.223 - 5.56

jLorenzo said:

If I switch from LC to Lapua to I need to drop a grain or two off my charge weight? I remember hearing that Lapua had less case capacity?

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If the Lapua cases are heavier, then you may require a load reduction but weigh a few of each and compare.

Lake City brass is also on the heavy side, so you may not find much of a difference. Changing from Winchester to Lapua is more of a significant change.

Remember that case capacity in a new case is one thing, but after it's been fired in your rifle and expands to your chamber, that is quite another.

Most people will use one load for virgin brass and another for after it has been fire formed.

Bottom line is that case weight is the final differentiator of case volume of a fire formed case.

PracticalTactical said:

If the Lapua cases are heavier, then you may require a load reduction but weigh a few of each and compare.

Lake City brass is also on the heavy side, so you may not find much of a difference. Changing from Winchester to Lapua is more of a significant change.

Remember that case capacity in a new case is one thing, but after it's been fired in your rifle and expands to your chamber, that is quite another.

Most people will use one load for virgin brass and another for after it has been fire formed.

Bottom line is that case weight is the final differentiator of case volume of a fire formed case.

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How would you compare Winchester? I switched from LC to Winchester for another batch of 100, I added .1gr because I heard Winchester has more capacity. They fired fined, no pressure, good velocity, brass looks good. I was just checking the size of the shoulder on the new Lapua and they vary in length so they definitely need fire formed anyway. I'll have to grab some cheaper bullets to fire form with.

Can anyone comment on the difference between CCI 41s and CCI400s? I know the 41s have a harder cup but that's about it. Not sure how they react differently with the same powder charge. I also recently grabbed some Federal Gold Medal AR primers to try.

Just trying to figure out which brass and primer to use with which powder and bullet. I am working on 3 different loads for my 223 bolt gun.
75gr ELD 8208 XBR for tac PRS
80gr ELD N140 for 600y Any/Any high power
75gr BTHP Ramshot Tac for practice/fun

I've found some velocity plateaus and am testing seating depth next.

I have some other bullets to try but my time is limited. I'm wanting to use the Lapua for the High Power 80gr ELD load.
The Winchester ran great the last PRS match I shot with 75s, didn't sting losing a few cases.

jLorenzo said:

If I switch from LC to Lapua to I need to drop a grain or two off my charge weight? I remember hearing that Lapua had less case capacity?

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Personally, I'm too OCD and habitually sorting to let shit get mixed up. I don't know if I'm able to out-shoot one case vs. another yet. YMMV.
Bolt Action Reloading just did a youtube blah blah blah on it.
Maybe some useful information you can take from it.

MDof2 said:

Personally, I'm too OCD and habitually sorting to let shit get mixed up. I don't know if I'm able to out-shoot one case vs. another yet. YMMV.
Bolt Action Reloading just did a youtube blah blah blah on it.
Maybe some useful information you can take from it.

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The video fails in the first few seconds by attempting to correlate internal volume of the virgin case to anything meaningful. The internal volume is going to change as soon as the cartridge is fired and will then set externally to your chamber geometry. (~~ Might take more than one firing ~~) At that point, weight alone will dictate your internal volume.

jLorenzo said:

How would you compare Winchester? I switched from LC to Winchester for another batch of 100, I added .1gr because I heard Winchester has more capacity. They fired fined, no pressure, good velocity, brass looks good. I was just checking the size of the shoulder on the new Lapua and they vary in length so they definitely need fire formed anyway. I'll have to grab some cheaper bullets to fire form with.

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I know of no cases that are lighter than Winchester, so the corresponding observation you can make is that Winchester has the greatest inside volume. Many long range shooters prefer Winchester brass for this reason, just to get a few extra kernels in without exceeding pressure limits.

PracticalTactical said:

I know of no cases that are lighter than Winchester, so the corresponding observation you can make is that Winchester has the greatest inside volume. Many long range shooters prefer Winchester brass for this reason, just to get a few extra kernels in without exceeding pressure limits.

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I weighed my Lapua, LC and Winchester. Win was a grain or so lighter than LC, Lapua was a few grains heavier. So that sounds right.

Hey Guys hope your enjoying your holiday weekend. Just wondering if from personal experience do the 80SMKs benifit from "speeding up". Yes, that's a tough one to answer as we all have a different idea of "fast".
I'm shooting them out of a 1-7T 28" barrel @ if Memory serves me just under 2700FPS (23.6Varget).
So, just wondering if I should try speeding them up some.

