Woooooweeee that's edgy. Bet you're from Asheville, NC
- Thread starter KCode
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Woooooweeee that's edgy. Bet you're from Asheville, NC
OP is one of those people who don't know how to read ballistic charts, what BC is or is a boomer. 308 is for the dinosaurs. I have several 308s and it's very disappointing at longer ranges. lol
Well...
This has certainly been an entertaining thread to read....
This has certainly been an entertaining thread to read....
Shot thousands of rounds at 500-1000 yards with 6mm and 6.5mm, never shot a 308 past 200 yards.
One day I decide to play with my AX in 308 at 1K, ran the numbers spun the turret and let the first 175 Sierra fly.
I'm waiting and waiting and waiting, finally I see the impact in the dirt. I literly said outloud to myself "fuck is that slow". Comparing a 6/6.5mm to a 308 is like comparing a Corvette and a minivan, sure the minivan will get you there but when?
I was able to hit a 5" plate at 1K with the 308 a couple of times but it never came out to 1K again.
One day I decide to play with my AX in 308 at 1K, ran the numbers spun the turret and let the first 175 Sierra fly.
I'm waiting and waiting and waiting, finally I see the impact in the dirt. I literly said outloud to myself "fuck is that slow". Comparing a 6/6.5mm to a 308 is like comparing a Corvette and a minivan, sure the minivan will get you there but when?
I was able to hit a 5" plate at 1K with the 308 a couple of times but it never came out to 1K again.
For the distances I hunt (inside of 300) the 308 gives up nothing to the 6.5 Creedmoor. I have more ammo for it, I find it easier to get quality factory loads for and I don’t have to tell people I hunt with a 6.5 Creedmoor lol. Both are great and inside of 500 there’s not a lot of difference.
All other things being equal, a moon rover is the exact same as a honda civic because it has 4 wheels.... There's so little "other" stuff being equal that this argument doesn't really hold weight; at least for this discussion.
Simple fact is, the 6.5CM isn't the .308 Win.
Nor is the .308 Win the 6.5CM.
And that's why you need both.
Nor is the .308 Win the 6.5CM.
And that's why you need both.
Damn that guy, Sir Isaac Newton. p=mv. Momentum = mass*velocity. That being said, the shape of the projectile also has an effect. So, I don't depend on transfer of energy to necessarily do the job. I depend on surface area, which is best when the tip has mushroomed in petals. And that is usually a design feature of a particular bullet and velocity at impact.
So, which one works better for the job intended? 165 gr 308 at a slower speed? Or a 143 gr at a higher speed? Or do they equal? Depends a few factors.
I think the bigger calibers are more forgiving. They do plenty of good work at shorter range and slower speeds.
Someone else beat to my best punchline, though. The main reason for not getting a 6.5 CM is that you don't want to grow a manbun.
So, which one works better for the job intended? 165 gr 308 at a slower speed? Or a 143 gr at a higher speed? Or do they equal? Depends a few factors.
I think the bigger calibers are more forgiving. They do plenty of good work at shorter range and slower speeds.
Someone else beat to my best punchline, though. The main reason for not getting a 6.5 CM is that you don't want to grow a manbun.
A good shooter with a 308 is going to be better at longer distances and a bad shooter with a 308 is going to suck a little less with the 6.5.
At least the 6.5 shooter has their husband there to support them though
308 shooters are rebels
So you have a man bun, suck at reading wind and everyone should be gay. Got it.
Sincerely,
.260 master race
This is the answer. If you're not shooting past 500 or so, and never in strong winds, the difference is so negligible that having both is idiotic (said by a guy with two 308s and two 6.5 Creedmoors).
BUT having less rifles is never and option. So a couple of each it is.
BUT having less rifles is never and option. So a couple of each it is.
So you’re saying you’re gay for each other?
I shoot both 6.5 CM and 308 Win, but I only have 2, 6.5 CMs and 8 308 Win. It's all about what you want to compare...the 308 can easily beat the 6.5 CM with handloads compared to factory. 6.5s. I ran 17,000 matchoads in 308 out to 1400yds, with standard loads of the day, and it would hold half MOA. Today new powders and better bullets have changed things. The 6.5 CM works well with hybrid cases and RL 26 to run 150 SMK at 3000 fps. But most of the rest can be beat with a 308 Win, with some of my loads reaching over 3600 ft/ lb of energy in Lapua Brass, switch to hybrid csses and go to 3800 ft/ lbs.
