22 ARC

Ive been sheding light on this cartridge's performance for over a year now labeled as the 22 DPC (Desert Precision Cartridge). The dimensions are almost the same besides the freebore is half of that of the 22 ARC and 22ARC is based off 6.5 Grendel go gauge. 22 DPC is off the ARC case gauge (.030 difference in length). Im really excited to see Hornady take notice and get this into the market. We have these available in 18 and 22in AR15 barrels. Desert Precision Gunworks. 80gr SMK's are pushing 2940 FPS with Varget at 57K PSI (tested with pressure trace II system) 18in barrel

jzerfoss said:

I wonder what barrel length they are basing those velocities off of.

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Based on what hornady said, tests were performed in 24” test barrels.

Ledzep said:

Should be really close. Will probably have to wait til January for SAAMI drawings to go public. I believe it's in the ball park of .130" freebore so if you have a shorter throat factory ammo might stick on you.

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From a .224 grendel group on fuckbook, someone on there supposedly has resources and he said the freebore is like .020” longer than his smiths 22 grendel reamer.

EagleEyeShooting said:

Ive been sheding light on this cartridge's performance for over a year now labeled as the 22 DPC (Desert Precision Cartridge). The dimensions are litterally the same besides the freebore is half of that of the 22 ARC. Im really excited to see Hornady take notice and get this into the market. We have these available in 18 and 22in AR15 barrels. Desert Precision Gunworks. 80gr SMK's are pushing 2940 FPS with Varget at 57K PSI (tested with pressure trace II system) 18in barrel

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Kenny, have you tried N140 with the 22 DPC? Interested to hear what powders you've had success with, namely temp stable ones.

22ARC chamber dimensions are able to be released as of yesterday. I can confirm 6.5 Grendel gauges are used for headspacing

Todc said:

Kenny, have you tried N140 with the 22 DPC? Interested to hear what powders you've had success with, namely temp stable ones.

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Having played with the 22 Grendel for a while, I found a vast array of powders to work but the gas system is picky needing it to be a Rifle +1 at minimum else the bolt will try to unlock early causing CHS (case head swipe) ive had really good results with:

77gr - 90gr
6.5 Staball
Staball match
H4350
H100v
CFE223

50-69gr
H335
N140
Varget

The 22 DPC in an 18in barrel is a rifle length gas. This case is .030" shorter and I found it to mitigate CHS and get really good velocities while keeping pressures down these powders worked the best

60gr-90gr
N140
Varget
CFE223
H4350

Reamer prints can be aquired by Dave Manson if interested

Just looking at ammo on Hornady's site it looks like test barrels are:
24" .223
20" 5.56
24" .224 valkyrie

I would figure they would use a 24" barrel for testing 22arc for comparison sake against .224v? I have a hard time seeing those numbers from shorter barrels but some powders are just like magic.

Yeah, all the published velocity stuff from Hornady unless otherwise specified can be assumed at 24". Rule of thumb is going to be (stand by for a real shocker) 20-25fps per inch from our testing in 16, 18, 20, and 24" barrels.

Ledzep said:

Yeah, all the published velocity stuff from Hornady unless otherwise specified can be assumed at 24". Rule of thumb is going to be (stand by for a real shocker) 20-25fps per inch from our testing in 16, 18, 20, and 24" barrels.

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So 3000 to 3100 from a 16” AR with the 62gr? That definitely interests me quite a bit as I was considering the 6 ARC but we can’t hunt big game with semis here in PA so the 22 ARC would be a better fit for the crows, groundhogs and coyotes we can hunt.

3,000 from a 16” AR15 with a .395 G1?

And to think I have fun shooting my 16” .223 to 600 with 53 V-Maxes at the same speed…….

Impressive amount of thought into the bullets, I kinda wanna try the 62gr in a 5.56.

Hopefully the 22ARC can fulfill their marketing promises !

Bacarrat said:

I hate podcast. I watched like the first 10 minutes of it and they weren't reallying saying anything to that. I have better shit to do than to watch a bunch of dudes talking about how they think they reinvented the wheel.

