Defiance action new costs?!

Kms33kms said:

Yea I seen where they got bought out. Just didn’t know of the price hike

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MarshallDodge said:

The market sets the prices. Defiance has more business than they can handle right now and may be teetering on the edge of profitability.

Look at the custom 1911 world. The prices have doubled in the last 10 years and you can't find a Wilson CQB for under $3K!

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TheOE800 said:

Hope it doesn’t give the rest of the market ideas.

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Kms33kms said:

Yea my Dan Wessons are over 2k now

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Eric Stecker EG said:

I wrote both. The post you link is our announcement that Defiance has a new owner. My post on this thread is in response to the price change that occurred after the purchase. Both are accurate.

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Kms33kms said:

Ordered my tenacity short action a couple months ago , right before they changed ownership , just so happen to look at a couple websites just now and my action is
Now selling for $1,600….
I paid lile $950 after my veterans discount for mine. Do all companies plan on hiking up their prices like that? Or is this a bold move from defiance and hurt them? I love my action , hands down , my first ever bad ass custom action , but if I didn’t get the deal I got a couple months ago and these things were these new prices , then I would have had to get zermatt origin. Just curious what you all think?

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Eric Stecker EG said:

We both speak for Defiance. I haven't read the other thread. Frankly, I don't have time for deep dives on forums. What I say comes from me and what I know. If I've said anything contrary to a statement from @Defiance Machine I'd like to know about it.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

Not to get political but this/inflation is what happens when you print money and send it out to everyone for no exchange in value. I'm with you on this point. We are doing our best to survive in these "interesting" times.

Devaluation of the dollar and Inflation are the same thing.

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stanley_white said:

The time you don't have for deep dives on internet forums mirrors the time I don't have time to look for incongruence between public statements.

However, I will offer three observations...

First, in the original thread, @Defiance Machine said "We will not go into the details of everything discovered leading up to recent events and changes, because frankly no one is entitled to that information outside of Defiance, and it's not open for discussion."

And now, in this thread, I have you going into details and possibly opening the details up for discussion, which shows me (and others) a gap in public personas, which can cause confidence to lessen.

Second, it is confusing for possible customers to have to sort between multiple public personas for Defiance on a forum.

Third, under the idea of "If you're explaining you're losing," I submit that trying to have a discussion with every single person on this forum is less valuable than fixing Defiance and letting your actions (pun intended) speak louder than your internet discussions.

Thank you for your consideration.

Good luck.

-Stan

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Kms33kms said:

I have dealt with price hikes before. I have never dealt with a product going from $950 to $1,600.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

Neither have I. If we could avoid it we would.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

Having worked in the premium firearms market all my career I can assure everyone that "it costs too much" is and has always been the #1 complaint against premium products. I am a reasonable person who listens to customers and wants all our brands to be successful. Throughout my career I've priced our products as fairly as possible keeping this #1 complaint always in mind. This will continue to be the case into the future.

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Edds said:

Eric, You said "Outlaw". Did you mean "Outcast" or did you reveal the name of a new action?

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Baron23 said:

Sort of wonder WTF was making financial decisions to spend a ton on new capital equipment if the company's financials were marginal at best.

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Rocketmandb said:

As someone who has been involved in fundraising over the last few years, I can say, and you likely already know, that the entire world has dramatically changed from a capital raising perspective in the last year. Up until Q1 of 2022, capital was cheap and easy to get. Then the shit hit the fan pretty much overnight.

- Interest rates going up mean that funds managers have safer (albeit less upside) options for where to put their money
- Supply chain issues mean that it takes longer to get product out the door, which lowers revenue, which in turn lowers a company's valuation and runway, which in turn impacts its ability to raise money
- Investors are now much warier of risk - money is tougher to come by

Many companies are "guilty" of making decisions in the 2021 version of the market, only to be caught dramatically by surprise in the realities of 2022.

