I've been away from LPVO market for a few years just running a red dot. Has the market given us a scope that is a true 1X with some type of reticle that is clearly visible on a bright, sunny day and useful to range targets, and under 20 oz in weight?
Rifle Scopes Where Are We At With LPVO's
- Thread starter nick338
- Start date
ATACR is still king, but with the weight penalty.
Don't blink, I have a feeling the whole industry is about to observe a paradigm shift from LPVO's to light MPVO's with RD's piggybacked/offset.
Don't blink, I have a feeling the whole industry is about to observe a paradigm shift from LPVO's to light MPVO's with RD's piggybacked/offset.
It’s not as good as the NF ATACR 1-8x but also half the price. The vudu has a little bit of bending of the image on 1x on the edges of the glass. However, I do like the vudu eotech reticle on 1x. If only it was as bright as the ATACR though. Can’t have it all for less than $2k
Both of mine are flat, I would try readjusting the eyepiece focus.
I would not say vudu has a daylight bright reticle. It’s there but definitely not bright. Just enough to see a contrast difference. More of a dull bright.
Both of mine are bright in the bright FL sun. Only way they go to dark red is if I look straight at the sun. It's not Razor bright, but it's absolutely daylight bright. Every bit as bright as the NX8 1-8 I had.
I’ve definitely found the MPVO with offset to be a better overall experience than an LPVO.
In my opinion your best bet would be this one:
Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Griffin MIL M8 Reticle
DetailsThis rifle scope is part of the top tier optics line called PLx. PLx optics meet the exacting demands of professional use, offering impeccable glass clarity and advanced features from state-of-the-art production facilities.Improving on its predecessor, the fully redesigned PLx 1-8x24mm...
www.primaryarms.com
It slots in under your weight requirement, and checks all the rest of your wishes.
Yes, the illumination is plenty bright in the middle of the day.
BUT here is what I'm going to argue, if your LPVO has to have illumination running for you to use it during the day, I see that as a bad thing. What happens if your battery is dead? What if you need to hit targets and don't have time to turn on the illumination?
Love it or hate it, the reticle in the Primary Arms scope is useable at 1x without any illumination even in early morning / late evening conditions.
(If you are at 1x you don't need the ranging stuff, that becomes clear when you increase the magnification).
It's not designed to be a super range scope like the Vortex 1-10, it's designed to be easy to pull up and get a bullet on the threat quickly without much fuss.
Someone will be along shortly to argue with me about "daylight bright reticle" since their interpretation seems to be if you can point your scope at the sun and still see the illuminated reticle or something crazy like that. Let's just say out in the noon day sun in Texas in the middle of summer, you have no problem at all seeing the illuminated reticle. BUT here is my comment, why should you need to use illumination in the middle of the day? That's one more thing to fail.
You can also run a 45 degree offset RDS or Irons if you want with them.
Well, there is the March-FX 1-10X24 DR which is a true 1X and weighs in at 20.8 oz. The dual reticle is very usable during the day, the SFP reticle is easy seen and you have the center illuminated dot if you want it on. The FFP reticle will come into play as you increase the magnification.
It's spendy.
D10SV24FDIMLX (Dual) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation
MARCH Scopes Official Site
marchscopes.com The FFP-only version is a little less expensive.
Agree with above. Both of mine are almost perfect. Try readjusting eye piece while at 1x until image is clear and flat.
Scopes to consider:
Credo HX 1-6 FFP
Razor HD Gen III 1-10 (click the link for a good deal on one)
Vudu 1-10
Primary Arms PLxC 1-8
Credo HX 1-6 FFP
Razor HD Gen III 1-10 (click the link for a good deal on one)
Vudu 1-10
Primary Arms PLxC 1-8
Still the same bullshit…
- nothing perfect, but lots of good options for a variety of preferences and employment styles provided you choose accordingly.
- everyone still wants wants too much for too little in a package size that isn’t possible (or the mfg's aren't interested in giving us)
- everyone suggesting “(their purchase) is King!” with no regard as to why or how they employ it.
- Most would still be just fine with a razor hd 1-6 until the market unfucks itself (which won't be soon) with Better MPVOs to pair with an ACRO/Holosun/etc
- nothing perfect, but lots of good options for a variety of preferences and employment styles provided you choose accordingly.
- everyone still wants wants too much for too little in a package size that isn’t possible (or the mfg's aren't interested in giving us)
- everyone suggesting “(their purchase) is King!” with no regard as to why or how they employ it.
