fruits of homeboy John Garands loins.......crazy fucking canuck created WWIIs bestest battle implement and a skating rink in his living room.
The FAL stood a good chance of being our chosen service rifle but not being developed in our armory system of the time politics and pride would not allow that to be so.
Thanks again.
Yes taking in the new shooters goals is a major point.
Ive heard mixed things on the Mosins . Ive never shot one, knew a guy who had one, and the guy who owned it, loved it. So there is some bias in that. I learned on a lee enfield so there is some bias in that as well. Thus why im not asking for feelings in that. Yes i know the m14/m1a has more than a few moving parts that can wear out over time as well as needing special tools. Yet could that be said for the fal? Or the Aug? Or the fill in the blank! Or is there something else? So data wise im not too sure how to compile that for discussion. Yet very helpful thought thank you.
Yes taking in the new shooters goals is a major point.
Ive heard mixed things on the Mosins . Ive never shot one, knew a guy who had one, and the guy who owned it, loved it. So there is some bias in that. I learned on a lee enfield so there is some bias in that as well. Thus why im not asking for feelings in that. Yes i know the m14/m1a has more than a few moving parts that can wear out over time as well as needing special tools. Yet could that be said for the fal? Or the Aug? Or the fill in the blank! Or is there something else? So data wise im not too sure how to compile that for discussion. Yet very helpful thought thank you.
Ok thank you. So political development issues, anything else?
All the guns you mention are piston guns. I don't see much difference in any.
Being an American none will have readily available parts and for new shooters the physics of a piston are harder to learn than a hot jet of gas shitting into your bolt carrier group.
I never said it was.
It was to use as a base line. But in the way of strengths. Id say it lends itself a bit more to longer armed shooter due to its length. Yes all the riffles above do that too. Yet just from the isreali fal ive held i cant get a fully good grip. Around it, due to the gas piston placement partially because of finger length.
Yes this is a con to people but not so much for me. Its weight. No i did not get issued this when deployed. I wish i did. So ive never fully had to lug it up a mountain. If you know someplace i could do that state side and not have the cops show up im all ears with bells and whistles on. But it weight helps mitigate recoil and helps for stabilization when in kneeling. Whereas with an m4 I tend to wobble. Yes I know that it is shooter body mechanics but my body dose not do well with kneeling. Using the weight of the riffle it tends to drive my support hand down into my knee thus mitigating the wobble. When it was in the old body it tended to jump around. Yes the polymer body did lighten it up but kind of made it hard to control.
Next is basic internals. Yes the trigger set is a beast but really other than that its not the most complex thing in the world. Yes I pulled mine apart. Put it back together. Hence the new body. Yet internally it is very simplistic in the overall picture of the riffle. Yes i know the scar h only has 3 main parts for takedown and this has more, yet it is still very simple. Could they have made it easier to clean. Probably, but im not on the design team.
Next is shooting i have not been able to take it out to great distances. Max is 100 yrds for now but with the weight it is for me at least very controllable yes even using gi 168 grain groupings are ok probably at about a half dollar or two once sighted in. Most of that is due to shooter error.
Now did I have issues with the thing. Yes not saying I didn't. Recoil and sighting were issues. Plus it dose not like lacquered ammo. Those are my experiences, and my body mechanics, not anyone else's. This is why I used it as a basis. I don't think any gun is gods gift to mankind, they are all still machines. Now here is the rubb. The M14/m1a was designed to take 4 different guns and role the into one. The BAR, M1 Garand, the Thompson, and the 30 carbine. As has been stated the woodstock was very commonplace and easier for hunters and most civilians to learn due to the fact that the M16 family had not been widespread. So for its time it was natural and easy on body mechanics. The military did press it into service and began standardizing it. The Ar 10 had lost to the m14 in trails yet part of this was due to the military not wanting it. Same thing for the m16, due to the wiz kids Kennedy's cabinet we got the m16. So it was taken out of service due to political pressure. Not failing of the weapon itself. Yes it went through production hell but was still functional. This is why I asked because today we say it was a bad idea. Yet in Vietnam service members hated the m16 more due to the lack of info for maintenance and not chrome lining the chamber. Cause it seemed that on paper and in use the m14 did preform exactly as it was supposed to. That is why I asked if others had compared it to different guns. To see what could come out of it. Maybe there was a major flaw in the mechanisms that no one talks about. Could things have been done better, sure like not needing a bloody tuning fork to take apart the gas system. Or glass bedding or warping of luggs which i didn't know about this is why I asked. Yes its a gun with the shortest service lifespan, but on what failing? As history told us it was on politics not so much the riffles themselves. Or was there a mechanical issue then the politics covered it up. That's why i asked. Have I heald a Fal, yes, have i held an Aug, yes have i shot either of them, no. Have any of you guys maybe. So that's why asked.
The production of the M14 was its own demise.
TRW did such a good job with supply and quality that when bean counter McNamara asked "Why do we have an armory system?" He had an example why we didnt need it.
The M14 went against the inertia created by the Germans in WWII. They introduced Kurz rifle ammunition and the idea of the assault gun, an MG operating system that allowed a soldier to become a buzz saw and long eared helmets.
The first was resisted by legacy and only compromised on with the .308, the second became the M60 and in the 80s when enough time had passed and people were to stupid to notice the similarity we got the last.
LeMay that had more to do with adopting the M16 than anybody, he of the big bomb and the only one to use it, likely realized the weakness of the armory system and the value of privatized, dispersed, arms manufacturing.
