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Semi-Auto Rifle Grip Techniques

CR2 Dude

CR2 Dude

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I thought this was a really insightful video. I completely agree with Scott's assessment. I believe this wide acceptance of the thumb over grip is a symptom of a lack of fundamental discipline and/or as he describes early on; a poorly fitting rifle. Ergonomics matter and the grip is usually the first ergonomic interface that we interact with. It aids in the CONTROL of the rifle, which is what thumb over shooters intend to enhance, albeit counterintuitively. Coincidentally it is usually the first ergonomic interface that we're willing to disregard.

I also agree with the "thumb dance" explanation, but would like to take it a step further. The AR/ Carbine was intended to be a fighting rifle. A rifle that was meant to shoot move and communicate. The "thumb dance" not only adds time on the clock in a competition. It also inhibits the users ability to "Shoot, Move, And Communicate." The rifles originally intended purpose. By choosing a thumb over posture we are decreasing our ability to control the rifle while moving.

What do you think?
 
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I never switched to "precision grip" for mostly the same reasons. My semis have a grip for a reason so I use them, and they are generally more "top heavy" than my BA's which would lend to them rotating more when moving positions. I also have way to much time behind AR's between training and deployments to where it would take a long time for my muscle memory to not instinctively wrap my thumb around the grip, and the hours it would take to relearn that is better spent elsewhere.
 
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jb0311 said:
I never switched to "precision grip" for mostly the same reasons. My semis have a grip for a reason so I use them, and they are generally more "top heavy" than my BA's which would lend to them rotating more when moving positions. I also have way to much time behind AR's between training and deployments to where it would take a long time for my muscle memory to not instinctively wrap my thumb around the grip, and the hours it would take to relearn that is better spent elsewhere.
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Yeah exactly. That’s the part of grip we often overlook, we adjust cant with our grip too. AR are more too heavy absolutely
 
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If I am shooting groups I will often roll into the "precision grip" but other than that, I use the traditional. I shoot enough ARs outside of precision that my muscle memory is for the traditional grip.
 
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I’m on an airplane and can’t get the video to play but I’ll assume the precision grip is floating the thumb? Pulling with the fingertips? I generally only use this on bolt guns and with AR’s use the tradition full grip and wrap my thumb.
 
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I agree with everything Scott said. I usually wrap around however I tried the thumb over grip a few times this year at 2 day matches. My scores dropped drastically.

I noticed not properly following through with my trigger finger due to risk of doubling. I ended up feathering the trigger which resulted in dog shit trigger pulls.

I’ve gone back to wrap around and will stay that way.
 
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lennyo3034 said:
I agree with everything Scott said. I usually wrap around however I tried the thumb over grip a few times this year at 2 day matches. My scores dropped drastically.

I noticed not properly following through with my trigger finger due to risk of doubling. I ended up feathering the trigger which resulted in dog shit trigger pulls.

I’ve gone back to wrap around and will stay that way.
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That’s really interesting. I like it
 
I think he's spot on, and have argued this in the past.

I like my MPA chassis on my Competition bolt guns, and they are set up for the "precision" hand placement. It feels natural, allows for better cycling of the bolt, etc.

ARs have more stuff happening than a bolt gun, and needs more input from the user. A bolt gun does not have a half pound of reciprocating mass ka-chunking back and forth everytime the trigger is pulled. ARs do. Combine that with the safety on the left side, and forming a training/competition scar that may translate over to all of your ARs, and the "Precision thumb" method falls apart. I am, and will always be, a thumb wrapper on ARs of every flavor. If it affects your ability to put accurate rounds on target, you have a training and/or equipment set-up issue.
 
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Skg_Mre_Lght said:
I think he's spot on, and have argued this in the past.

I like my MPA chassis on my Competition bolt guns, and they are set up for the "precision" hand placement. It feels natural, allows for better cycling of the bolt, etc.

