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Suppressors What effects backpressure on a piston gas gun

TacosGigante

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Oct 29, 2013
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Finally got to take out my TBAC Dominus and used it on a HK 556A1 with a non-adjustable gas block and a LMT Shovel nose with adjustable gas block set to suppressed, and well, I got this:



Now, I am left handed so my face is right by the bolt, which didn't help. But I was wondering, what is driving this and is there anything I can do to reduce the gas hitting me? For example, would further reducing the speed of the piston help reduce gas by slowing the unlock, or would that not help? Should I get a heavier buffer? Should I switch to something like a Huxwrx flow-through or a Stag Arms left-hand AR? Should I just wear a gas mask?

Thanks
 
Well do your piston guns have a suppressed setting? Using the smallest port available will help.

Using a heavier buffer and spring could help if you could keep it reliable.

You being a lefty you are going to struggle plain and simple but I would look into a flow through design suppressor to help as much as possible.
 
Finally got to take out my TBAC Dominus and used it on a HK 556A1 with a non-adjustable gas block and a LMT Shovel nose with adjustable gas block set to suppressed, and well, I got this:



Now, I am left handed so my face is right by the bolt, which didn't help. But I was wondering, what is driving this and is there anything I can do to reduce the gas hitting me? For example, would further reducing the speed of the piston help reduce gas by slowing the unlock, or would that not help? Should I get a heavier buffer? Should I switch to something like a Huxwrx flow-through or a Stag Arms left-hand AR? Should I just wear a gas mask?

Thanks

I have a few lefty AR's. It's WAY better! The adams lefty piston kit is the only one I know that makes a lefty so that's what I have on 2 of my AR's. I shot the new pistol build yesterday for the first time, suppressed. I turned the gas all the way down and it was pretty good. I'd like to have had a few more clicks to go down a touch more but I'm really happy. I can shoot that gun and no eyes watering or cases going past my face ect....

Get a few lefty uppers and those adams kits and thank me later. I would recommend staying away from the side chargers and stick with reg charging handle uppers though, the side chargers have a little piece at the back that is made to open and let gas out if needed and it's right in your face. Haven't shot that one with the piston kit yet, so it may be fine now. I'm waiting on a rail that works with the piston set up, got a "small frame 308 " rail somehow instead of a ar15 rail so had to swap that out.
 
Most piston guns vent the gas just behind the gas block once the piston starts moving, thus, the gas you're getting is probably from the breech. Delay and/or slow bolt opening as much as possible while retaining operation should reduce the amount of gas. This can be done by increasing mass or decreasing the amount of gas vented into the piston system.

On DI guns, it's fairly easy to make a non gassy rifle but using a smaller gas port (or adjustable gas block) and/or using a longer gas system that would normally be used (for example, rifle or intermediate on a 16" instead of mid or even worse carbine).
 
But I was wondering, what is driving this and is there anything I can do to reduce the gas hitting me?

Early unlocking. The gas is coming down the barrel.

You need to increase mass (buffer) and/or reduce gas flow to the piston. I'm not sure if aftermarket adjustable gas block parts exist for the hk or lmt but they would help significantly. But you can start by increasing buffer mass.

OSS would likely solve the issue for you as a lefty if you couldn't tune the gassiness out.
 
Flowthru option... 👍, which is less helpful given your exiting suppressor.

I recently changed from a Surefire 556 so DA Nomad30 and (in a completely unscientific study) feel there is less gas coming out of the ejection port. My guess is the DA's larger volume + the .30 bore help more gas go out the out hole. Also, not terribly helpful for your current suppressor. (This is on a suppressor-only upper that won't cycle with an OSS-type)

The other idea I've pondered but never tried is to hang a brass catcher on the upper, thinking the netting will disrupt/ block some of the gas.
 
i'm a lefty with rifle cans and i hate it. absolutely nothing helps other than holding your breath or shooting right handed. its just the gas back pressure, that why mags get so filthy. piston guns dont make it any better by a noticeable amount, IMO. i had a can on an LWRC piston and still felt the blast as much as the DI rifles

sun glasses are a must and the constant blast of gas to your snoot gets old fast. windy days make it better if you catch the cross wind...:rolleyes:
 
i'm a lefty with rifle cans and i hate it. absolutely nothing helps other than holding your breath or shooting right handed. its just the gas back pressure, that why mags get so filthy. piston guns dont make it any better by a noticeable amount, IMO. i had a can on an LWRC piston and still felt the blast as much as the DI rifles

sun glasses are a must and the constant blast of gas to your snoot gets old fast. windy days make it better if you catch the cross wind...:rolleyes:
Have you tried the OSS cans? Are they not any better?
 
