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OCW test results

drtony

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Minuteman
Apr 16, 2019
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this. Shot an OCW test yesterday for my GAP crusader in 6.5CM. The results are pictured and I am not sure how to read it to see where the nodes are at.

IMG_7328.jpeg


6.5 Creedmoor
N555
140 Berger Elite Hunter
CCI Large Rifle

Minimum Charge: 40.1 gr
Maximum: 43.4 gr

Sighter #1: 37.3 gr
Sighter #2: 38.1 gr
Sighter #3: 38.9 gr

4 ROUNDS FOR EACH LOAD

Load #1: 40.1 gr
Load #2: 40.4 gr
Load #3: 40.8 gr
Load #4: 41.2 gr
Load #5: 41.6 gr
Load #6: 42.0 gr
Load #7: 42.4 gr
Load #8: 42.8 gr
Load #9: 43.4 gr
Load #10: 43.8 gr (No pressure signs)

Not sure if I pulled the left shot on #3 (that was either the first or second shot). Also, the top shot on #6-- I felt like it wasn't a perfect shot, but I was surprised it was that far off as well. The only other known "bad shot" is labeled-- shot target 8 with second shot from load 9.
 

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Do you have Ballistic-X? I find its “Adjust to Zero” feature to be the easiest way to interpret an OCW test. Take the ATZ readings, put them in a spreadsheet, elevation vs charge weight and windage vs charge weight, and look for flat spots in both trends that correspond to the same weight range.
 
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I’d say .4 gr between groups makes the result hard to read. For me to really validate an OCW I like to see the bullet moving between the groups. I can usually see a pattern of horizontal spread/vertical spread and the group coming back together in between. There’s some of that in yours but it’s less definitive. That makes sense bc a larger spread is going to make the result less refined. I’d be doing 5x 41.8- 42- 42.2. If all of those have similar POA go with 42.
 
When doing an OCW test I like to look for the adjacent groups being in approximately the same location. I'm having trouble picking that out from your testing.
Were you able to leave the rifle in it's rests in between groups?
Did you shoot one group at a time or do some "round robin" thing?
 
I’d say .4 gr between groups makes the result hard to read. For me to really validate an OCW I like to see the bullet moving between the groups. I can usually see a pattern of horizontal spread/vertical spread and the group coming back together in between. There’s some of that in yours but it’s less definitive. That makes sense bc a larger spread is going to make the result less refined. I’d be doing 5x 41.8- 42- 42.2. If all of those have similar POA go with 42.
Agree.

For the case capacity of a 6.5CR, I'd be going in increments of .2 to .3 grains, which I feel would produce better resolution.
 
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When doing an OCW test I like to look for the adjacent groups being in approximately the same location. I'm having trouble picking that out from your testing.
Were you able to leave the rifle in it's rests in between groups?
Did you shoot one group at a time or do some "round robin" thing?
The last sentence is a very important part of the test and most ppl ignore it. Shooting round robin eliminates false results when the shooter is comfortable on some groups and not the others. RR doesn’t take the shooter out of the equation but it helps prevent false positive/negative results. If the shooter isn’t on point for a group or two it’s more likely that it will just garble the result vs making you think a certain charge is really good or really bad.
 
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I shot round robin with 90-120 seconds between each shot.

Used Ballistic X to get the center

Ballistic-X-Export-2022-10-11 14:46:58.808131.jpg
 
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. . . in addition, if one lets their barrel get too hot, it can ruin the test and make it impossible to read properly, especially for the thinner barrels. So, gotta keep barrel heat under control, letting it cool down some, like between groups.
 
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. . . in addition, if one lets their barrel get too hot, it can ruin the test and make it impossible to read properly, especially for the thinner barrels. So, gotta keep barrel heat under control, letting it cool down some, like between groups.
It did not feel hot when i checked between rounds. I would have waited longer if I had fliers
 
I would probably do a .2 increment test, or a seating depth test, on something in the 6/7/8 42.0/42.4/42.8 range since they all seem to be the closest in relative impact position to me
 
I shot round robin with 90-120 seconds between each shot.

Used Ballistic X to get the center

View attachment 7974520
Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the size of all the groups (except for #3, where that could be something involving shooting mechanics) coming out of a Crusader. Maybe that's just me. I would have expected somewhat smaller groups all the way around. Makes me wonder if there's something going on with your reloading process???

