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80,000 PSI capable actions for Sig Fury

With the above post....knowing what I know and what I've seen so far.

And I can totally see someone on here is going to want to pick a fight but I'm standing my ground....

I've instructed all the guys in the office and anyone here that talks to customers...

You want to run at crazy velocities and or pressures....and your going to order a barrel from us and you tell me that your building a 6.5 super duper magnum or a similar round that runs at 80k psi. I will not warranty the barrel for accuracy, for fouling and or for barrel life and I'll throw safety in there as well. Too many things beyond our control.

Last I heard the ammo that will be available to the military will not be available to the commercial market. Has that changed? I don't know at this time but I guarantee if that is the case.... you are going to get this or that shooter...that said well... if the military can get 3100fps with a 140gr bullet out of this or that case....I'll just keep loading the case up until I get to 3100fps and that person or persons will not have any real hard data to back up what the pressure he is running at with this or that powder charge. I guarantee I will get.... well I don't have hard bolt lift! Primers are not flat! I can just see it coming already.

For the ammunition pressure test barrels they also had to come up with a pressure sensor that can operate at even higher pressure levels. I think the standard sensors are rated for 87k.
 
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Here is another concern... the cases are a hybrid. Steel case head and brass body. Under pressure these two materials will expand and relax differently.

Will this have an effect on the chamber and wear?

1674136764780.jpeg
 
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Frank Green said:
So anyone following this thread needs to ask themselves a few questions.

At these pressures and velocities.....

What is your accuracy requirement?

What is your expected barrel life?

How often do you plan on cleaning the barrel?
Click to expand...
ill answer for the hide:

less than .5 all day if i do my part, but my pet loads in a good node are easily under .3 and i have a few pictures in my wallet to prove it

minimum 8,000 rounds like a 308

i let the barrel tell me when to clean as accuracy falls off, then ill bitch about what barrel MFG is scum because they wont give me a new one or free chamber job


...people just dont understand the pressure they are quoting and how not only the case materials deform and become plastic but also the surrounding materials

its not as easy as adding a few grains and hoping not to pierce a primer
 
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brianf said:
ill answer for the hide:

less than .5 all day if i do my part, but my pet loads in a good node are easily under .3 and i have a few pictures in my wallet to prove it

minimum 8,000 rounds like a 308

i let the barrel tell me when to clean as accuracy falls off, then ill bitch about what barrel MFG is scum because they wont give me a new one or free chamber job


...people just dont understand the pressure they are quoting and how not only the case materials deform and become plastic but also the surrounding materials

its not as easy as adding a few grains and hoping not to pierce a primer
Click to expand...
You get it!

I'm going to tell you at these pressures and how the guy cleans the gun...your not going to see .5 all day and not even in the ball park for barrel life.
 
Frank Green said:
With the above post....knowing what I know and what I've seen so far.

And I can totally see someone on here is going to want to pick a fight but I'm standing my ground....

I've instructed all the guys in the office and anyone here that talks to customers...

You want to run at crazy velocities and or pressures....and your going to order a barrel from us and you tell me that your building a 6.5 super duper magnum or a similar round that runs at 80k psi. I will not warranty the barrel for accuracy, for fouling and or for barrel life and I'll throw safety in there as well. Too many things beyond our control.

Last I heard the ammo that will be available to the military will not be available to the commercial market. Has that changed? I don't know at this time but I guarantee if that is the case.... you are going to get this or that shooter...that said well... if the military can get 3100fps with a 140gr bullet out of this or that case....I'll just keep loading the case up until I get to 3100fps and that person or persons will not have any real hard data to back up what the pressure he is running at with this or that powder charge. I guarantee I will get.... well I don't have hard bolt lift! Primers are not flat! I can just see it coming already.

For the ammunition pressure test barrels they also had to come up with a pressure sensor that can operate at even higher pressure levels. I think the standard sensors are rated for 87k.
Click to expand...
Frank Green said:
Here is another concern... the cases are a hybrid. Steel case head and brass body. Under pressure these two materials will expand and relax differently.

