Help with high ES

[IdahoSpud]

I am once again stuck. I mixed up SD and ES and thought I was on the right track but now I'm not so sure. I finally bought a Magnetospeed instead of a cheap pro chrono.

.223 Lapua brass, 75 grn Hornady HPBT, Varget, shot out of a Tikka t3x.

Brass is on it's second firing. I bumped the shoulder back .002/.003 and trimmed brass OAL to within .001 of each other, and seated the bullet to max mag length.

I am attempting to use Cortinas method, and thought I had a good powder charge with a decent SD, but then realized the ES is still really high and I don't know why.


22.5 grn (SD 15.4, ES 32)
2658
2681
2664
2654
2690

23 grn (SD 25.5, ES 67)
2709
2722
2776
2732
2765

23.3 grn (SD 28.4, ES 64)
2769
2833
2807
2774
2770

23.5 grn (SD13.8, ES 36)
2788
2801
2792
2765
2778

23.6 grn ( SD 11.3, ES 22)
2831
2828
2847
2849
2853

23.7 grn (SD 23.6, ES 55)
2805
2860
2818
2800
2820

23.9 (SD 14.6, ES 34)
2827
2828
2848
2861
2849


23.6 grn looked the best so I went back and did 0.1 grn up and down, and it was worse.


Any ideas why my ES is so high? Should I start playing with seating depth at 23.6, or would that be considered unstable since it's 0.1 grn close in either direction to horrible? 22.5 produced a group where they were all touching (except one) but I should avoid falling for that "trap" with a high ES right?

Thanks

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Are you preloading the bipod EVERY time? Energy will be lost to “seating” the rifle in your shoulder.

that’s been my experience.

 

[OREGUN]

How are you measuring your powder?
What are you doing about neck tension?

 

[Brettmparker1]

lot of unknowns here. what scale, what dies, powder lot could be fucked but that's not likely. do you use mandrel to set neck tension. my best guess is powder charge consistency, because you do have premium components.

 

[IdahoSpud]

No, I'm not preloading the bipod.

RCBS balance beam scale for powder. I'm meticulous with it. If I feel I added a kernel too much I scope some out and trickle it again.

I'm doing nothing about neck tension. Should I be?

RCBS dies. I ran into this same issue when using my Forster comp dies, and with H1000 powder as well.


Is this a neck tension issue? Do I need to go drop a couple hundred bucks on some more stuff?



Am I back to the beginning again

 

[spife7980]

How far away from the lands is max mag length?

 

[OREGUN]

Trying to meter down to .1 is really hard….and if you find that a .1 difference makes the accuracy difference than you are screwed because any changes (temp, powder humidity, cartridge dwell time in a hot chamber, etc) will knock you out of that sweet .1 wide “node”. So, I’d start by trying to find a 2-3 charge weight wide (using charge weights no less than .3 grains difference) that is good and then monkey about with seating depth. And yes, after sizing, run a mandrel through the necks. It doesn’t have to be so big that it does a lot of expanding…just uniforming. If your seated neck diameter is .267 and your sized neck diameter is .265, you would run a mandrel that brings your neck diameter up to .266 before seating, for example (using 6.5 sizes). The neck mandrel is going to improve your SD/ES. The charge weight is more about not going insane chasing a tiny load window.

 

[Brettmparker1]

if your looking for mandrel you can check out 21st century. you can get any size you might need. neck tension improves not only sd/es but makes seating very consistent and will help with accuracy.

 

[Krob95]

No, I'm not preloading the bipod.

RCBS balance beam scale for powder. I'm meticulous with it. If I feel I added a kernel too much I scope some out and trickle it again.

I'm doing nothing about neck tension. Should I be?

RCBS dies. I ran into this same issue when using my Forster comp dies, and with H1000 powder as well.


Is this a neck tension issue? Do I need to go drop a couple hundred bucks on some more stuff?



Am I back to the beginning again

If you are up for it get a expander mandrel from 21st century with like a .222 mandrel. Gives you 2thou tension. It’s like 50 bucks tops I believe for the die and mandrel. And make sure you get some dry lube too for the necks (imperial dry lube works great).