Depends on how you set the 308 up, I've gone to 8 and 9 twist, for .715 to .823 BC ...unavailable in 6.5. So without my hybrid cases for the 6.5 CM the 308 has more performance, available, and a bunch of more energy.
I use neither for hunting...I've only used large magnums for all game, for about 50 yrs. Unless it's varmints then the 308Win and 222.
Here is a 6.lb 3oz 16" 308 AR 10 with more energy and much better accuracy than my heavy 24" AR 10 in 6.5CM weighing 12 lb. The
little 308 win hit 2900 fps with some 155s and 2756 fps from the 168 eldm from a 16" barrel a 6.5 CM 16" will not do the same.
So it all depends on if you are a fairly advanced handloader, do your own gunsmithing, alot of things are possible to really increase the output of the 308 case. But for the average guy or non handloader the 6.5 CM is a good option...better depends on what you're doing. I personally have no problem choosing the 308 Win over the 6.5 CM. Back in the day I went 8000rds before changing out barrels, the 308 has cheap components, and ammo can be found everywhere, even on the ground. If I want lighter than the 308 for targets I go for the 6 mm. But I also have a new barrel for one of the 6.5 CMs haven't given up on it yet, but its low on the list of of my cartridges. Got rid of the 7 mm, cutting down on some building others...it's what we do. Whatever works for you...
Depends on how you set the 308 up, I've gone to 8 and 9 twist, for .715 to .823 BC ...unavailable in 6.5. So without my hybrid cases for the 6.5 CM the 308 has more performance, available, and a bunch of more energy.
I use neither for hunting...I've only used large magnums for all game, for about 50 yrs. Unless it's varmints then the 308Win and 222.
Here is a 6.lb 3oz 16" 308 AR 10 with more energy and much better accuracy than my heavy 24" AR 10 in 6.5CM weighing 12 lb. The
little 308 win hit 2900 fps with some 155s and 2756 fps from the 168 eldm from a 16" barrel a 6.5 CM 16" will not do the same.
So it all depends on if you are a fairly advanced handloader, do your own gunsmithing, alot of things are possible to really increase the output of the 308 case. But for the average guy or non handloader the 6.5 CM is a good option...better depends on what you're doing. I personally have no problem choosing the 308 Win over the 6.5 CM. Back in the day I went 8000rds before changing out barrels, the 308 has cheap components, and ammo can be found everywhere, even on the ground. If I want lighter than the 308 for targets I go for the 6 mm. But I also have a new barrel for one of the 6.5 CMs haven't given up on it yet, but its low on the list of of my cartridges. Got rid of the 7 mm, cutting down on some building others...it's what we do. Whatever works for you...
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Sure, but I bet there was a bit of luck there. If you gathered 100 good shooters how many would you think could repeat that?
Half moa from a 308 at 1400 yards?
Well if 6.5 fans are gay, I think he just came out of the closet.
About 30 to 50%.
The very best 308 shooter in the world who has has won the PRS season and finale the last 2 years in a row, will shoot about 85% at best of the match winner when he is at the top of his game. Consider he is one of the 2 AMU shooters (not counting gosset who is not a "prs AMU" team guy but works for AMU and is one of the best in the world as well.) and the other one just won the whole season/finale. That means the very best shooters in practical rifle ranges with smallish targets there is about a 15% hit difference. Both are what you would call Proffesional PRS shooters, they are paid to compete and train people. That is their job. That is Hit% based on what the winner is, not total targets. He ran away with the finale the last 2 years so when you look at an average shooter, that number drops to like a 40-50% hit difference and with pretty good but not great shooters, probably closer to 30%.
So a 6.5CM (or similar) is going to give a good shooter a 30% hit increase, an average shooter more like 50%, and most shooters are average/shitty shooters. As the distances increase, the delta between the two will increase as well.
The smooth brains still won't understand whats being put down but maybe some of the ones with room temp IQ's might.
The very best 308 shooter in the world who has has won the PRS season and finale the last 2 years in a row, will shoot about 85% at best of the match winner when he is at the top of his game. Consider he is one of the 2 AMU shooters (not counting gosset who is not a "prs AMU" team guy but works for AMU and is one of the best in the world as well.) and the other one just won the whole season/finale. That means the very best shooters in practical rifle ranges with smallish targets there is about a 15% hit difference. Both are what you would call Proffesional PRS shooters, they are paid to compete and train people. That is their job. That is Hit% based on what the winner is, not total targets. He ran away with the finale the last 2 years so when you look at an average shooter, that number drops to like a 40-50% hit difference and with pretty good but not great shooters, probably closer to 30%.