Will this have an effect on the chamber and wear?

View attachment 8051676
Click to expand...

Sig is offering a high pressure hunting load for 277 Fury, with the bi-metal case. It is not the exact military load because, presumably, the military load will use a steel tipped bullet similar to the M855A1/M80A1. The Army owns the patent and refuses to allow their sale to civilians. But it is still a high pressure round nonetheless. Civilians are seeing 2900 fps out of a 13” barrel.

The cartridges and chambers have been extensively tested during the years of development and trials for the NGSW/XM5/M7.

Sig, with their barrel, is seeing 12k round lifespan for the barrels. More than the program’s 5k requirement. If you’re manufacturing a stainless 277 fury/6.8x51 barrel for precision, then yes I’m sure barrel life will be short.
 
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Frank Green said:
With the above post....knowing what I know and what I've seen so far.

And I can totally see someone on here is going to want to pick a fight but I'm standing my ground....

I've instructed all the guys in the office and anyone here that talks to customers...

You want to run at crazy velocities and or pressures....and your going to order a barrel from us and you tell me that your building a 6.5 super duper magnum or a similar round that runs at 80k psi. I will not warranty the barrel for accuracy, for fouling and or for barrel life and I'll throw safety in there as well. Too many things beyond our control.

Last I heard the ammo that will be available to the military will not be available to the commercial market. Has that changed? I don't know at this time but I guarantee if that is the case.... you are going to get this or that shooter...that said well... if the military can get 3100fps with a 140gr bullet out of this or that case....I'll just keep loading the case up until I get to 3100fps and that person or persons will not have any real hard data to back up what the pressure he is running at with this or that powder charge. I guarantee I will get.... well I don't have hard bolt lift! Primers are not flat! I can just see it coming already.

For the ammunition pressure test barrels they also had to come up with a pressure sensor that can operate at even higher pressure levels. I think the standard sensors are rated for 87k.
Click to expand...
What would it take for you to be comfortable selling a barrel for an 80K PSI cartridge?
 
Franko said:
What would it take for you to be comfortable selling a barrel for an 80K PSI cartridge?
Click to expand...
a bigger tenon diameter

stronger material action

stronger material bolt head

stronger material action lugs / if separate from action

large gas escape ports (2 is preferable)

"fat ass" bolt so if there is blow by you have a debris shield for your eyes

pressure is not linear, it spikes exponentially when it gets to a certain point when using smokeless powder

80k running compared to 65k running pressure is a big difference in proof and catastrophic stresses on a action

small tenon barrel start flexing and the case expands more than normal, now you have all sorts of stuff moving around

comes time to extract and the case is getting squeezed back down to original chamber dims, and extraction gets more difficult

...so you pull it out harder with a stronger extractor and bolt handle..now your worried about ripping up the chamber

add some moisture to the chamber and the bolt thrust goes up and adds even more sheer force to the lugs..im not worried about the action or barrel splitting, i worry about the lugs letting go and you eating a bolt body in the eye.

bad heat treats, and stresses can occur and not get caught by QC checks, so if shooting 80-85k the action better be over built to handle it

in a previous life the only people who were going to get the higher pressure ammunition were ones who had a proper OEM rifle with OEM barrels on file of that caliber etc

its only a matter of time until some basement gunsmith chambers a barrel for his rusty model 70 from 1950 for the new ammo, and has a bad day


im sure smarter people will chime in but the barrel will do it fine, its the rest of the system that needs to be designed properly
 
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brianf said:
a bigger tenon diameter

stronger material action

stronger material bolt head

stronger material action lugs / if separate from action

large gas escape ports (2 is preferable)

"fat ass" bolt so if there is blow by you have a debris shield for your eyes

pressure is not linear, it spikes exponentially when it gets to a certain point when using smokeless powder

80k running compared to 65k running pressure is a big difference in proof and catastrophic stresses on a action

small tenon barrel start flexing and the case expands more than normal, now you have all sorts of stuff moving around

comes time to extract and the case is getting squeezed back down to original chamber dims, and extraction gets more difficult

