.223 - 5.56

MarkyMark007 said:

want some help pls with 223 for long range...

I'm strugling with F-TR 223REM with Sierra 95gr MK, at 1000m. I'm runing them at ~2730fps from 32' barrel, 1:7'' twist.
Water line at 1000m is barely 1MOA, a lot of the time approaching 2MOA...
Brass is Lapua, primer from CCI or Murom or Sellier&Belot, powder Vihtavuori N140 or Reload Swiss 50.
I'm using 0.080' or 0.060' jump, which is ~2,650' OAL and this gave me sometimes <0.5MOA groups at 600y....

What are your experiences with 223 (and Sierra 95gr MK) for LR ?

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The 95s are wildly inconsistent lot to lot and intolerant of small changes in jump in my experience. I’d probably look at the bullets right away as the likely culprit, especially if your process and other components are sound.

Try 85.5s, 90VLDs, or even the older style factory pointed 90 SMK. All of them are going to be appreciably better in terms of consistency and jump tolerance.

yes, but in LOT they are very consistent from base to ogive (within 0.001''), but for OAL I measure them and put into batches of 0.003''.

Berger 85.5 - I tried, but in this chamber it has to be very long jump to be bullet firmly into the neck. And with that long jump, I was not happy with eccuracy.

only Hornady 90gr Atip and maybe 88ELD-M are appropriate for my current chamber, if I want to have bullet more in the neck and not extremly long jump. B-85.5 and B-90-VLD has way shorter bearing surface.

I can get Hornady 90gr Atip, but have they reputation to be better than Sierra's 95gr for long-range?

Maybe different brass like RWS or NORMA or SAKO will make some instant changes ?

Next I will try new virgin Lapua brass, because now I have 6× fired brass, and I will see if there will be some diferences.
But this will be tested first at 600y not 1100y... Next trip to 1100y will be on 27.october...



PS: Ned Ludd is on this forum?

Hopefully this is the right place to ask this: I am brand new to reloading and I bought Hornady 75gr ELD-M bullets thinking I could use them in an AR-15 (5.56 NATO), but I just found out that they are too long for the magazine at the correct seating depth... and I do not have a 223 Remington bolt gun.

If I seat the bullets to the right depth they won't fit in the magazine, but can I single feed the rounds into my rifle (it is a bench rifle so this wouldn't really be that big of an issue)? Or is the overall length wrong for the chamber as well? I see the COAL for the 75gr ELD-M is 2.390", but I am not sure if that is too long since the 73gr. ELD-M COAL is 2.250" and something like the 55gr SP is 2.200" and presumably both those bullets would work in an AR-15 (?).

Am I SOL on the 75gr ELD-M bullets? Thanks!

iGetHangry said:

Hopefully this is the right place to ask this: I am brand new to reloading and I bought Hornady 75gr ELD-M bullets thinking I could use them in an AR-15 (5.56 NATO), but I just found out that they are too long for the magazine at the correct seating depth... and I do not have a 223 Remington bolt gun.

If I seat the bullets to the right depth they won't fit in the magazine, but can I single feed the rounds into my rifle (it is a bench rifle so this wouldn't really be that big of an issue)? Or is the overall length wrong for the chamber as well? I see the COAL for the 75gr ELD-M is 2.390", but I am not sure if that is too long since the 73gr. ELD-M COAL is 2.250" and something like the 55gr SP is 2.200" and presumably both those bullets would work in an AR-15 (?).

Am I SOL on the 75gr ELD-M bullets? Thanks!

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Certainly won’t be optimized in terms of performance but they will shoot fine. Main issue is feeding.

Just make sure it goes into battery.

Cold bore 5shot group.

quick question ?
Is ( Reloader15 ), to slow for a 62 grain fmj's.
.

softcock said:

quick question ?
Is ( Reloader15 ), to slow for a 62 grain fmj's.
.

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No

Anyone shooting the Accurate DSSF 5 (or ten) round magazine?
I see it has a listed max OAL of 2.325". I'm way longer then that at 2.482". I like the idea of a short magazine but can they be modded to go longer?
Reducing my OAL is not an option.
Thanks guys!

Rob01 said:

Why not just use the MDT poly mags with their 2.550" oal?

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I do, however I'm looking for a shorter profile magazine.