I use a bushing that will slightly undersize the neck when I FL size that way the mandrel will expand all necks to the correct size regardless of the outside diameter of the neck.

You should be able to feel a difference in seating pressure when you seat the bullets. More tension means more pressure to release said bullet when it’s fired which will translate into more speed (if I’m wrong someone will correct me I’m sure). I would also try and step up into at least a chargemaster as well.

Consistent neck tension will make it easier to find a good charge weight since the necks will be consistent. What primers are you using? I’ve noticed my ES/SD is a bit higher with CCI 450’s than it is with BR4’s.

This is 15rounds through my 6BRA with CCI 450’s, 31.4gr varget, 109hybrids using an expander mandrel. Powder thrown on an Autotrickler V3. This is my match load. Shoots 1/2moa for the most part. Sometimes better.

 

[918v]

If he is using FL dies with an expander ball then his neck tension is consistent.

His seating pressure might be a little excessive.

I would try a different primer but realistically you should not be judging a load based on ES if you haven’t finished tuning the powder charge and COAL.

 

[IdahoSpud]

If he is using FL dies with an expander ball then his neck tension is consistent.

His seating pressure might be a little excessive.

I would try a different primer but realistically you should not be judging a load based on ES if you haven’t finished tuning the powder charge and COAL.

Can you please expand on that? I'm using a standard RCBS seating die with the body backed out so it doesn't crimp, and adjusting the seating stem down.

I'm using Winchester small rifle primers. I wish I could try others but that's impossible given the current situation. I go on an ammo/component run every morning and haven't seen primers in 6 months.

I shouldn't worry about my ES right now? What do you mean by "tune a powder charge?' Isn't that what I was doing by going up 0.3 and then 0.1 grains?

 

[Rocketmandb]

ES/SD are driven by a number of different factors. Already you've said you're using an RCBS beam scale. That will do okay, but it won't get you high levels of precision. What is the rest of the reloading process? If you list out process and equipment start to finish, it will help.

Then, as others have mentioned, seating depth plays a significant role. Simply seating to max mag length is arbitrary, and highly unlikely to yield good results. Understanding how far off the lands you are now is important - tuning that setting is critical.

@918v mentions that primers could be an issue. He is also correct in inferring that it's a secondary consideration. My testing with primer consistency has shown a roughly 10-15% impact on SD. Really crappy primers may go higher than that, but again, probably not the key issue.

 

[IdahoSpud]

If you are up for it get a expander mandrel from 21st century with like a .222 mandrel. Gives you 2thou tension. It’s like 50 bucks tops I believe for the die and mandrel. And make sure you get some dry lube too for the necks (imperial dry lube works great).

I use a bushing that will slightly undersize the neck when I FL size that way the mandrel will expand all necks to the correct size regardless of the outside diameter of the neck.

You should be able to feel a difference in seating pressure when you seat the bullets. More tension means more pressure to release said bullet when it’s fired which will translate into more speed (if I’m wrong someone will correct me I’m sure). I would also try and step up into at least a chargemaster as well.

Consistent neck tension will make it easier to find a good charge weight since the necks will be consistent. What primers are you using? I’ve noticed my ES/SD is a bit higher with CCI 450’s than it is with BR4’s.

This is 15rounds through my 6BRA with CCI 450’s, 31.4gr varget, 109hybrids using an expander mandrel. Powder thrown on an Autotrickler V3. This is my match load. Shoots 1/2moa for the most part. Sometimes better.

View attachment 7636063

Do I need one of those doohickeys that measures neck runout and trims it to adjust neck tension or just a mandrel to make them all uniform?


24 ES is your match load?? I thought ES needed to be no more than like 10-15 max or it would suck once you pushed out further?

 

[supercorndogs]

How does it shoot at 600y?

 

[IdahoSpud]

ES/SD are driven by a number of different factors. Already you've said you're using an RCBS beam scale. That will do okay, but it won't get you high levels of precision. What is the rest of the reloading process? If you list out process and equipment start to finish, it will help.

Then, as others have mentioned, seating depth plays a significant role. Simply seating to max mag length is arbitrary, and highly unlikely to yield good results. Understanding how far off the lands you are now is important - tuning that setting is critical.

