Physical Fitness Deadlifts?

Better hope your form is perfect... I know so many people who have blown their lower back out trying to get a PR and sacrifice a hint of form and are forever done for

I used to do pyramid sets. Something like 8-6-4-6-8 with increased weight to the middle then removing weight on the way back down. When full set was easy to complete I’d start adding on. It sort of naturally grows. I was never a guy who looked much at maxes though.

Huskydriver said:

Better hope your form is perfect... I know so many people who have blown their lower back out trying to get a PR and sacrifice a hint of form and are forever done for

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100x this.

SledDog said:

I used to do pyramid sets. Something like 8-6-4-6-8 with increased weight to the middle then removing weight on the way back down. When full set was easy to complete I’d start adding on. It sort of naturally grows. I was never a guy who looked much at maxes though.

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On the big 3 (bench, deadlift, squat) I do a 3-4-5 pyramid in 12 week cycles with a 1 week break in between.

Basically looks like this. First find your current max.

Week 1

3x5 at 70% of max
3x4 at 70% + 5 lbs
3x3 at 70% + 10

Week 2

3x5 at 70% + 5
3x4 at 70% + 10
3x3 at 70% + 15

Week 3

3x5 at 70% + 10
3x4 at 70% + 15
3x3 at 70% + 20

I think k you get the picture. At the end of 12 weeks do another max test and start over. Been successful for me when I used it.

ETA……and obviously if these interval increases aren’t challenging enough you can increase the weight. The 5 lb increases work well on bench. You could probably double it or triple for dead and squat.

Huskydriver said:

Better hope your form is perfect... I know so many people who have blown their lower back out trying to get a PR and sacrifice a hint of form and are forever done for

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yup, this was me, fucked my lower back up real good. I wasn’t using much weight at all either.

wvfarrier said:

Thats my concern as well so I am "trying" to be cautious

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Get a good belt. Follow Jeff cavaliere on you tube. Athleanx. His videos will keep you healthy and show you the best form.

500 seems like an advanced lift for someone in your weight class. Be careful. Check out the Starting Strength how to videos for proper form.

Go to a salvage yard and dig thru the pile of engine blocks looking for the good one.
You'll get stronger.

TacticalDillhole said:

Get a good belt. Follow Jeff cavaliere on you tube. Athleanx. His videos will keep you healthy and show you the best form.

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I like that guy too. For alternative functional strength training check out the Bioneer as well.

The Starting Strength method suggests 5lb increases until you stall out, and then the programming will get a bit more complicated.

Most people will never be consistent enough to truly stall; it takes months of grinding to do so, and even those dedicated to regular workouts will find that life interferes too often. I was on a hell of a tear in the weight room last winter until a bout of food poisoning took me out for nearly a month, and erased a half-year of progress (11 days straight of hourly liquid shits is kinda catabolic). That's life.

I'm roughly your age, and I train deadlift 1x/week and squats 1x/week (preferably with at least two days rest between). Sometimes I'll sneak in a second workout of one or the other at the tail end of the week. But I'm also putting 4000 miles/year on bicycles, so there's a bit more fatigue in my legs than the typical gym rat. I used to try to do those lifts on the same day and more than once a week, and found that was a good way to get hurt.

I won't talk anyone out of lifting heavy at your age - long-term, you'll be better off than the guys who are either scared of weights or who already broke themselves at a younger age. Just remember that healing takes way longer now than it did 20 years ago, and taking a few months off to rehab a torn muscle or tendonitis will result in slower progress than a conservative approach of tiny incremental gains and proper volume. You're up against Father Time; be respectful of his record (undefeated to date). You won't win, but you sure as hell can drag out the match longer by being smart.

100% my favorite movement.

My PR is 425(raw, no straps or help of any kind), and that came at the end of a back day with my cousin who is no slouch in the gym. I had 455 halfway up but I was just too exhausted

I don’t have any set structuring advice to give. Get in the gym, load up the plates, and yank that motherfucker off the floor

Speaking of Jeff Cavaliere, he just did a good video on one of his employees that he's made massive improvement with.

