Dillon will finance your purchase for only a "small" fee

It’s a brilliant strategy. You are one of maybe 2 people who will actually read the terms

ditter said:

Was about to buy a Dillon 750 for 9mm. Total cost was $1,500 including shipping. As I was doing the checkout, I hit the Credova Financing button just for the heck of it, since they had a 90-day interest-free offer. It seemed cool as I could pay $500 per month and be done in three months. Of course, I was expecting the rip off rate of 28.99% APR if you don't pay it off in 90 days. I have really good credit, so I went through the instant approval process and was given a $2,500 credit line. Awesome. Until you read the fine print.

As it turns out, the financing is not a line of credit. It's a lease deal. You lease the Dillon for 24 months, then at the end of the lease, you pay an "acquisition" fee. The terms were 24 months at about $130 per month. Then at the end of the lease, you pay a $218 acquisition fee. So the total cost of the payments and the acquisition fee is $3,318. Yes, you read that right. $3,318 in total payments for a machine that costs $1,500, which translates to a 93% APR.

Anyway, I laughed, politely clicked the "No Thanks" button and moved on. Seems like a silly business strategy to me. They have a great product and great customer service. Why couple that with loan shark finance rates? If they "only" charged 28% APR like every other retail rip off card, they would probably be fine. I'm assuming a 93% APR will only turn people away from the purchase.

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Meanwhile Scott Tucker sits in a prison cell.

DevilDocAZ said:

Meanwhile Scott Tucker sits in a prison cell.

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Now that is a great reference

Most likely it is Progressive Leasing, they've been running this scam for years, they don't release any details until you make them and basically pay 100% interest. They get around Usury interest laws by making it a Lease.

This is suuuuuuper annoying that they're so scummy and low like that. Really makes me want to not buy another Dillon. I suppose it bothers some people more than others. Maybe I just have a distaste for crude and corporate style hustling, call me crazy lol.

Several local gun shops here in town are using the same credova outfit. Not sure the fine print is the same, but i would imagine it is

Nothing like an extortion racket to increase the bottom line. Makes me want to run out to buy a Dillon press.....not.

Honestly this probably has nothing to due with Dillon. I would imagine that they were approached by the company to offer financing and saw it as a way to sell more machines to people who didn't have the cash on hand and don't have any idea how the company dictated the terms to the end consumer. Even if Dillon is aware of the terms it doesn't really matter due to the reasons mentioned in the next paragraph.

Is it scummy that the financing company does this. (Kinda/ kinda not) since this is a free market economy where any company can sell a product or service at whatever terms they see fit and it is on you as the consumer to decide if that works for them. As always what is right for one consumer is not right for a different one. Just like I'm sure you have friends that you think spend their money like an idiot and vice-versa.

As always when signing a lease or financing paperwork the due diligence is on the person signing the paperwork. If someone signs something without reading the terms and is unhappy with it later, they have no one to blame but themselves for being stupid. This may not be a super popular opinion but to think that someone out there that you don't know is going to do whats in the best financial sense for you and not themselves is stupid.

Just to put it out there I am not related to or own an Dillon products. The statement above is my personal opinion and the financing option that is being discussed would not stop me from purchasing what is widely regarded as the best consumer level progressive press on the market. But for the record I would not use the financing option.

Dschapp44 said:

Honestly this probably has nothing to due with Dillon. I would imagine that they were approached by the company to offer financing and saw it as a way to sell more machines to people who didn't have the cash on hand and don't have any idea how the company dictated the terms to the end consumer. Even if Dillon is aware of the terms it doesn't really matter due to the reasons mentioned in the next paragraph.

Is it scummy that the financing company does this. (Kinda/ kinda not) since this is a free market economy where any company can sell a product or service at whatever terms they see fit and it is on you as the consumer to decide if that works for them. As always what is right for one consumer is not right for a different one. Just like I'm sure you have friends that you think spend their money like an idiot and vice-versa.

As always when signing a lease or financing paperwork the due diligence is on the person signing the paperwork. If someone signs something without reading the terms and is unhappy with it later, they have no one to blame but themselves for being stupid. This may not be a super popular opinion but to think that someone out there that you don't know is going to do whats in the best financial sense for you and not themselves is stupid.