- Most would still be just fine with a razor hd 1-6 until the market unfucks itself (which won't be soon) with Better MPVOs to pair with an ACRO/Holosun/etc
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In my opinion your best bet would be this one:
Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Griffin MIL M8 Reticle
DetailsThis rifle scope is part of the top tier optics line called PLx. PLx optics meet the exacting demands of professional use, offering impeccable glass clarity and advanced features from state-of-the-art production facilities.Improving on its predecessor, the fully redesigned PLx 1-8x24mm...www.primaryarms.com
It slots in under your weight requirement, and checks all the rest of your wishes.
Yes, the illumination is plenty bright in the middle of the day.
BUT here is what I'm going to argue, if your LPVO has to have illumination running for you to use it during the day, I see that as a bad thing. What happens if your battery is dead? What if you need to hit targets and don't have time to turn on the illumination?
Love it or hate it, the reticle in the Primary Arms scope is useable at 1x without any illumination even in early morning / late evening conditions.
(If you are at 1x you don't need the ranging stuff, that becomes clear when you increase the magnification).
It's not designed to be a super range scope like the Vortex 1-10, it's designed to be easy to pull up and get a bullet on the threat quickly without much fuss.
Someone will be along shortly to argue with me about "daylight bright reticle" since their interpretation seems to be if you can point your scope at the sun and still see the illuminated reticle or something crazy like that. Let's just say out in the noon day sun in Texas in the middle of summer, you have no problem at all seeing the illuminated reticle. BUT here is my comment, why should you need to use illumination in the middle of the day? That's one more thing to fail.
You can also run a 45 degree offset RDS or Irons if you want with them.
I won't argue with any of your points and the whole "daylight bright" argument is actually funny to me after someone posted here a few years ago that the term didn't exist.
Whatever, I think my reason for focusing on the reticle being useable in daylight is due to having FFP scopes prior, that on 1X I could not pick up the reticle like I wanted to. Having a red dot has trained me to leave it on all the time and replace the battery periodically to keep it fresh.
I would prefer to keep my illumination on at all times at a setting low enough for low light and darkness and be able to pick up a reticle without illumination during the day and it looks like the Primary Arms scope you mentioned may do that.
At 21oz, I don't think it's too far off his request.
Mount choice should also be considered, if ounces make a difference. Guys will complain about one scope being 1-2 oz heavier than another, then choose a mount that's 3 oz heavier than other options.
I'm excited for the MPVO/RDS revolution, too.
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It has a whole lot of adjustment range, so on low you could leave it on all the time, but you'd be needing to change batteries every so often.
The highest Night Vision setting gives you a dull glow that you can just make out without NV and is useful in your house at night, then it goes up from there.
A RDS that illuminates a single dot takes a lot less energy than a scope illuminating a large reticle area.
In my case, having tons of tech stuff I use all the time, I never actually trust anything electrical or electronic not to decide to stop working at the worst time.
So that's pretty much why I picked the PA ones for my use, because even at 1x, even in lower light, I could use them without needing illumination if worse came to worse.
From what I hear if you don't need a true 1x the new March 1.5 to 15x is pretty interesting with their dual reticle system & light weight.
But that's like 3 of the PA scopes so...
To your last point about the reticle being useable at 1x without illumination, it is and is the reason I bought it, along with the ranging of the ACSS and the lightweight/compact body.
It's not "perfect" if you need nuclear bright illumination and you don't like the reticle, but I like the ACSS for it's ease of ranging unknown target distances and I wanted a FFP that if my batteries are out I could use the etched reticle on 1x, this fit my needs to a "T".
The reticle runs like a SFP cross hair reticle on 1x, but gives you plenty of information as you scale up. I like the Vudu 1-10, atacr 1-8, razor 1-10, but the need for illumination is much more needed for those reticles on 1x imo. The Vudu is close, but I feel like the ring is a little bit to big for a refined aiming point on 1x, it shows up well but depending on the distance it's a little to big to "shoulder" a target quickly. Jmo
I dont pay attention to the industry. But revolutionary MPVO/red dot? Like a 2-12? Or what?
Or like a 2-10 with a red dot up top? That's revolutionary? My kinda clone of a 20 year old rifle setup doesn't think MVPO/red dot is revolutionary.
Or like a 2-10 with a red dot up top? That's revolutionary? My kinda clone of a 20 year old rifle setup doesn't think MVPO/red dot is revolutionary.
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True 1X is important to me. Even though the bullet has left the muzzle by the time my eye catches up with the slight focus issue of a non-true 1X, I would rather not deal with it.
No interest in spending $4-5k on an optic that I may stretch to 500-600 yards so I may give the PA a go.