...so you pull it out harder with a stronger extractor and bolt handle..now your worried about ripping up the chamber

add some moisture to the chamber and the bolt thrust goes up and adds even more sheer force to the lugs..im not worried about the action or barrel splitting, i worry about the lugs letting go and you eating a bolt body in the eye.

bad heat treats, and stresses can occur and not get caught by QC checks, so if shooting 80-85k the action better be over built to handle it

in a previous life the only people who were going to get the higher pressure ammunition were ones who had a proper OEM rifle with OEM barrels on file of that caliber etc

its only a matter of time until some basement gunsmith chambers a barrel for his rusty model 70 from 1950 for the new ammo, and has a bad day


im sure smarter people will chime in but the barrel will do it fine, its the rest of the system that needs to be designed properly
Click to expand...
So it's going to be a full platform change to get us to 80K; which means not any time soon. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
 
brianf said:
a bigger tenon diameter

stronger material action

stronger material bolt head

stronger material action lugs / if separate from action

large gas escape ports (2 is preferable)

"fat ass" bolt so if there is blow by you have a debris shield for your eyes

pressure is not linear, it spikes exponentially when it gets to a certain point when using smokeless powder

80k running compared to 65k running pressure is a big difference in proof and catastrophic stresses on a action

small tenon barrel start flexing and the case expands more than normal, now you have all sorts of stuff moving around

comes time to extract and the case is getting squeezed back down to original chamber dims, and extraction gets more difficult

...so you pull it out harder with a stronger extractor and bolt handle..now your worried about ripping up the chamber

add some moisture to the chamber and the bolt thrust goes up and adds even more sheer force to the lugs..im not worried about the action or barrel splitting, i worry about the lugs letting go and you eating a bolt body in the eye.

bad heat treats, and stresses can occur and not get caught by QC checks, so if shooting 80-85k the action better be over built to handle it

in a previous life the only people who were going to get the higher pressure ammunition were ones who had a proper OEM rifle with OEM barrels on file of that caliber etc

its only a matter of time until some basement gunsmith chambers a barrel for his rusty model 70 from 1950 for the new ammo, and has a bad day


im sure smarter people will chime in but the barrel will do it fine, its the rest of the system that needs to be designed properly
Click to expand...
I can appreciate being very cautious with such things.

But this is already a solved problem. The 80k psi cartridges have been EXTENSIVELY tested with the NGSW program. There is nothing crazy going on with the new XM5/M7. It has a high pressure bolt. And of course the barrel and chamber are designed to handle the pressure. But neither are exotic materials or over built in size to a significant degree. The weak point was the case head.

And the Sig Cross is built to handle it too. Granted, I doubt the Cross has been tested with high pressure cartridges anwywhere near the degree that the XM5 was.
 
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Franko said:
So it's going to be a full platform change to get us to 80K; which means not any time soon. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
Click to expand...
I would hope so

the testing i paid for with the other projects showed that the bolt lugs of made of 4340 were not capable of;

85k running (that was out target) plus 25% proof testing, with a 50% safety margin on top

there was bolt lug set back at proof loads and overpressure points

4340 is a "better" material than 416SS (old rem 700 actions) and 4140 (almost every action body on the market)

companies can market what they want but NTS testing (NASA and military use them) say otherwise

i may be overly cautious but this is a hobby and selling a product to a customer needs more discipline, id like to keep all my parts working after a fun day at the range

when people get "clickers" on extraction..thats because the tenon and barrel expanded more than the material / design is capable of and is squeezing the case back to size causing extraction issues..we did that as well..by mistake and needed a redesign

this was one of the 4340 test results:

6.5 creedmoor chamber used for testing

purple and red were above the yield strength (ability to return to original shape) at 100k chamber pressure

thats 80K plus a proof testing of 20-25%..manditory in England (but not in the US for some stupid reason)..bolt lug set back occurs

materials and their properties arent special just because someone says they are

1674145182114.png
 
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brianf said:
I would hope so

the testing i paid for with the other projects showed that the bolt lugs of made of 4340 were not capable of;