Has anyone had good luck shooting mag-fed 90VLDs? What speeds are you seeing and from what load/barrel length/freebore?

An ISSF chamber with .169 freebore puts a 90VLD with .020” jump around 2.620-2.630” COL. Most modified .223 mags will accompany around 2.580” COL. My experience is that most Hybrids will shoot well between .060-.080” jump, but I’ve also heard (not tested) that the 90s can be a little picky.

Concerns about decreasing the freebore would be at the cost of speed. Thinking 2750-2775fps would be about the minimum for offsetting any performance differences from the faster 80-85gr options.

just browsing said:

Has anyone had good luck shooting mag-fed 90VLDs? What speeds are you seeing and from what load/barrel length/freebore?

An ISSF chamber with .169 freebore puts a 90VLD with .020” jump around 2.620-2.630” COL. Most modified .223 mags will accompany around 2.580” COL. My experience is that most Hybrids will shoot well between .060-.080” jump, but I’ve also heard (not tested) that the 90s can be a little picky.

Concerns about decreasing the freebore would be at the cost of speed. Thinking 2750-2775fps would be about the minimum for offsetting any performance differences from the faster 80-85gr options.

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I have mag fed 88s, even longer than 90s from a 2.55" MDT mag. I uwed leverevolution. I have to check my notes for velocity when I get home. 26" barrel. From what I remember it wasn't fast enough to justify using 88s over a 75 or 80gr eld. That was just on paper/ballistic calc though. Havent but them to much use so far. They just dont shoot that well for me yet.

The Berger 85.5s work much better for me. I also have some 90gr SMKs I havent tried yet. Most of my shooting is single feeding for F class, although I do get out and shoot the odd PRS match here and there. Was hoping to use the 88s at mag length for that. I think I was getting low 2700s but dont remember.

*for mag feeding, a 75gr eld at nearly 3000 fps is hard to beat. Its also cheaper and more widely available.

jLorenzo said:

I have mag fed 88s, even longer than 90s from a 2.55" MDT mag. I uwed leverevolution. I have to check my notes for velocity when I get home. 26" barrel. From what I remember it wasn't fast enough to justify using 88s over a 75 or 80gr eld. That was just on paper/ballistic calc though. Havent but them to much use so far. They just dont shoot that well for me yet.

The Berger 85.5s work much better for me. I also have some 90gr SMKs I havent tried yet. Most of my shooting is single feeding for F class, although I do get out and shoot the odd PRS match here and there. Was hoping to use the 88s at mag length for that. I think I was getting low 2700s but dont remember.

*for mag feeding, a 75gr eld at nearly 3000 fps is hard to beat. Its also cheaper and more widely available.

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Thanks for the info. I shoot a ton of 75s and 80 ELDs in my Tikka. Both are great.

But they definitely run out of steam past 8-900 yards, regardless of what the ballistic calculators say. Not to mention, they’re really dainty impacts especially on big plates and splash is much harder to see.

I was able to get the 88 ELDs and 90SMKs to 2750 pretty comfortably using Varget in my other 26” barrel. I’m thinking I would be able to get at least 2800 with the new 28” barrel and switching to 4895. Probably even a little higher with the 85.5s. All of those combos/speeds would be appreciably better than the 75/80s at 3k.

I was asking about the 90 VLDs because they have the best BC of the bunch, but I think it may be a little too much bullet for mag length.

just browsing said:

Thanks for the info. I shoot a ton of 75s and 80 ELDs in my Tikka. Both are great.

But they definitely run out of steam past 8-900 yards, regardless of what the ballistic calculators say. Not to mention, they’re really dainty impacts especially on big plates and splash is much harder to see.

I was able to get the 88 ELDs and 90SMKs to 2750 pretty comfortably using Varget in my other 26” barrel. I’m thinking I would be able to get at least 2800 with the new 28” barrel and switching to 4895. Probably even a little higher with the 85.5s. All of those combos/speeds would be appreciably better than the 75/80s at 3k.

I was asking about the 90 VLDs because they have the best BC of the bunch, but I think it may be a little too much bullet for mag length.

