Night Vision Laser/light combos: DBAL D2 + white light, or Kiji + laser + WL? Or 3EIR Vulcan?

gigabels · Jan 20, 2023

Most advice I've seen says go with the D2, the simpler setup, 3 different devices isn't worth it. But looking at other Steiner LAMs (OTAL, I2, A3) everyone warns about Steiner's terrible CS and QC. So wouldn't it be worth it to consider avoiding Steiner altogether? Why not, if the Kiji combo is a similar weight and cost?

And then I just found this 3EIR head that combines an IR laser and illuminator in one head. Add a white light and you only need two flashlight bodies to do all the work. The only thing holding me back is 3EIR being a new company and not well known. I don't want their Designate IR because of the reportedly weak mount. But this idea with 2 heads interests me, would like to hear your thoughts.

Inspired by this Hop video. One of his complaints about the triple setup is the mod button, but we can use the unity TAPS SYNC. Also neither the Kiji or 3EIR head have a focusable lens like the D2, but how important is this?

LawnMM · Jan 21, 2023

How about starting with what you plan on doing with the gun?

gigabels · Jan 21, 2023

LawnMM said:
How about starting with what you plan on doing with the gun?

Good idea, OK this would go on a 16" AR and I'd take it hog hunting, night shooting with friends, and someday to night fighting classes. Needless to say I'm new to NV.

LawnMM · Jan 21, 2023

I'm not a big hunter but there are plenty here who I believe will back me up when I say Thermal tends to rule the roost for hunting.

If you're going to build a dedicated night fighting gun, simplicity says get the DBAL D2 and a dedicated white light to pair it with.

There are other ways to do it and break up the costs over time but that's the easy button.

TxWelder35 · Jan 21, 2023

gigabels said:
Good idea, OK this would go on a 16" AR and I'd take it hog hunting, night shooting with friends, and someday to night fighting classes. Needless to say I'm new to NV.

I’ve got a 16” set up with a D2. It’s about the best bang for your buck you are going to get with a illum/laser package. If you are using NV idk why everyone puts a white light on the gun, I just keep a flashlight on me somewhere if im going to go white light, not sure in what context you would be using white light to shoot if you have nv.

One issue I ran into with a using illum/laser combo was all the gas out front of the gun completely washed out my sight picture with the illum on. Couldn’t see shit after the first shot. I don’t use illum for taking shot now.

I moved to an 11.5 gun with an OTAL (laser only) and nothing else on the gun. I keep a vampire in my pocket for white light/IR illum for looking around.

Not sure what your financial situation looks like but I’d also consider getting some type of thermal. That’s what I’m saving for next. No NV is going to compare to thermal in being able to detect critters running around. I’d want a hand held or helmet mounted scanner for Looking around.

gigabels · Jan 21, 2023

LawnMM said:
I'm not a big hunter but there are plenty here who I believe will back me up when I say Thermal tends to rule the roost for hunting.

If you're going to build a dedicated night fighting gun, simplicity says get the DBAL D2 and a dedicated white light to pair it with.

There are other ways to do it and break up the costs over time but that's the easy button.

You're right about that. I have a nox18 and may get a longer range thermal unit. I figured this NV setup could double as a loaner to a friend who doesn't have either. Anyone with thermal could call out targets to him.

Simple makes sense... I just hope I don't have to deal with the warranty

LawnMM · Jan 21, 2023

gigabels said:
You're right about that. I have a nox18 and may get a longer range thermal unit. I figured this NV setup could double as a loaner to a friend who doesn't have either. Anyone with thermal could call out targets to him.

Simple makes sense... I just hope I don't have to deal with the warranty

I don't know where you're hearing the stories, I had a warranty issue with a DBAL i2 (my fault) and they handled it in about a week and a half

No drama

Namekagon · Jan 21, 2023

I use an OTAL and combine it with whatever IR illuminator fits the task best. If I want long range for hunting and don’t need white light, I put my Luna on the gun. I always intended to get a surefire scout vampire for a night fighting role, but they are darn pricey. Upside is you can link them to the otal with a TAPS because surefire is the standard for tail caps.

Recently I just discovered that Inforce offers a 700 lumen white/IR combo light for $140. Bought one and got it just the other day. While you can’t use pressure switches with it, I haven’t seen a vis/ir combo light for anywhere close to that price. The IR beam is the opposite of the Luna, it’s pure flood. But that’s not a bad thing to me for CQB distance stuff.