85k running (that was out target) plus 25% proof testing, with a 50% safety margin on top

there was bolt lug set back at proof loads and overpressure points

4340 is a "better" material than 416SS (old rem 700 actions) and 4140 (almost every action body on the market)

companies can market what they want but NTS testing (NASA and military use them) say otherwise

i may be overly cautious but this is a hobby and selling a product to a customer needs more discipline, id like to keep all my parts working after a fun day at the range

when people get "clickers" on extraction..thats because the tenon and barrel expanded more than the material / design is capable of and is squeezing the case back to size causing extraction issues..we did that as well..by mistake and needed a redesign

this was one of the 4340 test results:

6.5 creedmoor chamber used for testing

purple and red were above the yield strength (ability to return to original shape) at 100k chamber pressure

thats 80K plus a proof testing of 20-25%..manditory in England (but not in the US for some stupid reason)..bolt lug set back occurs

materials and their properties arent special just because someone says they are

View attachment 8051783
Click to expand...
Not sure if you’re replying to me with “materials and their properties arent special just because someone says they are”. But I specifically said they did not use anything special.

The fact is that Sig has developed and tested the 80k PSI cartridge in the XM5 for over two years with at least tens of thousands of rounds fired. And the rifles are proof tested to 120k PSI.

It’s safe. I do not know the type of steel used for the bolt and barrel/chamber, but I don’t think it’s anything fancy. The ~60k PSI limit we have gone to for decades is due to the limitations of the cases. Not necessarily the bolts and chambers. Though yes, plenty of bolts and chambers are designed only up to the limit of the case plus a safety margin because there has been no need to design it to hold more… yet. But it wouldn’t take anything crazy to increase bolt and chamber capability up to 120k PSI proof loads. No exotic materials or super beefy components. The proof is in the NGSW program.
 
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Not debating your info or what sig has done..they aren’t a small company lol

Just putting the information I have out there for people to look at etc.

I hope the sig weapons work perfect,

More dead bad guys and more good guys coming home…win win in my eyes.
 
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brianf said:
Not debating your info or what sig has done..they aren’t a small company lol

Just putting the information I have out there for people to look at etc.

I hope the sig weapons work perfect,

More dead bad guys and more good guys coming home…win win in my eyes.
Click to expand...
I do appreciate you sharing that data. It is interesting and shows where some updates may need to be made to bolt gun bolt designs in order to work with the new higher pressure bi-metal cartridges.
 
brianf said:
I would hope so

the testing i paid for with the other projects showed that the bolt lugs of made of 4340 were not capable of;

85k running (that was out target) plus 25% proof testing, with a 50% safety margin on top

there was bolt lug set back at proof loads and overpressure points

4340 is a "better" material than 416SS (old rem 700 actions) and 4140 (almost every action body on the market)

companies can market what they want but NTS testing (NASA and military use them) say otherwise

i may be overly cautious but this is a hobby and selling a product to a customer needs more discipline, id like to keep all my parts working after a fun day at the range

when people get "clickers" on extraction..thats because the tenon and barrel expanded more than the material / design is capable of and is squeezing the case back to size causing extraction issues..we did that as well..by mistake and needed a redesign

this was one of the 4340 test results:

6.5 creedmoor chamber used for testing

purple and red were above the yield strength (ability to return to original shape) at 100k chamber pressure

thats 80K plus a proof testing of 20-25%..manditory in England (but not in the US for some stupid reason)..bolt lug set back occurs

materials and their properties arent special just because someone says they are

View attachment 8051783
Click to expand...
I'm wondering what difference there might be in bolt thrust using SIG's bimetal case.
 
Frank Green said:
With the above post....knowing what I know and what I've seen so far.

And I can totally see someone on here is going to want to pick a fight but I'm standing my ground....

I've instructed all the guys in the office and anyone here that talks to customers...

You want to run at crazy velocities and or pressures....and your going to order a barrel from us and you tell me that your building a 6.5 super duper magnum or a similar round that runs at 80k psi. I will not warranty the barrel for accuracy, for fouling and or for barrel life and I'll throw safety in there as well. Too many things beyond our control.