ARs have more stuff happening than a bolt gun, and needs more input from the user. A bolt gun does not have a half pound of reciprocating mass ka-chunking back and forth everytime the trigger is pulled. ARs do. Combine that with the safety on the left side, and forming a training/competition scar that may translate over to all of your ARs, and the "Precision thumb" method falls apart. I am, and will always be, a thumb wrapper on ARs of every flavor. If it affects your ability to put accurate rounds on target, you have a training and/or equipment set-up issue.
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I’ve seen that scar play out over and over again. Watch a gas gunner that shoots thumb over and who competes shoot a stage. It’s crazy the back and forth.

Not to mention the grab your rifle to move. Ok now let go to shoot. Ok now grab it to move. And so forth
 
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I wrap on AR's. I don't wrap on my bolt gun mainly because I have kind of large hands and mostly due to long fingers. Scott and I went through this in person and basically we decided that if I can wrap on my AR and do better with my bolt gun with my thumb on the inside, then roll with it. You really have to wrap with an AR when you run with it so it just doesn't make sense to be doing a thumb dance.
 
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I recently tried one of the vertical Ergo grips on my precision AR and found I couldnt control the rifle nearly as well. I did this to try and move towards a thumb over shooting grip and have even installed a Ambi 45 degree safety to make it into a thumb shelf. I will be keeping this in mind as I test it and see how it impacts my shooting capability and control of the weapon.
 
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When shooting defensive drills or from various other field positions I use a traditional grip. The traditional grip provides better support of the weapon when moving and retention of the weapon if such a scenario should ever develop. When shooting off a bipod or the bench I continue to use a traditional grip to maintain consistency of form and reinforce “muscle memory.”

People who use the “precision grip” like to delude themselves in thinking that they are doing something original and superior to the traditional grip. If the precision grip works for them that’s great, but I’ve not found it to be superior to the traditional grip. Until someone from the precision grip crowd can provide proof that more precise 10-shot groups than the group pictured below can be fired from a 5.56/223 semi-automatic AR-15 while using the precision grip, I’ll continue to use the traditional grip.



55_blitzking_from_223_krieger_at_100_yar-2662704.jpg




…
 
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Ill add my .02$. Im pretty new to shooting large frame ars precisely and have spent quite a bit of time shooting groups the last few months developing loads. Ive gone back and forth trying to see wich grip works better for me and the traditional wins pretty easily. When shooting from a bipod i get my best groups with slight rearward pressure from my firing hand. With the thumb over grip i get left and right flyers more often. My favorite drill is 3 shots at 600y trying to get them all off before i hear the first one hit. Its almost impossible for me to drive the gun well enough without the traditional grip. Now with bolt guns its definitely the opposite for me but im also not trying to mitigate 3 recoil impulses with each trigger pull.
 
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I have tried both ways and as stated previously it is harder to make large movements with thumb not wrapped and it also makes it very easy to bump fire if you are not hard into the gun with a lighter weight rifle as this has actually happened to me. If I am shooting an AR I wrap my thumb now. With a little practice it will not hinder your precision in any way.
 
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I always wrap and use the grip like it was intended, especially on the large frames as it provides consistency and more control of the weapon system. It allows for correct grip and finger placement to properly manipulate the trigger.

When I see others who do not, they are usually hiding flaws in their fundamentals for a large frame. Get them into position shooting and that thumb stacked grip falls apart in so many ways they are not conscious of it.

The physical design of the grip itself plays a important part of this. A incorrect fitting grip will have someone start to use the thumb stack. Such as a Ergo grip with a person of smaller hands will not work like intended on a large frame.

Or, this person comes from using all these fine chassis of bolt guns, that the chassis design and AR type grips have a lot of space between the trigger and grip and have to use the thumb stack. Since that person thinks it works on a chassis, translates that over to a large frame, and keeps building off that.

Just thoughts.
 