I hit 505 at the end of last year, after about 8 months of aggressive training and lots of pull days. There are a lot of different programs out there, but the idea is to add weight as well as volume. I would do 20x at 225 or 10x at 315 for a few sets, to break up the training a little bit. That's just me, so you have to do what works for you. Also I would have a pull movement of some kind every single day.

It's absolutely doable. One day you'll walk in the gym and know it's going to happen right now. Then it's all worth it!

E. Bryant said:

Just remember that healing takes way longer now than it did 20 years ago.

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Ain’t that the fuckin truth. Also, don’t forget to eat.

Call me when those discs shoot out the back. You guys and cross fitters keep me getting paid.

High weight, low reps. As others said. Your form is everything.

The night prior, morning of and for lunch before deadlift day, I will eat a lot of carbs like oatmeal, potatoes, and rice. I am very sensitive to my carb intake on leg and deadlift day and it is very apparent when I didn’t eat enough of them.

I’ve watched a lot of people destroy their backs doing deadlifts with what many would consider modest weight. You should practice getting your form down with light weight (IE probably lighter than what you would consider your warm up weight) before moving up to heavy weight (especially near or at max), where it may take you several seconds to achieve full extension and is very easy to let your form go form to get there. Your back should remain flat the whole time. If you feel it start to “bow”, stop, lower the weight, and work on form.

Shoes make a difference. No shoes, or shoes with no/very hard soles are good. I usually lift in Vibram Minimus or Chucks. Wrestling shoes work well too. Platform shoes are too expensive for my taste. If you try to deadlift in running shoes, the beginning of your pull essentially becomes you compressing your shoes before you start moving weight. It is very noticeable, especially when above 75% of your max, in my opinion.

Don’t overwork yourself. Your recovery is as, if not more, important than your workout. Overwork yourself and you will start going backwards in strength. Good sleep and quality meals with quality nutrients is the way.

Huskydriver said:

Better hope your form is perfect... I know so many people who have blown their lower back out trying to get a PR and sacrifice a hint of form and are forever done for

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Yep, this ^^...blow out a disk, rip a distal bicep tendon, etc.

I gently suggest you establish a relationship with a good neuro/ortho surgeon.

Ask me how I know.

Cheers

I was "racing" with large tires at the gym, and tore something in my lower back. Took me off lifting anything for 4 months.

Don't risk injury. Not worth it.

Get in some speed work off the floor. Front squats with good form will help you keep your scapulae in your back pocket when you’re fighting to lock out heavy weight. Lots of loaded Carrie’s for traps and lats….and grip strength

wvfarrier said:

I have recently become obsessed with deadlifts. My goal is 500#, I am currently at 375 max and doing 300 (warm up), 345 and then 360 for my sets. My question: How often should I push for an increase? None of my joints are complaining about the exercise (well, anymore than normal). Im doing them twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays.
Im 47 (almost 48) and weigh in at 176#.

This is actually the most I have ever worked this particular exercise. Im trying to focus on form and not met my ego get in the way.

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Check out Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 program for pure progress. He will scale you back to working with percentages of you 3-rep max, not 1-RM and you will feel silly moving such relatively little weight for weeks. But the proof is when you go check your new maxes. It’s up to you to figure out your accessory work. Or do none at all. But it’s a legit program for just progressing. It won’t prep you for a powerlifting meet but it’s perfect for working folks

It's obvious, but just as a reminder, remember to focus on your core. It connects your upper and lower and is the limiting factor for a lot of people in regards to deadlifts.

I remember a pro lifter stating dead lifts aren't worth the risk... no pro athlete does them...