Last I heard the ammo that will be available to the military will not be available to the commercial market. Has that changed? I don't know at this time but I guarantee if that is the case.... you are going to get this or that shooter...that said well... if the military can get 3100fps with a 140gr bullet out of this or that case....I'll just keep loading the case up until I get to 3100fps and that person or persons will not have any real hard data to back up what the pressure he is running at with this or that powder charge. I guarantee I will get.... well I don't have hard bolt lift! Primers are not flat! I can just see it coming already.

For the ammunition pressure test barrels they also had to come up with a pressure sensor that can operate at even higher pressure levels. I think the standard sensors are rated for 87k.
Click to expand...

My understanding from the Sig rep I talked to was that only the bimetal hunting loads will be loaded to the same spec as military, and only warrantied as safe when used in the MCX Spear or the Cross.
I can perfectly understand any barrel manufacturers not warrantying barrels designed for wildcat projects based on new technologies. These are just that, new technologies, new materials, unproven, without enough long term data to know the performance.

Especially as the above means that not all of the processes barrel makers have perfected using other materials to make those kind of guarntees may apply equally well to new materials (such as the different alloys being used)
Personally, if and when I get around to doing my .375 Velociraptor project, it'll be a Bartlein barrel because I have faith in them, and only expect about ~4500-5000 rounds useful 'accurate' life (if that) because of the increased pressures. The main point of it would be to have a short-ish barrel semiauto with the same output as a .375 H&H elephant gun, so anything up to 2.5 MoA is 'acceptable' and still better than the old magnum hunting guns. 😎
 
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Tokay444 said:
I'm wondering what difference there might be in bolt thrust using SIG's bimetal case.
Click to expand...
if i remember about 10-15% of bolt thrust is absorbed by the case on the chamber walls, which is why if the chamber is wet you get over pressure etc.

id think not much difference on bolt thrust as the case is 2 parts but "connected" so "something grabs and something stretches"

(Edit: bolt thrust not pressure)
 
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Frank Green said:
With the above post....knowing what I know and what I've seen so far.

And I can totally see someone on here is going to want to pick a fight but I'm standing my ground....

I've instructed all the guys in the office and anyone here that talks to customers...

You want to run at crazy velocities and or pressures....and your going to order a barrel from us and you tell me that your building a 6.5 super duper magnum or a similar round that runs at 80k psi. I will not warranty the barrel for accuracy, for fouling and or for barrel life and I'll throw safety in there as well. Too many things beyond our control.

Last I heard the ammo that will be available to the military will not be available to the commercial market. Has that changed? I don't know at this time but I guarantee if that is the case.... you are going to get this or that shooter...that said well... if the military can get 3100fps with a 140gr bullet out of this or that case....I'll just keep loading the case up until I get to 3100fps and that person or persons will not have any real hard data to back up what the pressure he is running at with this or that powder charge. I guarantee I will get.... well I don't have hard bolt lift! Primers are not flat! I can just see it coming already.

For the ammunition pressure test barrels they also had to come up with a pressure sensor that can operate at even higher pressure levels. I think the standard sensors are rated for 87k.
Click to expand...


Barrels are ment to be replaced. I wild cat alot. 22 creed....6 prc...etc. My ideology is shoot what you want to the accuracy level you want. When it stops...order a barrel and screw it on...rinse repeat....its the hobby.
 
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When hybrid cases are available again for the fury ill order a reemer and a barrel for something weird and experiment. As long as you use a defiance action (120kpsi lugs) its a pretty safe thing.


As a side thought...I wouldnt use a Terminus....the 4 threads of engagment that they call sufficient on their barrel connection has never sat right with me at normal saami pressure...definitely not at 80kpsi
 
Pelphobos said:
When hybrid cases are available again for the fury ill order a reemer and a barrel for something weird and experiment. As long as you use a defiance action (120kpsi lugs) its a pretty safe thing.
Click to expand...
Nothing made of 416 would be my first choice when pushing the envelope.
 