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8up said:
I always wrap and use the grip like it was intended, especially on the large frames as it provides consistency and more control of the weapon system. It allows for correct grip and finger placement to properly manipulate the trigger.

When I see others who do not, they are usually hiding flaws in their fundamentals for a large frame. Get them into position shooting and that thumb stacked grip falls apart in so many ways they are not conscious of it.

The physical design of the grip itself plays a important part of this. A incorrect fitting grip will have someone start to use the thumb stack. Such as a Ergo grip with a person of smaller hands will not work like intended on a large frame.

Or, this person comes from using all these fine chassis of bolt guns, that the chassis design and AR type grips have a lot of space between the trigger and grip and have to use the thumb stack. Since that person thinks it works on a chassis, translates that over to a large frame, and keeps building off that.

Just thoughts.
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Man that’s great input
 
I find the more grippy the grip surface, the more rests there are for thumbs or bases of hands, the more stress present, the more I overdo grip input which causes inaccuracy. However, all of the above is situationally dependent.

-Stan
 
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If a small change like a floating the thumb makes you shoot better, you can guarantee all it’s doing is helping you apply a fundamental. Floating the thumb, loading the bipod, or any other “tip” that works is typically an inadvertent way to apply correct form. The floating thumb does two things. It helps deter you from steering with your firing hand, and it makes it easier to get a 90deg angle and isolate your index finger on the trigger. If you know that this is why you shoot better with a floating thumb, you’ll be able to shoot just as good with a wrapped thumb.
 
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Precision Underground said:
If a small change like a floating the thumb makes you shoot better, you can guarantee all it’s doing is helping you apply a fundamental. Floating the thumb, loading the bipod, or any other “tip”. The floating thumb does two things. It helps deter you from steering with your firing hand, and it makes it easier to get a 90deg angle and isolate your index finger on the trigger. If you know that this is why you shoot better with a floating thumb, you’ll be able to shoot just as good with a wrapped thumb.
Click to expand...

The 90 degree press is why I started floating my thumb on my bolt gun. With my long fingers it helps me a lot from getting too far on the trigger and keeping that 90 degree. Now that I am accustom to finding my pad to press I may not need to do it but I don't see any harm in it for my bolt gun. I do have to really think about it with my AR but putting the MDT grip on a few has helped a lot with that for me.
 
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These discussions are why I like this site. I think it comes down to executing the fundamentals as principles more than a "pure" form figure. Positional shooting highlights this extensively. Some shooting positions totally preclude the ability to use "proper" form. Incidentally, this is the main reason why I prefer a curved trigger over a flat blade. If I cannot get into a traditional shooting position then I can still get a good trigger press in.
 
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Precision Underground said:
If a small change like a floating the thumb makes you shoot better, you can guarantee all it’s doing is helping you apply a fundamental. Floating the thumb, loading the bipod, or any other “tip”. The floating thumb does two things. It helps deter you from steering with your firing hand, and it makes it easier to get a 90deg angle and isolate your index finger on the trigger. If you know that this is why you shoot better with a floating thumb, you’ll be able to shoot just as good with a wrapped thumb.
Click to expand...
Man I like how you said that
 
BuildingConceptsllc said:
The 90 degree press is why I started floating my thumb on my bolt gun. With my long fingers it helps me a lot from getting too far on the trigger and keeping that 90 degree. Now that I am accustom to finding my pad to press I may not need to do it but I don't see any harm in it for my bolt gun. I do have to really think about it with my AR but putting the MDT grip on a few has helped a lot with that for me.
Click to expand...
I don’t see any problem on a bolt gun. But that’s also how the grips on most bolt guns are intended to work. Additionally most bolt guns have a thumb shelf or index point for your thumb. And that intentional
 
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I think the equipment and situation should always be part of the discussion. Competition guns can get away with certain techniques and benefit in competition use. It doesn't mean that's THE way it has to be done. You usually do have to modify technique a bit to accommodate equipment, use, recoil, trigger, slow vs rapid fire, etc. I've seen guys try (and fail) to do longer, offhand shots with an AR using an extended c-clamp grip up front because that's the way they shoot close and fast. Personally, I just like my firing hand to be firmly attached to support the 90 degree press and follow through. How that is accomplished can vary.
 