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Baron23 said:

Whether the money costs more to borrow or not, the principal of the debt still needs to be paid for and decisions wrt incurring such debt must be made in consideration of the company’s financial health and ability to pay it off.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

For the record, the price increase was necessary to keep Defiance open. I won't go into the deep details but instead I'll offer that I've been in the firearms industry for 32 years. Prior to my role at McMillan and Defiance I was President and Owner of Berger and then President of Capstone when Berger was sold. I am intimately familiar with premium product pricing and the impact of price changes on the firearms market.

After leaving Berger/Capstone and taking a short semi-retirement, Kelly made me GM of McMillan. When McMillan was purchased, the company health situation was very different than Defiance. McMillan had its issues as all companies do but it was healthy enough that we had time to adjust slowly and deliberately.

This was not the case at Defiance. I can't predict the future in a multi-verse but in looking at the deal there were strong, real-world indicators that Defiance was heading rapidly to closure. Despite this poor condition, Bob Beck believed strongly in the brand and the people who make the products. It was based on this (almost exclusively) that he went forward with the deal despite all indicators clearly offering that keeping Defiance open would be risky to say the least.

The price increase and the speed at which it is being implemented are required in our efforts to keep Defiance open and get it back to stable health.

A couple things to keep in mind are that Bob has taken on a great risk to keep a company open that many others wouldn't touch. I am basically living in MT while my home and family (including a new granddaughter who is perfect) is in AZ. Bob and I have a combined experience in the firearms industry of over 50 years. On top of that we have a tremendous team at both McMillan and Defiance (all of which stayed after the sale except for those responsible for financials). If you think our collective group are not capable, considerate people with enough experience to know what this change means and would have done anything to avoid or minimize it, you are not letting our collective record speak for itself.

If you think that the price change and rapid implementation has anything to do with a money grab, you are simply wrong. Everyone who purchased a Defiance action, specifically the anTi, Outcast and Tenacity before the price increase can thank Defiance for the extra cash that was put into the box when your action shipped. You may not have seen it, but I assure you, Defiance gave it to you. The other actions were anemic enough that the situation was dire and urgent.

The price change, discount restructure and Bob's infusion of finance has now put Defiance on stable ground. From a financial health score point of view, Defiance is in better shape than it has been for a long time.

We are doing all we can to price all our products fairly. We've added an additional volume discount level for builders. We are close to announcing a new action that will be priced lower than the others but will have controls on options and volume requirements. We are working toward increasing output and expanding capacity. There are even going to be a few surprises in new action offerings and additional support for gun builders.

Having worked in the premium firearms market all my career I can assure everyone that "it costs too much" is and has always been the #1 complaint against premium products. I am a reasonable person who listens to customers and wants all our brands to be successful. Throughout my career I've priced our products as fairly as possible keeping this #1 complaint always in mind. This will continue to be the case into the future.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
COO Extreme Group

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Baron23 said:

I have one rifle that uses a Deviant with a Bartlein MTU barrel spun up by Altus and I love it…the barrel, the action, TT Diamond, and the Altus gunsmithing. Just wanted to get it out that I'm very pleased with my decision to purchase the Deviant.

With that said, and in consideration of more information about the poor financial health of Defiance (presumably being rectified by new owners as fast as possible), did we all not see Defiance posting vids of lots of new high end CNC machines this past year? They were posted in the Machinist Monday thread started by Defiance.

Sort of wonder WTF was making financial decisions to spend a ton on new capital equipment if the company's financials were marginal at best. Yes, I get that new/expanded production equipment efficiencies can contribute greatly cost control and revenue, but....it does not sound like the dire straights of Defiance financials is a very recent occurance.

Just strikes me as strange but my bottom line view remains that Defiance internals are really none of my business. If the product and price don't match your requirements, don't buy one. If they do, go forth.

Sort of the end of the story for me.

With that said, I do wish Defiance all the best.

Cheers

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XTREM HTR16 said:

Watch or listen to the LRO podcast on Youtube. You'll gain more knowledge on the CNC machines....