@918v mentions that primers could be an issue. He is also correct in inferring that it's a secondary consideration. My testing with primer consistency has shown a roughly 10-15% impact on SD. Really crappy primers may go higher than that, but again, probably not the key issue.

Going off of Eric Cortinas videos..."Chasing the lands is stupid, stop overcomplicating reloading" etc. Supposed to work up powder charges until one has a low ES and then tune seating depth for groups.

I measured jam and subtracted from there on another bullet, but it was so far away from mag length I ditched it. No idea where they are now and don't really care if I'm limited my mag length?


Starting with my fire formed brass. Tumble. Decap. Lube with RCBS on tray. Measure with Hornady comparator and bump shoulder back .002/.003. Measure a sample of at least 10 rounds for OAL and cut all brass to lowest one, within .001. Tumble again. Prime all cases. Carefully measure powder load. Seat bullet within .001 of each other using Hornady comparator.

 

[IdahoSpud]

How does it shoot at 600y?

Haven't even gotten that far. See above about process. I'm stuck at find a stable powder charge.I haven't even played with seating depth or groups yet.

 

[CoryT]

ES is far less of an issue than SD and runout. If you have an SD of 10, you can expect an ES of 60 (+/- 3 SD's for 98% of shots) over the course of a few hundred rounds.

If your SD is below 20 you are probably fine. It's more important to find a zone of charges that shoot to the same elevation over a spread of .3-.4 grains. I suggest looking at the OCW (Optimal Charge Weight - Dan Newberry) website to understand what you are trying to do.

 

[IdahoSpud]

ES is far less of an issue than SD and runout. If you have an SD of 10, you can expect an ES of 60 (+/- 3 SD's for 98% of shots) over the course of a few hundred rounds.

If your SD is below 20 you are probably fine. It's more important to find a zone of charges that shoot to the same elevation over a spread of .3-.4 grains. I suggest looking at the OCW (Optimal Charge Weight - Dan Newberry) website to understand what you are trying to do.

So then (looking at my data) if I test 23.4 and have an SD below 20 my load at 23.5 if probably good to go, as I would have at least a 0.3 grain spread to keep SD below 20?

 

[b2lee]

Do I need one of those doohickeys that measures neck runout and trims it to adjust neck tension or just a mandrel to make them all uniform?


24 ES is your match load?? I thought ES needed to be no more than like 10-15 max or it would suck once you pushed out further?

Holding an ES of 10-15 max will costs you thousands of dollars in equipment and more time out of your life than you may be willing to give up. A few of us have ES that low....but again....thousands of dollars.....and yes...it does show up when I push past 2000 yards.

My guess is neck tension. Step 1. Throw the decapping pin/expander ball in the trash....size without it...then mandrel with a seperate die....but before that....Anneal.

If you have the powder close...within a few kernels...and the brass has been annealed with the same malleability...and they are shoulder bumped 2 thou....and you achieve a close enough consistent release of the bullet with neck tension.....and a proper seal against the chamber with the brass by the correct pressure....your SD/ES will fall by half.

Once you get your bullet leaving the barrel at the same speed....then you can mess with seating depth to get the harmonic timing right so you can shrink your group size on target.

Enjoy your journey.....it never ends....

 

[IdahoSpud]

Holding an ES of 10-15 max will costs you thousands of dollars in equipment and more time out of your life than you may be willing to give up. A few of us have ES that low....but again....thousands of dollars.....and yes...it does show up when I push past 2000 yards.

My guess is neck tension. Step 1. Throw the decapping pin/expander ball in the trash....size without it...then mandrel with a seperate die....but before that....Anneal.

If you have the powder close...within a few kernels...and the brass has been annealed with the same malleability...and they are shoulder bumped 2 thou....and you achieve a close enough consistent release of the bullet with neck tension.....and a proper seal against the chamber with the brass by the correct pressure....your SD/ES will fall by half.

Once you get your bullet leaving the barrel at the same speed....then you can mess with seating depth to get the harmonic timing right so you can shrink your group size on target.

Enjoy your journey.....it never ends....

