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Rifle Scopes What the pros use confusion

Can only speak for my side of the pond, but two years ago nobody used Leupolds or Zeiss. Several do now, but not one of them paid for their scopes. That being said, it gave me a chance to look through both and they are both very nice. If not for the sponsorships, the Zeiss would not even be on my radar. One of our top shooters has in a few years gone from Kahles to ZCO and now Leupold. I honestly doubt any of the three will cost him points over the other, it sure does not seem like it. Have not asked him about it though.

Ya, it won't cost them any points. Leupold and Vortex will be the companies that can and will give out free optics. Much more so than most any other company. And if they hindered the performance, shooters still wouldn't use them if they couldn't win with them.
 
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"I can answer one of the questions in here not related to the list of popular gear. The desire was expressed that the mods would delete this thread. That will not happen. The most that might ever happen is that it gets locked and then floats downstream. But it is here forever and ever. Check out the section of Lowlight Directives.

There was another person who wanted his account deleted and all of his reponses erased. It will not be done. The big reason is that it is a record of a member ID. They do not want a person coming back in different IDs. The best solution offered by Lowlight is log out and don't come back. This is a specific and tight little community but none of us has to be here. Also, I would say, before a person logs out and doesn't come back, change the profile settings to not get email updates. Otherwise, a guy will be reminded of the halcyon days he now misses.

IOW, if you crap the bed, you have to lie in it or clean it, yourself.".......



This is Lowlight's "house" and I respect that. It's his right to run it his way, no problem.

Since the above comment was brought up, and in light of how this discussion went, I'll mention a few thoughts VERY RESPECTFULLY as something to chew on.


We have a photography blog/forum, it's also a tight knit group, way smaller than here, and we think it runs pretty smooth.


We've incorporated the extension of the "ignore" button where if U start a conversation, the folks on your ingore list are locked out from the start, no three day rants resulting in wasted energy, trolls looking to swat someone down, don't get to fuck w/somebody after the first time.

The end result which doesn't happen often these days is that if you're enough of an asshole/on enough ignore lists, U freeze yourself out.
If U get silly w/putting everybody on your ignore list, U freeze yourself out.


We had folks complain about this system at first saying it prevents free exchange, but it does quite the opposite, it eliminates endless unpleasantness that can go on for days, B4 it starts.


It SHUTS UP TROLLS.


If one of U is on somebodies "ignore" list, then the two of U can participate in a thread started by somebody else, but U can't respond directly to each other.

Moderators on other venues suggest U stay away from folks U don't like, we don't give U a choice. Folks have accepted this and love the "peace and quiet" to discuss ideas and issues in a pleasant atmosphere.

Folks who insist on fucking w/somebody indirectly usually get put on more "ignore" lists as a result Bcuz folks will no longer tolerate being that petty.


MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's helpful to the "laid back"/quiet folks who're new to a discipline and want to try to "jump in" w/o getting swatted down by whoever and again, it eliminates a LOT of NEEDLESS DAY LONG BS.

Like here, we don't ask anybody to come, and we think "our place" is turning into a very welcome place where the trolls who show up get tired of not being able to fuck w/anybody, and get rid of themselves.
 
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I like to try different gear from other shooters at the competitions to see what works and what doesn't. Trying other gear turned me on the schmedium bag, accutac bipod, Kestrel 4dof. Eventually I'll invest in a good bino instead of a spotting scope after spotting with them.

Let me know that I don't like most chassis without having to buy one. Popular scopes I've seen in local PRS competitions:
Leupold MK5, Vortex Razor, Viper Gen II, Athlon, Arken, ZCO, Khales
 
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"I can answer one of the questions in here not related to the list of popular gear. The desire was expressed that the mods would delete this thread. That will not happen. The most that might ever happen is that it gets locked and then floats downstream. But it is here forever and ever. Check out the section of Lowlight Directives.

There was another person who wanted his account deleted and all of his reponses erased. It will not be done. The big reason is that it is a record of a member ID. They do not want a person coming back in different IDs. The best solution offered by Lowlight is log out and don't come back. This is a specific and tight little community but none of us has to be here. Also, I would say, before a person logs out and doesn't come back, change the profile settings to not get email updates. Otherwise, a guy will be reminded of the halcyon days he now misses.

IOW, if you crap the bed, you have to lie in it or clean it, yourself.".......