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Eric Stecker EG said:

For the record, the price increase was necessary to keep Defiance open. I won't go into the deep details but instead I'll offer that I've been in the firearms industry for 32 years. Prior to my role at McMillan and Defiance I was President and Owner of Berger and then President of Capstone when Berger was sold. I am intimately familiar with premium product pricing and the impact of price changes on the firearms market.

After leaving Berger/Capstone and taking a short semi-retirement, Kelly made me GM of McMillan. When McMillan was purchased, the company health situation was very different than Defiance. McMillan had its issues as all companies do but it was healthy enough that we had time to adjust slowly and deliberately.

This was not the case at Defiance. I can't predict the future in a multi-verse but in looking at the deal there were strong, real-world indicators that Defiance was heading rapidly to closure. Despite this poor condition, Bob Beck believed strongly in the brand and the people who make the products. It was based on this (almost exclusively) that he went forward with the deal despite all indicators clearly offering that keeping Defiance open would be risky to say the least.

The price increase and the speed at which it is being implemented are required in our efforts to keep Defiance open and get it back to stable health.

A couple things to keep in mind are that Bob has taken on a great risk to keep a company open that many others wouldn't touch. I am basically living in MT while my home and family (including a new granddaughter who is perfect) is in AZ. Bob and I have a combined experience in the firearms industry of over 50 years. On top of that we have a tremendous team at both McMillan and Defiance (all of which stayed after the sale except for those responsible for financials). If you think our collective group are not capable, considerate people with enough experience to know what this change means and would have done anything to avoid or minimize it, you are not letting our collective record speak for itself.

If you think that the price change and rapid implementation has anything to do with a money grab, you are simply wrong. Everyone who purchased a Defiance action, specifically the anTi, Outcast and Tenacity before the price increase can thank Defiance for the extra cash that was put into the box when your action shipped. You may not have seen it, but I assure you, Defiance gave it to you. The other actions were anemic enough that the situation was dire and urgent.

The price change, discount restructure and Bob's infusion of finance has now put Defiance on stable ground. From a financial health score point of view, Defiance is in better shape than it has been for a long time.

We are doing all we can to price all our products fairly. We've added an additional volume discount level for builders. We are close to announcing a new action that will be priced lower than the others but will have controls on options and volume requirements. We are working toward increasing output and expanding capacity. There are even going to be a few surprises in new action offerings and additional support for gun builders.

Having worked in the premium firearms market all my career I can assure everyone that "it costs too much" is and has always been the #1 complaint against premium products. I am a reasonable person who listens to customers and wants all our brands to be successful. Throughout my career I've priced our products as fairly as possible keeping this #1 complaint always in mind. This will continue to be the case into the future.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
COO Extreme Group

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Baron23 said:

Ah, listened to most of it but I didn't see where they necessarily addressed the decision process that resulted in a company that was going underwater financially nonetheless acquiring more very expensive CNC machines in the last year. Or, I perhaps didn't hear it.

I did hear them talking about 7 figure $$ machines some of which were apparently being underutilized or utilized for products that represent a small percentage of sales. Or at least I think that's what I heard.

And comments on this?

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benson821 said:

Eric,

We have been carrying Defiance for the life of the business (going on 6 years now) and only in the past year and a half we started a marking variance and purchasing more actions than we did before. The problem I am seeing as a dealer who was signed onto a private label marking variance is removing our pricing structure that we paid upfront for to get our names on the actions and get the best deal we can on them being a small brick and mortar operation. As well as for what I am understanding the actions I have paid half down on almost a year ago to the day now will reflect a price increase for the remaining 2nd half upon shipment. I have had customers money in hand for almost a year, they have been waiting patiently, and for what I now understand I have to call them and ask for more money to get the action that I quoted them a year ago. It's one thing with small increases like we had last year where we could break up the price with other components and labor, we wouldn't be building at a loss but we were just above breaking even. But depending on customers decision/attitude we will have to possibly refund their entire build, with parts we already have had them pay for and are sitting waiting for the action to be built.