TommyD11730 said:

Hey Guys hope your enjoying your holiday weekend. Just wondering if from personal experience do the 80SMKs benifit from "speeding up". Yes, that's a tough one to answer as we all have a different idea of "fast".
I'm shooting them out of a 1-7T 28" barrel @ if Memory serves me just under 2700FPS (23.6Varget).
So, just wondering if I should try speeding them up some.

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I see no reason not to run them faster as long as your brass looks good. I run 80gr ELDs at close to 3000 fps out of a 26", 5000" altitude. What is your COAL? Take a look at 8208 XBR, N140 and other powders also. I think if your round is long enough you could run some more Varget. I have no experience with the 80gr SMK but I want to get some if I ever find any. Haven't seen them for sale in a long time.
Also I have heard of some people using Leverevolution but you need to start low and work up as you can hit serious pressure if your not careful.

So..... I'm down to my last 80g SMKs. Don't see them listed for sale at all the usual places so I ordered some Berger 80.5 full bore.
What's the general consensus on them?
Thanks!

TommyD11730 said:

So..... I'm down to my last 80g SMKs. Don't see them listed for sale at all the usual places so I ordered some Berger 80.5 full bore.
What's the general consensus on them?
Thanks!

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For me Berger has shot just a little better than the smk’s. You won’t be disappointed

David

TommyD11730 said:

Hey Guys hope your enjoying your holiday weekend. Just wondering if from personal experience do the 80SMKs benifit from "speeding up". Yes, that's a tough one to answer as we all have a different idea of "fast".
I'm shooting them out of a 1-7T 28" barrel @ if Memory serves me just under 2700FPS (23.6Varget).
So, just wondering if I should try speeding them up some.

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I know it sounds careless, but the old timers at the base would say that you cannot stuff too much Varget into a 223 case with 80 grainers... As long at its not a compressed load.

PracticalTactical said:

I know it sounds careless, but the old timers at the base would say that you cannot stuff too much Varget into a 223 case with 80 grainers... As long at its not a compressed load.

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For me going up in charge only moved my SD higher. Yes, I was able to shoot them at 2900fps but at the distance I shoot it's a moot point.

Dstoenner said:

For me Berger has shot just a little better than the smk’s. You won’t be disappointed

David

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Good to hear. Guessing I'll start at jam, and confirm with software my initial charge.

I have used .020 off the lands and never jammed but i do chase the lands.

David

Not sure if I should ask this somewhere else but it seems relevant. If you had to pick one favorite powder for the 223/5.56 for 60-75gr bullets what would it be ?

IMR 4166
Hey guys trying to put a load together for a buddy using GRT. He's shooting a Axis Precision 223. He aquired some 69SMKs and 4166 powder. He had some once fired PPU cases so that's what we have to work with.
20 tho off the lands nets us a COAL of 2.363. Gordons is suggesting 24.3 grains will give us 2700+ FPS @ only 46k max pressure.
To me that seems off.
Just wondering your experiences with 4166.

Thanks!

My go-to load on this has been 24.5 grains of Varget and 80 SMKs at 0.045" off... 205Ms.

Details:

Odd chargers from the data file below.... total of 12 shots...

5.56mm

24.8gr XTerminator
69gr SMK
CCI450
LC Brass
2.260” COAL

Shoots great.

2635 FPS out of a 12.5” Noveske

Rob01 said:

Both of those are pretty conservitive especially if loading longer. I found my 75 ELD-M and 8208 load at 24.5grns but my OAL is 2.470". They give you a place to start and work with just like most manuals.

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My gun likes that very same load combo. 24.4 if its really hot out. I just did a seating depth test and found 1.952 CBTO shot the tightest.

Mauser48 said:

What are some good powders for lighter bullets? I'm going to load up some 53 vmax for varmints. I'd like to save my 8208 for the heavier rounds, and ideally I'd like to choose a ball powder for the lighter bullets. Something I don't have to bother with trickle charging when loading larger quantities of ammo. There's a lot of good powders for 223 it seems so maybe it doesn't matter much. I'm looking at tac and w748 mainly.

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I am going to try Tac with 62gr. I think its good for lighter than that, I was looking at xterminator but its real close to Tac with Tac allowing for more speed.

Mauser48 said:

Anyone have an opinion on my coal for the 80 eld?

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I'm gonna do a seating depth test with the 80s when I have time. I have the 75s figured out, I want to see the best I can do with 80s and then decide between the two. Really the 75s are pretty amazing and I don't think theres a ton to gain with the 80s but then again with 223 every little bit helps. I just gonna go with whichever shoots tighter/more consistently.

Trying the 80.5 Bergers, surprisingly seem more seating depth sensitive than the ELDs so far which is opposite of what I expected.

Rob01 said:

What chamber you have? I am at 1.900" CBTO and .020" off the lands in a .223 Wylde chamber.