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At 700+ I definitely noticed the 88s smacked harder, compared to 75gr bthps I was shooting that day, WAY less wind hold. I still want to try the 88s bought a 250 bag when they were on sale. Try leverevolution, somewhere around 25-26gr range (obiviously work up) will get you like 100 fps more than varget. Just watch the temps, it is sensitive.

jLorenzo said:

At 700+ I definitely noticed the 88s smacked harder, compared to 75gr bthps I was shooting that day, WAY less wind hold. I still want to try the 88s bought a 250 bag when they were on sale. Try leverevolution, somewhere around 25-26gr range (obiviously work up) will get you like 100 fps more than varget. Just watch the temps, it is sensitive.

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LeverRev is a non-starter for me because of the temp sensitivity. I’ll take a lower velocity with better consistency any day.

I think I’ll find it with one of the 85.5 or 90SMK. I have some 88s to try too, but they’re about the same length as the VLDs and I have a feeling will be on the slower side.

AB Mobile Lab trued out 85.5s around .272 with 2% variance and the 90SMKs around .268 with less than 1% variance in my gun. Either of those at 2825-2850 should give me what I’m looking for.

just browsing said:

LeverRev is a non-starter for me because of the temp sensitivity. I’ll take a lower velocity with better consistency any day.

I think I’ll find it with one of the 85.5 or 90SMK. I have some 88s to try too, but they’re about the same length as the VLDs and I have a feeling will be on the slower side.

AB Mobile Lab trued out 85.5s around .272 with 2% variance and the 90SMKs around .268 with less than 1% variance in my gun. Either of those at 2825-2850 should give me what I’m looking for.

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Yeah my F class load is 85.5s @ 2900. Shoots very well.

I have a 223 wylde chambered barrel and 223 .150 freebore barrel for a bighorn origin available in the buy sale trade section.

Anyone use 2520 for 75gr eldm’s? Trying to work up an accurate load with good velocity but haven gotten the 2 to cross paths yet; still going up in charge weight checking for pressures though.

03machstock said:

Anyone use 2520 for 75gr eldm’s? Trying to work up an accurate load with good velocity but haven gotten the 2 to cross paths yet; still going up in charge weight checking for pressures though.

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What is your COAL? In one of my 223 rifles, the 75 needs to be at 1.470" COAL to get them to shoot well.

MarshallDodge said:

What is your COAL? In one of my 223 rifles, the 75 needs to be at 1.470" COAL to get them to shoot well.

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2.545 OAL, 1.988 BTO. 26” .223 with .100” freebore

TommyD11730 said:

Anyone shooting the Accurate DSSF 5 (or ten) round magazine?
I see it has a listed max OAL of 2.325". I'm way longer then that at 2.482". I like the idea of a short magazine but can they be modded to go longer?
Reducing my OAL is not an option.
Thanks guys!

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Yes, that is my magazine of choice. The factory COAL is short due to the front of the mag having a plastic lip. But that lip is only at the top, so file it away flush with the inner wall and you get a much longer COAL (I can measure later if you'd like) I prefer these over the MDT mags because they feed much smoother and with a modified follower (my brother prints these) they single feed like a dream!

lead ƒarmer said:

Yes, that is my magazine of choice. The factory COAL is short due to the front of the mag having a plastic lip. But that lip is only at the top, so file it away flush with the inner wall and you get a much longer COAL (I can measure later if you'd like) I prefer these over the MDT mags because they feed much smoother and with a modified follower (my brother prints these) they single feed like a dream!

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I'm so glad you reply to my post. I ran into a shooter locally who said the same thing. Dremel.. chain saw file you name it and Bob's your Uncle.
Ask your brother if he would like to share the STL file. I would love to print one.
Have a nice night.

Is it possible to shoot light FB projectiles out of a 1-7T?
I believe Berger suggests something around 1-14T

TommyD11730 said:

Is it possible to shoot light FB projectiles out of a 1-7T?
I believe Berger suggests something around 1-14T

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How light? I've seen 50gr V-Max's shoot great from multiple 7 twist barrels.

TommyD11730 said:

Is it possible to shoot light FB projectiles out of a 1-7T?
I believe Berger suggests something around 1-14T

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My light load is 52g speer flat base hp at 1.0g under book max with cfe223. @ 3100 fps.
It's in a 1/8 20 ar inch barrel.

Performs 3/8 moa. (0.36 moa best day)

For comparison only this is a plinker load shot from 50 - 200 yards mostly.

Note: holding the little 52g flat base bullets to get them started in seating die is a pain.