Have you tried the OSS cans? Are they not any better?

i have not. i bought all 4 of mine long ago before all the cool new tech came out. i have 3 AAC cans, all about 10-12 years old and one HTG Eureka thread mount.

been seriously thinking about something more modern though. guess the OSS is the ticket for reduced back pressure?
 
i have not. i bought all 4 of mine long ago before all the cool new tech came out. i have 3 AAC cans, all about 10-12 years old and one HTG Eureka thread mount.

been seriously thinking about something more modern though. guess the OSS is the ticket for reduced back pressure?
That is what many people say, but I don’t know firsthand. If it works, cool, but if not it isn’t worth shooting a gas gun suppressed for me.
 
TacosGigante,

Before you give up, I'd recommend at least shooting an upper that was built for suppression. By that I mean more similar to those I described in my first post above. I always wear glasses due to my eyes and I'm right-handed, but I really get minimal gas when shooting a DI gun that has the gas turned down and/or a longer gas system than normal. A 16" with RLGS (I don't use adj gas blocks on these but you could) really has minimal blowback because the pressure has dropped so far by the time the breech opens
 
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That is what many people say, but I don’t know firsthand. If it works, cool, but if not it isn’t worth shooting a gas gun suppressed for me.
as much as i hate it, i still have 2 shorty SBR's set up with cans...for social work. i sure dont take them out that much though.

the other 2 are on scoped rifles so the volume of fire is low and doesnt both me as much.
 
Fellow lefty who also shoots suppressed, but my two primary suppressors are a Dead Air Sandman S and a LaRue Tranquilo. Neither has a lot of back pressure, so even on a short barreled DI gun I don't find the gas too bad. And shooting my PWS or my Sig 716 (both of which are pistons) are really a complete joy. But both have adjustable gas blocks with a suppressed setting. I think the suggestion that you try swapping in a heavier buffer and maybe a Springco spring might help. Also, slow fire seems to make a difference in how much gas I get vs. doing rapid fire/mag dumps. And I assume you're shooting outdoors, and if there's some wind, so much the better.
 
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Fellow lefty who also shoots suppressed, but my two primary suppressors are a Dead Air Sandman S and a LaRue Tranquilo. Neither has a lot of back pressure, so even on a short barreled DI gun I don't find the gas too bad. And shooting my PWS or my Sig 716 (both of which are pistons) are really a complete joy. But both have adjustable gas blocks with a suppressed setting. I think the suggestion that you try swapping in a heavier buffer and maybe a Springco spring might help. Also, slow fire seems to make a difference in how much gas I get vs. doing rapid fire/mag dumps. And I assume you're shooting outdoors, and if there's some wind, so much the better.
Can confirm that more rapid shooting was far worse. Shooting on the bench for groups was no big deal, more rapid fire was a different matter.
 
Piston guns also typically unlock sooner than DI guns and also require more gas to run. So I wouldn't rule DI out as a better option

i'll say one thing about DI vs pistons for suppressed, they all get dirty and i didnt see any value in using a suppressor on a piston. the BCG got dirty anyway but it was less, maybe about a 2 to 1 ration for rounds fired.

problem i had wa my old LWRC has the shinny silver BCG and it actually tarnished to the point it started to feel like there was drag even clean. took a good amount of rubbing with brasso to clean that off.
 
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LaRue TranQuilo worth consideration for your application.
Little heavy, maybe, but is great suppressor for AR platforms as adds very little backpressure.
I have not tried OSS cans.
Do have several TranQuilo that are used on 223, 25-08, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creed, 260 Rem, 300 BO & 308 AR platforms.
No appreciable difference on how upper cycles, where brass ejects when can is on or off.
 
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Yes, LaRue Tranquilo is great as far as back pressure is concerned. And does a great job of suppression (very quiet). It is very heavy though.

And if you've bought an UU upper from LaRue they will generally sell it to you for the reduced price of $399 (at least that was true about a year ago). Very long wait times though, and then you have the additional ATF delay.
 
TranQuilo is about 4 oz heavier than OSS / HUX 7.62 QD made with 17-4 & about 9 oz more than the Ti HUX 7.62 QD.

Yes, lead time can be long for TranQuilo.
When getting TranQuilo as part of larger package (UUK, 6.5 Grendel FDE, etc.) for $400 it was too good of a deal to pass up, even if a little heavier.

Yes, I’m a bit biased as TranQuilo already in hand, known performer and I’ve got plenty of brake / adapters already on barrels.

I should get a HUX, if nothing else so I can do a side by side comparison.
 
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I shoot a lot left-handed, so I feel your pain when it comes to getting gass to the face when shooting suppressed.

