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6.5 cm Norma brass junk?

D

DDGKunia

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Mar 25, 2021
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Hey guys I was out at the range today trying to work up a load for my desert tech. 22.5" barrel, 1-8 twist, virgin Nosler LRP brass, RL17, 140gr eld, fio primers
Started load at 40.0, worked my way up in .3 incriminates up to 43 (.6 above Sierra manual).
Never really had any bolt lift issues but random primers smoking (not flat, not pushing out) at 42.1 and 41.8. By 42.7 it just blew a primer out. But the other 4 shots don't look bad. Then at 43, 2 blow outs. But the other 3 don't look bad.
Should I assume it's the Nosler brass, the primer or my gun causing this? No matter what powder I try this seems to be an issue. I have srp Lapua brass but am trying to save my srp for other calibers. Bite it and chuck the Nosler and just use Lapua? Thanks guys
 

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Thank you for your amazing and insightful help. I shall learn from this and better myself. If only I had asked before I loaded. Amazing
 
Nosler cases, not Norma. Some of those have pretty good ejector stamps on the case head along with the primer blow out. I would look at the consistency of your powder charge. I think you are getting much more of a charge in some cases than you think.
 
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Thank you mtang. I guess I should have been more clear with my question, is it normal with Nosler brass to leak around the primer before heavy flattening? The ejector stamps look worse in the pictures than in person.
Could it be from a primer that's just harder, so instead of flattening it's blowing out? I haven't run into this issue on my other calibers. 6.5 cm is just kicking my butt.
 
DDGKunia said:
Thank you mtang. I guess I should have been more clear with my question, is it normal with Nosler brass to leak around the primer before heavy flattening? The ejector stamps look worse I'm the pictures. Could it be from a primer that's just harder, so instead of flattening it's blowing out? I haven't run into this issue on my other calibers. 6.5 cm is just kicking my butt.
Click to expand...
No not normal. What kind of primer?

Edited: I see its Fio. I know nothing about them. However, I still think you are getting random pressure spikes for supposedly the same load. What do you use to weigh your powder charge?
 
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Fiocchi LRP standard. I use the same primer in my 308 and is does great. As for powder measure I'm using rcbs charge master, with double check every 3ed on the A&D. I can't wait for my V4 to be ready.
 
Honestly you could be right about the charge master over throwing, it "usually" throws under so I wasn't super worried. Now that I'm thinking about it I wonder if it could be a carbon ring forming causing a pressure spike.... I'll clean it tomorrow just in case
 
I've had this issue with 3 different powders in 6.5cm. But 6.5 is the only caliber I use Nosler brass with. I appreciate you talking through it with me. I really think I'll just go to my Lapua srp and then work my load back up. I'll have to change primers anyway with the Lapua brass.
I will keep an eye on charges off the rcbs just in case.
 
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Nosler is usually known to have very soft brass. I remember loading them for 308 and they were trashed within a couple of loadings.
 
How close to the lands were you with that load? Maybe its a start pressure issue being that you didn't have any heavy bolt lift.
 
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.025 off lands.
I just decapped all the brass and found some strange measurements. I had primer pockets stretching even on lighter loads. (I know calipers aren't the best way to measure but it gives me a benchmark) New brass measures .2095 confirmed on 6 pieces. Blown pieces are .220-.226. The 2 that gassed on me were .214ish, but there are several lighter loads up to .212-.214.
I think I just had a soft batch of brass, I know I was loaded hot but even light loads are stretching the primer pockets.
 
DDGKunia said:
.025 off lands.
I just decapped all the brass and found some strange measurements. I had primer pockets stretching even on lighter loads. (I know calipers aren't the best way to measure but it gives me a benchmark) New brass measures .2095 confirmed on 6 pieces. Blown pieces are .220-.226. The 2 that gassed on me were .214ish, but there are several lighter loads up to .212-.214.
I think I just had a soft batch of brass, I know I was loaded hot but even light loads are stretching the primer pockets.
Click to expand...
Just throw them away. You know why no one uses Nosler brass? It's junk. Just get Lapua, Alpha, Peterson or Norma brass. You will save money in the long run.
 