Since an OCW test like this is only a start, where you need to verify some of the data, I'd take a closer look at loads from 40.6 to 41.0 in .02 gr increments.

I'll be doing something similar after my OCW I did this last weekend.
6.5 RPC OCW - 2022-10-8.jpg


Addendum: just to clarify what I did here . . . my barrel was thoroughly cleaned before this session and so I fired 2 fouler shots, which you see left of the green dot. Then I proceeded to shoot 3 shot groups. I typically load up 5 rounds for each powder load for my OCWs as I did here too. And because I wasn't sure it was me causing the shots for 58.0 and 57.4 to go low and right, I went back and shot one more at each of the first three (this is why I like to load up more than 3 for each charge to be able to follow up on shooter error). The 4th shot pretty much confirmed my suspicion. Now I just need to do some confirmation and try and see where the node begins and ends to see just what i want to use. I fired the left over rounds over my MagnetoSpeed to get more data on velocity and compare it to what I've already recorded in the past.
 
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Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the size of all the groups (except for #3, where that could be something involving shooting mechanics) coming out of a Crusader. Maybe that's just me. I would have expected somewhat smaller groups all the way around. Makes me wonder if there's something going on with your reloading process???

Since an OCW test like this is only a start, where you need to verify some of the data, I'd take a closer look at loads from 40.6 to 41.0 in .02 gr increments.

I'll be doing something similar after my OCW I did this last weekend.
View attachment 7974540
This is a good illustration of my earlier post. You’re running 57 gr and using .3gr increments. The OP was at 42gr with .4gr. That is likely a factor but the spreads look a bit shooter induced to me. When I see double grouping and a couple of random flyers I think shooter. But there’s no way to tell for sure. When doing an OCW, unless you can 100% call your shots, it’s a good idea to not put a lot of stock in flyers. If you see a pattern by omitting the flyers, go with it and shoot a smaller window in smaller increments.
 
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I’m not sure about your experience level, but shooting groups small enough for load development is a learned skill that takes time. I’d be looking for a load that nets a velocity between 2700 and 2800 and seat 10 thou off or mag length to start with. The ocw test is about group location not size.

ETA.. One thing that really helped me shoot better was learning that tensing muscles will cause issues related to impact location. Your shooting grip needs to be firm with rearward pressure (imagine shaking hands), your shoulders and neck need to be relaxed, and you need to pull the trigger straight back. A lot go really good shooters like floating their thumb when shooting. I like positive engagement on the stock a repeatable spot.

As I mentioned above, find a reasonable velocity, load a bunch and shoot them... there is no short cut when learning to shoot (I still have plenty to learn myself).
 
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I am new to reloading and prior to the last few months I only shot a few rounds a year to "brush up" before hunting season.

So, I know I am not the best shot, but I am eager to learn and practice. Were I a great shot, these groups would be tighter. But I have to start somewhere or I never will get better. I did the test to try and find a load so I can load up 100 rounds and shoot those over the next 4-6 weeks.

The only range near me is a 200 yard range, but I have a friend that is a farmer. He told me I can shoot in one of his fields whenever I want as long as there are no crops in it. That field goes to 880 yards. He just harvested all the crops Sunday.

So, my goal is to get a load so I can start practicing at 100 yard increments out to 880 yards
 
I’m not sure about your experience level, but shooting groups small enough for load development is a learned skill that takes time. I’d be looking for a load that nets a velocity between 2700 and 2800 and seat 10 thou off or mag length to start with. The ocw test is about group location not size.
I did the test to find a stable node (I thought it was loads 7 and 8) because there was not much shift in location. I was going to play with seating depth to try and bring the groups together once I found the stable powder charge
 
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OCW ladder test with only 4 shots is the most stupid you can do. if you want to see it, you need at least 10 shots per group. and in longer ranges.

so just pick a load and close the group with seating depth and stop doing nonsence OCW tests.
 
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I’m not sure about your experience level, but shooting groups small enough for load development is a learned skill that takes time. I’d be looking for a load that nets a velocity between 2700 and 2800 and seat 10 thou off or mag length to start with. The ocw test is about group location not size.
Good point about location. But, for my OCW's I look for both size and group location, location being just a little more important.