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Rob01 said:

What chamber you have? I am at 1.900" CBTO and .020" off the lands in a .223 Wylde chamber.

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Not sure. Bought gun used, bore scoped it and looked to have barely been shot. Bartlien 26" M24 7.5 twist. I'm pretty sure its longer than a wylde. Just a guess based off comparing others data, I think its the .169 ISSF chamber.

Mauser48 said:

What are some good powders for lighter bullets? I'm going to load up some 53 vmax for varmints. I'd like to save my 8208 for the heavier rounds, and ideally I'd like to choose a ball powder for the lighter bullets. Something I don't have to bother with trickle charging when loading larger quantities of ammo. There's a lot of good powders for 223 it seems so maybe it doesn't matter much. I'm looking at tac and w748 mainly.

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IDK about lighter, but my rifle likes 24.7gr of TAC behind a 55g spitzer

There seems to be another node at 25.9gr in my 16" barrel

M

Norma brass
Hornady 75gr hpbt
25.3 blc-2
Cci 400
2910 fps / sd 6
This was my most consistent load with blc-2 26” proof barrel and tl3 action . Max pressure was over 3000 fps.

I have wanted to start an ar-15 load with a similar powder charge and same bullet. But has anyone used these dies with 5.56 nato? Do I need to buy new dies?

360precision said:

Norma brass
Hornady 75gr hpbt
25.3 blc-2
Cci 400
2910 fps / sd 6
This was my most consistent load with blc-2 26” proof barrel and tl3 action . Max pressure was over 3000 fps.

I have wanted to start an ar-15 load with a similar powder charge and same bullet. But has anyone used these dies with 5.56 nato? Do I need to buy new dies?

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The difference is in the throat, if those dies worked well for you before they will on 5.56

As 6.5SH stated, cartridge is the same, how the chamber throat area is cut changes. The Wylde chamber is a hybrid between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO chambers.

Hornady reloading lists the following for BL-C(2):
223 Rem No Listing for 75g bullets
223 Rem Service Rifle 20.2-24.9 @2700
5.56 NATO 22.2 to 26.5 @2900

You may get good results with the load you have in your AR as well.

BUT be careful about loading a hotter load for AR that looks identical as it could be easy to get a NATO load into your 223 by mistake.

I load 77g SMK for my AR, it is a mild load that matches the velocity of FGMM at 2623 from my Tikka T3X. It has a COAL of 2.254 to fit in an AR magazine.

I also load a 75g ELD-M at 2822 for the Tikka with a COAL of 2.435 for that specific rifle's chamber (0.010 jump) that I should not shoot in an AR. But since they have a different bullet and will not fit in an AR mag, I will not. The 75g ELD-M can not be loaded for an AR as bullet is too long to fit in AR magazine.

Point is you may not want to develop an identically looking load for your AR if you are going to push the velocity limits.

Anyone have a source for Sierra 80 Matchkings? Can't seem to find any at the usual spots.
I did pickup a bunch of Berger 80.5s but so far they don't shoot as good as the SMKs.
Thanks guys.

TrapperT said:

Re: Loads for .223- 5.56

20" MSTN SuperSAM Upper 1-8" twist (Lilja 3 groove barrel)
Lapua Brass
Rem 7 1/2 Primers
80 SMK (.015" off lands)
24.6 gr V140
2750fps

I shoot the identical load with 77gr BT Bergers (loaded to 2.25 OAL) and get 2780fps

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You're really able to load smk 80s all the way down to 2.250?

TommyD11730 said:

Anyone have a source for Sierra 80 Matchkings? Can't seem to find any at the usual spots.
I did pickup a bunch of Berger 80.5s but so far they don't shoot as good as the SMKs.
Thanks guys.

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How far are you jumping the 80.5s and what powder?

I stared at Jam and I think I have gone as far out as 15 tho.
Have another ladder test ready to go with more jump.
Powder is Varget.

TommyD11730 said:

I stared at Jam and I think I have gone as far out as 15 tho.
Have another ladder test ready to go with more jump.
Powder is Varget.

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I found the vlds like close to jam and the 80.5s and 85.5s like closer to 30 thou at least in my rifle but I had phenomenal results with n150 and 80.5s and 85.5s

The 80.5 have been a bust so far. Around .5" avg. That's double the group size of the 80smks.
Hope it comes together next time out.

Weird I had the exact opposite experience for me

TommyD11730 said:

Anyone shooting 80 grain SMKS at or around 24 grains of Varget? With them long ( 2.521" ) GRT is giving me an overpressure issue.
Thanks guys.

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What did you measure for your case weight in h2o?