This is Lowlight's "house" and I respect that. It's his right to run it his way, no problem.

Since the above comment was brought up, and in light of how this discussion went, I'll mention a few thoughts VERY RESPECTFULLY as something to chew on.


We have a photography blog/forum, it's also a tight knit group, way smaller than here, and we think it runs pretty smooth.


We've incorporated the extension of the "ignore" button where if U start a conversation, the folks on your ingore list are locked out from the start, no three day rants resulting in wasted energy, trolls looking to swat someone down, don't get to fuck w/somebody after the first time.

The end result which doesn't happen often these days is that if you're enough of an asshole/on enough ignore lists, U freeze yourself out.
If U get silly w/putting everybody on your ignore list, U freeze yourself out.


We had folks complain about this system at first saying it prevents free exchange, but it does quite the opposite, it eliminates endless unpleasantness that can go on for days, B4 it starts.


It SHUTS UP TROLLS.


If one of U is on somebodies "ignore" list, then the two of U can participate in a thread started by somebody else, but U can't respond directly to each other.

Moderators on other venues suggest U stay away from folks U don't like, we don't give U a choice. Folks have accepted this and love the "peace and quiet" to discuss ideas and issues in a pleasant atmosphere.

Folks who insist on fucking w/somebody indirectly usually get put on more "ignore" lists as a result Bcuz folks will no longer tolerate being that petty.


MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's helpful to the "laid back"/quiet folks who're new to a discipline and want to try to "jump in" w/o getting swatted down by whoever and again, it eliminates a LOT of NEEDLESS DAY LONG BS.

Like here, we don't ask anybody to come, and we think "our place" is turning into a very welcome place where the trolls who show up get tired of not being able to fuck w/anybody, and get rid of themselves.
 
We like it a lot too!!! It works great 4 us, and it's GETTING BETTER.

DUMB and DUMBER, and boring, is the guy who shows up for the 10th time (sometimes in the same discussion) to troll/insult/disrespect just for the sake of stopping a discussion in it's tracks, to tell a new participant whose been lurking for awhile just how stupid his first question was, and to use these venues to try to make everyone as miserable as possible.

Everybody knows that drill, it was right here in this thread.

Smart/dumb/retarded/inspired/foolish, take UR pic, it's absolutely fine w/me, but whatever U think of it. we sprayed some "roach spray" and got rid of most of the "roaches", or "trolls" or "assholes" or whatever U want to call 'em and as much as folks bitched and moaned about this when we started it, NOW they wouldn't have it any other way.

It's pleasant and relaxing on our venue; a truth that is its own defense.

Again, everybody is entitled to run their own "house" as they see fit. Anybody is entitled to call this either something to consider or dumb.

The one thing that it does do, is that it works.
 
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I gave Lowlight and this forum it's due respect 3 times in this comment. You're defending this site, when I never knocked it, here or anywhere else.

That makes U laugh, go ahead and laugh.

I not knocking "Sniper's Hide" or I woun't be here; I would be the first to congratulate "Sniper's Hide" on a wealth of information I've gotten, and I'll be the first to say it if I haven't said that B4.

I talked/referenced a common problem on forums not just here, it's there if you look.

Negatve on your suggestion, we're happy w/the way it its.



If I was only this forum for FIVE MINUTES I'd feel like any moderator would suggest, is that I get respect (as long as I give it out).

This exchange bet. me and you is the point isn't it, the first thing out of my mouth "in big bold" was "VERY RESPECTFULLY", so how long I been on here doesn't have anything to do with. I "lurked" about 3 years, then "jumped in" about a year ago.

So if it's "you ain't been here long so STFU, that's falling on deaf ears.

Say it again, "Sniper's Hide" has my GREATEST RESPECT, me bringing up how we do it on another venue doesn't change that.

I made a suggestion to help, not knock this venue if it's in U to see it that way.
 
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@Convex how did we on this site survive for over 20 years before you arrived? LOL Maybe you and Ronws can start a long range section on your photography forum. ;)
Great, now, I have to send out nudes, again. Trust me, no one wants that.
 
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I gave Lowlight and this forum it's due respect 3 times in this comment. You're defending this site, when I never knocked it, here or anywhere else.

That makes U laugh, go ahead and laugh.

I not knocking "Sniper's Hide" or I woun't be here; I would be the first to congratulate "Sniper's Hide" on a wealth of information I've gotten, and I'll be the first to say it if I haven't said that B4.

