Hunting and understanding bullets reading?

Rio Precision Gunwerks said:

Moose and buffalo, definitely want to step up a bit (you can obviously kill both with a 6.5, but no need to push it). If you already have a 300wm, use it. If not, I'd personally look towards the 300 prc.

Run Berger, Hornady, or any other reputable bullet manufacturer. Can use their target bullets to as well when you're talking Berger and Hornady. They will be fine.

Focus more on marksmanship. If you shoot something in the heart or head, it's going to die regardless (obviously the bullet needs to penetrate whatever barrier is between the bullet and the heart or head. But if you're running a .300 something and the velocity is high enough, most any bullet is going to get the job done).

Shameless plug: if you don't have a rifle already, we have TL3's, origins, a couple ruckus, a couple nucleus, and I believe some falkor actions on hand. Along with proof carbon barrels. Can get you a build done asap in the $3500-$5k area depending on stock choice and such.


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Rio Precision Gunwerks said:

Unfortunately, you’ll find that many, many things in this industry are very small differences.

Check out the Berger website and their articles. You’ll get some better idea.

You’ll also find very contradictory information on hunting bullets. What one person or company thinks is important or matters is at odds with another. Hence the generalization from most that have a decent understanding.

And it will become more specific as to the application more so than generalized “hunting” bullets.

I apologize if this seems like a misdirection, but I’m sure you’re already finding it’s not as black and white as many of us think it should be.

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Crews said:

I think Hornady ELD-M / ELD-X factory box ammo is the best balance of ballistic + terminal performance, and cost for almost any modern rifle. Get some of that, a rifle that doesn’t have heavy recoil, and focus on learning how to put the bullet where it needs to go.

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Aftermath said:

What is average body weight of the game animal?
Figure an average max range you would ethically take a shot at said game animal.
Figure velocity upon impact is 2000 fps. This number is a bit arbitrary but will suffice and is nice to do the arithmetic with.
What is foot pounds of energy needed to match or exceed the body weight of said game animal at said average max range at 2000 fps?
What weight of bullet will provide that?
Choose any of the big name bullets designed for hunting in that weight range.
The big name cartridge manufacturers are going to plan in excess for max range, body weight and likely plan on less velocity...all in the name of making sure they are providing for the least common denominator sort of thing.

One might also consider the TKO of the components. IMHO, it is useful as a way to compare but, again, use the velocity at impact instead of at the muzzle.

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Aftermath said:

The math is simple and not hard to find if you do a rudimentary search.

Poorly worded question but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. "Too much velocity"...if this is the scneario, the bullet will effectively disintegrate upon initial impact and not penetrate very deep.

Think about that...what does YOUR heart weigh? 1 pound? Do you think you would be injured much from an impact with 1 foot pound of energy?

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HaydenLane said:

The most important thing is to ignore anyone that mentions energy as a metric to measure killing ability.

If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole google “Martin Fackler ballistics.” You probably won’t find much helpful info especially as it pertains directly to modern bullets, but you will find out how or why things die.

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Aftermath said:

It appears you are unwilling or unable to do your own research. It also appears that you do not have an understanding of fairly basic physics and unable to formulate the question for the answer you seek. I suggest you utilize the research already performed FOR you by others and just chalk up the results as something on the order of magical.

Realize that almost all things die when the perforation results in a loss of blood greater than the organisms capacity to replace it (or distribute it) and the resulting loss of blood pressure.

Or, you could use that GI Bill and get some education.

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Newbie2020 said:

Good read

So…

My feeble take on the reading:

Speed kills

That explains why there’s so little visible or measurable difference between the ELD-M and ELD-X and the Berger bullets for hunting vs target: speed and tumbling due to destabilization after impact seems to be the primary goal for hunting.

The older slower cartridges needed a huge soft point to mushroom more extremely to create a more devastating wound channel because they lacked sufficient speed to initiate the tumbling due to destabilization.

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Newbie2020 said:

I think he dispels the benefit of high velocity and the temporary wound channel causing death, but not the value of hydrostatic shock causing interruption of CNS resulting in the DRT drop all hunters crave.