My point is, the upside to getting just a LAM is that you can tailor your illuminator to the task.

gigabels · Jan 21, 2023

TxWelder35 said:
I’ve got a 16” set up with a D2. It’s about the best bang for your buck you are going to get with a illum/laser package. If you are using NV idk why everyone puts a white light on the gun, I just keep a flashlight on me somewhere if im going to go white light, not sure in what context you would be using white light to shoot if you have nv.

One issue I ran into with a using illum/laser combo was all the gas out front of the gun completely washed out my sight picture with the illum on. Couldn’t see shit after the first shot. I don’t use illum for taking shot now.

I moved to an 11.5 gun with an OTAL (laser only) and nothing else on the gun. I keep a vampire in my pocket for white light/IR illum for looking around.

Not sure what your financial situation looks like but I’d also consider getting some type of thermal. That’s what I’m saving for next. No NV is going to compare to thermal in being able to detect critters running around. I’d want a hand held or helmet mounted scanner for Looking around.

White light makes sense to me as a backup in case something else fails.

And I had that same issue when I shot my first hogs using a weapon mounted green light. But have you tried it with a can? I feel like I should know this already but I think it might help attenuate all that gas in front.

I do have a nox I could mount on the head or the weapon I really just thought thus 16" NV-based gun could serve as a loaner when it comes to hunting.

TxWelder35 · Jan 21, 2023

gigabels said:
White light makes sense to me as a backup in case something else fails.

And I had that same issue when I shot my first hogs using a weapon mounted green light. But have you tried it with a can? I feel like I should know this already but I think it might help attenuate all that gas in front.

I do have a nox I could mount on the head or the weapon I really just thought thus 16" NV-based gun could serve as a loaner when it comes to hunting.

Yes I only shoot suppressed. Haven’t tried it without a can.

gigabels · Jan 21, 2023

LawnMM said:
I don't know where you're hearing the stories, I had a warranty issue with a DBAL i2 (my fault) and they handled it in about a week and a half

No drama

I've heard stories from other forums and Hop. But that's reassuring.

TxWelder35 said:
Yes I only shoot suppressed. Haven’t tried it without a can.

It might depend on the can too. Oherwise, might as well just focus on passive aiming then eh?

ToKeepAndBear · Jan 21, 2023

I really like my 3 degree Kijis combined with a Steiner CQBL and the Echo Arms mount. I actually prefer them over my MAWL C1+ as they are about half the cost, brighter illumination, and a little more versatile since I can operate the illuminator without the laser. A Modlite button will activate both simultaneously if desired. If I want all three (WL/illuminator/laser), just unscrew the Kiji and screw on a Vampire head.

I also like a 3 degree Kiji on my helmet. With the diffuser on, it is awesome for scanning with the 1531s.

WhereNow&How · Jan 21, 2023

TxWelder35 said:
If you are using NV idk why everyone puts a white light on the gun, I just keep a flashlight on me somewhere if im going to go white light, not sure in what context you would be using white light to shoot if you have nv.

Given that the OP said he wanted his rifle set up for "night fighting", a very strong white light would be extremely appropriate.

A very strong white light (think Modlight OKW head at 69,000 Candela) is appropriate on a "night fighting" rifle for a lot of reasons. The most important reason (that is very time sensitive) is the fact that the most likely common threat from "Joe Shit The Bad Man Thug" is his white light on the end of his gun.

So when "Joe Shit The Bad Man Thug" lights up a person under Night Vision and effectively renders the NV unusable, you have to immediately be able to raise your head up, look under your NODS and hit one button that puts stronger white light (win the photonics war) on "Joe Shit" and preferably superimpose a strong green or red laser dot on him at the same time and do yo thang.

WhereNow&How · Jan 21, 2023

gigabels said:
White light makes sense to me as a backup in case something else fails.

Exactly.

A "night fighting" rifle is not complete without a solid powerful white light weapons light.

Even for hog hunting when shit gets stoopid and they at your feet.

LawnMM · Jan 21, 2023

gigabels said:
I've heard stories from other forums and Hop. But that's reassuring.

It might depend on the can too. Oherwise, might as well just focus on passive aiming then eh?

I don't think I'd rely on a kid from YouTube as your source for what's what

Gas is something you have to live with using a firearm. This is why Guntoobers are kinda dumb sometimes.

You're talking about a fighting gun. If you're standing in one place long enough for muzzle gas to become an issue you're probably already dead.

In a hunting context, how many shots do you think you're going to get off before the animals unass the area? You either get em with the first couple rounds or they're gone.

If you're having issues with your IR hitting gas on a square range where you happen to be "training" guess what? Time to train yourself to shoot on the move.