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I would say that, using a trigger with pull weight under, say 4 lbs, that I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt there is anyone who doesn't do accidental discharge using an AR platform once in a while (using precision grip). This is not a good grip for AR15, no way. When ur using a bolt gun in a sled, then that makes sense.

For AR15's, if I see people doing precision grip for anything that involves "run and gun" or "stations", I would say it actually slows you down, and is a terrible grip choice. Terrible. This is not one of those "if it works best for you, use it". This is people making choices to use inferior grips for AR15's. No way is that good. no way.
 
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semperfireloading said:
I would say that, using a trigger with pull weight under, say 4 lbs, that I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt there is anyone who doesn't do accidental discharge using an AR platform once in a while (using precision grip). This is not a good grip for AR15, no way. When ur using a bolt gun in a sled, then that makes sense.

For AR15's, if I see people doing precision grip for anything that involves "run and gun" or "stations", I would say it actually slows you down, and is a terrible grip choice. Terrible. This is not one of those "if it works best for you, use it". This is people making choices to use inferior grips for AR15's. No way is that good. no way.
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I would agree that unintended discharges is definitley not "working best for you". I think precision underground said it best about floating the thumb helping you to do things that you should be able to do with a wrapped thumb.
 
I use a full grip on AR's.

Couple points:

1. The width of the AR grip when wrapping your thumb is just .850"-.900". There's no good reason to float if the guns set up well.
On the other hand all of my bolt guns like Manners, J-Allen, KRG, & ARC Xylo are much wider at the grip area. The back of the grip on bolt guns is also farther from the trigger shoe. Even many of the chassis that use an AR type grip utilize a much wider grip such as the MDT vertical Elite. If using a std width AR grip on a bolt chassis the safety is still on the right side high for a right handed shooter. All good reasons to float your thumb on bolt guns, but not applicable to AR's

I briefly played around with an MKM narrow vertical Ar grip with the thumb shelf. Floating my thumb still didn't make sense due to the safety. If I'm going to float I'm not going to do a reach around to hit the damn safety when moving positions. With the safety on fire, the thumb shelf prevents you from getting your thumb under the safety from the ambi side. This grip also pushes your palm back so it's not ideal for wrapping your thumb if you want a 90 degree trigger press.
IMG_7331.JPG


2. Grip angle and shape hasn't really been brought up in this discussion, but I think it's important. Shooting PRS style matches with an AR there are compromises. I try to square up behind the gun as much as possible & tend to run a shortish length of pull. Even prone I run the bipod high to keep my head more vertical. This all leads to having my right elbow dropped and a more vertical grip angle is more comfortable especially when wrapping my thumb and trying to maintain the 90 degree trigger press. Likewise a narrow grip profile gives me more leeway to reach the trigger from compromised positions.

I've pretty much settled on the BCM mod 3 grip angle for all my AR's. The Wilson starburst grip is a BCM mod 3 just different texture (my current favorite). The VZ grip also shares the BCM mod 3 grip angle.
IMG_7442.jpg

IMG_6842.jpg
 
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reubenski said:
My impression is some "trainer" is over agonizing a relatively small technique in an effort to get "deep". In the grand scheme of things switching your thumb as you get into and out of position is small potatoes.
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I’m sure your a great shooter. Who’d be fine shooting whichever way. But for the dozens of students who come through our courses a year. Grip is a very real factor in their shot process.

I do think there is a bit of overthinking to it. It’s pretty simple, use the grip the way it was designed…..

But more so, choosing to run thumb over leads you to believe your getting something you’re not. But what you are doing is sacrificing something that is ultimately very important; CONTROL.