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DJL2 said:

The reason you're only going to get generalized answers is until you start talking about a specific bullet and a specific animal at a specific impact velocity, it's really impossible to cover the full spectrum of ideas succinctly. I'm going to throw out some general concepts (they're all grounded in mechanical engineering). Some of them might spark discourse or disagreement.

- Bullets destroy tissue via energy transfer and physically cutting/crushing tissue. Of these, effective wounding depends heavily on energy transfer and/or fragmentation to ensure wide wounding.

- A simple Newtonian understanding suffices here - the target decelerates the bullet rapidly and the "equal and opposite" force becomes the mechanism through which the bullet transfers energy to create wounds.

- The above deceleration can be thought of as drag, it's just target drag instead of air drag. Cross sectional area, form factor, and velocity (squared!) are all factors. Bullets are interesting because all those factors change in relation to each other upon impact.

- The big take away is that the square of the velocity affects drag - that's affecting the stress experienced by the bullet and thus how it deforms (and sheds weight or fragments). That affects how effectively the bullet decelerates. That determines energy transfer (Impulse).

- The more force applied or the shorter the time period, the higher the impulse. The higher the impulse, the greater the stress to the tissue and the greater the wounding. Think about being pushed versus being punched - same force, different impulse.

- In light of the above, effective energy transfer (high impulse) is more important than how much is available. The bullet must transfer enough energy into the tissue to overcome its elasticity (search: elastic deformation, stress v. strain curve).

- Bullets that shed weight or fragment are much less dependent on both energy and velocity because the movement of the fragments away from the bullet's path creates additional wounding.

I've gotta go grab dinner for the fam, but you've got some basic concepts there to explore. The bottom line is you need to match the bullet, the animal, and the impact velocity for best results.

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• Temporary wound cavity: The projectile's shock wave violently forces target material outward from the projectile path, creating a temporary cavity. The temporary cavity may be quite large, and its size is directly related to impact velocity.
• Permanent wound track: After a fraction of a second, the temporary cavity collapses, leaving a permanent wound track. This is the permanent deformation or destruction produced by the projectile as it plows through the target. The size of the permanent wound track is related to the bullet diameter and weight.

DJL2 said:

The ELD-M and ELD-X are both good designs, but they are bullet models, not a specific bullet. Using a 73 grain ELD-M versus a 208 grain ELD-M is going to get you different performance. The ELD-M is a soft bullet that fragments reliably and tends to do so to very low velocity (1400 fps or so) when matched appropriately to game. The ELD-X is a tougher bullet that also tends to shed weight reliably, but has a higher velocity threshold for doing so. Both will do just fine for Elk or Deer, as will the Sierra TMK. You could shoot a SST, a Partition, a Speer BTSP, and others and get equally good results if you are mindful of impact velocity.

Jacket construction, ogive shape, HP diameter (meplat), whether the bullet is bonded/monolithic are all factors. They determine if the bullet fragments reliably, or looks pretty when it takes a good chunk of its energy uselesssly out the other side of the hide. ;-) Thicker jackets, bonding make tougher bullets. Tougher bullets shed less weight and, therefor, need more velocity. Monos or very tough bullets that shed (almost) no weight need the most velocity to create wide wounds, but tend to penetrate well.

Ballistic gel is just fine apart from having almost no resemblance at all to the thoracic cavity of an animal ;-). It does lend itself to comparing projectiles to one another though. It’s pretty easy to see the concepts discussed demonstrated in gel shots as long as you don’t get distracted by high speed footage of temp cavities (which some seem to really dig). On temp cavity, I’ll say two things:
1. A lot of people don’t understand what “temporary” means.
2. A lot of people would be better served placing a wide, fast bleeding wound into the vitals and not worrying about what the temporary cavity MIGHT do for them.