I'd reconsider your goal. Unless you have to hit that 500 number... not sure why risk injury over it. Focus on PR something that will give you better gains like mtb race, triathlon, etc

pineoak said:

It's obvious, but just as a reminder, remember to focus on your core. It connects your upper and lower and is the limiting factor for a lot of people in regards to deadlifts.

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Was just about to type this myself. Been working on my core now for almost a year to help with low back and it’s helped tremendously.

I am a big fan of wendler method of training 5-3-1, it seems slow but consistency makes progress. I achieved the same goal at 215lbs with a 500 lb D/L as my goal. My biggest recomendation is listen to you body, figure out what muscles needs work ( lower back, errectors, even grip strength) and fix those issues. I was pushing for a 600+ d/l before life took over ( 2 kids,new house and etc) but its doable but you need to work weak muscles to help and maintain form.

I typically do DL once/week, same with Squat. I make sure to up the weight every week, even if it's just 5 or 10 lbs. Got my squat to 500x4 doing that over about a 8 month period.

I really like Jeff Nippard's powerbuilding program.

When you go to recheck your max, make sure you go to Planet Fitness so you can eat a bunch of pizza and a couple smoothies beforehand to front load some carbs. Oh and set up to record yourself so we can see when the Lunk alarm goes off so we can all laugh at the d-bags who think a gym is a library. Chalk. Lots of chalk. Make sure it goes all over everywhere. You won’t have to clean it up when they kick you out.

Dot3 said:

When you go to recheck your max, make sure you go to Planet Fitness so you can eat a bunch of pizza and a couple smoothies beforehand to front load some carbs. Oh and set up to record yourself so we can see when the Lunk alarm goes off so we can all laugh at the d-bags who think a gym is a library. Chalk. Lots of chalk. Make sure it goes all over everywhere. You won’t have to clean it up when they kick you out.

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This guy gets it

No one has said it yet so I will. Train for functional strength increases. Build quad mass. Get those glutei ready for swim suit season. Develop that hollywood grip. But, outside of competitive weight lifting, training to an arbitrary weight number is (at best) retarded. Setting an arbitrary goal is potentially dangerous, especially as you get older- there is a reason they say that getting old is not for the young. There are approaching 8 Billion people on the planet, and precisely 1 (one, un, uno) cares about how much you dead lift. There is no Guinness Book of Personal Records. It is right there with your number of confirmed bow kills, your years in concrete, and your collection of polished velcro sneakers.

hlee said:

No one has said it yet so I will. Train for functional strength increases. Build quad mass. Get those glutei ready for swim suit season. Develop that hollywood grip. But, outside of competitive weight lifting, training to an arbitrary weight number is (at best) retarded. Setting an arbitrary goal is potentially dangerous, especially as you get older- there is a reason they say that getting old is not for the young. There are approaching 8 Billion people on the planet, and precisely 1 (one, un, uno) cares about how much you dead lift. There is no Guinness Book of Personal Records. It is right there with your number of confirmed bow kills, your years in concrete, and your collection of polished velcro sneakers.

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You can’t shine Velcro sneakers.

TacticalDillhole said:

You can’t shine Velcro sneakers.

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Not with that attitude...

Deadlifts are an excellent practical and functional lift that can benefit most any healthy individual. Form MUST be spot on. Lifting near max is not necessary for the benefits. Regular moderate intensity deadlifts increase all around strength, develop the entire posterior chain and protect the back against injuries. Focus on form cannot be more important. I've deadlifted off and on for 35 years. The only injury I've ever had related to deadlifts was a partially torn calf muscle and it was excruciating. That was five years ago and I still have no idea how it happened. I rehabbed the calf and still do calf strenghthening and stretches as part of every workout. Done with focus and strict form deadlifts are an awesome movement.

wvfarrier said:

I had my wife (who specializes in spine surgery) observe my form last night. She says I maintained proper form until I hit 350 and then started arching my back so I am going to be more aware and use lower weight

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Use those lower weights and move them as fast as you can. I think I’ve read somewhere around 35-40% 1RM is where you need to be to train power production. Don’t overlook power cleans. Lower chance of getting hurt bc the weight must be considerably lower until you have the pattern dialed (if you miss the clean just drop the bar. Even at planet fitness). Snatch grip dead’s are great for getting off the floor too. That really pushes your thoracic extension and gets your hips closer to the floor. I like them better than pulling off blocks. Once again, much lower weight. Work on your hook grip. You don’t have to train the conventional deadlift at max intensity in order to improve your conventional deadlift

TacticalDillhole said:

You can’t shine Velcro sneakers.