Depending on how this progresses moving forward with Defiance and our customers this decision could put our business, that has been built up with 100+ hour weeks during covid years, in a very tight spot moving forward.

Alex

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Eric Stecker EG said:

This is a very real problem we are working to solve. There is one correction to your comments (you weren't wrong, we changed the policy). Any order that was secured with a deposit will be delivered at the original price. We initially did as you relayed but after more feedback and discussion, we withdrew this requirement.

We are working through the private marking variance issue which is a serious problem. Many people were paying the money for the marking variance to be immediately given the full 22% discount. They could do this when ordering a single action. They basically prepaid a fixed amount to obtain the deepest discount that applied forever.

Under normal circumstances discounts are given to customers who buy in enough volume that it offsets operating costs. It is also a way to entice customers to buy in greater volume (to offset operating costs). Lifetime discounts based on prepayments is a horrible financial health policy. I can't explain why it was done this way in the past, but I can assure you that for the sake of keeping Defiance open, it can't continue.

Having said that, after making sure Defiance will stay open, we are considering every possible way that we can make this transition easier for everyone.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

This is a very real problem we are working to solve. There is one correction to your comments (you weren't wrong, we changed the policy). Any order that was secured with a deposit will be delivered at the original price. We initially did as you relayed but after more feedback and discussion, we withdrew this requirement.

We are working through the private marking variance issue which is a serious problem. Many people were paying the money for the marking variance to be immediately given the full 22% discount. They could do this when ordering a single action. They basically prepaid a fixed amount to obtain the deepest discount that applied forever.

Under normal circumstances discounts are given to customers who buy in enough volume that it offsets operating costs. It is also a way to entice customers to buy in greater volume (to offset operating costs). Lifetime discounts based on prepayments is a horrible financial health policy. I can't explain why it was done this way in the past, but I can assure you that for the sake of keeping Defiance open, it can't continue.

Having said that, after making sure Defiance will stay open, we are considering every possible way that we can make this transition easier for everyone.

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MDof2 said:

Deposit or not, you had an agreement with your customer(s) to deliver a product at a specific price/terms/conditions. You then changed that without their approval or consideration.
Put any spin you want on it but that's bad business.

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hoodoo said:

I have a hard time believing Glenn ran one of the most successful action business's for the last 10 years, and after only 1 month of new ownership it's determined Defiance can't remain open for 1 more month without drastically increasing pricing. (Granted, Glenn does have a track record for poor ownership...) But Defiance was pumping out over 1000 actions a month, you can do the math yourself...

Add in the fact new ownership throws Glenn under the bus at any given chance, there's definitely more going on.

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hoodoo said:

I have a hard time believing Glenn ran one of the most successful action business's for the last 10 years, and after only 1 month of new ownership it's determined Defiance can't remain open for 1 more month without drastically increasing pricing. (Granted, Glenn does have a track record for poor ownership...) But Defiance was pumping out over 1000 actions a month, you can do the math yourself...

Add in the fact new ownership throws Glenn under the bus at any given chance, there's definitely more going on.

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Hobo Hilton said:

View attachment 8042571

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Eric Stecker EG said:

I've never mentioned a name and won't make this discussion personal. I have no idea who or how these conditions came into existence as I wasn't there. Frankly, how it happened doesn't matter to us. All we can do is address the situation as it is now and how we go forward in the best possible way.

We are focused on helping people understand why the price changed as much as it did. Our reasons are facts, not opinions. If we didn't explain the truth of the matter and allow speculation and rumor to dominate the conversation it will have serious negative impact on the future health of Defiance.

I will say that if you lose money on any top selling products in any line, you can't make that up in volume. In fact, it gets worse as you sell more.

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Eric Stecker EG said:

Generally, what one believes and what actually happens in any situation can be two different things. Unless you are in the room when it happened, it usually is different by a little or a lot.

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