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I watched their podcast comparing the 22ARC to the 224 Valkyrie and it was a disappointment. No real data, just a lot of "its better." They didn't even say what the velocity gain for the 22 ARC using the 88 ELD vs the same bullet for 224V. Perfect chance to sell me on the cartridge, but nope. The Black 75 grain ammo uses an entirely different bullet, and that is why its better (according to them) than the 224V using the 75 BTHP bullet. Ok, let's put that bullet in the 224V and compare it then. I'll wait a year or two before I look seriously at this cartridge. My guess is that its so marginally "better" that its not worth the effort for me. I'll stick with the 224V. I've had great luck with it.

LDO416 said:

I watched their podcast comparing the 22ARC to the 224 Valkyrie and it was a disappointment. No real data, just a lot of "its better." They didn't even say what the velocity gain for the 22 ARC using the 88 ELD vs the same bullet for 224V. Perfect chance to sell me on the cartridge, but nope. The Black 75 grain ammo uses an entirely different bullet, and that is why its better (according to them) than the 224V using the 75 BTHP bullet. Ok, let's put that bullet in the 224V and compare it then. I'll wait a year or two before I look seriously at this cartridge. My guess is that its so marginally "better" that its not worth the effort for me. I'll stick with the 224V. I've had great luck with it.

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They went over it in one of the podcasts, they had a lot of trouble working up loads when they were doing the initial load development on their 224V factory ammo. The velocity difference between the two for the heavy match bullets was almost entirely due to their testing showing that in the 224V the higher speed proved detrimental to accuracy so they lowered the speed to meet their accuracy requirements. This is also why some other factory ammo was showing poor accuracy trying to hit the listed speeds.

They said it took 3 weeks to come up with just the match load for the 224V then they had to start all over for the Black load and then again for the Varmint load. Overall the cartridge was finicky to load for with very narrow nodes that shot well and were completely different from bullet to bullet.

Inversely it took them an hour to develop each load with the 22 ARC as it generally shot most of the loads well. They attributed this to the design of both the cartridge and the chamber working well together to allow for wide performance nodes.

It sounds like for those who have a 224V that shoots well there isn’t much benefit but for those of us who don’t have one or were turned away by poor reports of accuracy and lack of velocity with the 224V would be better off starting with the 22 ARC.

CMP70306 said:

They went over it in one of the podcasts, they had a lot of trouble working up loads when they were doing the initial load development on their 224V factory ammo. The velocity difference between the two for the heavy match bullets was almost entirely due to their testing showing that in the 224V the higher speed proved detrimental to accuracy so they lowered the speed to meet their accuracy requirements. This is also why some other factory ammo was showing poor accuracy trying to hit the listed speeds.

They said it took 3 weeks to come up with just the match load for the 224V then they had to start all over for the Black load and then again for the Varmint load. Overall the cartridge was finicky to load for with very narrow nodes that shot well and were completely different from bullet to bullet.

Inversely it took them an hour to develop each load with the 22 ARC as it generally shot most of the loads well. They attributed this to the design of both the cartridge and the chamber working well together to allow for wide performance nodes.

It sounds like for those who have a 224V that shoots well there isn’t much benefit but for those of us who don’t have one or were turned away by poor reports of accuracy and lack of velocity with the 224V would be better off starting with the 22 ARC.

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This is weird. I am a newer hand loader and maybe a little above average shooter. Just got an AR together in .224V. Had first range day with it last weekend. Not a single load I tried shot over an inch. So this sounds like marketing. Most were 0.5-0.7” at 100, and 1-1.2 at 200.

I started one grain below max with CFE-223 (25.5) and loaded to max (26.5) with 80gr bullets at 2.260” OAL. Used 80 Berger’s, 80.5 Berger OTM, and 80 ELDM. For fun I also used same powder and did 77 SMKs at 2.210” OAL.

Maybe I am just lucky as is is a Bartlien spun by CLE with a matching bolt. Was the first 60 rounds through the barrel. Going to test all of the 26.5gr loads next weekend over the chrono and shoot 4 groups of each to see. May play with some StaBall Match, 6.5 StaBall and Lever also.

But I am really interested in a 22ARC and 6ARC also. If only brass was available. Finally being able to consistently find .224V

JsnSanko said:

This is weird. I am a newer hand loader and maybe a little above average shooter. Just got an AR together in .224V. Had first range day with it last weekend. Not a single load I tried shot over an inch. So this sounds like marketing. Most were 0.5-0.7” at 100, and 1-1.2 at 200.