Lol. I guess that should have been obvious to me… If you could get to those levels with cheap off the shelf stuff why would anyone buy custom rifles and expensive reloading equipment.

 

[Krob95]

Do I need one of those doohickeys that measures neck runout and trims it to adjust neck tension or just a mandrel to make them all uniform?


24 ES is your match load?? I thought ES needed to be no more than like 10-15 max or it would suck once you pushed out further?

24fps isn’t the worst. It’s certainly good enough for MOA targets out to 900yds. It’s a 6BRA, I’m not shooting out to a mile with it. Especially with my lack of skill and just the die with the mandrel. Don’t neck turn. Not worth it for your application.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

What is the acceptable sd and es numbers to go for?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Going off of Eric Cortinas videos..."Chasing the lands is stupid, stop overcomplicating reloading" etc. Supposed to work up powder charges until one has a low ES and then tune seating depth for groups.

I agree with Eric Cortina's method, but you need to know roughly where you are starting. It doesn't need to be exact, but you need the reference. What he's referring to with his "chasing the lands" comment is that as erosion occurs, constantly remeasuring is a fools errand because measuring techniques are not consistent. His method is to load a few rounds a few thousandths long every so often and to compare them to the current setting and see how they perform. If better, then use the new.

I measured jam and subtracted from there on another bullet, but it was so far away from mag length I ditched it. No idea where they are now and don't really care if I'm limited my mag length?

If you've got a long chamber and you're sitting a couple hundred thousandths off, you want to know. Different bullets perform differently with different seating depths.

Starting with my fire formed brass. Tumble. Decap. Lube with RCBS on tray. Measure with Hornady comparator and bump shoulder back .002/.003. Measure a sample of at least 10 rounds for OAL and cut all brass to lowest one, within .001. Tumble again. Prime all cases. Carefully measure powder load. Seat bullet within .001 of each other using Hornady comparator.

Others have mentioned using a mandrel after sizing. I've got a thread going where I'm comparing different configurations (mandrel vs not, lube vs not, etc.). Using a mandrel has a significant effect, as it helps make the neck tension much more consistent. It's likely the lowest cost and lowest time way to get such a significant improvement.

Lastly, what ES/SD is acceptable is based on what you're doing. If you're shooting at, depending on round, 600 and under, the difference between a 25 ES and a 15 ES is negligible. At extreme ranges, it starts to matter.

 

[Rocketmandb]

It’s a 6BRA, I’m not shooting out to a mile with it. Especially with my lack of skill

You should try it - it's a lot of fun I've gotten to where (depending on the wind) I can get relatively consistent hits at 1500 with my BRA. I've gotten hits at roughly a mile, but I really needed the perfect day and perfect backstop (dry dirt). Gauging the hits is more difficult than spotting misses - my target doesn't even move, and the marks are really hard to see. Still, quite the challenge and fun to do.

 

[LR1845]

is this a new gun or barrel your working with?

 

[kindabitey]

What is the acceptable sd and es numbers to go for?

I’m ok with less than 15 SD/ 35 ES over minimum of 20 rounds. Anything less than that is a bonus.

 

[Krob95]

You should try it - it's a lot of fun I've gotten to where (depending on the wind) I can get relatively consistent hits at 1500 with my BRA. I've gotten hits at roughly a mile, but I really needed the perfect day and perfect backstop (dry dirt). Gauging the hits is more difficult than spotting misses - my target doesn't even move, and the marks are really hard to see. Still, quite the challenge and fun to do.

I’ll have to give it a go forsure! Gonna get some bigger steel tho. I don’t think a 12” circle will cut it

 

[Rocketmandb]

I’ll have to give it a go forsure! Gonna get some bigger steel tho. I don’t think a 12” circle will cut it

No If there's any wind, you want something like a 24" circle/oval. You can also go 1/4" as long as you don't use it for big stuff and/or in close.

 

[918v]

Can you please expand on that? I'm using a standard RCBS seating die with the body backed out so it doesn't crimp, and adjusting the seating stem down.

I'm using Winchester small rifle primers. I wish I could try others but that's impossible given the current situation. I go on an ammo/component run every morning and haven't seen primers in 6 months.