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I concur with this 100%. The unfortunate part is Americans in general think it's ok to finance everything now(cars/cell phone/etc) and their lifestyles i.e., credit card. Sadly, most don't have the financial wherewithal to do basic financial modeling to figure out they are way in over their heads. The biggest threat to Americans is not Russia, it's the debt we've put ourselves in spending tomorrow's dollar.

If your financing a Dillon then your in the wrong sport.

I'm so glad that the Federal Reserve has ruined my ability to earn a decent rate of return on savings, while the market has provided the opportunity for a completely ass-raping on discretionary purchases. This should end well.

Dillon may not be directly responsible for this instance of loan sharking, but they need to understand that they are spending reputation for the purpose of increasing sales in the short term. Hopefully that is a good fit with their business model.

Wish Brian Enos was still selling Dillon. Fair and fast with free shipping.

pmclaine said:

Wish Brian Enos was still selling Dillon. Fair and fast with free shipping.

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Yea and if you sent a MO or cash it was even a better deal.

that’s where I bought mine.

Only eight more payments on my throw lever and it'll be all mine.

I have rather strong feelings regarding those who love to financially enslave their fellow humans for profit.
it is usually those with the least resources that are bled dry over and over.

Lots won't agree with me, but if I get a chance to be a part of rebuilding a better society, I'm going to work strenuously to make sure nothing is left or carried over from the entire "financial system" we currently have and it's rebuilt in a much smaller more controlled manner that is designed purely to facilitate trade between other parties and not to allow the "facilitators" to grow rich and powerful on the backs of others.

No one is forcing people into financial slavery.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

With that said, anybody that finances their press like this has most likely either already maxed out their credit cards, or are using stolen ID and credit info and not planning on actually paying for it to begin with.

I still do not understand why Dillon would accept having a finance deal like that “attached” to their name or website to begin with.

918v said:

No one is forcing people into financial slavery.

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As you wish to think.

But the time will eventually come that those who think they can without consequence financially enslave their fellow men if they can somehow trick them or convince them into it and expect the law to help enforce it, will instead find themselves dealt with very harshly and made an example of to warn future generations.

Dschapp44 said:

Now that is a great reference

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Raced against that guys team. Had a bunch of buddies that put away a LOT of money working for him. IN the 80's and 90's in IMSA it was weed and cocaine. In the late O's and teen's it was casinos and pay day lending. Oh the stories I heard of the amount of cash that was getting pumped through that team!

W54/XM-388 said:

As you wish to think.

But the time will eventually come that those who think they can without consequence financially enslave their fellow men if they can somehow trick them or convince them into it and expect the law to help enforce it, will instead find themselves dealt with very harshly and made an example of to warn future generations.

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Like what happened during the 60’s Cultural Revolution in China?

Walked into a pet store recently and over heard a couple getting pre-approved to buy a dog and had a 3k limit. They spent every fucking dime. I wanted to slap them for having two kids and needing to finance a third dependent.

There is a difference in being able to buy something, and being able to afford it. And If you cannot afford to pay cash for it, you cannot afford it, period.

918v said:

Like what happened during the 60’s Cultural Revolution in China?

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I was thinking a bit more ancient really old school brutality, but I could slum it with only partial brutality.

Financial tools are like any other tool. They have benefits. They can be misused. There are a lot of nice guns in the gun store I’d like to have. But I can’t afford all of them. I do have the financial resources to buy them, but wisdom dictates I shouldn’t.

Remember people buying houses 10 years ago with next to nothing down and very low monthly payments for the first five years? They lost the house or walked away and then blamed predatory lending.

That’s the reality of usury.

SkyScrapin said:

Walked into a pet store recently and over heard a couple getting pre-approved to buy a dog and had a 3k limit. They spent every fucking dime. I wanted to slap them for having two kids and needing to finance a third dependent.

There is a difference in being able to buy something, and being able to afford it. And If you cannot afford to pay cash for it, you cannot afford it, period.