TommyD11730 said:

Anyone shooting 80 grain SMKS at or around 24 grains of Varget? With them long ( 2.521" ) GRT is giving me an overpressure issue.
Thanks guys.

Click to expand...

What did you measure for your case weight in h2o

jLorenzo said:

If I switch from LC to Lapua to I need to drop a grain or two off my charge weight? I remember hearing that Lapua had less case capacity?

Click to expand...

I know some guys weigh the cases to check difference but I firmly believe in measuring fired cases in grain weight of h2o that's the most accurate weigh to measure case capacity imo

NFshooter150 said:

What did you measure for your case weight in h2o

I know some guys weigh the cases to check difference but I firmly believe in measuring fired cases in grain weight of h2o that's the most accurate weigh to measure case capacity imo

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OK, if each case does not resize the exact same amount because you get various amounts of spring back due to hardness variation... The outside dimensions will vary within a range and therefore the inside dimensions will vary within a range.

Assuming the water was a consistent and reliable system, meaning no air bubbles and all cases are evenly wet... What prevents the case from blowing out to the side wall of the chamber when fired.

I mean... under pressure the case will blow out to fit the chamber anyway... That brings us back to weight sorting the brass.

Why would you focus on the inside case volume when it represents a temporary state that changes under pressure?

PracticalTactical said:

OK, if each case does not resize the exact same amount because you get various amounts of spring back due to hardness variation... The outside dimensions will vary within a range and therefore the inside dimensions will vary within a range.

Assuming the water was a consistent and reliable system, meaning no air bubbles and all cases are evenly wet... What prevents the case from blowing out to the side wall of the chamber when fired.

I mean... under pressure the case will blow out to fit the chamber anyway... That brings us back to weight sorting the brass.

Why would you focus on the inside case volume when it represents a temporary state that changes under pressure?

Click to expand...

I was more or less just talking about if someone wants to switch from a LC piece of brass to a lapua you could just measure the h2o and see a big difference and from experience with the GRT program using a lot of different cases and h2o grain wt in the program it makes a big difference in pressure at least on their simulation..

Damn... guess I'll just have to go off which have the best numbers. Proof prefit 26" Impact 737 w/Dominus suppressor.

Niles Coyote said:

Damn... guess I'll just have to go off which have the best numbers. Proof prefit 26" Impact 737 w/Dominus suppressor.
View attachment 7937565

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Looks like a pretty solid node from 25.75 to 26.25 what chamber is that?

NFshooter150 said:

Looks like a pretty solid node from 25.75 to 26.25 what chamber is that?

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I believe it's a wylde chamber or close, this bullet hits the lands at about 2.520ish coal.

Niles Coyote said:

I believe it's a wylde chamber or close, this bullet hits the lands at about 2.520ish coal.

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Ya it probably is a wylde or some variant of a match chamber cause my mpa had a similar coal when hitting the lands.. I'm currently having a new barrel chambered with a custom 223ai reamer that has .080 freebore

NFshooter150 said:

I was more or less just talking about if someone wants to switch from a LC piece of brass to a lapua you could just measure the h2o and see a big difference and from experience with the GRT program using a lot of different cases and h2o grain wt in the program it makes a big difference in pressure at least on their simulation..

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That's legit.

I thought maybe you were "sorting" individual cases by water capacity. Some guys do that, rather than weight sorting.

Water capacity is great for providing a volumetric value for software load modeling software.

PracticalTactical said:

That's legit.

I thought maybe you were "sorting" individual cases by water capacity. Some guys do that, rather than weight sorting.

Water capacity is great for providing a volumetric value for software load modeling software.

Click to expand...

Ya no I don't do any weight sorting I just use lapua and Norma but mostly lapua

Anyone have a pet load for Tactical Rifle powder?

AR length, 55gr Sierras, once-fired range brass, CCI small rifle primers. I've got a few 60gr

Haven't seen anything specific about this specific powder... Virus kerfuffle ya know.

M

edited to add: found a pound of Winchester sta-bil 6.5. Bought some to try. Anyone else??

mikeshaw2 said:

Anyone have a pet load for Tactical Rifle powder?

AR length, 55gr Sierras, once-fired range brass, CCI small rifle primers. I've got a few 60gr

Haven't seen anything specific about this specific powder... Virus kerfuffle ya know.

M

edited to add: found a pound of Winchester sta-bil 6.5. Bought some to try. Anyone else??

Click to expand...

You might need something alot heavier for the sta ball.. its pretty slow

NFshooter150 said:

You might need something alot heavier for the sta ball.. its pretty slow

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sta-ball is for the 6.5CM

Right after I posted that, I wondered if someone was going to mention that

M