I started one grain below max with CFE-223 (25.5) and loaded to max (26.5) with 80gr bullets at 2.260” OAL. Used 80 Berger’s, 80.5 Berger OTM, and 80 ELDM. For fun I also used same powder and did 77 SMKs at 2.210” OAL.

Maybe I am just lucky as is is a Bartlien spun by CLE with a matching bolt. Was the first 60 rounds through the barrel. Going to test all of the 26.5gr loads next weekend over the chrono and shoot 4 groups of each to see. May play with some StaBall Match, 6.5 StaBall and Lever also.

But I am really interested in a 22ARC and 6ARC also. If only brass was available. Finally being able to consistently find .224V

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Well look at it this way, Hornady released a cartridge almost identical to one that was released just a few years ago but has overall not gained wide acceptance. So either there was something wrong with that cartridge or Hornady just dumped a shit load of time, money and effort into a dead market.

Bullet for bullet in the same barrel length in a SAAMI chamber at appropriate pressures you will see a lot of overlap in velocity between the two. I would say in general you can get 50-100fps more in the ARC in most cases, but it will really depend on the available powders, bullet weight/profile, barrel-to-barrel variation, etc. They are not drastically different from one another in terms of velocity, but a slight nod to the ARC.

That being said, I was around for the release of the 224 Valkyrie in 2018 and was helping Jayden and Seth try to find applicable powders for the 88gr Match load. We had 7 rifles/uppers from reputable builders and there was ONE powder that would reliably NOT produce 3-6 MOA results in some of the rifles. This was a notable departure from the norm for us and many weeks worth of work got devoted to looking into this. I've seen the same sentiment repeated by the general shooting public here, on ARFcom, Facebook, etc... The Valkyrie has a tendancy to be tempermental with the 85-95gr class bullets. We haven't seen that with the ARC. The throat geometry and balance of case/bullet proportions for a given C.O.A.L. falls in line with what we've already seen with the Creedmoors, PRC's, 6GT, and 6mm ARC.

JsnSanko said:

This is weird. I am a newer hand loader and maybe a little above average shooter. Just got an AR together in .224V. Had first range day with it last weekend. Not a single load I tried shot over an inch. So this sounds like marketing. Most were 0.5-0.7” at 100, and 1-1.2 at 200.

I started one grain below max with CFE-223 (25.5) and loaded to max (26.5) with 80gr bullets at 2.260” OAL. Used 80 Berger’s, 80.5 Berger OTM, and 80 ELDM. For fun I also used same powder and did 77 SMKs at 2.210” OAL.

Maybe I am just lucky as is is a Bartlien spun by CLE with a matching bolt. Was the first 60 rounds through the barrel. Going to test all of the 26.5gr loads next weekend over the chrono and shoot 4 groups of each to see. May play with some StaBall Match, 6.5 StaBall and Lever also.

But I am really interested in a 22ARC and 6ARC also. If only brass was available. Finally being able to consistently find .224V

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I started shooting 224V about 14 months ago. I have also had exceptional results. I shot sub-MOA with the factory 90Gr GMM. 2650 FPS from a 20" barrel. This is the round I compete with. I recently developed loads for 77SMKs; 80SMKs and 75 BTHPs. They all shoot Sub-MOA, however, I am not getting max velocity out of them because of pressure signs and Case Head Swipe. I recently went to the Winchester #41 primer and almost all of my pressure signs went away, so I will be going back to the drawing board on the 80SMKs next year to see what I can get from them. I have considered getting a Barltein CLE barrel. The last time I checked they were out of stock, and I wasn't sure if he would stock them again. I am happy to hear you are getting good results. In my opinion, the 224V in the AR platform is a game changer. I did a lot of research and understand why it got a bad wrap (barrel twist issues/Bullet jacket issues/chamber specs/finicky load development). If the 22 ARC does everything the 224V does and even a little bit better/not as finicky, then I expect it will be the nail in the coffin.

Yoteski said:

I’ve used those too!

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Me too

What's the velocity from an 18" for the 88gr ELD? Either way I've been waiting on this cartridge for a minute. Considering another mk12 in one. Hopefully Ruger offers it in the ranch rifle, will make the perfect truck gun.

22-250 performance in an AR15...not really. Their inflated velocity number is at or below minimum load data for the same bullet weight in 22-250.