Look up a stress vs. strain curve if you haven’t. Familiarize with the concept of elastic deformation. Congratulations, you now understand the concept of the temporary wound cavity - and that it is not a failure mode. ;-) Following elastic deformation is plastic deformation and then shear/compressive failure. Congrats, you now understand the permanent wound cavity. Handguns and rifles are not even in the same league for wounding performance. Rifles have a massive advantage owing to typically possessing vastly more energy and using it vastly more efficiently. That being said, handguns of comparable energy levels produce similar wound channels.

ETA, Rules:
1. Pick a cartridge and a rifle appropriate to the game hunted
2. Practice with that rifle until you can shoot it well to any distance you intend to hunt
3. Practice doing the above under “field conditions”
4. Choose a bullet that’s light, tough, and fast or a bullet that’s heavy, soft, and moderately speedy
5. Be mindful of conditions, don’t shoot outside your skill, keep impact velocity above bullet threshold.

The impact velocity threshold will change based on the specific bullet and the game hunted.

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DJL2 said:

Number 1 is HOTLY debated. In part it’s because different shooters hunt differently. Are you the sort of guy that might get only one shot at an animal so you’re going to attempt that Texas Heart Shot from 400 yds? Do you brush hunt where even modest cartridges can produce high velocity impacts (over 2600 fps)? Do you hunt at long range where impact velocity is low and you need maximum forgiveness from bullet design? Do you pass on the quartering away shot and wait for something better? Do you aim for the lungs or to break the shoulders?The point here is that how you answer these questions changes what you need the bullet to do. Two guys can shoot the same bullet and end up with vastly different results.

Plenty of shooters out there have a really hard time admitting when they missed or made a bad shot. If a hunter is in the woods or hills with a weapon vastly more capable than a bow and not getting it done, the results are firstly the fault of the shooter. That the .30-06 will take anything in North America cleanly is a matter of historical record. Whether a given hunter can do so is another matter entirely.

Using the -06 as an example, a 130 or a 150 TTSX driven hard is a good example of light and tough driven fast. A 165 SST is tough-ish, light enough to be generally useful and tends to shed weight well. A 175 TMK or 178 ELD-M is something of a middle weight, soft enough and slow enough out of the -06 to be generally useful as well. You could opt for a 195 TMK or 208 ELD-M as a general purpose choice (heavy and soft) on larger game weights. Violent expansion, but enough mass and a modest muzzle velocity for use at close range.

Impact velocity threshold comes down to a question: do you want the best wounding a well designed bullet and rifle can deliver or will you settle for recreating the performance of a broad head, but at more flexible ranges and angles? A bullet can trade its mass and its velocity to create wounding. Bullets that don’t trade any of their mass rely a lot more heavily on their velocity. Some general rules, assuming you’re in the ball park of “normal” for cartridge selection.
1. Cup and core bullets with thin jackets and lacking core bonding tend to ride the struggle bus over 2900 fps.
2. The above might be considered “excessive” at impacts over 2700 fps.
3. A properly massed cup and core bullet will do solid work from 2400-2700 fps.
4. A properly massed, soft cup and core bullet will do good work down to 2200 fps, and adequate to 1800-2000 fps.
5. A properly massed, fragmentary cup and core bullet will do good work down to 1800 fps, and adequate below that depending on the design.
6. Copper monos or very tough jacketed and bonded bullets can endure above 2900 fps reliably, but wounding may be considered excessive.
7. The above, properly massed, will perform very well between 2600-2900 fps.
8. Their performance will taper significantly as velocity drops, the cutoff for good work being 2400 fps.
9. The cutoff for adequate will vary, ball park may be 2200 fps or so.

If you’re a good shot, almost anything will work. If you’re a bad shot, almost nothing can compensate for it. However, shit happens in the field and wounding effectively matters, especially if you don’t like slow kills and tracking animals. Your shot selection will impact bullet performance. Americans tend to err vastly on the side of penetration at the expense of wounding (opinion).

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30338 said:

30-06 elk at 400 yards with 155 scenar. 18" barrel.


6.5x47 elk at 400 yards with 140 vld. 18" barrel.


Just a couple examples. This stuff is way over thoug

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