Love my Surgeon actions... funny how ALL the loyalty to Defiance is crying 
- Thread starter clark33
- Start date
For the price of defiance action you can almost get a barreled action from Zermatt.
Why do you care who they sold to? You're not a customer.
Are you emotionally invested in the company?
Just picked up a Zermatt Origin for a close range, under 300 yards budget build and I'm pretty impressed w the Origin.
No it just adds fuel to the fire. It's not like it's some long time employee who bought the company and has blood sweat and tears. No emotional investment or pride in product.
I'm just spitting what's happening and what is most likely to happen. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last.
Again, why would you care?
You have no interest in the company, the products or the outcome.
Becuase I can? Same question back at you.
At the end of the day, being an informed consumer is a good thing. Regardless of whether you buy the product or not. I may not have any investment in women hygiene products because I don't use them, but I care... Why? Because they affect my family in my household...
As a shooting community, I think it's important to give pros and cons of every product out there, even if you decide to spend your money elsewhere. Being good stewards does not necessarily mean being a direct customer.
He was addressing a certain poster, and I dont think anybody would accuse @DeathBeforeDismount of good stewardship.
I don't think he is saying that Surgeon is bad, he even said that they were built so good that they could take prefits even before it was a thing.
The thing with Mike is that it doesn't really matter what action you use, he will rework it no matter what and it will shoot. The name on the side of the action doesn't matter if the barrel has the Tac Ops logo on it, the gun will shoot. It doesn't matter if it's a Remington or a Surgeon Mike is going to do some work to it.
I'm saying this as someone who has a Surgeon Tac Ops.
The only reason why I have a Surgeon and not a Rem 700 is because when I went to get my build started Remington had gone bankrupt and everyone had just sold out of all their Remingtons and I couldn't find anything. Like three months before I started my build Midway sold out of their 700 short actions for like $295 a piece and I couldn't find any sane prices for the full rifles. I got the Surgeon because Mike said he had a batch coming so why don't we just go ahead and place an order instead of waiting on randomly finding a cheap 700 for sale.
I take the comment about the barrels as a negative for the new owners and the owner doesn't get it
I wish I had bought a Rem 700 on here a while back. I remember someone selling a couple dozen for super cheap. I wanted a Rem 700 Tac Ops because I prefer BDL but Mike said he reserves those for LE customers since they're not easy to get anymore.
Since when did 700s not come with built in feed rails? So far as I know, Mike has never used factory BDL bottom metal... so what are you talking about?
Didn’t say he did. I just meant I wanted a BDL for my Tac ops rifle.
Mike is hanging on to his stock of 700’s for LE customers. They're only special in that they’re the ones he found acceptable.
The real question is, why not use some other custom action with feed lips? Surgeons used to have that, lone peak too. Mike is picky about actions, but he uses those two.
Shouldn't be that difficult to find a cheap rem 700 donor rifle cheap.
Are you staying on with the new company in transition and if so, for how long?
I don't care. Have you seen any soap box diatribes from me?
Sigh... the amount of conjecture here never ceases to amaze me. I will interject some facts for those with earnest interest, and simply ignore those whose only interests are to make continued personal character attacks and draw attention to themselves. We are also not going to engage those attempting to tell us how they think it's done, when frankly they have extremely limited knowledge of manufacturing, operations, costs, nor exactly how much "market share" Defiance actually has/had, basing their assumptions on a poling of a demographic that makes up for <1% of the market. And don't bother looking up the ATF numbers, as they will only tell you how many actions were produced under the "Defiance" label, not the huge amount of variants we produce for others.
While we had absolutely not intended nor wanted to adjust pricing, upon investigation and discovery of operations and financial solvability, it became NECESSARY and IMMEDIATE to do so... and by immediate, there was question of whether Defiance could even exist beyond the month had we not acted quickly. For the last two weeks, we have had to call long standing clients, and many we even consider very close friends, to break the unfortunate news. It gave none of our team pleasure in doing so, from the guys on the phone to the new Owner who had to make some extremely, extremely hard decisions with a company he had just acquired. At one point, a choice had to be made to try and do the right thing by many of our smaller dealers and individual customers, which meant honoring a price, a price that at which Defiance would actually LOSE MONEY in continuing to honor that commitment, and we will. Others, who did not have confirmed orders, meaning there was no deposit placed (mostly dealers), were told the price would need adjusted accordingly.