Often, when I have shot two of my three shots that I do for OCW's, if those two shots are far apart, I don't even bother with the 3rd since it won't improve the size of the group. And the 2 shots does still give me a location reference.

And you're right, that if one can not shoot small groups, for whatever reason, be it shooting skill or issues with loading consistency or something to do with the rifle itself or front and rear rest issues, it's difficult to see and read what an OCW test can show.
 
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Good point about location. But, for my OCW's I look for both size and group location, location being just a little more important.

Often, when I have shot two of my three shots that I do for OCW's, if those two shots are far apart, I don't even bother with the 3rd since it won't improve the size of the group. And the 2 shots does still give me a location reference.

And you're right, that if one can not shoot small groups, for whatever reason, be it shooting skill or issues with loading consistency or something to do with the rifle itself, it's difficult to see and read what an OCW test can show.
That is a good point about 2 shots being far apart

I care most about finding a stable load so I can practice.
 
OCW ladder test with only 4 shots is the most stupid you can do. if you want to see it, you need at least 10 shots per group. and in longer ranges.

so just pick a load and close the group with seating depth and stop doing nonsence OCW tests.
I find that 3 shots for my initial OCW ladder has worked pretty well for me. It's certainly not the final tell all test, but it gets me looking in the right area to do a little more testing either to verify what I'm seeing or not.
 
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TLDR: - When the variability of your group pattern is much larger than the change in point of impact of the group per step, you have some fundamental problems to solve before you will make progress with load tuning.

My opinion is that a GAP Crusader should do much better so some fundamentals are in order before you attempt more load development.
There are some talking points we can make that are just food for thought.
There are risks in likelihood and consequence for each one.

The Arrow... (which includes the bow...)
You named a well known manufacturer who we will give the benefit of the doubt for the time being, although if the barrel is aftermarket we will circle back to that theory.
Let us assume the gun/barrel/chamber are assembled correctly and not the cause for the moment.
That still leaves us with anything we did to it, i.e., scopes, mods, loose fasteners, muzzle devices, etc., so give the whole works a thorough examination and then scope the bore.

If this type of debugging isn't something you are versed in, it usually isn't too far to find some help.

Aside from this hardware debugging discussion, has this gun ever shot tight with anything else? If the answer is yes, we are not wasting time debugging but if the answer is no, then the list of risks goes up. Let us park the risk of the barrel for a moment.

Is this rig new?
Was there age or lots of cycles on the firing pin?
Was the barrel mounting system changed or the action/bolt blue printed?
(I have to ask because I am not aware of this being offered in 6.5 CM, but you will tell us if otherwise.)

Sometimes a barrel hates a bullet (or a powder with that bullet) and the best it will do is mediocre. We are discussing a rig that is north of $5k, so we will assume the goal is 3 shots <0.5 MOA and generally well inside 1 MOA for slow fire strings, unless you modified the barrel design or it wasn't executed well. If that barrel was from GA Precision, you should seek their advice and get a baseline of the ammo they recommend. Their guarantee is based on match ammo, not hunting ammo. So we will want to find out what they recommend.

When something is this far out of whack, there is value in trying anything else at hand to see what this rig can do. As a beginner or beginning reloader, testing against some factory match ammo baseline is a tool you can use to debug a bad day.

The more similar this factory baseline ammo is to what you will be loading the better. For example, if your particular hunting bullet comes in factory ammo from a reputable source, give that a try. This will give you a reference baseline goal as a beginning reloader.

If that hunting bullet factory ammo still looks bad, then try to use exactly what the gun maker uses when they test if possible.

What did they use when they came up with the GAP Crusader in 6.5 CM? I am retired now so I don't keep up, but the Crusader used to be offered in 308 WIN and came with a < 3/8 MOA precision guarantee. (If the 6.5 CM barrel is aftermarket and unproven, we may have to question any assumptions we made earlier.)

The value of the testing with factory ammo to get a baseline, is it cuts the troubleshooting list in half. We would know that the gun is good and the shooter is good, but the hand loading needs work. If that hunting factory ammo didn't do as well as the GAP recommended match ammo, then the challenge will be down a different path, but at least you will know you are not chasing down that path for nothing.

The Indian....
The next big possibilities are "The Indian" steering the gun.
Only you know if your skills and background are at the point of shooting well enough to make that many shots without throwing a single one.