I mean the Sig MCX Spear crowd might disagree with you
The March 1.5 - 15 would probably fit right in there if actual 1x is not needed. ($$$$$$$)
If you do decide to go that route know there are 3 reticle options. M8 yards, M8 meters and their mil based grid reticle. The yards and mil reticles have a smaller horseshoe on 1x and are busier. The meters horseshoe is about twice the size on 1x and will give you a little better space on 8x between the Chevron and the horseshoe ring for visibility. Personal preference but just wanted you to be aware.
LE5 reticle is the first FFP LPVO reticle I’ve used that is actually usable at 1x with no illumination. One of the many reasons why I have two of them. Their other reticles may be too but I haven’t used them.
These scopes get a bad rap because the 1-6’s sucked and nobody even wants to try them based on that. They are truly excellent LPVO’s.
Who?I mean the Sig MCX Spear crowd might disagree with you
Steiner T6Xi 1-6x24 - KC-1 MIL #5103
- 6x Zoom Range
- Illuminated KC-1 Reticle
- Exposed or capped elevation turrets
- Throw lever
- Low-profile never-lost turrets
- Second rotation indicator
- Illumination - 4 night / 7 day levels
- Waterproof / Fogproof / Shockproof
Dimensions 10.4" Weight 20.0 oz Central Tube Diameter 30mm
Yeah, all 4 of them in the country.I mean the Sig MCX Spear crowd might disagree with you
But the Army chose it so it must be real.
Against my better judgement, ignoring the voice inside my head that says, "Just keep scrolling Ja, don't say it", I'm going to say it.
I've spent a bunch of years shooting 3 Gun. Which is simply one of the most demanding activities you can put an LPVO through. Targets from 5 yards to 500 yards. Getting tossed in and out of dump boxes, cranking over the mag ring constantly. Scraping and banging them up on props and shooting positions. I've beat several scopes to death in this sport and broken several that needed to be repaired or replaced. 3 Gun is a very demanding testing grounds of an LPVO. I've ran a MK8 CQBSS, a Kahles K16i, and Vortex PST. I still own a GenII Razor 6x, an 8x XTRII made by LOW, and a lowly Chinese made $300 RT-6.
Based on my experiences, I personally find it extremely difficult to justify the cost of a "high end" LPVO. As with all things, if a person has the money and really wants something nice, have at it. But from a performance standpoint, high end LPVOs are a waste of that money. Demands on performance glass is practically nonexistant. My cheap chicom scope resolves images at 500 and 600 yards with more than enough clarity, even in low light. So all you need is durable and reliable, which can be had at some crazy low price points these days.
If I used these for a living, I would spend more for peace of mind. But for everyone else, you could run any well made optic from $300 up to the upper end $1k PA Platinum and see zero functional loss to a more expensive optic. What I DO think is worth the money, is paying a little more for an 8x, or 10x. I do see a functional difference in the slightly higher magnification optics versus the 6x. As pointed out above, I think the 10x Vudu is an excellent versatile choice. Or the new Razor.
Ok. My two bits
I've spent a bunch of years shooting 3 Gun. Which is simply one of the most demanding activities you can put an LPVO through. Targets from 5 yards to 500 yards. Getting tossed in and out of dump boxes, cranking over the mag ring constantly. Scraping and banging them up on props and shooting positions. I've beat several scopes to death in this sport and broken several that needed to be repaired or replaced. 3 Gun is a very demanding testing grounds of an LPVO. I've ran a MK8 CQBSS, a Kahles K16i, and Vortex PST. I still own a GenII Razor 6x, an 8x XTRII made by LOW, and a lowly Chinese made $300 RT-6.
Based on my experiences, I personally find it extremely difficult to justify the cost of a "high end" LPVO. As with all things, if a person has the money and really wants something nice, have at it. But from a performance standpoint, high end LPVOs are a waste of that money. Demands on performance glass is practically nonexistant. My cheap chicom scope resolves images at 500 and 600 yards with more than enough clarity, even in low light. So all you need is durable and reliable, which can be had at some crazy low price points these days.
If I used these for a living, I would spend more for peace of mind. But for everyone else, you could run any well made optic from $300 up to the upper end $1k PA Platinum and see zero functional loss to a more expensive optic. What I DO think is worth the money, is paying a little more for an 8x, or 10x. I do see a functional difference in the slightly higher magnification optics versus the 6x. As pointed out above, I think the 10x Vudu is an excellent versatile choice. Or the new Razor.
Ok. My two bits
First off, that looks like a pretty handy general purpose rifle.
You trend setter you...
I'm not sure that anyone said revolutionary. I used the term paradigm shift, which I still believe to be the correct term for what we're seeing/about to see. One can't deny that what's certainly not new is currently growing more popular with the MPVO/RD concept.