I want to premise my response with what other posters have mentioned first prior to diving into the suppressor component of what you're asking:

AR-pattern rifles have a bunch of annoyingly finnicky parameters when it comes to making them work (excluding ammunition pressures). The lowest-cost way to solve your problem is likely going to be finding the correct buffer weight to use in the rifle that functions adequately for you, both suppressed and unsuppressed, as well with the ammunition that you choose to run through it. Your goal is to increase the time that it takes for the bolt to begin the unlocking process, so that there is more time for gasses to be expelled down and out of the barrel, thereby reducing the pressure in/near the chamber of the weapon.

If the upper is properly gassed for operation unsuppressed and has the proper buffer weight/buffer spring weight combination to function, then you won't get as much, if any gas to the face when shooting unsuppressed. Likewise, if the upper is properly gassed for operation suppressed and has the proper buffer/buffer spring combination to function suppressed, then you'll get good results when shooting suppressed. The issues arise when you try to make an upper run optimally both suppressed and unsuppressed (there is kind of a shortcut to this though - more on that below).

Think of the upper as a specially tuned and timed system. Adding a suppressor (outside of cans such as the OSS/Huxworx designs) inserts another component into the system that directly affects pressures at the gas port. If we are talking about a DI gun, this means that more hot gas at higher pressure exerts greater force on the system which, for a DI system means that there is more gas getting spewed into the gas key faster and more violently, and thereby forcing the system (if unmodified) to unlock faster. On a piston gun, this phenomenon, while not directly spewing gas into a gas key in the upper receiver (and closer to the shooter's face) means that, if unmitigated, the system will unlock faster. Basically what this means is that when using a piston gun there will likely be more gas at higher pressures present near the breech face as the cartridge ejects, but not necessarily more gas coming from the gas port towards the shooter (because piston-driven designs typically vent gasses near the piston head- there is no "gas tube" per-se). This is important in your case, as with a piston gun, you aren't trying to control the amount of gas that you are introducing into the system in order to reduce the amount of gas coming back towards the breech (and into the shooter's face), but you are rather trying to control the force exerted on the piston system so as to control the unlock time of the bolt/rearward travel of the bolt carrier group (which, technically you are trying to do with a DI system too, but the DI system has the added issue in that instead of using a piston rod to exert force on the bolt carrier group, you are using lots of propellent gasses under pressure to accomplish the same thing, with the added issue of the gasses needing to vent somewhere closer to the shooter's face-the upper receiver).

Outside of changing gas system lengths (which would mean a different barrel, and something that I wouldn't recommend doing in this case), changing the following things helps to reduce uncertainty in the system. Keep in mind that all of these components are interconnected to each other and influence the system more or less than another, and are more or less-permanent options.

Ammunition (5.56x45 NATO pressures vs. commercial .223 pressure can make a difference) (easy to assess effectiveness, less-permanent, low-moderate influence, inexpensive)

Buffer weight (moderately easy to assess effectiveness, less-permanent, moderate influence, a little bit more expensive)

Buffer spring weight (moderately easy to assess effectiveness, less-permanent, moderate-high influence, less-expensive)

Gas port size (LMT gas ports are known to be somewhat larger) (difficult to assess effectiveness, permanent, high influence, expensive, requires "gunsmithing") *I wouldn't recommend this, as making your gas port larger would likely make this problem worse*

Adjustable gas block installation (DI-only guns, as piston systems often have multiple positions that are, by default, "adjustable") (easy to assess effectiveness, semi-permanent, high influence, moderately expensive, requires "gunsmithing")

My advice would be to reduce the variables first by sticking to a certain type of ammunition, then, if you are experiencing issues still, check to see if your piston is set on the "suppressed" setting when shooting suppressed. If that still doesn't work, then increase your buffer weights to the heaviest weight where you are able to have the upper reliably cycle on a full magazine and achieve bolt lock on an empty magazine. You can stop there, or if you really want to tempt fate, you can tune your buffer weights lighter until you find the adequate balance between gas in the face, reliability, and recoil impulse. If you are still having issues, try a slightly stronger buffer spring, and then conduct the same buffer weight workup from the lightest buffer you've got to whatever gives you the right balance of reliability and less gass to the face. If that doesn't work, repeat with a slightly stronger buffer spring, and conduct the same workup with buffer weights. During all of this, check your ejection patterns for your brass: overgassed is from 12-3 O'Clock, with good ejection being from 3-4:30, and an under-gassed or short-stroking rifle being from 4:30-6 O'Clock.

Opening up a gas port would be counter-productive, so don't do this.


The "easy fix" on a properly gassed, unsuppressed rifle that hosts a suppressor, is an OSS/Huxworx can, as it pretty much doesn't affect the operating system of a rifle due to being an extremely low backpressure design. It's very expensive though by comparison to playing the ammunition/buffer weight/spring game, and won't solve the underlying issues that it seems that you're having.

You can also consider a "gas buster" charging handle. Some people like them, others can't really tell the difference, but depending on the amount of gas you're receiving in the upper receiver/outside the breach it might help.