I shouldn't worry about my ES right now? What do you mean by "tune a powder charge?' Isn't that what I was doing by going up 0.3 and then 0.1 grains?

Are you not sizing the cases with a RCBS sizing die? That die sizes the neck down and the expander ball then opens the neck back up. The ID of the necks is consistent. I was not addressing your seating die.

If you’re stuck with those primers then you’re stuck with those primers. Oh well.

You wrote you seated the bullets to max coal. Are you not planning on tuning the seating depth? If you tune the seating depth you will like have to tune the powder charge again. So maybe you should wait until thats done before worrying about ES.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Are you not sizing the cases with a RCBS sizing die? That die sizes the neck down and the expander ball then opens the neck back up. The ID of the necks is consistent. I was not addressing your seating die.

If you’re stuck with those primers then you’re stuck with those primers. Oh well.

You wrote you seated the bullets to max coal. Are you not planning on tuning the seating depth? If you tune the seating depth you will like have to tune the powder charge again. So maybe you should wait until thats done before worrying about ES.

I am. Ok, so I don’t need to worry about neck tension using this FL die and shoulder bumping??

Yes of course I plan on tuning with seating depth. Again going of cortinas video. He says once you find a stable powder charge that’s it. Leave it alone forever and only change seating depth after that. Is that it true? It’s a back and forth trial and error game? According to him you find one powder charge with acceptable ES THEN move on to seating depth.

This is confusing. Lol.

 

[CoryT]

ES is really only useful to reject a load. If you test 10 round sample and have an ES of 60 or more, you can probably safely say that load will not be best.

An ES of of 40 may or may not be meaningful. If you test 20 rounds and the SD is 10, then an ES of 40 is entirely possible and its simply an outlier.

Basically, ignore ES unless it’s very large over a moderate sample.

 

[918v]

I am. Ok, so I don’t need to worry about neck tension using this FL die and shoulder bumping??

Yes of course I plan on tuning with seating depth. Again going of cortinas video. He says once you find a stable powder charge that’s it. Leave it alone forever and only change seating depth after that. Is that it true? It’s a back and forth trial and error game? According to him you find one powder charge with acceptable ES THEN move on to seating depth.

This is confusing. Lol.

Shoulder bumping does not affect neck tension. On a FL die, the neck gets sized a lot. But whatever neck tension you get is consistent. It might be too tight. It might cause excessive seating pressure. But it is at the very least consistent. You can play with it later as an independent variable by trying to open up the ID with different size mandrels.

Cortina is wrong about finding a stable powder charge and then tuning the coal. What if you have to seat the bullet .100” deeper to find accuracy? By doing so you have just changed the internal volume of your pressure vessel and what was a stable charge before may now be unstable. I always plot powder charge vs coal and locate the outer perimeter of the node so I know where the middle is.


For example:

I do a ladder at 2.810” coal and find 43 grains as my lucky powder charge. I play with the coal in .005” increments up/down and find that accuracy comes in at 2.825”. So then I load 42.9, 43.0, and 43.1grs @ 2.825” to test. It turns out that 42.9 shoots like shit, but 43.0 and 43.1grs are winners. So then I try 43.2, 43.3, etc until the groups open up again. Say it opens up at 43.5grs, that tells me 43.2 @ 2.825” is the middle. Then I play with coal again using 43.2grs. I go up and down until the groups open up. It could be that 2.835” is the middle of the node. So finally I confirm by loading 43.1, 43.2, and 43.3grs at 2.835” and they all should group tight and have the same poi. Then I test the ES. You’d be surprised how often it’s in the low teens.

Be cognizant of the fact that as brass hardens, your groups may open up. I have always found my best accuracy occurs with 1x-3x fired brass. I dunno why that is.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Shoulder bumping does not affect neck tension. On a FL die, the neck gets sized a lot. But whatever neck tension you get is consistent. It might be too tight. It might cause excessive seating pressure. But it is at the very least consistent. You can play with it later as an independent variable by trying to open up the ID with different size mandrels.

Cortina is wrong about finding a stable powder charge and then tuning the coal. What if you have to seat the bullet .100” deeper to find accuracy? By doing so you have just changed the internal volume of your pressure vessel and what was a stable charge before may now be unstable. I always plot powder charge vs coal and locate the outer perimeter of the node so I know where the middle is.