We will not go into the details of everything discovered leading up to recent events and changes, because frankly no one is entitled to that information outside of Defiance, and it's not open for discussion. We are doing our best to continue on despite, and going forward into 2023 we are going to put our nose to the grindstone to try and build Defiance back into a financially healthy company. We understand there are many people angry with the situation, us and the Owner included. But this is where we are at, and it regrettably had to happen to keep the doors open. You can choose to agree or disagree, but the fact is had it not happened, both customers and dealers would have still been upset when the doors closed and Defiance ceased to exist. We recognize there are numerous great options out there for actions, and we are friends with many of those competitors. For some of them, it will undoubtedly increase their business, but we have already begun to see an increase in productions with some changes in operations, and we look at this as an opportunity to do better going forward.
All that said, Happy New Year's guys. Enjoy your weekend.
While we had absolutely not intended nor wanted to adjust pricing, upon investigation and discovery of operations and financial solvability, it became NECESSARY and IMMEDIATE to do so... and by immediate, there was question of whether Defiance could even exist beyond the month had we not acted quickly. For the last two weeks, we have had to call long standing clients, and many we even consider very close friends, to break the unfortunate news. It gave none of our team pleasure in doing so, from the guys on the phone to the new Owner who had to make some extremely, extremely hard decisions with a company he had just acquired. At one point, a choice had to be made to try and do the right thing by many of our smaller dealers and individual customers, which meant honoring a price, a price that at which Defiance would actually LOSE MONEY in continuing to honor that commitment, and we will. Others, who did not have confirmed orders, meaning there was no deposit placed (mostly dealers), were told the price would need adjusted accordingly.
We will not go into the details of everything discovered leading up to recent events and changes, because frankly no one is entitled to that information outside of Defiance, and it's not open for discussion. We are doing our best to continue on despite, and going forward into 2023 we are going to put our nose to the grindstone to try and build Defiance back into a financially healthy company. We understand there are many people angry with the situation, us and the Owner included. But this is where we are at, and it regrettably had to happen to keep the doors open. You can choose to agree or disagree, but the fact is had it not happened, both customers and dealers would have still been upset when the doors closed and Defiance ceased to exist. We recognize there are numerous great options out there for actions, and we are friends with many of those competitors. For some of them, it will undoubtedly increase their business, but we have already begun to see an increase in productions with some changes in operations, and we look at this as an opportunity to do better going forward.
All that said, Happy New Year's guys. Enjoy your weekend.
I'm still here... although I'm sure the new Owner rethinks that decision everyday. Hell, Glenn rethought that decision every day as well too, lol.
It's still an option. We did eliminate some options for now, but once we've tackled some operations issues, they will return.
Wow! Just saw this, ironically on the day I just put together my new lightweight hunter based on an Anti action…. Waited almost exactly a year to get mine with a custom serial number, and happy to have it. I found the folks at @Defiance Machine to be very helpful and communicative through the entire process (this is my first custom bolt gun), and look forward to many years of shooting it before it becomes a family heirloom.
Quick pic on the bench, and yes, I still need a scope. Will get a glamor shot mañana if it’s not still raining…
Quick pic on the bench, and yes, I still need a scope. Will get a glamor shot mañana if it’s not still raining…
I’d rather have a person chamber my shit than a CNC machine. Because I like to support my gunsmith and have a good relationship with the person building my rifles. And lots of times I’m using custom reamers. A mass produced barrel just doesn’t toss my salad like it does for you.
Always glad to see the manufacturer respond to threads, even if it’s to something negative.
Disclaimer: not a fanboi, nor current customer. Though I’ve run your products and am a fan. Hope you guys pull through, business be business…
Also, when appropriate, I’d love to see the machinist Mondays thread revived. Thoroughly enjoyed that thread.