All of us will have a bad day now and then, but that discussion comes after many years of knowing the difference between a bad day and what we can normally do.

What is your normal capability with a known similar weight gun and caliber?
What is your normal capability with any other target rifle?
Have you ever been able to shoot 20 to 50 shots into < 1/2 MOA with any other combination?

To end this wall of text on a more upbeat note, don't sweat it if you are still learning the ropes of shooting or load development. You spent good money on a well regarded rig and as long as the barrel wasn't a lemon, you will get there. YMMV
 
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TLDR: - When the variability of your group pattern is much larger than the change in point of impact of the group per step, you have some fundamental problems to solve before you will make progress with load tuning.

My opinion is that a GAP Crusader should do much better so some fundamentals are in order before you attempt more load development.
There are some talking points we can make that are just food for thought.
There are risks in likelihood and consequence for each one.

The Arrow... (which includes the bow...)
You named a well known manufacturer who we will give the benefit of the doubt for the time being, although if the barrel is aftermarket we will circle back to that theory.
Let us assume the gun/barrel/chamber are assembled correctly and not the cause for the moment.
That still leaves us with anything we did to it, i.e., scopes, mods, loose fasteners, muzzle devices, etc., so give the whole works a thorough examination and then scope the bore.

If this type of debugging isn't something you are versed in, it usually isn't too far to find some help.

Aside from this hardware debugging discussion, has this gun ever shot tight with anything else? If the answer is yes, we are not wasting time debugging but if the answer is no, then the list of risks goes up. Let us park the risk of the barrel for a moment.

Is this rig new?
Was there age or lots of cycles on the firing pin?
Was the barrel mounting system changed or the action/bolt blue printed?
(I have to ask because I am not aware of this being offered in 6.5 CM, but you will tell us if otherwise.)

Sometimes a barrel hates a bullet (or a powder with that bullet) and the best it will do is mediocre. We are discussing a rig that is north of $5k, so we will assume the goal is 3 shots <0.5 MOA and generally well inside 1 MOA for slow fire strings, unless you modified the barrel design or it wasn't executed well. If that barrel was from GA Precision, you should seek their advice and get a baseline of the ammo they recommend. Their guarantee is based on match ammo, not hunting ammo. So we will want to find out what they recommend.

When something is this far out of whack, there is value in trying anything else at hand to see what this rig can do. As a beginner or beginning reloader, testing against some factory match ammo baseline is a tool you can use to debug a bad day.

The more similar this factory baseline ammo is to what you will be loading the better. For example, if your particular hunting bullet comes in factory ammo from a reputable source, give that a try. This will give you a reference baseline goal as a beginning reloader.

If that hunting bullet factory ammo still looks bad, then try to use exactly what the gun maker uses when they test if possible.

What did they use when they came up with the GAP Crusader in 6.5 CM? I am retired now so I don't keep up, but the Crusader used to be offered in 308 WIN and came with a < 3/8 MOA precision guarantee. (If the 6.5 CM barrel is aftermarket and unproven, we may have to question any assumptions we made earlier.)

The value of the testing with factory ammo to get a baseline, is it cuts the troubleshooting list in half. We would know that the gun is good and the shooter is good, but the hand loading needs work. If that hunting factory ammo didn't do as well as the GAP recommended match ammo, then the challenge will be down a different path, but at least you will know you are not chasing down that path for nothing.

The Indian....
The next big possibilities are "The Indian" steering the gun.
Only you know if your skills and background are at the point of shooting well enough to make that many shots without throwing a single one.

All of us will have a bad day now and then, but that discussion comes after many years of knowing the difference between a bad day and what we can normally do.

What is your normal capability with a known similar weight gun and caliber?
What is your normal capability with any other target rifle?
Have you ever been able to shoot 20 to 50 shots into < 1/2 MOA with any other combination?

To end this wall of text on a more upbeat note, don't sweat it if you are still learning the ropes of shooting or load development. You spent good money on a well regarded rig and as long as the barrel wasn't a lemon, you will get there. YMMV
Thank you for a well thought out response. I can say with 100% certainty it is the Indian.

The rifle was purchased by me --used- from a reputable member on this forum. He had it rebarreled by GAP and this barrel had 30 rounds or so down the tube. The previous owner used his load for the old barrel on the new barrel and it was a jagged hole. He shot this rifle (with the old barrel) in competition.
 