T

OlsenG_360 said:

22-250 performance in an AR15...not really. Their inflated velocity number is at or below minimum load data for the same bullet weight in 22-250.

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Already went over this, comparing factory ammo to factory ammo the new 62gr bullet at 3300 fps from the 22 ARC closely matches the trajectory of a standard Hornady 55 VMax at 3680 fps from a 14 twist 22-250 while surpassing it in energy past 100 yards and trajectory at 550 yards.



If you want to load the heavier high BC bullets in a fast twist 22-250 then obviously that 30% greater case capacity will let you run away with it. That 62gr ELD-VT with a properly twisted 24” 22-250 barrel would probably get 3600+ fps with StaBall 6.5, the ARC can’t touch that nor is it designed to.

^^^ They're comparing standard factory options for both. Also, they're trying to get people to understand that "Performance" is much more than just muzzle velocity. In this case, they're saying that their 62 grain super bullet surpasses a standard factory 22-250 bullet in down-range velocity, energy on target, and wind deflection.

Now certainly if you have a 7 twist 22-250, you can launch that same 62gr bullet faster, but that's not a standard factory configuration for a 22-250.

Must be using Ron Spomer ballistics, compare two things nothing alike and cherry pick results. If downrange performance is where it shines, it starts losing to 6ARC by 600yd.

SupressYourself said:

^^^ They're comparing standard factory options for both. Also, they're trying to get people to understand that "Performance" is much more than just muzzle velocity. In this case, they're saying that their 62 grain super bullet surpasses a standard factory 22-250 bullet in down-range velocity, energy on target, and wind deflection.

Now certainly if you have a 7 twist 22-250, you can launch that same 62gr bullet faster, but that's not a standard factory configuration for a 22-250.

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I ran a similar comparison of 6 ARC to 240 Weatherby for my brother to show him how the 6 arc was a better choice for his uses. The 240 loses steam fast with the bullets they use/it was designed for.

OlsenG_360 said:

Must be using Ron Spomer ballistics, compare two things nothing alike and cherry pick results. If downrange performance is where it shines, it starts losing to 6ARC by 600yd.

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Right, comparing the factory ammo of the new varmint cartridge to the factory ammo of the gold standard varmint cartridge for the last 60 years is some how not a fair comparison. Whether you like it or not it is a fair comparison.

So here you go, here is a half dozen .22-250 varmint factory loads compared to the 22 ARC varmint factory load.



And here is them with a 300 yard zero. I also threw in the same 62gr bullet hot hand loaded in a .22-250 that requires a custom barrel.

CMP70306 said:

Right, comparing the factory ammo of the new varmint cartridge to the factory ammo of the gold standard varmint cartridge for the last 60 years is some how not a fair comparison. Whether you like it or not it is a fair comparison.

So here you go, here is a half dozen .22-250 varmint factory loads compared to the 22 ARC varmint factory load.

View attachment 8261305

And here is them with a 300 yard zero. I also threw in the same 62gr bullet hot hand loaded in a .22-250 that requires a custom barrel.

View attachment 8261311

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Sorry I didn't mean it's not fair. It's just not exactly an apples to apples comparison when completely different projectiles are used. I don't hate the 22ARC or anything, but their boast about 22-250 performance isn't quite right either when most people associate it with light varmint bullets and high velocity. Energy/trajectory are quite similar.

OlsenG_360 said:

Sorry I didn't mean it's not fair. It's just not exactly an apples to apples comparison when completely different projectiles are used. I don't hate the 22ARC or anything, but their boast about 22-250 performance isn't quite right either when most people associate it with light varmint bullets and high velocity. Energy/trajectory are quite similar.

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The different projectiles is the point and what makes the cartridge comparable to the 22-250. If they were shooting the same bullets then the 22-250 is just shooting the same bullet almost 400 fps faster.

But 90% of the 22-250’s out there are stuck with 12 or 14 twists and can only shoot the 60gr and under bullets. That gives the ARC the edge when comparing factory ammo.

It’s kind of like the 300 Win Mag vs the 300 PRC, with the same bullets they are pretty much identical but the issue is I can’t buy 225gr ELD-Ms loaded to 3.6” in the Win Mag like I can with the PRC. That being said I was already doing that which is why I don’t own a 300 PRC.