Thanks for the input.
 
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I've tried both ways and I found choosing the correct grip (the actual grip) effects how well I shoot the rifle. As mentioned for me the BCM mod 3 grip is ideal and I prefer to wrap my thumb instead of floating to keep better control over the rifle.
 
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FUNCTIONAL said:
I've tried both ways and I found choosing the correct grip (the actual grip) effects how well I shoot the rifle. As mentioned for me the BCM mod 3 grip is ideal and I prefer to wrap my thumb instead of floating to keep better control over the rifle.
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that’s huge and where I was going next with my input.

What we should look to do is Isolate Sympathetic Movement while using a standard grip technique. This can be done with properly set-up rifles, hand position and choosing a Rifle Grip that fits your hand correctly.

7E215EA5-632A-4AC9-A9B7-E20DE18C69FF.jpeg
 
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CR2 SS said:
But more so, choosing to run thumb over leads you to believe your getting something you’re not. But what you are doing is sacrificing something that is ultimately very important; CONTROL.
Click to expand...

This. It also leads certain groups of tacticool precision instructers to believe that they're offering something that their not.

..
 
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CR2 SS said:
What we should look to do is Isolate Sympathetic Movement while using a standard grip technique.
Click to expand...
This again. There are people who believe that overcoming sympathetic movement is something that requires some "innovative" approach to holding the grip. These people have obviously never played a musical instrument.

...
 
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CR2 SS said:
I’m sure your a great shooter. Who’d be fine shooting whichever way. But for the dozens of students who come through our courses a year. Grip is a very real factor in their shot process.

I do think there is a bit of overthinking to it. It’s pretty simple, use the grip the way it was designed…..

But more so, choosing to run thumb over leads you to believe your getting something you’re not. But what you are doing is sacrificing something that is ultimately very important; CONTROL.

Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...
Be sure to make the distinction between control of the rifle and control of the reticle. A lot of people don’t realize there’s a difference. The firing hand is the main control point for the rifle but its job is not to aim the rifle. Its job is to keep the rifle pointed in a safe direction and to bring it into position. Once in position the firing hand should only be used to pull straight in and connect the rifle to the shooter. A lot, a lot of ppl use the grip to steer the rifle. One reason the floating thumb helps ppl is bc it makes it harder to steer and easier to only pull straight into the shoulder. To the guy trying it with success it seems like a magic grip but in reality it just promotes a fundamental(one of my fundamentals anyway) that can and should be applied no matter what grip is used.
 
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Precision Underground said:
Be sure to make the distinction between control of the rifle and control of the reticle. A lot of people don’t realize there’s a difference.
Click to expand...
Agreed, it can be used improperly to "muscle" the reticle on target. I feel like if they are using their firing hand to hold the reticle on target, the are likely also using other muscles to do so as well and likely they will still do so no matter the grip. But nonetheless a good point to bring up.
 
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Dogtown said:
"I only shoot pistols with my thumb on the outside now because I'm desperate to fit in" <drops pistol>
Click to expand...
I see your issue here... the key is that when you hold your pistol sideways over your head, you rotate it to to the right so your thumb is underneath. Proper form is key here.
 
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Precision Underground said:
Be sure to make the distinction between control of the rifle and control of the reticle. A lot of people don’t realize there’s a difference. The firing hand is the main control point for the rifle but its job is not to aim the rifle. Its job is to keep the rifle pointed in a safe direction and to bring it into position. Once in position the firing hand should only be used to pull straight in and connect the rifle to the shooter. A lot, a lot of ppl use the grip to steer the rifle. One reason the floating thumb helps ppl is bc it makes it harder to steer and easier to only pull straight into the shoulder. To the guy trying it with success it seems like a magic grip but in reality it just promotes a fundamental(one of my fundamentals anyway) that can and should be applied no matter what grip is used.
Click to expand...
I agree to an extent….