Stationary targets don't survive long.

gigabels · Jan 21, 2023

LawnMM said:
I don't think I'd rely on a kid from YouTube as your source for what's what

Gas is something you have to live with using a firearm. This is why Guntoobers are kinda dumb sometimes.

You're talking about a fighting gun. If you're standing in one place long enough for muzzle gas to become an issue you're probably already dead.

In a hunting context, how many shots do you think you're going to get off before the animals unass the area? You either get em with the first couple rounds or they're gone.

If you're having issues with your IR hitting gas on a square range where you happen to be "training" guess what? Time to train yourself to shoot on the move.

Stationary targets don't survive long.

Well for hogs you often have enough time to get several shots in. But that just reiterates why a thermal sight would be best for this.

I can think of a few scenarios where you want to shoot and stay still, with either IR or white light. Home defense holed up behind your bed (cover) in your bedroom with your family. In war, an ambush from behind cover. Really any kind of situation in the dark where you have multiple targets or hard to reach targets and you have cover. Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong or full of it.

TxWelder35 · Jan 21, 2023

LawnMM said:
I don't think I'd rely on a kid from YouTube as your source for what's what

Gas is something you have to live with using a firearm. This is why Guntoobers are kinda dumb sometimes.

You're talking about a fighting gun. If you're standing in one place long enough for muzzle gas to become an issue you're probably already dead.

In a hunting context, how many shots do you think you're going to get off before the animals unass the area? You either get em with the first couple rounds or they're gone.

If you're having issues with your IR hitting gas on a square range where you happen to be "training" guess what? Time to train yourself to shoot on the move.

Stationary targets don't survive long.

Got a mag and a half in on a sounder last time I was out, all in the same spot.

TxWelder35 · Jan 21, 2023

WhereNow&How said:
Given that the OP said he wanted his rifle set up for "night fighting", a very strong white light would be extremely appropriate.

A very strong white light (think Modlight OKW head at 69,000 Candela) is appropriate on a "night fighting" rifle for a lot of reasons. The most important reason (that is very time sensitive) is the fact that the most likely common threat from "Joe Shit The Bad Man Thug" is his white light on the end of his gun.

So when "Joe Shit The Bad Man Thug" lights up a person under Night Vision and effectively renders the NV unusable, you have to immediately be able to raise your head up, look under your NODS and hit one button that puts stronger white light (win the photonics war) on "Joe Shit" and preferably superimpose a strong green or red laser dot on him at the same time and do yo thang.

Very good point.

aslrookie · Jan 21, 2023

The D2 is the easy button. I had a A3 and the QD lever popped open during a local tactical games skirmish. I’m not sure if the D2 mount is any better, but I would switch the mount for a larue if it’s the same as the A3.

Other than that, no issues with the unit. The D2 is chunky and the heavier side of laser units. That being said, I’ll probably get a D2 for my 20” 6.5cm gasser because it’s already heavy anyway. What’s another 14oz? Lol

WindstormSCR · Jan 21, 2023

I've been doing similar research recently, and while there's a bunch of options, for me its come down to three:
1) DBAL-A3
2) MAWL
3) RAID-XE
As you can tell cost isn't my issue, but ergonomics very much is. I don't have a huge amount of rail space to work with (20" MDRX bullpup with integrated bipod handguard), and will be pairing the selected one with a Surefire M600U.
Currently even though the illuminator performance is weaker, I'm leaning towards the DBAL-A3 on account of the ability to run it off a TAPS Sync and actually get the visible override to do illuminator and vis laser simultaneously.

The Raid-XE seems excellent, but has the problem of the proprietary tape switch.

I'm in a similar boat to many others here, guns are mostly range toys, but I'm of the opinion having a rifle set up for modern combat is as critical now as it was when the modern combat rifle was a musket. I'm strictly NV right now, still doing research on how best to integrate thermal

Attached a file to illustrate what I mean about the lack of good rail space.

gigabels · Jan 22, 2023

@WindstormSCR personally I don't really want to spend more than 2k on a laser. But if money is no object the MAWL or Raid sound like the way to go. Is the proprietary tape switch that much of a problem? And with the MAWL would it not fit at all, or are you just averse to putting the white light on the left side?

And then there's the the CTF-2 which would allow you to drop the WL you have now

I impulse bought an A3 on a discount and got the corresponding taps Sync but haven't used it yet, not sure yet if it's worth the low IR performance.

Any reason you pick the MDRX as your designated "modern combat rifle"? Like if cost isn't an issue why not get a standard AR for nite fighting and leave the MDRX as a day rifle, maybe with a lower capability at night, such as with the A3.