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Mmmm alpha brass. I want some for my 6gt so bad but it's never in stock with the good head stamp
 
DDGKunia said:
Thank you mtang. I guess I should have been more clear with my question, is it normal with Nosler brass to leak around the primer before heavy flattening? The ejector stamps look worse in the pictures than in person.
Could it be from a primer that's just harder, so instead of flattening it's blowing out? I haven't run into this issue on my other calibers. 6.5 cm is just kicking my butt.
Click to expand...

Refer back to post #2.
That's the problem.
If you're blowing out primers, then you're running 80,000psi or more.

It's fucking dangerous.

Again, refer back to post number 2
 
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DDGKunia said:
Hey guys I was out at the range today trying to work up a load for my desert tech. 22.5" barrel, 1-8 twist, virgin Nosler LRP brass, RL17, 140gr eld, fio primers
Started load at 40.7, worked my way up in .3 incriminates up to 43 (.6 above Sierra manual).
Never really had any bolt lift issues but random primers smoking (not flat, not pushing out) at 42.1 and 41.8. By 42.7 it just blew a primer out. But the other 4 shots don't look bad. Then at 43, 2 blow outs. But the other 3 don't look bad.
Should I assume it's the Nosler brass, the primer or my gun causing this? No matter what powder I try this seems to be an issue. I have srp Lapua brass but am trying to save my srp for other calibers. Bite it and chuck the Nosler and just use Lapua? Thanks guys
Click to expand...
You may want to change the headline to Nosler as it currently says Norma.
 
I have never seen Hornady bullets in a Seirra reloading manual. :unsure: What brass they using in that manual? Nosler?
 
DDGKunia said:
Hey guys I was out at the range today trying to work up a load for my desert tech. 22.5" barrel, 1-8 twist, virgin Nosler LRP brass, RL17, 140gr eld, fio primers
Started load at 40.7, worked my way up in .3 incriminates up to 43 (.6 above Sierra manual).
Never really had any bolt lift issues but random primers smoking (not flat, not pushing out) at 42.1 and 41.8. By 42.7 it just blew a primer out. But the other 4 shots don't look bad. Then at 43, 2 blow outs. But the other 3 don't look bad.
Should I assume it's the Nosler brass, the primer or my gun causing this? No matter what powder I try this seems to be an issue. I have srp Lapua brass but am trying to save my srp for other calibers. Bite it and chuck the Nosler and just use Lapua? Thanks guys
Click to expand...
Looking at your primers/brass, it really looks like too much headspace to me. Have you tried any other brass? That's not a normal look on primers, it really appears to me like the cases is rebounding back and forth. And no 41 grs is not too hot. Guys shoot 44 all the time. A case that is moving back too far on firing will pop primers.
 
I generally start by choosing a target velocity so you have some real down to earth expectations. The first time I shot peterson brass I saw the velocity and knew something was different. Stopped and figured out what the heck was going on... BTW, max ended up being 40.8gr h4350.

Don't let your pride stop you from stopping. Its OK to drive home and pull bullets.

What were your velocities on the 43gr load?

Also, I've been able to get SRP pretty easy. LR are almost impossible right now but they do pop up.
 
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larryh128 said:
Looking at your primers/brass, it really looks like too much headspace to me. Have you tried any other brass? That's not a normal look on primers, it really appears to me like the cases is rebounding back and forth. And no 41 grs is not too hot. Guys shoot 44 all the time. A case that is moving back too far on firing will pop primers.
Click to expand...
I don't have a set of headspace gauges for 6.5 but, unfired Nosler brass measures (D400 insert in the Hornady comparator) 1.537.
Fired brass shows 1.5405-1.541. Honestly it seems tight. I will be trying Lapua brass on my next trip.
 
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Jackomason said:
I generally start by choosing a target velocity so you have some real down to earth expectations. The first time I shot peterson brass I saw the velocity and knew something was different. Stopped and figured out what the heck was going on... BTW, max ended up being 40.8gr h4350.

Don't let your pride stop you from stopping. Its OK to drive home and pull bullets.

What were your velocities on the 43gr load?