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House and maybe a GOOD education are the only exceptions. In my book.

Nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to sign a promissory note with terrible terms, especially on a totally discretionary purchase.

That’s a choice; choices have consequences.

Total Money Makeover is available at just about every public library in the country, and while I’m not a Ramsey diehard there’s much to be said about appreciating what you have and living below your means.

Class warfare is horseshit.

918v said:

Remember people buying houses 10 years ago with next to nothing down and very low monthly payments for the first five years? They lost the house or walked away and then blamed predatory lending.

That’s the reality of usury.

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Except that it wasn't quite that simple.....
Great way to defend your banking overlords by the way......

You are forgetting that many people were told one thing and then hidden in the fine print on the huge stacks of paper to sign was something very different, or when the forms that were physically signed seemed to somehow have different information on them than what the lending brokers sent back to the bundlers.....

One of my friends even had her bank try to claim her fixed rate mortgage was actually variable and she had to force them to produce the original signed loan paperwork, otherwise they were going to try to stick her with paying whatever they wanted, or take the house.

Or little things like sneakily claiming skyrocketing rates were due to some London Interbank rate instead of the basically free money the government was shoveling you... then when you get convicted of manipulating the "rates" for your own gain.... so sorry no refunds to the actual homeowners you fleeced......

Sure people may have expected a small interest rate rise, but suggesting they should have foreseen someone almost doubling their payments overnight is a bit of a stretch.

The simple truth is the public, the homeowners and the taxpayers were taken for everything possible, to make sure the banking overlords didn't have to deal with the consequences of their own greedy actions.

Then when you make multi billion dollar agreements with the government to get out of all the crimes you perpetrated over the "crisis" including huge piles of fraudulently notarized documents, so that of course none of the real people in charge ever have to be bothered... you raise your "user fees" across the board and get the poor guys to help you recover the "fines" you paid the government to make it all go away.

It's been that way for a long time if you care to look. Your banking overlords are all about "Our private profits" when they make money, and all about "Government helping support the banking system to prevent a crash" when your gambles turn out badly. Same old story, the richest of the rich get richer of the backs of everyone else, including those that felt rich.

The entire "housing crisis" business didn't need to happen. If the government wasn't fully controlled by the banking overlords, it would not have been hard to spread the pain out a bit more evenly and tell the banks that they will just have to be happy with smaller profits instead of record windfalls.

I’m not defending banks. And I’m not saying there were not any abuses. There have been abuses and will be abuses. But if it were not for the poor judgment of those who bought too much house for too little $$$ using financial tools they should not have been using, there would not have been a housing crisis.

Mostly all of those people were betting on the market. They thought they would sit on the house for 5 years, sell it for a huge profit before their payment doubled, and walk away.

If you check your mortgage paperwork there is a document showing a schedule of payments throughout the life of the loan. These people were on notice of what the payments would be and when.

I went through this in 2004 and saw my brother going through this a couple years later. People bought houses they could not afford.

Sure, the lenders provided the loans. Never mind they were under Clinton holdover federal regulator pressure to make these loans. Not that I’m racist or anything, but it all started when banks were forced to make home loans to minority clients who could not afford them. They created financial mechanisms to do this and then everyone else got in on it. The banks, knowing this was not sustainable, bundled and sold these loans to investors.

The banks never wanted to make these loans. The Feds made them.

918v said:

No one is forcing people into financial slavery.

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Like my dad always said ; "if you don't have the money it's never a 'good' deal."

Actually these loans paid huge commissions and banks typically bought all the loans they could. They were packaged into derivatives and floated on the open market. But you know who the biggest “investors” were? Banks, which is why Lehman and bear stearns went under. Others like Goldman got wind of what was going on later in the game and started laying off their risk which is why the credit swap market exploded.

Cascade Hemi said:

Only eight more payments on my throw lever and it'll be all mine.

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For an acquisition fee of $59.99.