Berger 55g FB

TonyTheTiger said:

How light? I've seen 50gr V-Max's shoot great from multiple 7 twist barrels.

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The theory is that 1:14 is going to give you the best accuracy.

I have shot 55 grain Nosler BTs out of my 24" 1:7 Krieger averaging under 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

TommyD11730 said:

Is it possible to shoot light FB projectiles out of a 1-7T?
I believe Berger suggests something around 1-14T

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I shoot 40gr v max from a 30” 1:7. They are the factory Fiocchis. They run about 3800 and shoot high .2’s and low .3’s most days. Best factory load I have personally shot. All holes at 100 are perfectly round and have shot them out to 550 with no issues. Not flat base, but certainly light weight. YMMV

morning would said:

I shoot 40gr v max from a 30” 1:7. They are the factory Fiocchis. They run about 3800 and shoot high .2’s and low .3’s most days. Best factory load I have personally shot. All holes at 100 are perfectly round and have shot them out to 550 with no issues. Not flat base, but certainly light weight. YMMV

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Holding together. 0.218 or 0.219 ?

Seymour Fish said:

Holding together. 0.218 or 0.219 ?

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Yep, they hold together. Should also mention I am at 5200’ ASL. As for the barrel, no idea. This is a stock Savage 12 FTR

Got off the phone with Berger.. they are of the opinion they will shoot "fine" out of my 28" 1-7. I didn't expect them to say any different.
My current load of 80.5 Berger shot a season avg of .430" @ 200Y. So, I'm looking to improve on that.
I only shoot 200Y.

morning would said:

I shoot 40gr v max from a 30” 1:7. They are the factory Fiocchis. They run about 3800 and shoot high .2’s and low .3’s most days. Best factory load I have personally shot. All holes at 100 are perfectly round and have shot them out to 550 with no issues. Not flat base, but certainly light weight. YMMV

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Did I read that right... 3800 FPS? I wouldn't imagine you would have that kind of case capacity in 223.

Seymour Fish said:

0.218 or 0.219 ?

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TommyD11730 said:

Did I read that right... 3800 FPS? I wouldn't imagine you would have that kind of case capacity in 223.

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Yes sir. Shot them over my Garmin last Saturday. Almost shit when I saw the speed. Gotta be that barrel length.

jLorenzo said:

I have mag fed 88s, even longer than 90s from a 2.55" MDT mag. I uwed leverevolution. I have to check my notes for velocity when I get home. 26" barrel. From what I remember it wasn't fast enough to justify using 88s over a 75 or 80gr eld. That was just on paper/ballistic calc though. Havent but them to much use so far. They just dont shoot that well for me yet.

The Berger 85.5s work much better for me. I also have some 90gr SMKs I havent tried yet. Most of my shooting is single feeding for F class, although I do get out and shoot the odd PRS match here and there. Was hoping to use the 88s at mag length for that. I think I was getting low 2700s but dont remember.

*for mag feeding, a 75gr eld at nearly 3000 fps is hard to beat. Its also cheaper and more widely available.

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For Ftr, the 88 eldm is the easy button. Not finicky, about .035 off. Run 2820-2850 depending on brass capacity. Real world bc seems better than the 90 Berger. H4895

Is the Lapua 77gr scenar the highest bc bullet that will fit in a 5.56 AR mag? I do a lot of gas gun matches (not PRS just PRS like) and I’d like to have a versatile bullet I can use in both a 16” ar, 18” ar, and 26” .223 bolt gun if I need to.

Seymour Fish said:

For Ftr, the 88 eldm is the easy button. Not finicky, about .035 off. Run 2820-2850 depending on brass capacity. Real world bc seems better than the 90 Berger. H4895

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How does it feed in AICS mags?

farofeiro said:

How does it feed in AICS mags?

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Single-load only. Throat out to .190

farofeiro said:

Is the Lapua 77gr scenar the highest bc bullet that will fit in a 5.56 AR mag? I do a lot of gas gun matches (not PRS just PRS like) and I’d like to have a versatile bullet I can use in both a 16” ar, 18” ar, and 26” .223 bolt gun if I need to.

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Yep. Or the old 77 SMK.