WindstormSCR · Jan 22, 2023

gigabels said:
Any reason you pick the MDRX as your designated "modern combat rifle"?

Its my gun of choice for 2gun, so I have the most familiarity with it in terms of ability to manipulate it without thinking about it and use it in unusual positions. The .308 and 6.5CM cartridge options (Mostly the .308) also provide a wide range of performance options, from cycling subsonic rounds to AP to excellent long range capability. Plus it has a dedicated kit that I’m familiar with from 2gun including a proper plate carrier.

gigabels said:
Is the proprietary tape switch that much of a problem?

Yes only because it has to sit too high up to be really usable, and flipping it would block the bipod legs. I’ll pull it out and take some pics today, but C-clamping isn’t really as viable for me because I have long ass gorilla arms and thus can’t really lock the elbow like is taught for that, so I end up preferring the forward set AFG, and using my thumb on the side for the tape switch

Default.mp3 · Jan 22, 2023

Why would the proprietary switch be an issue if you can fit a TAPS Sync? My triple button dual lead Xe tapeswitch is shorter in both length and height than my TAPS Sync.

The RAID-Xe also has vis override available.

WhereNow&How · Jan 22, 2023

Default.mp3 said:
The RAID-Xe also has vis override available.

Do you have the Vis Overide slaved to a White Light where you hit one button and both come on instantly.

If you don't, is it possible to set it up that away.

Default.mp3 · Jan 22, 2023

WhereNow&How said:
Do you have the Vis Overide slaved to a White Light where you hit one button and both come on instantly.

If you don't, is it possible to set it up that away.

I'm not 100% certain, but I would assume you could program the switch that way (I am still waiting for my pre-order RAID Xe to ship). Button 1 on the triple button dual lead is always going to control the light (no disabling of that functionality is my understanding), and I would assume that you could program it also fire the visible laser using the same button at the same time (or an IR pointer and/or illuminator, if you wanted, for whatever wacky reason); I would be shocked if you couldn't, but... Wilcox does funny things, I guess. However, the wording in the manual suggests that it would be totally possible (see page 17 and page 37 of the manual for further details: https://wilcoxind.com/backend/wp-co.../Wilcox-RAID-Xe-Operator-Manual_g12-14-18.pdf).

WindstormSCR · Jan 22, 2023

Default.mp3 said:
Why would the proprietary switch be an issue if you can fit a TAPS Sync? My triple button dual lead Xe tapeswitch is shorter in both length and height than my TAPS Sync.

The RAID-Xe also has vis override available.

Because it can only apparently be mounted on a rail section, and off to one side above or below that rail section. I need to be able to mount it in-line with M=lok slots as a TAPS or the magpul surefire tape switch retainer allow.

if that is not correct and there are other mounting solutions available I may have missed, or it works with that surefire switch retainer, please let me know as I would love to be incorrect on this one.

Default.mp3 · Jan 22, 2023

WindstormSCR said:
Because it can only apparently be mounted on a rail section, and off to one side above or below that rail section. I need to be able to mount it in-line with M=lok slots as a TAPS or the magpul surefire tape switch retainer allow.

if that is not correct and there are other mounting solutions available I may have missed, or it works with that surefire switch retainer, please let me know as I would love to be incorrect on this one.

You can definitely mount it without having to use their offset 1913 mount. It won't be as clean, but the tape switch comes with both adhesive hook & loop and two little zip ties to facilitate this.

You can see a picture of the tape switch without the backing plate and offset 1913 mount here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...o-switch-compatibility.7128396/#post-10288021

WindstormSCR · Jan 22, 2023

Default.mp3 said:
You can definitely mount it without having to use their offset 1913 mount. It won't be as clean, but the tape switch comes with both adhesive hook & loop and two little zip ties to facilitate this.

You can see a picture of the tape switch without the backing plate and offset 1913 mount here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...o-switch-compatibility.7128396/#post-10288021

hmmm, might be able to modify something then.

here's the promised pictures of why the MDRX with the integrated bipod handguard can be.... difficult when it comes to full NV setups

WhereNow&How · Apr 2, 2023

TxWelder35 said:
Got a mag and a half in on a sounder last time I was out, all in the same spot.

Poor hogs, like takin candy from a baby.

Next time, give em a chance. Tie one of your hands behind your back.

TxWelder35 · Apr 2, 2023

WhereNow&How said:
Poor hogs, like takin candy from a baby.

Next time, give em a chance. Tie one of your hands behind your back.

Next time I got a ol Italian carcano with a bayonet I want to poke one with

you have any nv mounts for late 1800s Italian military rifles?

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