I understand why they (the financing company, not Dillon) are doing this lease thing. Any time you are doing consumer credit/lending, you have to abide by a whole host of both state and federal regulations. One such set of regs falls under what is called Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices - or UDAP. One of the thing UDAP does is make sure things like effective APR are clearly stated and that when an interest rate is in place, it does not exceed certain values.

It looks like they are doing an equipment lease instead of a loan to get around some of these limits/regulations. I can't remember exactly what the APR limit is, but I'm pretty sure 93% exceeds it. Shady.

Kadams1563 said:

If your financing a Dillon then your in the wrong sport.

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Yeah. This x 1000. I see something, make a goal to purchase it in x months, etc. Save, purchase.

Rinse repeat. Not that hard.

clcustom1911 said:

Yeah. This x 1000. I see something, make a goal to purchase it in x months, etc. Save, purchase.

Rinse repeat. Not that hard.

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How many months did you save to buy your house in cash? new car? college tuition?

I understand what you're getting at, but personally I think theres more to financial decisions than that. Simply financing something is not a sign of poor financial management, nor does it mean you don't have the money.

I financed my used motorcycle and I had plenty of cash on hand to purchase. I chose to finance because:
1.) $100 a month is easier to swallow than $6k in one go.
2.) it put more balance to my debt to income ratio, improving my credit score...especially since I plan on refinancing my house in 2 years when my fiance is added to my mortgage/deed.
3.) builds more rapport with my bank (local bank).
4.) its keeps an extra $6k of liquid cash for emergencies...seeing as I own a house by myself, that was a smart move. Over the last year, I've actually saved more money, so I put $6k into my mutual fund account....which by the way made 19.57% this year. My interest rate on my motorcycle loan is 3.4%....

I think its easy to say that only stupid people who make poor decisions finance lower cost items.. Does that happen? of course it does, and it annoys me as much as anyone.

In the firearm community we look to companies who provide good services to maintain good reputations. Dillon has a corner on the progressive press world. Now BY NO MEANS am I saying they SHOULDN"T be allowed to "scam" people. That is their prerogative.

I'm saying its f**king low. Theres so many good companies out there that do right by us, provide fair and balanced services for a quality rate, benefiting us and keeping themselves in business and reasonably profitable. It gives Dillon a crappy reputation and makes its seem like they don't give two shits about the firearm community.

And for those saying Dillon "didn't know" I call horse dung on that. I help run a medium sized business and we don't agree to anything without knowing exactly what is being provided...ESPECIALLY if its going to our customers.

Just my $0.02... great discussion everyone! lol

It's a good thing you read the fine print.

caselounsbery said:

It's a good thing you read the fine print.

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Uhhm, yes....fine print and details matter....

Oh yes. Such traps are the first thing I pay attention to. Of course, just in case, I also show it to Mortgage Broker Swindon, who always advises me on any loan-related matters. Yes, I've become more financially literate after years of paying off mortgages and taking out various loans. I probably would have noticed that sneaky little paragraph from Dillon if I were you too. But you know, you should never overestimate your diligence. When it comes to larger loans or mortgages, like on a car, I always give the paperwork to my broker for review. It's better to have insurance than to give money for some unfair shit later.

Dschapp44 said:

Honestly this probably has nothing to due with Dillon. I would imagine that they were approached by the company to offer financing and saw it as a way to sell more machines to people who didn't have the cash on hand and don't have any idea how the company dictated the terms to the end consumer. Even if Dillon is aware of the terms it doesn't really matter due to the reasons mentioned in the next paragraph.

Is it scummy that the financing company does this. (Kinda/ kinda not) since this is a free market economy where any company can sell a product or service at whatever terms they see fit and it is on you as the consumer to decide if that works for them. As always what is right for one consumer is not right for a different one. Just like I'm sure you have friends that you think spend their money like an idiot and vice-versa.

As always when signing a lease or financing paperwork the due diligence is on the person signing the paperwork. If someone signs something without reading the terms and is unhappy with it later, they have no one to blame but themselves for being stupid. This may not be a super popular opinion but to think that someone out there that you don't know is going to do whats in the best financial sense for you and not themselves is stupid.

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We don't live in a free market economy and anyone who thinks we do, is a fucking moron.