Also, I've been able to get SRP pretty easy. LR are almost impossible right now but they do pop up.
Click to expand...
I was just looking for good SD and velocity plateaus. I know it's not the best but I enjoy this method. All 5 shot groups
41.8 SD 10 2799 fps .43 moa
42.1. SD 11.3 2812 fps .67 moa
42.4 SD 14.2. 2855 fps. .80 moa
42.7 SD 7. 2876 fps. .70 moa
43.0. SD 18. 2902 fps. +1 moa

I've got 2 sweet spots to try out. Really like the 42.4-42.7 2850 seems like a great velocity for the 140 hpbt's.
Also where I'm at I can't order primers I get what the 1 shop has. Lol so srp is nearly impossible to find. I have 3k LRP but only 900 srp. And I reload for 5.56, 6gt both already take srp so I tried LRP brass. I think I'll just use my srp brass next time out
 
DDGKunia said:
Thank you mtang. I guess I should have been more clear with my question, is it normal with Nosler brass to leak around the primer before heavy flattening? The ejector stamps look worse in the pictures than in person.
Could it be from a primer that's just harder, so instead of flattening it's blowing out? I haven't run into this issue on my other calibers. 6.5 cm is just kicking my butt.
Click to expand...

learn about pressure signs on primers ! you dont know nothing !:sick:

...heavy flattening...:ROFLMAO::poop:
 
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DDGKunia said:
I was just looking for good SD and velocity plateaus. I know it's not the best but I enjoy this method. All 5 shot groups
41.8 SD 10 2799 fps .43 moa
42.1. SD 11.3 2812 fps .67 moa
42.4 SD 14.2. 2855 fps. .80 moa
42.7 SD 7. 2876 fps. .70 moa
43.0. SD 18. 2902 fps. +1 moa

I've got 2 sweet spots to try out. Really like the 42.4-42.7 2850 seems like a great velocity for the 140 hpbt's.
Also where I'm at I can't order primers I get what the 1 shop has. Lol so srp is nearly impossible to find. I have 3k LRP but only 900 srp. And I reload for 5.56, 6gt both already take srp so I tried LRP brass. I think I'll just use my srp brass next time out
Click to expand...
I, like you...just 3 years ago... originally started with 41gr of Reloder 17 and 140's with Prime brass (Norma makes Nosler and made Prime at the time) looking for speed... You're absolutely, 100%, without a doubt going to have to back off loads above 42gr once temperatures rise above 70-75⁰f. Believe me when I say you are flirting with the edge of safety. I had to completely scrap my ideas and restarted my load development with 39gr and stopped at 41.5gr. 40.5gr was the sweet spot for me.

Reloder 17 is a fantastic powder for speed, but at the cost of high temperature sensitivity. When I was shooting it, my load was 40.5 under a 147 ELDm and Prime (Norma) brass. With the 40.5 load I was getting about 2700fps and no overpressure signs in 75⁰ and getting flattened primers at 95⁰, and sticky extraction at 105⁰

Absolutely 💯 do NOT RECOMMEND getting anywhere near overpressure signs in the winter time with Reloder 17. If you want speed and safety, Reloder 26 is the answer. 2850fps out of my 24" Tikka with 47gr Reloder 26 under a 142 Matchking in prime brass and have nothing in way of overpressure signs.

Unless you have some super specific terminal ballistic energy requirements.... you can back off the velocity/pressure, and go a couple clicks more elevation in your scope.

Also, check your headspace with a go AND no-go gauge. You might be a little long on the headspace of the primers are that flat on even the sub-41gr loads. Yes, all of your primers are flattened and/or cratered.

I've been there and done that. Been in your exact shoes with both headspace issues as well as load development with this same powder, brass and bullet weight. My mistakes can be your safety margin.

Good luck, and be safe.

Here's the thread I had going on my 147 load development just in case you think I may be full of shit with my experiences.

www.snipershide.com

6.5 CR, 147 ELD Match, Reloder 16, 17, 23 (yes, more info.)

So, there I was, on the perpetual quest for The Load. My Rifffle is a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Proof Research M24 Profile profit 24" barrel with an APA Little Bastard on the end. I had recently, like yesterday, found BLC(2) powder works pretty well for the Nosler 130 RDF in my rifle. Check...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
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DDGKunia said:
I was just looking for good SD and velocity plateaus. I know it's not the best but I enjoy this method. All 5 shot groups
41.8 SD 10 2799 fps .43 moa
42.1. SD 11.3 2812 fps .67 moa
42.4 SD 14.2. 2855 fps. .80 moa
42.7 SD 7. 2876 fps. .70 moa
43.0. SD 18. 2902 fps. +1 moa