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Wanna bet?

waveslayer said:

I remember a pro lifter stating dead lifts aren't worth the risk... no pro athlete does them...

I'd reconsider your goal. Unless you have to hit that 500 number... not sure why risk injury over it. Focus on PR something that will give you better gains like mtb race, triathlon, etc

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As someone who competes in endurance events (mostly cycling), I certainly wouldn't say that they provide "better gains". Singular focus on cycling is a great way to get monster quads and underdeveloped everything else, exclusively running destroys knees and backs, etc etc etc.

The older I get, the more I appreciate an all-of-the-above approach to training in order to avoid the sort of problems that seem to crop up when narrowly focusing on one activity to the exclusion of other useful modalities.

E. Bryant said:

As someone who competes in endurance events (mostly cycling), I certainly wouldn't say that they provide "better gains". Singular focus on cycling is a great way to get monster quads and underdeveloped everything else, exclusively running destroys knees and backs, etc etc etc.

The older I get, the more I appreciate an all-of-the-above approach to training in order to avoid the sort of problems that seem to crop up when narrowly focusing on one activity to the exclusion of other useful modalities.

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I'm referring to the risk versus reward. Deadlifts don't have a great track record or risk versus reward especially compared to road bikes. Main issue is improper technique. No doubt long sustained injuries from repetitive use of knees etc.. that's why treadmills aren't the best either. Running outside to use uneven surfaces reduce wear on knees ans ankles by using all parts of the joints, not the same part over and over on a consistent treadmill and point of impact on your body... but we are splitting hairs

waveslayer said:

I'm referring to the risk versus reward. Deadlifts don't have a great track record or risk versus reward especially compared to road bikes. Main issue is improper technique. No doubt long sustained injuries from repetitive use of knees etc.. that's why treadmills aren't the best either. Running outside to use uneven surfaces reduce wear on knees ans ankles by using all parts of the joints, not the same part over and over on a consistent treadmill and point of impact on your body... but we are splitting hairs

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Overtraining or improper training in any single modality is going to be painful - perhaps permanently - for anyone in the 40+ category.

At this point, my focus has mostly shifted from setting PRs to doing stuff that will pay off 10, 20, 30 years later. (The exception here are my times on a handful of local mountain bike routes, but as I get deeper into the late 40s my ability to improve is quickly coming to an end.) Maintaining cardiovascular fitness is important. Maintaining muscle mass is important. Improving flexibility is on that list. Avoiding a low testosterone/cortisol ratio is critical. I can go backwards on almost all of those things simultaneously by exclusively performing a "safe" workout - be it deadlifts or running or swimming or pickleball.

I guess at this point, I'm less likely to criticize anyone in his 40s for pursuing a physical goal, even if it's not one that I myself am pursuing. Beats the hell out of riding the couch and draining a six-pack every night.

Good post....the key part, IMO, is:

BLEE said:

Lifting near max is not necessary for the benefits. Regular moderate intensity deadlifts increase all around strength

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wvfarrier said:

I have recently become obsessed with deadlifts. My goal is 500#, I am currently at 375 max and doing 300 (warm up), 345 and then 360 for my sets. My question: How often should I push for an increase? None of my joints are complaining about the exercise (well, anymore than normal). Im doing them twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays.
Im 47 (almost 48) and weigh in at 176#.

This is actually the most I have ever worked this particular exercise. Im trying to focus on form and not met my ego get in the way.