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I'd take a close look at group 6 and see if you can get this group to work out as practice ammo. shoot it at 100 and 300 and if it continues to group see if its good enough for 600 then it will be probably 800 too. From here you can lock down your rifle/shooting system and revisit load dev and refine the load as appropriate.
 
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Thank you for a well thought out response. I can say with 100% certainty it is the Indian.

The rifle was purchased by me --used- from a reputable member on this forum. He had it rebarreled by GAP and this barrel had 30 rounds or so down the tube. The previous owner used his load for the old barrel on the new barrel and it was a jagged hole. He shot this rifle (with the old barrel) in competition.
Sounds like you've got a really good rifle there. To help your results for testing, I've found a couple of things that really helped me when shooting targets for precision:

Optics. I found that high magnification along with thin reticle made a bid difference. You know the old saying, you can hit what you can't see and "aim small, miss small". ;) Make sure the parallax is set properly.

Trigger. Having a lite trigger pull. From what you've said, I think the rig you have probably already has that.

Front and rear bags. It's important to keep you rifle stable, level and able to return to the same firing position after recoil.

When I got these things taken care of, working on the nut behind the stock is my biggest task. Though I have my parallax set, I maker sure my sight picture is consistent. I barely touch my recoil pad with my shoulder and barely touch my cheek riser . . . all in order for as much consistency with how my holding the gun influences the shots. Then, when I've established my point of aim, with a light trigger I carefully and slowing pull straight back until I'm almost surprised when the round is fired. Essentially, this is what works for me and something I developed trying different things out. What works for you to be consistent, may be somewhat different.

. . . but I hope this give you some ideas.
 
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As others have said, the charge range intervals are too broad. Go to .2gr per group and shoot it round Robin and just do it again. The whole idea of this is to identify a range of powder charge that produces the same Point of Impact. Then you can tighten ghe group with seating depth. If done correctly you will absolutely be able to see it and you won't need help doing it. I like to take 3 shots first, then start my time and make sure I'm 5 min or 7min or whatever between groups to make sure my barrel is the same general temp when shooting each one, but you have to get the barrel warm first to do this and it work, which is why I shoot 3 or 5 shots first, then wait my 7 min, then start the test, and do 7 min in between each group from there on out.

You really need to stabilize the rifle and make sure you are pulling the trigger with your finger on the pad of your finger, while having your finger at 90 degrees. I've found that just focusing on doing that each time shows up on target when shooting groups.

If you do it again with .2 gr intervals and get repeatable and correct trigger press, you will see the poi move to the same area in at least 3 groups. The middle charge of those will be where you want to be.
 
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Sounds like you've got a really good rifle there. To help your results for testing, I've found a couple of things that really helped me when shooting targets for precision:

Optics. I found that high magnification along with thin reticle made a bid difference. You know the old saying, you can hit what you can't see and "aim small, miss small". ;) Make sure the parallax is set properly.

Trigger. Having a lite trigger pull. From what you've said, I think the rig you have probably already has that.

Front and rear bags. It's important to keep you rifle stable, level and able to return to the same firing position after recoil.

When I got these things taken care of, working on the nut behind the stock is my biggest task. Though I have my parallax set, I maker sure my sight picture is consistent. I barely touch my recoil pad with my shoulder and barely touch my cheek riser . . . all in order for as much consistency with how my holding the gun influences the shots. Then, when I've established my point of aim, with a light trigger I carefully and slowing pull straight back until I'm almost surprised when the round is fired. Essentially, this is what works for me and something I developed trying different things out. What works for you to be consistent, may be somewhat different.

. . . but I hope this give you some ideas.
What you’re describing is free recoil shooting; trying not to touch the rifle so as not to influence it. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that if that’s what you like to do. It can be a good way to see how well a rifle will shoot. But that’s about the only thing it’s good for. You’re not going to control recoil, spot your shots, shoot from different positions, or become a better shooter doing it like this. The reason you started to shoot better by barely touching the rifle and letting the trigger surprise you is bc you were doing something to take the rifle off target, a flinch/anticipation/poor set up/etc…

Don’t take this as a shot at you. Tons of ppl shoot bench rest and can outshoot me all day if we’re sitting at a bench. But if we leave the rests behind and go in the field I’ll probably outshoot them. It’s just a matter of what you find to be fun/enjoyable/useful. A lot of ppl on here want to learn how to manage recoil/spot hits and misses/ shoot from any position etc…. Two of the most important components of doing that are connecting the rifle to your body and a deliberate trigger pull. I pull the rifle into my shoulder hard and when I pull the trigger I do it very intentionally. The keys are to have your body positioned so a straight pull into your shoulder leaves you on target, and to 100% isolate your trigger finger from your body and have zero anticipation or reaction to the trigger pull.
 