I talked/referenced a common problem on forums not just here, it's there if you look.

Negatve on your suggestion, we're happy w/the way it its.



If I was only this forum for FIVE MINUTES I'd feel like any moderator would suggest, is that I get respect (as long as I give it out).

This exchange bet. me and you is the point isn't it, the first thing out of my mouth "in big bold" was "VERY RESPECTFULLY", so how long I been on here doesn't have anything to do with. I "lurked" about 3 years, then "jumped in" about a year ago.

So if it's "you ain't been here long so STFU, that's falling on deaf ears.

Say it again, "Sniper's Hide" has my GREATEST RESPECT, me bringing up how we do it on another venue doesn't change that.

I made a suggestion to help, not knock this venue if it's in U to see it that way.
What in the world are you carrying on about?
 
And to clarify what I like, is the ability to ignore people and not respond, whether there is a button or not. All I have to do if I don't like what someone says is ignore them and don't respond. Besides, in another 30 years or so, none of this will mean a damn thing for me. Or most of us.

"Tis no country for old men."
 
I gave Lowlight and this forum it's due respect 3 times in this comment. You're defending this site, when I never knocked it, here or anywhere else.

That makes U laugh, go ahead and laugh.

I not knocking "Sniper's Hide" or I woun't be here; I would be the first to congratulate "Sniper's Hide" on a wealth of information I've gotten, and I'll be the first to say it if I haven't said that B4.

I talked/referenced a common problem on forums not just here, it's there if you look.

Negatve on your suggestion, we're happy w/the way it its.



If I was only this forum for FIVE MINUTES I'd feel like any moderator would suggest, is that I get respect (as long as I give it out).

This exchange bet. me and you is the point isn't it, the first thing out of my mouth "in big bold" was "VERY RESPECTFULLY", so how long I been on here doesn't have anything to do with. I "lurked" about 3 years, then "jumped in" about a year ago.

So if it's "you ain't been here long so STFU, that's falling on deaf ears.

Say it again, "Sniper's Hide" has my GREATEST RESPECT, me bringing up how we do it on another venue doesn't change that.

I made a suggestion to help, not knock this venue if it's in U to see it that way.
Let me paraphrase for your good and the rest of us-es
E783A591-9B87-4157-AF6C-142B80523C7C.jpeg
 
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"This is Lowlight house"... respect was given.

So the same respect goes 4 what U said below or anybody else in the house....

"And to clarify what I like, is the ability to ignore people and not respond, whether there is a button or not. All I have to do if I don't like what someone says is ignore them and don't respond. Besides, in another 30 years or so, none of this will mean a damn thing for me. Or most of us."....

The way of the asshole is to not give that same respect back to folks w/another opinon or a suggestion which U can take or ignore.

Same goes 4 the internet "pile on"....

"So be it"....
 
I'M STILL HERE.

KEEP GOING. PROOVE MY POINT.

SHUTTING THE FUCK ISN'T IN ME AND I'M NOT UR BITCH.
What is your problem? Quit fueling the fire and move on. Or get some thicker skin.

We’ve all had our time of roasting. I’m guessing you’re younger and entitled. Just take a chill pill and relax.
 
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The problem is U asshole, and your inability to READ. THIN SKINNED FOLKS took my comment as insulting when it wasn't.

That's what started this and is keeping it going.

And U jumping in at the end ignoring the personal attacks (STFU-U STUPID BITCH) for the "feeding frenzy"/pile on.


I gave out respect, and gave it FIRST, I'm NOT GOING ANYWHERE.
 
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The problem? NOTHING when U learn to consider a different viewpoint w/o calling somebody a bitch, and the insults doesn't change that.
 
The problem is U asshole, and your inability to READ. THIN SKINNED FOLKS took my comment as insulting when it wasn't.

That's what started this and is keeping it going.

And U jumping in at the end ignoring the personal attacks (STFU-U STUPID BITCH) for the "feeding frenzy"/pile on.


I gave out respect, and gave it FIRST, I'm NOT GOING ANYWHERE.
You cray, man... Cray.
 
You'll get tired of the personal attacks shot my way B4 I do.

The above quote is the point and is "on the money" and insults isn't going to change that.
 