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The big question is:

Conventional or sumo


Next question:

Are you throwing singles into your current routine


Third:

Do you have a belt, figure eights, and long socks


Fourth:

For all people I start them off light in weight, scraping shins, knee caps, thighs...all the way up, and all the way down for conventional. I personally don't even mess with sumo THOUGH it does put your back in a better starting position


Fifth:

You need to be pushing forward with your hips. Start doing glute raises, that motion will pay dividends on your ability to break through stall points



I could go on, but this is a good starting point.

wvfarrier said:

I had my wife (who specializes in spine surgery) observe my form last night. She says I maintained proper form until I hit 350 and then started arching my back so I am going to be more aware and use lower weight

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Arching your back is not necessarily a bad thing, but you must condition and strengthen, first. Watch video of some world class powerlifters. They usually arch their backs, but it is still very controlled and only in a specific part of the movement.

Train for long term health. Not chasing numbers.

If you're a farrier, your back is your livelihood. Agree deadlifts are good for you, because you get the full range of the motion that you're otherwise stuck in all day. However, I would recommend, especially at 47, perfect sets of 20 reps, where the last 5 are mind over matter. Whatever weight that is, so be it. 1 heavy day per month of say, 8 rep sets, is probably fine to work in, but anything under 6 reps is no longer a good idea. You're no longer a spring chicken, and it's just Russian roulette at this point.

I was a competitive power lifter back in my late teens and early 20s in the World Natural Powerlifting Federation. Like others mentioned, form for heavy deadlifts are super important. In 1998, I was 23 and in the 148 (144 on comp day) weight class and my max deadlift in comp was 435. I placed first at the worlds in the WNPF in the Junior division. My max squat at worlds was 420 and I benched 285 (missed 305). I've been dealing with mid back issues for the last 10+ years, but it's a high probability I had some injury due to competitions that didn't surface until later. I haven't done any competing or super heavy stuff since then, but I probably wouldn't do it again if I could do it over. I would definitely train (and still do), but not compete.

I don't know others' experience, but I didn't do any direct ab/core work while I was pushing for heavy lifts. But when I started again, I was crushing all the typical 'core' workouts I had done before. So I wouldn't worry about it!

HitEmHard said:

I don't know others' experience, but I didn't do any direct ab/core work while I was pushing for heavy lifts. But when I started again, I was crushing all the typical 'core' workouts I had done before. So I wouldn't worry about it!

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There's a theory which says that the basic heavy lifts provide sufficient load to train the core. Probably true for movements along the sagittal plane, but I wouldn't depend upon only a heavy dose of deadlifts and squats to do much for movements along the lateral or transverse planes.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some (if not all) of the back problems reported by those doing heavy barbell lifts comes from the lack of training along these secondary planes. Even though good form in the squat rack doesn't involve any twisting or side-to-side movement, the rest of real life sure as hell does.

E. Bryant said:

There's a theory which says that the basic heavy lifts provide sufficient load to train the core. Probably true for movements along the sagittal plane, but I wouldn't depend upon only a heavy dose of deadlifts and squats to do much for movements along the lateral or transverse planes.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some (if not all) of the back problems reported by those doing heavy barbell lifts comes from the lack of training along these secondary planes. Even though good form in the squat rack doesn't involve any twisting or side-to-side movement, the rest of real life sure as hell does.

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Here’s just an n=1 about me. My core workouts were mostly sporadic when I was in the thick of my gym life. I definitely did some and at times I was pretty consistent with it but it definitely wasn’t a focus. I also never used a belt, knee wraps, or supportive shoes. In fact, probably half of my time in gyms I wore Vibram five fingers shoes. And it’s what I was wearing during my heaviest deadlifting and squaring days. All I ever did was focus strictly on good posture and form. *bonks head with fist* Knock on wood, I’ve never had any major back or knee problems. I know this doesn’t really mean much but it’s my experience