Everyone recognized the cost of milling steel receivers and the MP44 was the answer to get away from that. The AK was intended to initially be stamped but until the figured it out it was milled steel with waste weighing more than the finished receiver. MP44 were even week with a tendency to bend at the receiver/barrel.
We compromised with easy to machine, structurally sound, aluminum billets.
If you are using the M14 as your base line rifle than thats great. There are better but there are a lot more that are worse. It is a quality rifle and even today its iron sights are some of the best out there.
There is a lot to like......Im going to go shoot mine now.
TRW did such a good job with supply and quality that when bean counter McNamara asked "Why do we have an armory system?" He had an example why we didnt need it.
The M14 went against the inertia created by the Germans in WWII. They introduced Kurz rifle ammunition and the idea of the assault gun, an MG operating system that allowed a soldier to become a buzz saw and long eared helmets.
The first was resisted by legacy and only compromised on with the .308, the second became the M60 and in the 80s when enough time had passed and people were to stupid to notice the similarity we got the last.
LeMay that had more to do with adopting the M16 than anybody, he of the big bomb and the only one to use it, likely realized the weakness of the armory system and the value of privatized, dispersed, arms manufacturing.
Everyone recognized the cost of milling steel receivers and the MP44 was the answer to get away from that. The AK was intended to initially be stamped but until the figured it out it was milled steel with waste weighing more than the finished receiver. MP44 were even week with a tendency to bend at the receiver/barrel.
We compromised with easy to machine, structurally sound, aluminum billets.
If you are using the M14 as your base line rifle than thats great. There are better but there are a lot more that are worse. It is a quality rifle and even today its iron sights are some of the best out there.
There is a lot to like......Im going to go shoot mine now.
AR10 is gas tube, now a days you can get it in gas piston, but Im a believer that less moving parts helps accuracy.
An AR10 bolt/carrier is a beast why add to the objects in motion issue with a short stroke piston.?
You can argue though for a "battle rifle" a piston has some positive attributes.
Im not up to speed on the issues with rapid firing M4s initially having a heat stroke at the worst of times but perhaps a piston is an answer to that problem (or a fix for a problem that doesnt exist).
The USMC fires a piston rifle now with accuracy reported to be better than the M4.
I think they pulled a fast one getting their new rifle.
Get it into the system to fill a limited function than once you have an NSN order one for everybody.
The move to put a can on every rifle might also favor piston over DI.
I dont know. Ask the smart guys.
To both replys
Thank you very much. For both comments i didn't know about the mp44 issues. I had thought the ar 10 was gas tubed but yeah it can be a piston depending on the system and length. The new one is the Iar 27 i believe its an hk 416 with a heavy barrel.
Thank you very much. For both comments i didn't know about the mp44 issues. I had thought the ar 10 was gas tubed but yeah it can be a piston depending on the system and length. The new one is the Iar 27 i believe its an hk 416 with a heavy barrel.
If I hated you I wouldnt have shot my last box of M852 to humor you.....
![P8179603[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179603-1-jpg.7400266/ "P8179603[1].JPG")
Sweetness......I know the ten round box screws the look but Im only single feeding. Top off a FAL or AR10 without dropping the mag - stripper clips for the win!
![P8179612[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179612-1-jpg.7400271/ "P8179612[1].JPG")
A bayonet lug because it was intended we also stab shit with our rifles.......
![P8179613[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179613-1-jpg.7400272/ "P8179613[1].JPG")
Parts of this M1A were officially deemed Acceptable......
![P8179614[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179614-1-jpg.7400273/ "P8179614[1].JPG")
Mike Tyson references this as "The biddness end..."
![P8179615[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179615-1-jpg.7400274/ "P8179615[1].JPG")
Dropped two....
![P8179616[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179616-1-jpg.7400275/ "P8179616[1].JPG")
The real reason M1As suck? They dont have 1/2 MOA sights in GI config. No matter how hard I tried I didnt have the balls to hold enough left and a skooch high to clean.......
![P8179617[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8179617-1-jpg.7400276/ "P8179617[1].JPG")
Sweetness......I know the ten round box screws the look but Im only single feeding. Top off a FAL or AR10 without dropping the mag - stripper clips for the win!
A bayonet lug because it was intended we also stab shit with our rifles.......
Parts of this M1A were officially deemed Acceptable......
Mike Tyson references this as "The biddness end..."
Dropped two....
The real reason M1As suck? They dont have 1/2 MOA sights in GI config. No matter how hard I tried I didnt have the balls to hold enough left and a skooch high to clean.......
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More contemporary design eye candy before I erase my SD card....yesterdays effort with a .223 M40.
![P8169599[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8169599-1-jpg.7400282/ "P8169599[1].JPG")
Playing with a tall target, no adjustment mil dot holds only....
with the capped turrets Im trying to nail down zero at 9X for close in shooting, 5 mils and under, than doubling the mil reticle to 10 mils by going to 4.5X or so...
![P8169601[1].JPG](https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/p8169601-1-jpg.7400288/ "P8169601[1].JPG")
Its a challenge but should be able to hit plus 1 MOA targets out to 800 yards or so.....
Playing with a tall target, no adjustment mil dot holds only....
with the capped turrets Im trying to nail down zero at 9X for close in shooting, 5 mils and under, than doubling the mil reticle to 10 mils by going to 4.5X or so...
Its a challenge but should be able to hit plus 1 MOA targets out to 800 yards or so.....
Unless you go National Match sights.