For example:

I do a ladder at 2.810” coal and find 43 grains as my lucky powder charge. I play with the coal in .005” increments up/down and find that accuracy comes in at 2.825”. So then I load 42.9, 43.0, and 43.1grs @ 2.825” to test. It turns out that 42.9 shoots like shit, but 43.0 and 43.1grs are winners. So then I try 43.2, 43.3, etc until the groups open up again. Say it opens up at 43.5grs, that tells me 43.2 @ 2.825” is the middle. Then I play with coal again using 43.2grs. I go up and down until the groups open up. It could be that 2.835” is the middle of the node. So finally I confirm by loading 43.1, 43.2, and 43.3grs at 2.835” and they all should group tight and have the same poi. Then I test the ES. You’d be surprised how often it’s in the low teens.

Be cognizant of the fact that as brass hardens, your groups may open up. I have always found my best accuracy occurs with 1x-3x fired brass. I dunno why that is.

I posted a comment on one of his videos asking how this works when Boyles Law states that changing the volume of the container will change the pressure...no response. Guess I knew he was incorrect and I just wanted it to be true.

Sorry if it's taking me a while to understand what you're saying here, but I'm missing something important.

"Shoulder bumping does not affect neck tension. On a FL die, the neck gets sized a lot. But whatever neck tension you get is consistent."

I am using a FL die to do my shoulder bump. So that DOESN'T effect my neck tension, or it does and is keeping it consistent? Or am I screwing up using an FL die to shoulder bump in the first place?


I didn't plan on keeping these cheap RCBS dies for long anyway. Planned on getting another Forster FL and micrometer seating die set. Will that do it or do I need other stuff too (recapping die, mandrel etc?) Should I plan on buying an annealing set up as well? RCBS charge master for more accurate powder charges? I have a spending problem, so hook me up. Hahaha

 

[918v]

I posted a comment on one of his videos asking how this works when Boyles Law states that changing the volume of the container will change the pressure...no response. Guess I knew he was incorrect and I just wanted it to be true.

Sorry if it's taking me a while to understand what you're saying here, but I'm missing something important.

"Shoulder bumping does not affect neck tension. On a FL die, the neck gets sized a lot. But whatever neck tension you get is consistent."

I am using a FL die to do my shoulder bump. So that DOESN'T effect my neck tension, or it does and is keeping it consistent? Or am I screwing up using an FL die to shoulder bump in the first place?


I didn't plan on keeping these cheap RCBS dies for long anyway. Planned on getting another Forster FL and micrometer seating die set. Will that do it or do I need other stuff too (recapping die, mandrel etc?) Should I plan on buying an annealing set up as well? RCBS charge master for more accurate powder charges? I have a spending problem, so hook me up. Hahaha

If you take one of your cases and look at it you will find the neck on top (sorry lol) and then a shoulder below the neck, and then the body which ultimately stops at the case head.

In order to bump the shoulder the die has to size the whole neck. Therefore, whatever amount of shoulder bumping you do will not affect the neck tension.

FL dies tend to size the neck a lot, meaning that instead of your typically desired .002” below bullet diameter, it goes as much as .010” below bullet diameter. Why? Because the die is designed to size necks having variable thickness caused by different manufacturer specs, neck turning by the end user, etc. So now you have a severely oversized neck. What to do? Expander ball! The expander ball just happens to be inside the case with the now severely oversized neck. As you withdraw the case from the die the expander ball opens the neck ID back up. Because the expander ball has a fixed OD, it will produce a consistent neck ID. The only problem is because the die severely oversized the neck, the amount of spring back is also severe and will cause increased seating pressure.

If, on the other hand, you use a honed die or a bushing die or a lee collet neck die, your necks will not get severely oversized. They will be minimally sized and the spring back will be minimal and the seating pressure will be lighter even though the neck tension is the same (neck tension as defined by the difference between the bullet OD and the neck ID).