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this. Shot an OCW test yesterday for my GAP crusader in 6.5CM. The results are pictured and I am not sure how to read it to see where the nodes are at.

View attachment 7974409

6.5 Creedmoor
N555
140 Berger Elite Hunter
CCI Large Rifle

Minimum Charge: 40.1 gr
Maximum: 43.4 gr

Sighter #1: 37.3 gr
Sighter #2: 38.1 gr
Sighter #3: 38.9 gr

4 ROUNDS FOR EACH LOAD

Load #1: 40.1 gr
Load #2: 40.4 gr
Load #3: 40.8 gr
Load #4: 41.2 gr
Load #5: 41.6 gr
Load #6: 42.0 gr
Load #7: 42.4 gr
Load #8: 42.8 gr
Load #9: 43.4 gr
Load #10: 43.8 gr (No pressure signs)

Not sure if I pulled the left shot on #3 (that was either the first or second shot). Also, the top shot on #6-- I felt like it wasn't a perfect shot, but I was surprised it was that far off as well. The only other known "bad shot" is labeled-- shot target 8 with second shot from load 9.
You have nodes at 3 and 6 which are 3% apart perfectly like they should be. Take load 6 and shoot a seating depth test .005, .010, .015, and .020 off. 3 shots each round robin. After that shoot 41.8, 42.0, and 42.2 and see which one shoots best. It would be best to shoot those three at distance if possible.
 
You have nodes at 3 and 6 which are 3% apart perfectly like they should be. Take load 6 and shoot a seating depth test .005, .010, .015, and .020 off. 3 shots each round robin. After that shoot 41.8, 42.0, and 42.2 and see which one shoots best. It would be best to shoot those three at distance if possible.
This. I thought I was the only one who used the scatter node and 3% spread to confirm….
 
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What you’re describing is free recoil shooting; trying not to touch the rifle so as not to influence it. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that if that’s what you like to do. It can be a good way to see how well a rifle will shoot. But that’s about the only thing it’s good for. You’re not going to control recoil, spot your shots, shoot from different positions, or become a better shooter doing it like this. The reason you started to shoot better by barely touching the rifle and letting the trigger surprise you is bc you were doing something to take the rifle off target, a flinch/anticipation/poor set up/etc…

Don’t take this as a shot at you. Tons of ppl shoot bench rest and can outshoot me all day if we’re sitting at a bench. But if we leave the rests behind and go in the field I’ll probably outshoot them. It’s just a matter of what you find to be fun/enjoyable/useful. A lot of ppl on here want to learn how to manage recoil/spot hits and misses/ shoot from any position etc…. Two of the most important components of doing that are connecting the rifle to your body and a deliberate trigger pull. I pull the rifle into my shoulder hard and when I pull the trigger I do it very intentionally. The keys are to have your body positioned so a straight pull into your shoulder leaves you on target, and to 100% isolate your trigger finger from your body and have zero anticipation or reaction to the trigger pull.
Yes, I do understand all that. And I wouldn't describe it a "free recoil" as I am touching the rifle at 3 points, just not touching much. Whether it's free recoil or the way I describe, the point is this is what I do for load development to get as consistent results as possible. It's definably not a technique I was use, recommend or practice for things like hunting or PRS shooting.
 
Thank you for a well thought out response. I can say with 100% certainty it is the Indian.

The rifle was purchased by me --used- from a reputable member on this forum. He had it rebarreled by GAP and this barrel had 30 rounds or so down the tube. The previous owner used his load for the old barrel on the new barrel and it was a jagged hole. He shot this rifle (with the old barrel) in competition.
@drtony , if you have the recipe from your seller stick to it for now. Get that load shooting tight, and then work on load development.