OlsenG_360 said:

Sorry I didn't mean it's not fair. It's just not exactly an apples to apples comparison when completely different projectiles are used. I don't hate the 22ARC or anything, but their boast about 22-250 performance isn't quite right either when most people associate it with light varmint bullets and high velocity. Energy/trajectory are quite similar.

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The reality is the 22-250 can’t be ran in a small frame AR. Which this cartridge was designed for. And you’re getting similar performance to factory ammunition offering. In a bolt gun with different reamers and reloads it’s not a comparison. But for it’s designed purpose it offers comparable Ballistics out of a small frame AR to factory 22-250 which is great.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

With all that being said, Hornady makes some of the worst bullets of any major manufacture. They are just cheaper and do more marketing than anyone else. Their factory ammo is nothing to be impressed by, especially at the prices they go for now. At $1/rd they were ok but once the price surpassed FGMM, L O L.

Luckily for the people at hornady who shoot and have passion, there are plenty of idiots and fudds out there to buy into their bullshit. Marketing works. Please keep buying Hornady and stay away from Berger and Sierra.

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I too am a Berger fanboi, but to make a blanket statement that Hornady is garbage, is just being a blowhard. A dude local to me just won our monthly PRS match, (70 or so shooters), with Factory 140g ELD-M in 6.5 CM.

These groups I shot a few years ago with Factory 140g AMAX rounds, at 200 yards. Blaming a lack of precision on the bullets is ignorant.

FOHA1 said:

I too am a Berger fanboi, but to make a blanket statement that Hornady is garbage, is just being a blowhard. A dude local to me just won our monthly PRS match, (70 or so shooters), with Factory 140g ELD-M in 6.5 CM.

These groups I shot a few years ago with Factory 140g AMAX rounds, at 200 yards. Blaming a lack of precision on the bullets is ignorant.

View attachment 8261854

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Sample size bias. You can pick the worst bullet ever made and somewhere somebody shot an amazing group.

Consistency is what matters and hornady has a long track record of making inconsistent bullets for precision applications as well as unbalanced bullets that blow up at a similar rpm that doesn't effect quality projectiles.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

Sample size bias. You can pick the worst bullet ever made and somewhere somebody shot an amazing group.

Consistency is what matters and hornady has a long track record of making inconsistent bullets for precision applications as well as unbalanced bullets that blow up at a similar rpm that doesn't effect quality projectiles.

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I shot Berger 215gr Hybrids in my 300 Win Mag, gave me 3/4 to 1 MOA groups. Switched to the 212gr ELD-X and 225gr ELD-M and it was 1/2 MOA or better.

That being said the 153.5 LRHT did shoot better than the 147 ELD-M in my 6.5 PRC so it’s a toss up.

CMP70306 said:

I shot Berger 215gr Hybrids in my 300 Win Mag, gave me 3/4 to 1 MOA groups. Switched to the 212gr ELD-X and 225gr ELD-M and it was 1/2 MOA or better.

That being said the 153.5 LRHT did shoot better than the 147 ELD-M in my 6.5 PRC so it’s a toss up.

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Group size is only one part of it. Could be your barrel. Could be lack of reloading skills/knowledge, could be a ton of things.

Bullet BC consistency is king. Hornady has shit consistency which is why they shoot like ass at longer ranges.

There is a reason you can always find Hornady bullets and ammo in stock. Its the last shit to sell out.

Either way, the 22arc is the best option to 22-250 performance in a AR15 platform, its got better performance and been well used for years (22 grendel) unlike the Valkyrie mess.
I’ve had a bolt gun Valkyrie since it came out, it’s conception was a mess! The accuracy issues, the chamber issues, the barrel twist arguments, the 90g smk bullet construction, the argument over what the 90g smk needed rifling twist wise……..endless issues it felt like(real bad in the ar15 platform), I went through it all! It maybe ironed out now but for some, me included, it was exhausting, expensive and frustrating trying to get accuracy out of the darn thing. Its been a dumpster fire like no other!
I’m glad hornady came out with something proven from wildcat guys(22 grendel)thats been used for years with quality brass available! Starline brass kept the Valkyrie alive, if it wasn’t for them coming out with brass it would’ve died long ago with the 22 nosler!