This is predatory lending, plain and simple with terms Obfuscation to confuse people.

Any one saying reading the terms/paperwork is easy is also a moron. Even if you have a JD, half the shit is difficult to understand with various jurisdictions and claims that may be legal, true or not. If you can't clearly lay out the terms in a few sentances so the average person can understand, then you are trying to fuck someone. If you bury the terms in 20 pages of fine print, then you are trying to fuck someone.

People, entities and corporations like that all deserve to be beaten to death with hammers.

918v said:

No one is forcing people into financial slavery.

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When the majority of the population is financially illiterate, it shows your statement to be wrong.

There is a reason they don't teach these basic life skills in school. Harder to control/enslave people who understand how the system works.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

When the majority of the population is financially illiterate, it shows your statement to be wrong.

There is a reason they don't teach these basic life skills in school. Harder to control/enslave people who understand how the system works.

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Public schools were pretty much originally designed to turn out worker drones for the corporations and consumers for the merchants.
It's only gotten worse in recent times where schools were more about teaching kids to think in the approved manner.

I own 3- 1050's and a couple 550's. Rule in our house is simple, if you can pay cash for it then you can have it. No fine print or excuses required.

Should we hate on car dealerships and mortgage companies as well?

DeathBeforeDismount said:

When the majority of the population is financially illiterate, it shows your statement to be wrong.

There is a reason they don't teach these basic life skills in school. Harder to control/enslave people who understand how the system works.

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That’s where parenting comes into play.

If you rely on the state to raise your kids you’re a failure as a parent and if you don’t understand the financing terms associated with a purchase you don’t sign. Simple as that. Save up and pay cash, buy something else that meets your needs (not wants) that you can afford or find another lender offering more straightforward terms that are easily understood. That about sums up the basics.

No JD in finance or background in contract law necessary.

Predatory lending is bullshit. Being foolish/irresponsible is not an excuse to default on your debts. A man pays what he owes, learns from his mistakes and makes it a point not to repeat them. Caveat emptor.

If you have an issue with the lending industry, it should be with fractional reserve banking. Ever wonder how banks could possibly turn a profit issuing 30 year mortgages at 3% with 2% inflation? It’s because they lend out the same dollar nine times. Their rate of return is more like 27% than 3%. And loans at that rate are secured. In other words, if you default on that mortgage the bank forecloses on the house, sells it off, takes their cut plus fees and if there’s anything left over you get the difference.

Look at Amex. Even at an average interest rate of 20.53% the company would be losing almost $20b a year if it weren’t for merchant fees. That’s with about $9b in interest income.

Not just Dillon. Cordova is all over the retail gun industry…

Surprised anyone is surprised.

vinniedelpino said:

That’s where parenting comes into play.

If you rely on the state to raise your kids you’re a failure as a parent and if you don’t understand the financing terms associated with a purchase you don’t sign. Simple as that. Save up and pay cash, buy something else that meets your needs (not wants) that you can afford or find another lender offering more straightforward terms that are easily understood. That about sums up the basics.

No JD in finance or background in contract law necessary.

Predatory lending is bullshit. Being foolish/irresponsible is not an excuse to default on your debts. A man pays what he owes, learns from his mistakes and makes it a point not to repeat them. Caveat emptor.

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This just shows the fundamental lack of understanding of the issue and poor critical thinking.

Parents who NEVER were taught financial responsibility and literacy are supposed to magically instill this wisdom into their offspring? Its like people bitching about welfare recipients when that's is all they know. When you are 3-4-5-6 generations into it, who is teaching who? Its an endless cycle that will not be broken by doing the same fucking dumb shit we have been doing for 100 years.

The entire system is designed to enslave you. Everything is in legalize and requires an experienced attorney to distill everything down to facts. Even if you understand the verbiage, you do not understand how contract law, the state and federal CFR's interact or if anything they claim is legally binding. Laws are purposely obscure and confusing, so they can be applied against you no matter how hard you try to stay on the right side of the law.

It is in society best interest for its populace to be educated and understand these things. It makes a stronger, wealthier and safer society.