Now for my shamelessly positive opinion on OSS/Huxworx suppressors:

I've shot the OSS cans and Surefire RC2 back to back on DI SBRs, and there is no comparison between the two in terms of backpressure. Actually, there is really no comparison between the OSS and most traditional suppressors when it comes to backpressure: the OSS/Huxworx can wins hands down, especially on DI guns. The difference is so noticeable that, for someone who hates getting gas face, it could be defined as "game changing". I've consistently experienced zero gas to the face on a properly gassed/balanced (buffer and spring combination) DI gun when shooting an OSS suppressor. Yes, zero. Here come the caveats though:

They aren't the quietest suppressors by comparison to other designs, but they aren't a slouch either. The really cool thing that I and a few friends have noticed is that the recoil impulse changes substantially compared to unsuppressed or traditional cans; the OSS smooths out the recoil impulse to something more akin to a "push" with 5.56. It's somewhat comical how much of an improvement the OSS cans make to the rifles we have used them on, even when shooting hot 5.56 through a 7.62 OSS can.

The way that the OSS suppressors attach to the muzzle device and the construction of the suppressor makes them self-tightening with every subsequent shot. This can be seen as either a feature or a bug, but it generally means that these aren't exactly "QD" in the traditional sense. That being said, other suppressor manufacturers' QD cans will carbon lock on a muzzle device if not properly cleaned/maintained, and they are a pain to remove (looking at you specifically, Surefire).

If all else fails, I'm sure that someone here would gladly offer to T&E your uppers to make sure that they function properly. In all seriousness though, you likely just need to play the buffer weight game and go to a heavier buffer, keeping in mind that the buffer that works well for your HK 556 A1 upper may be different than what works well for your LMT shovelnose.
 
My question to u is effectiveness of a certain thickness surpressor. Can a surpressor that is 7 inches long plus booster and piston which is over an inch with outside diameter of ,1.45 inside ,1.25 effective with subsonic 300 blackout with the ar15 platform work in reducing decimals safely. I did my research and Surefire uses a 1.50 diameter. But they can fit about 13 baffles and weld them. I've had all sorts of direct thread ones that you can tell it helped with the sound but with no break and the last was wider but only 6 inches it sounded like a fire cracker which sounds exactly what a subsonic round is rated at so that didn't do much but I was hoping this longer setup with a piston and booster to break up the gas would have effect on sound. The baffles are measured to have a 9mm hole. I believe it will be effective but I've thought that about so many thread on ones some have the ebreak. Have you ever used the surpressor liquids or do you think they will cause too much dirt. These things are SS and can just be rinsed. I used to add a bit of water inside and it would reduce the sound of the first shot.
 
You don't use a booster and a piston on rifles.
Loud cans are loud and quiet cans are quiet.
A dedicated large volume .30 cal suppressor will be way quieter than a 9mm pistol suppressor on 300 BLK.
 
Finally got to take out my TBAC Dominus and used it on a HK 556A1 with a non-adjustable gas block and a LMT Shovel nose with adjustable gas block set to suppressed, and well, I got this:



Now, I am left handed so my face is right by the bolt, which didn't help. But I was wondering, what is driving this and is there anything I can do to reduce the gas hitting me? For example, would further reducing the speed of the piston help reduce gas by slowing the unlock, or would that not help? Should I get a heavier buffer? Should I switch to something like a Huxwrx flow-through or a Stag Arms left-hand AR? Should I just wear a gas mask?

Thanks

I go with stag. Why would u wear a gas mask. I have several stag bolts and they work well. Some stag lowers come with Geissele triggers. 3gl. Use an adjustable gas block. Heavier buffer's work with 556 but don't use it with 300. Unless you only shoot supersonics then an H2 buffer system would work. I've found the ar15 JP H silent capture system work very well with both sub sonic ammo and with a tad adjustment with supers but u don't really even have to. I've ran suppers with the block wide open still works fine with out heavy kick, so go lefty and JP SCS regular weight. U can always buy the spring kit. Run heavier springs. But the. 80 85 lb spring works great with 300 subs and supers. One time I had issues that's because the gas block screw was not tight so get a good adjustable gas block. If your running 9 inch barrel u might not even need an adjustable with the scs it's when you start going very short barrel and u need as much air as you can and some guys will make the hole the same size as the tube. Then when you run supers their issue is too much gas. But I like to stay in the 9 10 inch works and I realize most ammo works with the jp SCS H. It's worth it if you really feel like it's too much and u need they sell tungston weights. I think they say with 300 blackout that all you need is a regular spring and buffer and an adjustable gas block. But stag sells uppers make sure you buy the upper bcg. I got mine nickle boron for 174. Do not go with another bcg. It will scratch.