Honestly, the Hornady people that made the podcasts for 22ARC vs Valk. These guys have no idea how bad they look. They made a podcast with that title, and they talked simply about their "new" bullet design 62 gr match, versus their VMAX 60 gr.

They talked about how their "new" bullet is superior than their "existing" bullet. I could barely watch the video it was so insane.

Its SO EASY to make the case its a better choice than 224V. How could they fail so badly. I estimate, because they have no idea how to explain why its better, this cartridge is DOA, and will come to nothing, and is a total failure, even if its good. Its like me saying I like this version of a roast beef sandwich, and then me arguing its because I like Rye bread on it instead of wonder bread. But then all of you will call me nuts because you will just say use Rye on both? DUH? LOL These guys don't understand to test the new 62 grain bullet in both, THEN talk? They don't know that!

22-250 is an aweful, choice for AR platform. People are not lining up to have 22-250 AR10's. Its too heavy, and aweful. In order for any .224 bullet cartridge to be popular and widespread, it has to, by default, EASILY be adapted to work in an AR15. 22-250 is king of Bolt varmint gun and probably always will be until laser beam rifles come out.

Wonder bread is trash.

What to do? Which can be put into motion first?

22ARC
6Max

Dogtown said:

My guess is 20”

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I would say 24" I heard somewhere that it was industry standard..

Yoteski said:

Not ground breaking, but should be a fun little cartridge. Probably gonna have to spin one up eventually. Yes, I know the Valkyrie exists, but it's all but dead because of poor support originally from Federal. Was already thinking about doing a 22 BR, but having factory ammo with support from a company like Hornady will be excellent. View attachment 8255858

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Just a 22DPC ripoff

Jonathan Swift said:

Just a 22DPC ripoff

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Not really.

22 DPC = 6mm ARC necked down to 224 caliber

22 ARC = 6.5 Grendel necked down to 224 Caliber.

The shoulder on the 22 ARC is the same as the Grendel parent case, so about 30 thou further forward than on the 6ARC/22DPC. 22 ARC won't chamber in one of Kenny's 22DPC barrels, the DPC chamber is too short.

Bacarrat said:

So what does this do any better than the 224 Valkyrie? Other than being pimped out by Hornady.

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You need to buy one and find out for yourself. It's all subjective at best.

Looking at Hornady’s flyer, it states speeds at 52kpsi, albeit likely out of a 24” barrel.
62kpsi data for bolt guns should be interesting (even out of shorter barrels). Even more so given the full length Grendel case.

I don’t need another rifle, BUT COME ON HOWA MINI!!!!!

I just bought a CZ 600 Alpha with a 24" barrel and 1:7 twist for a .223 Thinking of having the barrel re-chambered to a 22ARC; feasible?
I also have a 6ARC that I really like. Also a 6.5 CM that's a great shooter. 22ARC should have me covered for those pesky Yote's.

It’d be a different bolt face.
I’ve never re-bolt-faced, but I suspect it’d be easier/cheaper to re-barrel a 6.5 Grendel.
I’m sure there are others here with a better qualified opinion.

The CZ has a super easy bolt face swap out.

Capt45 said:

I just bought a CZ 600 Alpha with a 24" barrel and 1:7 twist for a .223 Thinking of having the barrel re-chambered to a 22ARC; feasible?
I also have a 6ARC that I really like. Also a 6.5 CM that's a great shooter. 22ARC should have me covered for those pesky Yote's.

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223 bolt face is .378”, arc bolt face is .442

Not to mention the did away with the user swap and the barrels are now glued in or permanent or something post recall

Didn’t know that.
Maybe I need to look at a cz……

spife7980 said:

223 bolt face is .378”, arc bolt face is .442

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Keep up with the conversation Spife; I already stated that the bolthead/face is easy to switch.

Ronin22 said:

What to do? Which can be put into motion first?

22ARC
6Max

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The 22 ARC will stick around, 6 Max will fade into the abyss.

godofthunder said:

The 22 ARC will stick around, 6 Max will fade into the abyss.

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A fair statement. In the long run, next to the action a barrel is the least expensive part of the shooting metal parts. The most expensive metal things are bullets - by far.

So, Hornady comes out with what should be a killer 'yote round - and for an AR no less. What's not to like? Have an AR? Switch the barrel, bolt face and mag, or get a new upper and it's done. That's a winner in my book.