Frank Green said:
Yes the barrels are consumables.

Some think they should last forever though! LOL!
Click to expand...
I never understood where that idea comes from. Military rebarrels even ARs on the regular, especially other weapons with high firing schedules. Maybe because most people’s introduction is low volume shooting and hunting that will be lucky to put 6,000 rds through a barrel in 60 years?
 
WindstormSCR said:
I never understood where that idea comes from. Military rebarrels even ARs on the regular, especially other weapons with high firing schedules. Maybe because most people’s introduction is low volume shooting and hunting that will be lucky to put 6,000 rds through a barrel in 60 years?
Click to expand...

Most hunting rifles never see 500 rounds. The people on this forum are not normal hunters. We really care about rifles, bullets and ballistics. We regularly shoot/test our equipment in hopes of squeezing every last bit of performance from them.

My dad's 30-06 probably never saw 300 shots.
 
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Yeah, I worked a load up for a couple of my dad’s rifles. I put more rounds down the barrels during dev than he did beforehand. He’s got a lifetime supply of handloads for all of them, and doesn't have 100 for any of them.

One of these days I’m going to inherit a safe full of 50 year old rifles that haven’t even been broken in yet...
 
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Pelphobos said:
Yea I would personally like everything be made from Inconel alloy 725....if wishes could be reality. Shit worked great on the outside of the space shuttle. We broke so much tooling on it though in our shops.
Click to expand...
725 actually isn’t great for actions as there are stronger cheaper materials..

Now for barrels…it’s the holy grail as it laughs at heat

That stuff work hardens in one rotation of the first pass lol
 
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brianf said:
725 actually isn’t great for actions as there are stronger cheaper materials..

Now for barrels…it’s the holy grail as it laughs at heat

That stuff work hardens in one rotation of the first pass lol
Click to expand...
Are you really claiming a nickel-based alloy is a great barrel material? What’s the iron and carbon content? How’s the wear resistance?

Something like Stellite would be much better, but it has embrittlement issues. It’s used in liners on some MG barrels for a reason. It’s still not a perfect material.

Do you produce barrels out of Inconel 725?
 
ormandj said:
Are you really claiming a nickel-based alloy is a great barrel material? What’s the iron and carbon content? How’s the wear resistance?

Something like Stellite would be much better, but it has embrittlement issues. It’s used in liners on some MG barrels for a reason. It’s still not a perfect material.

Do you produce barrels out of Inconel 725?
Click to expand...
Studies have shown that the main wear process of a barrel is the intense heat, not the actual bullet on the lands.

Satellite, incomel, and a few others are superior materials in that environment

It just so happens that the make up of those materials make them a bitch to work with lol

The military has done several tests as you can imagine and while the material and final product is superior the “juice wasn’t worth the squeeze” yet. There is one suck test from the 70’s which is a easy read with pics (we all like pics). You can find it on the web.

As far as I know there are no commercial barrels makers of those type of materials but the next step in barrel making is the ECM process. Which is already being used for pistol barrels.

I’ve spoken to people who know of one off custom satellite barrels, but noting concrete.

As for mfg, I’m in contact with 2 ECM mfgs and 2 internal barrel coating trials..eagerly awaiting results. But that’s neither here nor there.

Realistically I think as additive manufacturing becomes more mature and costs drop, barrels of special materials will be “3D printed” then touched up with existing equipment and processes.
 
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brianf said:
Studies have shown that the main wear process of a barrel is the intense heat, not the actual bullet on the lands.

Satellite, incomel, and a few others are superior materials in that environment

It just so happens that the make up of those materials make them a bitch to work with lol

The military has done several tests as you can imagine and while the material and final product is superior the “juice wasn’t worth the squeeze” yet. There is one suck test from the 70’s which is a easy read with pics (we all like pics). You can find it on the web.

As far as I know there are no commercial barrels makers of those type of materials but the next step in barrel making is the ECM process. Which is already being used for pistol barrels.

I’ve spoken to people who know of one off custom satellite barrels, but noting concrete.