I've got 2 sweet spots to try out. Really like the 42.4-42.7 2850 seems like a great velocity for the 140 hpbt's.
Also where I'm at I can't order primers I get what the 1 shop has. Lol so srp is nearly impossible to find. I have 3k LRP but only 900 srp. And I reload for 5.56, 6gt both already take srp so I tried LRP brass. I think I'll just use my srp brass next time out
Click to expand...
Let me ask an honest question. So you’re doing load development in the winter, with a very temp sensitive powder. Your velocities are already dangerously high given your barrel length. You are literally blowing primers out the backs of cases. And you decide to ignor those signs, and instead try to mask the crazy pressure with SRP brass? Why?
 
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Rule #1 of reloading- Start low and work up.

You have a dozen different variables- Chamber size, brass volume (which can be a major contributor), bullet variation, primers, powder lots, etc. Taking a recipe from a book will only give you what worked well in a specific case. Your situation can never be identical to the book.

The headspace question was valid as well.
 
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Alright, back to square 1 with my question.
1. I acknowledge I was over pressure, that's why I was working up. The final load will probably be around 2775-2825. That seems to be a sweet spot.
2. For the guy asking about load development in the winter, it's 80 degrees here year round, so that's not an issue.
3. By no means do I know everything about reloading, not even close. Yet I use this same primer in my 308 (different brass manufacturer) and I see better pressure signs. Ex; more pronounced "flattening" of the primer, larger ejector swiping, extractor pull and bolt lift problems(same rifle, same bolt). I saw very little of that with this caliber. All I was attempting to ask was if anyone had seen Nosler brass having these issues. I reload 5.56, 308, 6.5cm, 300 nm and 338 nm this was the only time I've seen brass act like this. All I was trying to figure out is why I was getting soot around my primers all the way down around 41.8 to 42.1. The blowouts at 42.7-43 is all me.
4. I will check the headspace with a set of gauges when I get back from sea.

Thank you to those with applicable advice, once I have a chance to I'll work back up my load with different brass and see what happens. I'm not looking for a speed just a forgiving load that's repeatable. I didn't post but my ladder test went all the way down to 40gn. And again I appreciate those who took the time to be constructive.
 
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DDGKunia said:
Alright, back to square 1 with my question.
1. I acknowledge I was over pressure, that's why I was working up. The final load will probably be around 2775-2825. That seems to be a sweet spot.
2. For the guy asking about load development in the winter, it's 80 degrees here year round, so that's not an issue.
3. By no means do I know everything about reloading, not even close. Yet I use this same primer in my 308 (different brass manufacturer) and I see better pressure signs. Ex; more pronounced "flattening" of the primer, larger ejector swiping, extractor pull and bolt lift problems(same rifle, same bolt). I saw very little of that with this caliber. All I was attempting to ask was if anyone had seen Nosler brass having these issues. I reload 5.56, 308, 6.5cm, 300 nm and 338 nm this was the only time I've seen brass act like this. All I was trying to figure out is why I was getting soot around my primers all the way down around 41.8 to 42.1. The blowouts at 42.7-43 is all me.
4. I will check the headspace with a set of gauges when I get back from sea.

Thank you to those with applicable advice, once I have a chance to I'll work back up my load with different brass and see what happens. I'm not looking for a speed just a forgiving load that's repeatable. I didn't post but my ladder test went all the way down to 40gn. And again I appreciate those who took the time to be constructive.
Click to expand...
Couple things.

Your velocity goal is attainable with Reloder 17, but it's on the edge of max-safe. If you want to have your brass last linger than 3-4 firings, I'd back off the charge and go for absolute consistency/tiny groups iver top-end velocity. But, it seems like you're pretty set on a particular velocity for whatever your reasons are.