This lack of control from the “Precision Grip” will minimize our ability to control CANT. The AR platform is tippy due to a higher center of gravity.

Maybe this is what you’re referring to steering? I think it’s a very important component or grip.

Additionally, we minimize our recoil management and follow-thru. AR’s have a unique recoil impulse because of it’s reciprocating parts.

Shooters using this technique can see some benefit with trigger finger placement and manipulation. But often the lack of control will magnify poor fundamentals.
 
I like the full grip on and AR precision gun. I think the whole point of using an AR precision gun over a BA is fast follow up shots and when doing that I like the control of a full grip to really control the gun and make any quicker movements.
 
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CR2 SS said:
I agree to an extent….

This lack of control from the “Precision Grip” will minimize our ability to control CANT. The AR platform is tippy due to a higher center of gravity.

Maybe this is what you’re referring to steering? I think it’s a very important component or grip.

Additionally, we minimize our recoil management and follow-thru. AR’s have a unique recoil impulse because of it’s reciprocating parts.

Shooters using this technique can see some benefit with trigger finger placement and manipulation. But often the lack of control will magnify poor fundamentals.
Click to expand...
-Didn’t mean to write a post this long winded, but I’m a rifle fundamental/rear bag geek and dissect this stuff in my head all day. None of it is meant to say I know more or my philosophy is best, just for discussion-

I don’t use a floating thumb a lot but I do with one chassis that we have. I don’t feel like I’ve ever had trouble controlling/adjusting cant with a floating thumb. IMO cant is less tied to physically being able to adjust/control it and more tied to whether or not someone has the awareness and/or ability to recognize that the reticle is canted so they can do something about it. A lot of less experienced shooters (and some experienced)can’t perceive a canted reticle. A lot lack the awareness to notice it in the moment even if they can perceive it.

What I mean by control is (IMO) you really shouldn’t be using your firing hand to steer the reticle onto the target. This is foreign to a lot of people because it seems like that’s what the grip is for. But when your body position is set(assuming you have a good body pos) all you should do with the firing hand is pull straight into your shoulder. That’s your true NPA. If you’re pulling(steering) left or right or putting any out of line force on the rifle in order to get the reticle on the target, it’s taking you off your true NPA. A true NPA is the key to straight-back/in line recoil. Managed, straight back/in line recoil is a huge key for consistency. Consistency is the master key precision rifle. You can pull straight into your shoulder the exact same way each time. You can’t steer the rifle to the target the same each time bc you’ll be starting from a different place each time.
 
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Precision Underground said:
-Didn’t mean to write a post this long winded, but I’m a rifle fundamental/rear bag geek and dissect this stuff in my head all day. None of it is meant to say I know more or my philosophy is best, just for discussion-

I don’t use a floating thumb a lot but I do with one chassis that we have. I don’t feel like I’ve ever had trouble controlling/adjusting cant with a floating thumb. IMO cant is less tied to physically being able to adjust/control it and more tied to whether or not someone has the awareness and/or ability to recognize that the reticle is canted so they can do something about it. A lot of less experienced shooters (and some experienced)can’t perceive a canted reticle. A lot lack the awareness to notice it in the moment even if they can perceive it.

What I mean by control is (IMO) you really shouldn’t be using your firing hand to steer the reticle onto the target. This is foreign to a lot of people because it seems like that’s what the grip is for. But when your body position is set(assuming you have a good body pos) all you should do with the firing hand is pull straight into your shoulder. That’s your true NPA. If you’re pulling(steering) left or right or putting any out of line force on the rifle in order to get the reticle on the target, it’s taking you off your true NPA. A true NPA is the key to straight-back/in line recoil. Managed, straight back/in line recoil is a huge key for consistency. Consistency is the master key precision rifle. You can pull straight into your shoulder the exact same way each time. You can’t steer the rifle to the target the same each time bc you’ll be starting from a different place each time.
Click to expand...
Great explanation. Thanks for that.
 
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