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After reading this, what I would LOVE to C is an experienced shooter from here go in the opposite direction from a comparison of "top tier" scopes along the lines of what Carbonbased touched on, which would be a comparison of various "bargain basement" scopes where somebody makes a "good faith" effort to shoot his best w/these scopes to see how his "best" w/these scopes compares to his "best" efforts w/a top tier scope(s).

I'd love to see just how much of a difference that would be as a result of a shootout by a good shot trying to do his best w/cheap/cheaper/low/lower priced scopes ----vs---- the top tier alpha scopes.

Setting aside the assumption that there's going to be a difference, I'm wondering if something like this is actually done, just how much of a difference that would actually be.

Just how good can a good shooter w/the bare minimum (as if your life depended on it) get/"stack up" vs the best.

If you exclude everything else but putting a round "on the money", how do they stack up.
That’s going to be a hard sell. Matches cost time and money, both of which too valuable to risk on unproven gear. A scope going down can ruin an entire weekend. That’s a weekend spent away from family and the $1000 or so to shoot the match wasted to test “bargain basement” scopes.
 
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I was never interested in getting somebody to buy unproven gear to do a competition/never suggested that, my interest was in the guy who shoots recreationally and who can't afford the gear folks use in a match.

Per my quote, I refered to Carbonbased who jokingly referenced somebody showing up at a match w/lesser gear, taking a page from that, I was thinking of all the folks who DON'T shoot matches and in connection w/some of the reviews Koshkin has done considering just how far cost effect goes/the point where the possibility of finding "overachievers" transition to junk.

There's nothing in my quote about shooting cheap scopes in a match.


Some folks got it in their heads that was what I was saying and never let go.


Koshkin mused that at some point he might do just that. I'll be greatly interested and I agreed w/him it would be fun, but again, my interest would be just what is the bottom line for "decent scopes" for folks who don't have a lot of money.

I STILL think it's a good idea.
 
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Koshkin mused that at some point he might do just that. I'll be greatly interested and I agreed w/him it would be fun, but again, my interest would be just what is the bottom line for "decent scopes" for folks who don't have a lot of money.

I STILL think it's a good idea.
Regardless of what the "pros use" I think this is the decision a lot of shooters make, even the $1000 class of scopes which are pretty good these days are too much, so they usually turn to the Chinese mfr like Vortex Strike Eagles, Bushnell Match Pro, most Athlons, the Arken's et al. The new Primary Arms GLx line just announced (3-18x44 and 4.5-27x56) could make the list for under $1k and NOT China, so I am very curious about these scopes to hit our shores from the Philippines, sadly, if you can only afford less than $700 and looking at new I think the only player is China.
 
The sadness of this thread comes when you don't respect other's right to express a different opinion.

I gave Lowlight and this forum about a paragraph and a half of the utmost respect, I meant that and still do after waking up this morning.


The issue of what scope for folks who don't have a lot of money is something I hope folks will continue to jump into.
 
You have added nothing to this thread of value.

Any gear pretty much any sponsored shooter is running, you can win with. They wouldn't run something that they couldn't win with and they wouldn't continue to be supported unless they shoot well and are good ambassadors.

Again it's people like you who don't shoot compete running your face about stuff you don't know.

If the gear was garbage they would not use it. This game is more about what's between your ears than the label on the equipment. Doug keoining will smoke you with a ruger and Matt Alwine will make you look retarded with a savage. Vibbert will eat your lunch with a USO and King will make you cry with a MK5.

While on the subject of Morgan King ( who is a member here btw)...he shot TT before Leupold. Got tired of sending them back for warranty so switched to leupold and can't say enough good things about them.
This is my situation. If it sucks, I won’t use it, and would just go buy something else that does. I will not sacrifice my personal performance and brand value by using gear that hurts vs helps me. Every piece of the system that doesn’t come out of my $$$ pocket means more ammo and travel $$$ available. That’s where my major ongoing costs are.
 
The problem is U asshole, and your inability to READ. THIN SKINNED FOLKS took my comment as insulting when it wasn't.

That's what started this and is keeping it going.

And U jumping in at the end ignoring the personal attacks (STFU-U STUPID BITCH) for the "feeding frenzy"/pile on.


I gave out respect, and gave it FIRST, I'm NOT GOING ANYWHERE.
Wow. You really jumped into that.