It seems strange that the Extreme Group, owned by Bob and Chris Beck, discovered this after they acquired Defiance.
-Stan
Was just about to say this. No way financial insolvency or any inkling of it just goes unnoticed with the sale of a company - at least without intentional coverup or extreme negligence.
“Whoopsie! Sorry the company you just bought for a couple mil is gonna have to close it’s doors next month unless you blanket hike prices ~30% immediately. Good luck!”
LOL
How does any of us know what anything behind the scene’s was done? I’m sure the media company who spent millions on a business venture who did their due diligence (let’s face it, they’re trying to make money) on a company with a solid business history/track record, orders on current products, projected earnings over X years based of forecast earnings, production capacity and costs, etc.. expected to earn a profit on their their investment. Defiance themselves suggests things on a production level are outside their control, but are trying to right the ship so to speak. Maybe things happened over a period of time to put them in this situation, we, the general public don’t know. Whatever happened/or series of events, is outside our knowledge.
Who do you think programs the CNC? Who runs the machines? Who does final QA/QC.
You do understand not all prefits are run as batches or mass produced? You can program a machine, put in a custom reamer and do all the same shit you can with manual, only more accurate faster and cheaper.
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If thats the case, they should be talking to their attorneys.
Sounds to me like defiance despite record sales and growth was running the business into the ground and the owners decided to punch out before the crash and burn. No wonder the owner is doing damage control on social media. Trying to save the ship from sinking.
I said they have 3 years before. Now I give it 1-2.
Good to hear. Happy New year and best of luck to you and your teams ...
Wow!
Kudos to Defiance for publicly admitting to running a business into the ground during a time consumer demand exceeds production capability.
Not many small businesses owners would have publicly owned up to that.
I sincerely hope EG can provide the business acumen required to right the ship.
Kudos to Defiance for publicly admitting to running a business into the ground during a time consumer demand exceeds production capability.
Not many small businesses owners would have publicly owned up to that.
I sincerely hope EG can provide the business acumen required to right the ship.
I have been involved in a situation like this. There could be several things going on. The old owner could have taken all the cash out of the company in the deal or the new owners didn't get enough cash from the bank to cash flow it properly, especially with the higher interest rates. There are so many possibilities out there, we don't know where the problem came from. I do agree that it seems strange to admit problems this close the the buyout.
I would be on the phone immediately with my attorneys and accountants if I had just bought a company and learned not a month after the fact that there would need to be an immediate 27% price increase to be profitable. That's huge and doesn’t just happen overnight.
Your actions were already higher priced than a lot of others that are built with the same materials, the same machines, and same basic overhead costs. Some of which are in states where it’s much more expensive to run a business than Montana. It doesn’t take Mark Cuban or Warren Buffet to see why that doesn't add up. So if this huge price increase to keep the doors open is that necessary one should really be looking why their operating costs are as high as they are.
At the end of the day it's the consumer that's buying your products whether they're direct from you or a vendor or from a builder that you OEM for. The same consumers that are going to evaluate their purchases based on the price increases are the same consumers who will evaluate their purchases based on whether the company will still be in business for product support in the future. You've given consumers very good reasons to look elsewhere for actions and here you are jumping on here calling people (some of who are your customers) out for personal attacks or not having knowledge of business and basically saying they don't matter anyway because this makes up less than 1% of your sales. That's a dangerous strategy considering that a lot of members on here and your very own customers are business owners, execs, high level management, etc and I would also bet that the long range shooting community makes up far more than 1% of your sales. This isn't a good look for the company.
I obviously don't know your company but I do have a background in manufacturing, procurement, and operating a business because it's my job so I do have an understanding of how this works. I just hope for the sake of the customers who stand to lose deposits and the new owners that stand to lose their investment that it's sorted out and a failing business wasn't dumped off while it still could be, like many are, because thats how this looks to me and obviously others as well.