As for mfg, I’m in contact with 2 ECM mfgs and 2 internal barrel coating trials..eagerly awaiting results. But that’s neither here nor there.

Realistically I think as additive manufacturing becomes more mature and costs drop, barrels of special materials will be “3D printed” then touched up with existing equipment and processes.
Click to expand...
If I could really get a wish and make it reality, i would like a light titanium barrel with a few mils of tungsten carbide on the inside. I would be happy. But ill just keep replacing barrels cause I burn em out and its ok.
 
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the best additive process to make a barrel would be using Selective Laser Melting methods (different from sintering, it creates an actual melt pool and grain) OR using 'cold spray' on a mandrel shaped like the desired rifling.
The second of the two is probably the more mature process, with GE currently using it to produce turbine blades for the 787
 
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WindstormSCR said:
the best additive process to make a barrel would be using Selective Laser Melting methods (different from sintering, it creates an actual melt pool and grain) OR using 'cold spray' on a mandrel shaped like the desired rifling.
The second of the two is probably the more mature process, with GE currently using it to produce turbine blades for the 787
Click to expand...
the company I’m talking to only uses GE equipment for their aerospace products.

They actually have transmission lines from the grid with conditioners because small fluctuations cause inconsistencies in the process. Those can be weak spots or voids etc.
 
Well boys...I broke down and ordered it. The idiot in me couldn't take it anymore. I ordered a 22-277 reamer. I was allowed to name it since no one had done it yet so I called it the 22 VENGEANCE as the first 80kpsi 22 deserved a fitting name since it will be taking vengeance on the barrel lands and rifling like they wronged its mother. I am pairing it with a rukus right bolt left eject SA (120kpsi lugs). Everything should be in by April/June. Ill make a seperate post for it when I get it together and start testing...assuming I can get my hands on the hybrid cases by then...If anyone finds some hybrid brass and is willing to share please let me know...I will try to use vv n165(coolest heat of explosion) first to maximize the already non-existent barrel life and start around 46 grains and use magnum primers with 80 grain berger hybrids. Im thinking 48-49 grains will be close to 80k but ill watch my primers closely each step and run some at 60F and some at 100F to be safe. Mag primers are supposed to flow/pierce around 80kpsi depending on type but I will take my sweet time and look for 10%-20% energy increase over my 22 creed and stop.
 
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Pelphobos said:
Well boys...I broke down and ordered it. The idiot in me couldn't take it anymore. I ordered a 22-277 reamer. I was allowed to name it since no one had done it yet so I called it the 22 VENGEANCE as the first 80kpsi 22 deserved a fitting name since it will be taking vengeance on the barrel lands and rifling like they wronged its mother. I am pairing it with a rukus right bolt left eject SA (120kpsi lugs). Everything should be in by April/June. Ill make a seperate post for it when I get it together and start testing...assuming I can get my hands on the hybrid cases by then...If anyone finds some hybrid brass and is willing to share please let me know...I will try to use vv n165(coolest heat of explosion) first to maximize the already non-existent barrel life and start around 46 grains and use magnum primers with 80 grain berger hybrids. Im thinking 48-49 grains will be close to 80k but ill watch my primers closely each step and run some at 60F and some at 100F to be safe. Mag primers are supposed to flow/pierce around 80kpsi depending on type but I will take my sweet time and look for 10%-20% energy increase over my 22 creed and stop.
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You won't be able to fit enough n165 in the case to get anywhere near 80kpsi.
 
i was fortunate enough to get one of the NGWS Sig Spears with can (1 of 50) that were released, nice shooter
 
z987k said:
You won't be able to fit enough n165 in the case to get anywhere near 80kpsi.
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I have blown primers in my 22 creedmoor being stupid with N165 so I think I can. We will see. 48 grains N165 will blow magnum LRP federal or winchester behind an 80 grain berger hybrid. 277 fury has ~15 more thousanths of case capacity as well.
 
Except you’re not going to blow a primer in the bimetal case.
 