Reference the primer flattening across the board...I was thinking.... maybe your headspace is good, but the virgin brass was a bit short, and allowed the primers to back out, then the brass grew as the pressure increased in the chamber.. and is now fire-formed. If you have the ability, I would size just the neck and see if that will chamber in your gun. It should. Check the headspace of the cartridge, load a few with 40.5gr, shoot'em, and measure the case heaspace again. If I were a betting man, I'd put a few bucks saying your case grew no more than 0.002", and your primer shouldn't have any flattening, or anything.


Good luck.
 
this from clcustom1911 and knowing that pressure signs from primers are NOT always good ones.
cratering does not always mean that you have high pressure, but that you have big hole around you firing pin. get custom BR action and cratering will be gone for good.
and flatering can be because of soft primers, and some primers are more round from the beggining that anothers and than when fires looks different.
extractor sign because of soft brass (which you might have).
and leaking primers also from too soft brass head...
so everything is possible.

btw, why are your fired primers so 'ugly' and not flat ? this is strange.
 
not necessarily.
too much pressure is when it is over CIP / SAMMI specification. but when this happend before that, you have only soft brass head, not too much pressure. and some producers, like peterson, claim that they have very strong brass heads and tight primer pockets (which I see in my 284WIN brass, and I dont like to have so tight primer pocket)...
imho.
 
Umm... so general rule is that when you find pressure signs you back off..... but everyone has their own plan I guess.
 
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Alot of nosler brass is made by norma and in my experience, has been terrible.

With all the great 6,5CM brass out there including SRP from Lapua, Alpha, ADG & Peterson, there is no reason to waste time or money with Norma.

www.bluecollarreloading.com

Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass SRP #4PH6011C

Product Information Cartridge: 6.5 Creedmoor Finish: Brass Condition: New Quantity: 100 Primed: No Primer Size: Small Primer Pocket *This is not loaded ammunition.
www.bluecollarreloading.com www.bluecollarreloading.com

In stock at a great price with no tax.
 
SmartDonkey said:
Umm... so general rule is that when you find pressure signs you back off..... but everyone has their own plan I guess.
Click to expand...

''when you find pressure signs''

like I said in previous post, pressure signs are not straight forward. what is written and seen all over internet is all rubbish. one pressure sign is not a sign.
all signs combined with knowing what you are looking at, this is only real sign. but only one sign it can be very wrong.
 
^^ True- but if you are already blowing primers then going up to a higher charge is stupid. It could be many things- bad brass could be a possibility-- but if that's what you think why go to a higher charge?
 
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If you are getting ejector smears not accompanied by other pressure signs, it is still a pressure sign.
 
DDGKunia said:
I was just looking for good SD and velocity plateaus. I know it's not the best but I enjoy this method. All 5 shot groups
41.8 SD 10 2799 fps .43 moa
42.1. SD 11.3 2812 fps .67 moa
42.4 SD 14.2. 2855 fps. .80 moa
42.7 SD 7. 2876 fps. .70 moa
43.0. SD 18. 2902 fps. +1 moa

I've got 2 sweet spots to try out. Really like the 42.4-42.7 2850 seems like a great velocity for the 140 hpbt's.
Also where I'm at I can't order primers I get what the 1 shop has. Lol so srp is nearly impossible to find. I have 3k LRP but only 900 srp. And I reload for 5.56, 6gt both already take srp so I tried LRP brass. I think I'll just use my srp brass next time out
Click to expand...
Do what you want but I personally would back off below your lowest charge. That’s pretty damn quick for a 22 inch barrel and your group sizes are telling you that also. Maybe start at 41 and go to 42 watching for pressure. If you have ejector marks it’s obviously too hot. Blowing primers is the point where you realized you fucked up. Again do what you want and I’m not telling you what to do. I ran this up in quick load which is fairly close most of the time. There is some haters on here but this is what its showing for chamber pressure at 41.8. Its a hot load even at that.
 

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Nosler has been making all of it's own brass since it bought SSA in 2013. The early Norma made brass, IMO, was better quality.
 
...Started load at 40.0, worked my way up in .3 incriminates up to 43 (.6 above Sierra manual).
Never really had any bolt lift issues but random primers smoking (not flat, not pushing out) at 42.1 and 41.8. By 42.7 it just blew a primer out. But the other 4 shots don't look bad. Then at 43, 2 blow outs. But the other 3 don't look bad...
Click to expand...

yes, with different components it can blew primer out at sierra's max...
 
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