You can always get a Forster die with an appropriate neck diameter. That will reduce your seating pressure. I like 70 PSI, seems to be what factory ammo uses. Some people like 20-40 PSI, though that low and you will see bullet setback during feeding from the mag. Some people who chase lands go for minimal seating pressure and let the lands control the start of combustion.

I am against annealing for beginners because it causes more problems than it solves and is unnecessary to work up a load. If you have 100 cases that is plenty before annealing becomes necessary to maintain accuracy.

 

[Krob95]

Shoulder bumping does not affect neck tension. On a FL die, the neck gets sized a lot. But whatever neck tension you get is consistent....

This would be true if all case necks were identical with identical thickness. Even with lapua brass this is not true unless necks are turned.

 

[918v]

This would be true if all case necks were identical with identical thickness. Even with lapua brass this is not true unless necks are turned.

You are a disgrace to the master race.

A standard FL die produces the same neck tension despite a variance in neck thickness because the expander ball opens up the neck. It doesn’t matter if one neck is .001” thinner than the other. The expander ball controls neck tension.

 

[Krob95]

Then I guess the expander ball was garbage in my type s Redding die for my 6BR because I had no consistency in seating pressure

 

[918v]

Seating pressure is affected by more than neck tension.

 

[Krob95]

Seating pressure is affected by more than neck tension.

Neck chamfer I’m sure helps as does some sort of lube to the inside of the neck. Anything else? Genuinely curious in case there’s something else I’m missing

 

[IdahoSpud]

I went out and shot two more five round groups working up thinking there might be a sweet spot there. Now my magneto speed is throwing errors.

no idea where to go from here, except to trade all my equipment for a set of golf clubs and try something else



24grn
Error
2833
Error
2850
error

24.3grn
Error
2845
2849
2915
2861

 

[JS/]

If you have not done so, you should measure the necks on the Lapua brass. Years ago, Lapua .223 brass was a lot thicker then other brands. I don't know if that is still the case with current manufacture, but if you are using a standard die, the necks are probably getting way more neck tension than they should., as 918v post above has advised you. I do use bushings for my .223 Redding dies and while most brands will get a .244 inch or .245 bushing size, the Lapua has to have a .247 inch or a .248 size.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Lastly, what ES/SD is acceptable is based on what you're doing. If you're shooting at, depending on round, 600 and under, the difference between a 25 ES and a 15 ES is negligible. At extreme ranges, it starts to matter.

People on this forum shoot 600 yds? Hmm who knew

 

[918v]

Neck chamfer I’m sure helps as does some sort of lube to the inside of the neck. Anything else? Genuinely curious in case there’s something else I’m missing

The degree to which the neck was sized in the first place. For example, if the neck was sized so the expander ball barely kissed it then neck thickness can take over. If the neck was annealed, then the oxide that formed inside the neck would increase seating pressure. Doughnuts starting to form at the base of the neck, lube and lube consistency, neck hardness variance, etc.

 

[918v]

I went out and shot two more five round groups working up thinking there might be a sweet spot there. Now my magneto speed is throwing errors.

no idea where to go from here, except to trade all my equipment for a set of golf clubs and try something else


24grn
Error
2833
Error
2850
error

24.3grn
Error
2845
2849
2915
2861

Set the sensitivity to normal. Put fresh batteries in it. Move the sensors closer to the bore.

 

[918v]

IdahoSpud:

How are you lubing your cases for sizing and how are you removing the lube from the inside of the neck afterwards?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Battery and unit are brand new. Had it at normal. Increase sensitivity to 9 and used a smaller spacer. I guess it helped because the second string had one error instead of 3.

Any tips on what to do next. Work up more about 24.3? Drop back down in the 22s?

 

[IdahoSpud]

IdahoSpud:

How are you lubing your cases for sizing and how are you removing the lube from the inside of the neck afterwards?

Rcbs case lube on the pad and rolling them. After sizing I trim and remove the case lube and brass by tumbling in corn cob media

 

[918v]

Is this for an AR?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Is this for an AR?

No. Tikka t3x

 

[918v]

No. Tikka t3x

I was thinking maybe if you did a ladder 20 off and 50 off to see if the load would be happier at a longer coal. But the mag is what? 2.260”? They make mags that allow a longer coal.