Tokay444 said:
Except you’re not going to blow a primer in the bimetal case.
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Why not? 🤔 same primer. Should pierce at same point. It wont "blow" out but it will pop a hole where the firing pin weakened it. You will retain primer pocket retention though I think. I want to stay just under pierced primer territory. I have been using some posted peterson universal receiver data from unsafe 78kpsi-84kpsi 22 creedmoor loads and some pressure and velocity calculations to try and predict the 80-85kpsi range. I think I will end up where crazy people were running their 22 creedmoors. 3600-3700fps with 80 grain vlds...3300 with 90 grainers. I have reasonable expectations 🤔...if anything about this stupid 22 VENGEANCE build can be called reasonable...

www.petersoncartridge.com

22 Creedmoor Load Data

Since its’ inception, in 2007 by Hornady, the 6.5 Creedmoor has seen some pretty meteoric growth in popularity. That growth continues as of this writing, as the cartridge has now gone mainstream with hunters and shooters alike. As the popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor has increased, so has the...
www.petersoncartridge.com www.petersoncartridge.com

Screenshot_20230128_123853_Chrome.jpg
 
Because the case head isn’t going to expand, leading to primer pocket expansion.
 
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Tokay444 said:
Because the case head isn’t going to expand, leading to primer pocket expansion.
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So you think it wont peirce due to lack of radial strain due to stiff bimetal primer pocket walls....i didnt think about that....need to boot up my solid works and run a finite element analysis with 100% ridged primer walls...that would leave the primer with just lateral strain...intersting thought. You speaking from experience?

Just so we on same page. This is what i mean by pierced vs blown
Screenshot_20230128_125329_Chrome.jpg
 
Pelphobos said:
So you think it wont peirce due to lack of radial strain due to stiff bimetal primer pocket walls....i didnt think about that....need to boot up my solid works and run a finite element analysis with 100% ridged primer walls...that would leave the primer with just lateral strain...intersting thought. You speaking from experience?

Just so we on same page. This is what i mean by pierced vs blown
View attachment 8060090
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They run primers in the 80,000psi cases, don’t they?
 
Tokay444 said:
They run primers in the 80,000psi cases, don’t they?
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Since I picked up loaded bimetal fury ammo I intend to disect the 100 primers I am getting that sig is putting in them and see if the cup is different and if they pierce where my normal federal and winchester ones do. Its definitely a question I want to answer.
 
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Now I just have to wait for April, guys.
Left to right. 22 Creedmoor, 22 Vengeance, 6 PRC.
Necked her down in three steps with a .288 -> .271 -> .257 redding bushings. Landed perfectly at .0015 neck tension. 😈

.257 is only 1 thal under neck chamber dimention of .258(highlighted below)...yall think I should turn it? 🤔
It will be a little snug....

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20230130_131253.jpg
 
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Pelphobos said:
Since I picked up loaded bimetal fury ammo I intend to disect the 100 primers I am getting that sig is putting in them and see if the cup is different and if they pierce where my normal federal and winchester ones do. Its definitely a question I want to answer.
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Definitely let us know how it goes, I'd be eager to know the results of your testing
 
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amymorgan20 said:
Definitely let us know how it goes, I'd be eager to know the results of your testing
Click to expand...
Will do.
FYI. The fury case can hold 6 more grains of superformance than the 22 creed. 56 vs 50 grains. ~12% increase in capacity over 22 creedmoor. I used superformance as its a common spherical powder. I dont intend to use it for loading the cartridge.
 
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amymorgan20 said:
Definitely let us know how it goes, I'd be eager to know the results of your testing
Click to expand...

So havent peirced one yet but I took my dremel and calipers to one and it looks like sig used a normal large rifle primer to me in their hybrid 80kpsi case.

.027" cup thickness like all large rifle primers...not ferrous(not magnetic i.e. not steel).
Its not a winchester or federal I believe...i think its cci or sig's own make.

Its very small but I will try to use the pmi xray gun to get its alloy makeup later this week and get a hardness value if I can.

20230201_062958.jpg
Screenshot_20230201_063830_Chrome.jpg
 
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