Man, you need to relax. Getting this upset over forum messages…
 
After reading this, what I would LOVE to C is an experienced shooter from here go in the opposite direction from a comparison of "top tier" scopes along the lines of what Carbonbased touched on, which would be a comparison of various "bargain basement" scopes where somebody makes a "good faith" effort to shoot his best w/these scopes to see how his "best" w/these scopes compares to his "best" efforts w/a top tier scope(s).

I'd love to see just how much of a difference that would be as a result of a shootout by a good shot trying to do his best w/cheap/cheaper/low/lower priced scopes ----vs---- the top tier alpha scopes.

Setting aside the assumption that there's going to be a difference, I'm wondering if something like this is actually done, just how much of a difference that would actually be.

Just how good can a good shooter w/the bare minimum (as if your life depended on it) get/"stack up" vs the best.

If you exclude everything else but putting a round "on the money", how do they stack up.
As a shooter improves, the limitations of low cost tools become more obvious. Unless a shooter moved down to a class with restrictions, there is no point. Maybe post divorce or some other financial crash,?but no serious competitor purposely handicaps themselves for fun.
 
It is interesting to see what is being used and people are winning with. I like comparing that to the tracking data that was developed by Marc and Frank from their course.

It is just another data point to help select gear.
 
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"As a shooter improves, the limitations of low cost tools become more obvious. Unless a shooter moved down to a class with restrictions, there is no point. Maybe post divorce or some other financial crash,?but no serious competitor purposely handicaps themselves for fun."....

At least from my point of view leave the competitors out, I was talking about folks who don't compete, the guys who shoot recreationally and as mentioned don't have a ton of money.

Assuming the top tier scopes used in competitions tend to be the most durable, and junk being junk, can quit the 1st day you buy it I wish there was a way to see if a scope "pops up" for the recreational shooter that is underpriced and is tougher than you'd think it'd be for the price.

Again, no junk.
 
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"As a shooter improves, the limitations of low cost tools become more obvious. Unless a shooter moved down to a class with restrictions, there is no point. Maybe post divorce or some other financial crash,?but no serious competitor purposely handicaps themselves for fun."....

At least from my point of view leave the competitors out, I was talking about folks who don't compete. The guys who shoot recreationally and as mentioned don't have a ton of money.
Are you unfamiliar with the “quote” button?

Using it would save you some time and inform the other member you responded to something he posted.
 
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"As a shooter improves, the limitations of low cost tools become more obvious. Unless a shooter moved down to a class with restrictions, there is no point. Maybe post divorce or some other financial crash,?but no serious competitor purposely handicaps themselves for fun."....

At least from my point of view leave the competitors out, I was talking about folks who don't compete. The guys who shoot recreationally and as mentioned don't have a ton of money.
i'd wager the money profile of a lot of the guys on here who don't compete is WAY higher than those on the 'pros' list

and by not a ton of money what do we mean? Strike Eagle as a main scope? XTR3? Razor gen 3? all of those are economical scopes

even a normal shooter understands how the $ of glass works. and no not all shooters care what 'pros' use or what comp shooters use...but it's a data point. it's not like there's some other ongoing list outside of comps (benchrest, PRS, Guardian, etc) that i know of
 
If the shooter can not read the wind within a few clicks it does not make much difference how well that expensive scope tracks.
Clicks? LOL. Spotting misses/Hits/Location on plate is WAY more important and gives you accurate feedback.

A scope that doesnt track is worthless.

Tell us you don't compete without telling us you don't compete.
 
The quote is fine, that its in quotes is obvious, and yes, I'm familiar w/the quote button. If U think something is wrong w/how I did it, simply ignore it.

The forum is 4 everybody, even the folks who don't care/aren't interested in competition.
 
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That I won't do and there's nothing you can do to change it.

Going back to scopes, Glassaholic mentioned $700.00 if I'm not mistaken. I remember a discussion about 1-6 scopes around that price range so for that kind of scope for a recreational shoot would it go much below that or would that be the "hard deck".

Say for use on the weekends, giving it more of workout some weeks/weekends, but not a regular grind.
 
For years the swfa ss 5-20hd was the gold standard for “cheap, but quality/reliable”

I haven’t looked at them in years, but they used to be found for $750-$900 used and $11-1200 new…they lack most of the fancy features of todays scopes in turrets and reticles, but they were always reliable/tracked well and glass was plenty serviceable
 
But it gets U into a decent scope while U decide if U want to take the sport further spending more money or just shoot recreationally is what I would think.
 
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