Since the LPVO boom about ten years ago, people have been obsessed with obtaining a LPVO that completely replaces their RD, their traditional higher power optic, or hopefully both at the same time. Most consumers have always had a fairly unrealistic set of expectations for LPVO's, and thus have pushed the market to saturate with LPVO options in all price ranges, bending and contorting the design and feature-set to be more like RD's and/or MPVO's in performance.
I merely think the "people" are moving past this hopeful excitement for the do-all-scope concept, and enough individuals [thinking for themselves] have begun to push the pendulum back the other way, or at least retard the movement enough for pause, and are reassessing the MPVO & RD combo.
Mark my words, the LPVO is not going anywhere, but rather demand will die down, and you will see more "general purpose rifles" with task specific variable optics and RD's combo'd on them.
Cheers
Having used LVPO's professionally, I have discovered I much prefer a 2.5-10×24 instead. With a little practice they can be run like a regular red dot or mount a set of offsets
What do you gain with a 2.5-10 that you can't do with 1-8 if you have a reticle that's usable at 1X?
Professionally huh? In what compacity?
Law Enforcement
So you're using your rifle in a law enforcement capacity that requires that much precision? Where are you're dedicated snipers?
I’ve used both the x32 an x42 for that but never wanted to run the x24s I had in that capacity on my AR SPR secondary. I even felt the 1-8nxs was lacking due to similar problems.
In the police/police sniper capacity for an Lpvo, you could roll with something as simple as an exos 1-8 (and I have)
If I'm in a group as a designated marksman then my rifle will be built accordingly and I would run the appropriate optic for it which would most likely be an MPVO with an offset red dot, but for a carbine setup I think that combo is shifting the capability backwards not forward.
Yeah, I’m very curious what LE role would benefit from a 2.5-10 vs a 1-6/8. Even in a sniper capacity, the average distance is ~50 yards.
I’m not LE though. So I am truly interested in hearing the reasoning/CONOPS.
From my mil/non-LE experience, a 2-10/12 would be pretty damned good for an SDM role. It would still work for an average infantryman too, as plenty of buildings have been cleared with 4x ACOGs. And the majority of infantry work is still out in the open. But a 1-6/8 optic is a better overall choice for the average infantryman, who faces much farther threats than most LE.
Which “combo”?
Hard to know how you will do business till you do business…. Cliche but mission drives the gear train.
My preconceived notions got blown out of the water quickly…my setups never stopped evolving. It got to be a very delicate balancing act to try and optimize for all our capabilities without sacrificing one for the other and leveraging probability with possibility.
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An MPVO with an offset red dot on a carbine.
Agree with mission specific requirements but a carbine is still a carbine. Everything is a tradeoff and there is no one size fits all.
I wouldn't run an LPVO on a bolt action 300 Norma just because it allows me to engage a target quickly up close.
I'll stick with a 1-6/8 LPVO on a carbine or strictly a red dot with magnifier. Too much capability in these optics today for me to go with anything over a 1X on the low end.
Where’s the love for the TA31/TA33 with a Triji RMR ? Inside of 100 yards it’s a great setup and very lightweight
I tried it, the cheek weld sucked for me with the RMR.
If you require the MPVO to see you need to see, then that's the game. The advancement in mRDS optics like the ACRO have helped satisfy a decent 1x/close-range optic and frees one from the obligation of the 1x. That being said, it's funny watching the "johnny-come-lately" enter the LPVO space having never used 1.1x, 1.5x, or even 2.5x bottom ends to do work whine about their 1x not being "true 1x". Not saying I want to go back to that willingly but the 1x bottom end today isn't as critical as many make it out to be.
Sadly, there are many here that feel they need to do 300Norma distance stuff with an LPVO...they'd Tremor it up and add adj. parallax and all that crap.
Yes, there's a lot of "capability" to be had, but I feel (and have voiced this here several times) that many LPVO's leverage one end for the other. They're geared toward the top end/distance at the expense of the bottom end or vice versa. If one does not choose the right optic for their endeavor, they're in for a rough time no matter what they shelled out for their glass.
Guys are running 1.93 and 2.26 mounts nowadays especially with NV ... RMR on top of acog is not that much higher
Its fun watching a lot of these industry cats slowly bringing things back down lower now as they age and retire. There's significant trade-offs to every height in the game from 1.375"-2.05". IMHO 2.26 for an LPVO is straight silly on a carbine. If you gotta have that much height/clearance, you might have the wrong tool for the job. "Because the other guy does it" is not sound reasoning. Ain't no free lunches
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