This isn't meant to be a character attack on you or Defiance as a company, just my analysis based on what is known about what has happened and is happening, and what you have said in your own account. With that said, if I were the Becks the second thing I would do after calling the attorneys and accountants would be letting you go regardless of any agreement that may be in place because it doesn't seem that you're an asset to them at this point after selling a company that took a giant dump within the first month and are now online belittling your very own consumer base.
Defiance needs a public relations manager or team now, and a business strategy to be profitable without pricing themselves out of the market. My $.02.
One hell of a suspicious explanation isn't it. Perhaps they knew that Defiance was going to be insolvant soon and bought the company at a low cost knowing it would need to have structural changes to survive?
In any case it seems the Beck's are open to throwing Glenn under the bus to explain some recent changes...
Yeah. Due diligence? What's that?
Seems like some stones cast at Defiance former ownership. I just hope the internal culture doesn't change there, but it seems like it already is starting to shift.
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Good luck to Defiance and here's hoping for the best. At the end of the day, we should all hope for this and other U.S. companies to make it. Otherwise, it's gonna look like the shotgun market with more items coming out of Turkey.
....hmmm??
That’s just an assumption on your part and not exactly likely.
But, hey! Isn’t it fun piling on the dog pile when most here have absofuckinlutely no idea what they are talking about?
Both of them were just responding to @Defiance Machine 's offocial account response to this thread.
Instead of throwing shade at existing customers like me and potential customers it would have been better to explain more clearly the situation and choices that were made instead of being snide.
You replying HuRr DeRr YoU DoNt KnOw WHat iS GoInG oN, it's like no shit sherlock that's why we as customers are asking questions.
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Businesses running themselves into financial ruin and being bought up for cheap to stay open by someone with $$ (or good credit) is a very common story. If the business had been run better the buyout wouldn’t be necessary. The buyers see future profit from their investment, but risk is a thing. As a consumer, it’s not my monkey, nor my circus. I will buy something else equivalent that is available in a reasonable time. There is very little new under the Sun, especially at a certain price point. Hope springs eternal though, remember Theis?
Most rounded info I found while looking into this:
Hunting TV celebrity busted
It seems that Mr. Beck didn't think it was important to actually BUY the second tag. :rolleyes: You would think that the host of a television show would be smart enough to follow all of the rules. This isn't even a case of being held to a higher standard for television. This was obviously...
www.hunttalk.com 
I don't think I would have been quite that transparent, I would expect that explanation to scare customers away. Unfortunately if Defiance goes, there won't be anyone offering custom actions with 3 position safetys to us weirdos that like to be able to lock the bolt while hunting.
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That was excellent , thank you . Sadly , he will come back with something ignorant again, and again .
Last time we checked, personal attacks in the manner that have been made by one particular member here repeatedly are against the forum rules, and we've made no such personal attacks against anyone, period. We've belittled no one here. No one said anything about customers "not matter[ing]" anywhere or at any time, in fact we made statements to the contrary. We clearly stated above that the assumptions about the market share based upon a poling of what the PRS guys use is <1% of the actual market, and not a true indicator of the market for custom actions. The PRS/NRL is not the entirety of the "long range shooting community" by a long shot (pun intended). We respect that community, and we have gone far above and beyond to support that community for over a decade, something which I doubt few would disagree on; however, we do not base our business decisions off of soley that community because it is by far not the entire long range shooting community, and it is not our primary business despite the popular belief here that it is. A majority of the actions we produce are actually for hunting. We chose to respond in earnest to the few with an actual concerning interest in Defiance. Everything stated here was also stated to many of our customers, so attempting to circumvent those facts would serve no one's interest, as it would eventually arise anyways, and it would appear deceptive to hide the fact.
Lastly, since you did remark to me personally and my removal... I did not sell the company, so perhaps you're operating under a few false assumptions, and subsequently seeing what you want to see rather than reading them in the sincerity and with transparency that they are being given.
For those interested, Bob and Eric recently did a Podcast, where they go into a few of the details surrounding the transition...
You mean because you Scream for constant attention, must suck to live like that .
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