I use
75 eld-m 2.525
80 eld-m 2.535
80 smk 2.515
80.5 Berger 2.515

All feeds fine from MDT polymer (2.550 coal) or modified MDT metal (needs to trim the insert) in a Nuke 2.0/XLR Envy Pro

All with varget but I can use XBR with the 75 eld-m as well.
Freebore Throat is .160 I believe (100 thou more than 223 Wylde)

TommyD11730 said:

Got off the phone with Berger.. they are of the opinion they will shoot "fine" out of my 28" 1-7. I didn't expect them to say any different.
My current load of 80.5 Berger shot a season avg of .430" @ 200Y. So, I'm looking to improve on that.
I only shoot 200Y.

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I think most companies list minimum twist rates.

With the exception of frangible type stuff where they list maximums .

It is my opinion that flat base bullets will group better than boat tails at 200 yards and in especially when moving 3000 fps or more since drag is not yet a determining factor.

And that is a most humble opinion but what my 223's do.

And I fully belive after personally talking with the Berger staff that they will tell you exactly what you can expect out of thier bullets.

jLorenzo said:

I have mag fed 88s, even longer than 90s from a 2.55" MDT mag. I uwed leverevolution. I have to check my notes for velocity when I get home. 26" barrel. From what I remember it wasn't fast enough to justify using 88s over a 75 or 80gr eld. That was just on paper/ballistic calc though. Havent but them to much use so far. They just dont shoot that well for me yet.

The Berger 85.5s work much better for me. I also have some 90gr SMKs I havent tried yet. Most of my shooting is single feeding for F class, although I do get out and shoot the odd PRS match here and there. Was hoping to use the 88s at mag length for that. I think I was getting low 2700s but dont remember.

*for mag feeding, a 75gr eld at nearly 3000 fps is hard to beat. Its also cheaper and more widely available.

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My feelings too. 75gr ELD-M was the sweet spot between speed and BC and I found them slightly more accurate than the 80s.

Snuby642 said:

I think most companies list minimum twist rates.

With the exception of frangible type stuff where they list maximums .

It is my opinion that flat base bullets will group better than boat tails at 200 yards and in especially when moving 3000 fps or more since drag is not yet a determining factor.

And that is a most humble opinion but what my 223's do.

And I fully belive after personally talking with the Berger staff that they will tell you exactly what you can expect out of thier bullets.

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A lot of 0-300 records are done with flat base bullets.

farofeiro said:

Is the Lapua 77gr scenar the highest bc bullet that will fit in a 5.56 AR mag?

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Nosler 77gr RDF was last time I looked. .454 G1 to the Scenar or SMK's .38ish if I remember correctly.

padom said:

RDF's shot like shit for me,

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Well, yeah. That's how they do be. I've actually shot some of my best and worst groups with RDF's. From the same gun. On the same day.

Regardless, I answered the question in the most technically correct way I knew how.

Seymour Fish said:

For Ftr, the 88 eldm is the easy button. Not finicky, about .035 off. Run 2820-2850 depending on brass capacity. Real world bc seems better than the 90 Berger. H4895

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This was my experience as well. The 88 ELD-m was excellent for accuracy and ran from AICS pattern mags from MDT.
Also as @st1650 mentioned, after much testing, the 75 eld-m was the sweet spot for BC and velocity. I didn't see much difference between the 75 and 80s but the 75s were more available at the time, so I went with those. Haven't looked back.

Seymour Fish said:

Yep. Or the old 77 SMK.

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My noveske does not seem to love 77 SMKs. Groups are not as small as I’d like with any powder I’ve tried nor are they as tight as I’d like with factory match ammo. The best results I’ve had with factory ammo was with S&B OTM 5.56. This led me to believe the barrel did not like SMKs and it seems I was right. Tested Lapua 77gr scenar Ls and Berger 73gr otms and basically cut group size and sd/es in half. I’m very impressed with the lapua scenars.

^^^^^^^ Ever tried the 69g smk's ? Same gun ?

Snuby642 said:

^^^^^^^ Ever tried the 69g smk's ? Same gun ?

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I have not but I will grab some

Check where you run into the lands on them. I had to go back all the way to 2.230 coal.
1.760? Bto (wag) without getting up off my but.

I flowed and popped a batch of primers at 2.250. Now same powder is just flattering them a bit. I may go down another 0.010 thousands since at 24.0g of H335 there is room left. (Book max from Hodgdon 24.3 at this shorter lenght)

Have my next ladder test sitting here but day after Christmas is normally a mess at the range if you know what I mean. Lol