But the Politicians and Corporations and the ultra rich who use everyone like disposable cum rags for their own benefit, Privatizing the Gains and Socializing the losses at the expense of the average American, don't want to allow this. They fight it, The same way Slave owners would kill their Slaves if they learned to read. Educatios and Knowledge is freedom and we can't let the peasants think they actually know how to live their lives better than the masters.

The posts in this thread prove most don't even know whats going on, much less have viable solutions. There needs to be an IQ test to vote.

Oh, heck. This was years, ago.

Wow, you guys were just spammed and didn't even catch it.

Shame on your asses.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

This just shows the fundamental lack of understanding of the issue and poor critical thinking.

Parents who NEVER were taught financial responsibility and literacy are supposed to magically instill this wisdom into their offspring? Its like people bitching about welfare recipients when that's is all they know. When you are 3-4-5-6 generations into it, who is teaching who? Its an endless cycle that will not be broken by doing the same fucking dumb shit we have been doing for 100 years.

The entire system is designed to enslave you. Everything is in legalize and requires an experienced attorney to distill everything down to facts. Even if you understand the verbiage, you do not understand how contract law, the state and federal CFR's interact or if anything they claim is legally binding. Laws are purposely obscure and confusing, so they can be applied against you no matter how hard you try to stay on the right side of the law.

It is in society best interest for its populace to be educated and understand these things. It makes a stronger, wealthier and safer society.

But the Politicians and Corporations and the ultra rich who use everyone like disposable cum rags for their own benefit, Privatizing the Gains and Socializing the losses at the expense of the average American, don't want to allow this. They fight it, The same way Slave owners would kill their Slaves if they learned to read. Educatios and Knowledge is freedom and we can't let the peasants think they actually know how to live their lives better than the masters.

The posts in this thread prove most don't even know whats going on, much less have viable solutions. There needs to be an IQ test to vote.

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I get your sentiment, but the simple solution to the problem is not to agree to things you don’t understand. It’s that simple. It’s common sense.

While I’m no expert, I feel I’m more financially savvy than the average Joe. Nevertheless, Ive made a conscious choice not to leverage debt in pursuit of financial gain. I’m risk averse like that and the peace of mind that goes along with owning what I have more than makes up for any foregone income. To each his own. There are many different paths to financial success.

This is not as complicated as you’re making it out to be. If you don’t like or understand the terms, don’t borrow. Drive a 1997 Corolla for $5k. Rent until you scrape together $40k for a mobile home and upgrade when you have the means to do so. Don’t buy that sweet AI/TT or Ford Raptor until you can actually afford it.

The road to financial success may be difficult, but it’s certainly doesn’t have to be complicated. Don’t sign anything you don’t understand, work hard and spend less than you produce. I’m not sure how else to say it. Anyone that follows those three rules is set.

vinniedelpino said:

I get your sentiment, but the simple solution to the problem is not to agree to things you don’t understand. It’s that simple. It’s common sense.

While I’m no expert, I feel I’m more financially savvy than the average Joe. Nevertheless, Ive made a conscious choice not to leverage debt in pursuit of financial gain. I’m risk averse like that and the peace of mind that goes along with owning what I have more than makes up for any foregone income. To each his own. There are many different paths to financial success.

This is not as complicated as you’re making it out to be. If you don’t like or understand the terms, don’t borrow. Drive a 1997 Corolla for $5k. Rent until you scrape together $40k for a mobile home and upgrade when you have the means to do so. Don’t buy that sweet AI/TT or Ford Raptor until you can actually afford it.

The road to financial success may be difficult, but it’s certainly doesn’t have to be complicated. Don’t sign anything you don’t understand, work hard and spend less than you produce. I’m not sure how else to say it. Anyone that follows those three rules is set.

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Easy to say when modern life is predicated on agreeing to things you don't understand.

Ever look at an EULA or any agreement to play a game, use a computer, sign up for email, use a system or even the Law, which is assumed you fully understand since ignorance of the law is not a defense.

These things are designed for deception. The solution is to make things easier to understand and transparent, so people can make informed decisions.