If you can, ask him if it shoots any factory test ammo tight. Get some of that while you are on the learning curve and baseline yourself and learn to clone that as a starting goal.

Sounds like your gun will be fine, but give The Indian a chance to grow the skills to drive it and learn to load for it, then branch out into load development.

Now I will stick my neck out and attract some flak. I don't care cause my skin is thick, I am retired, and have nothing left to prove to the juniors...

Go grab a high class smallbore target rifle of your favorite style, and learn to shoot first.

There will be many posts with a different opinion about how they learned to fly high without any flying lessons and in some instances it is true. But not all pilots are natural test pilots.

There are many prodigies with all sort of topics, math, music, flying, driving, art, etc.. and some folks are natural shots. On the other hand, the statistics are not in your favor, so learning to be methodical won't hurt you but it can take time. My opinion is you need this time and a little live coaching will make it go faster.

Your pocketbook will thank you for the shorter path to success. YMMV.

Have fun and good luck. Looking forward to your range report.
 
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Yes, I do understand all that. And I wouldn't describe it a "free recoil" as I am touching the rifle at 3 points, just not touching much. Whether it's free recoil or the way I describe, the point is this is what I do for load development to get as consistent results as possible. It's definably not a technique I was use, recommend or practice for things like hunting or PRS shooting.
Free recoil doesn’t mean not touching the rifle. It just means you’re trying to influence the rifle as little as possible; your aim is derived from what the rifle is sitting on rather than from you. Lots of guys free recoil in PRS. That’s why smaller, faster bullets get more and more popular. When you’re shooting free recoil in competition your rifle better not have much recoil or you’re going to have a huge problem seeing impacts/misses. What they’re doing is a little different than sitting at a bench and free recoiling but the concept is the same; set the rifle on target and don’t disturb it when you pull the trigger.

In that sense I guess me saying you can’t become a better shooter using free recoil is not entirely accurate bc those guys hit lots of targets. But I was speaking to fundamentals based on recoil management. IMO recoil management is the ultimate test for fundamentals. You can shoot good groups with bad fundamentals but you’ll never control real recoil without good fundamentals.
 
I've used the OCW method for at least 10 years and found it to be a good, consistent method for developing a load.

Unfortunately, the OCW method does have a couple of fallacies. First and foremost to be a good test it needs to be shot round robin and that
requires the shooter to be consistent in his setup for each shot. This can often be a problem. The other stems from our desire for small groups and to be drawn to a single small group. Looking at the target I think I see a rifle that is not going to be picky about the load. It's not uncommon for an OCW derived load to shoot much more accurate then the actual load does during the test..

If I were to work from this test I would work with charge 7 +/-0.2 grains. Groups 6,7, and 8 form a very good group with a very similar POI.

As for charge increment, for 35 to 50 grain cartridges the usual increment is 0,3 grains. Normally its 3 shots per charge but shooting more doesn't usually hurt. It's usually said that three shots tests the load, 5 shots test the shooter.

Seem like @RegionRat and I think along the same Line. I use a simple good shooting 22LR when my skills get rusty. I also know some high power/Palma shooters who also use premium 22LR to practice with at 200 and 300yds. Why? Because it highlights any flaw you have in technique because the bullet is in the barrel for so long!
 
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I find that 3 shots for my initial OCW ladder has worked pretty well for me. It's certainly not the final tell all test, but it gets me looking in the right area to do a little more testing either to verify what I'm seeing or not.

those 3 shots for ladder are just flipping the coin.
if you choose a load that is not in your 'node', it will shoot just the same as your load in 'node'.
because those 3-shot ladders are pure bullshit.
 
What brass are you using?

I have a 308 Crusader, it shoots bugholes and I normally get sd's around 3.
 
those 3 shots for ladder are just flipping the coin.
if you choose a load that is not in your 'node', it will shoot just the same as your load in 'node'.
because those 3-shot ladders are pure bullshit.
Well then, my flipping of the coin has been working really well. 🥴

And will add. . .it doesn't work well if one isn't reloading with high level of precision and can't shoot pretty well too. o_O ;)
 
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those 3 shots for ladder are just flipping the coin.
if you choose a load that is not in your 'node', it will shoot just the same as your load in 'node'.
because those 3-shot ladders are pure bullshit.
You sound like a 10 shot over a unreliable chrony kind of fella.
 
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