So a 6.5CM (or similar) is going to give a good shooter a 30% hit increase, an average shooter more like 50%, and most shooters are average/shitty shooters. As the distances increase, the delta between the two will increase as well.
The smooth brains still won't understand whats being put down but maybe some of the ones with room temp IQ's might.
I shot .308 in high level competition including National and World Championships, with great results for many years. This is the best explanation I have seen. The 6.5 bullet is far better than the .308 bullets when launched from same case. Plus the 6.5 has far less recoil. I know guys will have loads that push envelope in 308, like I do but I am talking SAMI length and pressure ammo
I tell new shooters but the 6.5 Creedmoor instead of the .308. It’s just easier
I tell new shooters but the 6.5 Creedmoor instead of the .308. It’s just easier
This is the best explanation I was talking about
I took my 16in DTA Covert with factory 175 FGMM to 1000 yards multiple times (although 900 was a much easier distance)
I also took my 22.5in 223Rem SAC DTA kit with 75 and 80 ELD-M that far as well. On a day without too much wind, it's actually not that hard.
I have shot my .556 to 1200 yards many times but it’s far easier with a .308 and easier still with a 6.5 Creedmoor
Just to pull the pin on a grenade and drop it into this conversation:
If the .mil was hell bent on going 6.5mm to replace 7.62 NATO, They would have adopted .260 Remington...
Same case, don't have to invest in a bunch of new tooling to manufacture brass cases, just neck them down vs. a completely new case.
The old chamber reamers can be resharpened / modified from 7.62 to 6.5 and not have to throw the old ones away.
If the .mil was hell bent on going 6.5mm to replace 7.62 NATO, They would have adopted .260 Remington...
Same case, don't have to invest in a bunch of new tooling to manufacture brass cases, just neck them down vs. a completely new case.
The old chamber reamers can be resharpened / modified from 7.62 to 6.5 and not have to throw the old ones away.
6.5 Creedmoor works better than 260 in the semi auto platforms and SA magazine rifles the military currently uses. The 260 is superior in LA rifle magazines but not the current issue weapons
The 260 was an evolutionary step towards the Creedmoor. I shot one in PRS type comps in the early 2000’s
The creedmoor was designed in part by a top USMC shooter. It works very well
Jesus….. this shit again???
The people who actually shoot people for a living are already using 6.5cm and other calibers suited to the role. What big army or dod uses for small arms is almost irrelevant. It's the least casualty producing weapon on the battlefield , soldiers have garbage marksmanship training and tools, and the cost to change is not worth it. What the military is using has zero relevance on the efficacy and benefit to competitive shooters and LR shooters.
Anytime someone brings up what the military is using in these types of discussions you instantly know they have no fucking idea what they are talking about.
Anytime someone brings up what the military is using in these types of discussions you instantly know they have no fucking idea what they are talking about.
It’s 2023 and we are still doing this. Feel like I’m in a Time Machine
It doesn’t fucking matter shoot what you want.
Walmart has both, there’s cheap shitty brass of both, there’s good stuff of both, the ammo for both is everywhere
You’re gonna miss because you suck either way.
Everything sucks and so does 6 dasher
It doesn’t fucking matter shoot what you want.
Walmart has both, there’s cheap shitty brass of both, there’s good stuff of both, the ammo for both is everywhere
You’re gonna miss because you suck either way.
Everything sucks and so does 6 dasher
I don’t ever understand why people always bring up what the military uses or is thinking about using, who gives a shit.
Usually military picks up what competitors are doing ten years later. The police then need another twenty to catch on
That’s from my experience
Funny Tubb tried 260 in SR25 back around 2000. Then guys started modifying the 308 case further and further. Then 6.5 Creedmoor was born
As retired cop I don’t see cops changing to 6.5 anytime soon because engagement distance is so much shorter and so far the bullets for 6.5 have not been as good as glass penetrators as the best 308 bullets. Unless I missed something?
That would be 200 grains or better for a similar BC from what I could find quickly. Haven't seen a .308 case that drives a 200 grain bullet 2800fps.
Fella at the class I went to was chucking 170s about that fast.
What app is that super?
I didn't realize they still made 308 ammo, besides you don't wanna join the crowd that stuffs their balls in their sock to avoid tripping do you?
I can push 155's faster than that but they don't have the BC of most 140 6.5 bullets.
Amen, twin brother from another mother.
Just like the guys who say they don't need or want a 7 PRC because they are doing just fine with their 7 RM. And have another tab open to their favorite online retailer pricing a 7 PRC and entering their FFL info. Why?
Because it is cool and if everyone was going to be a fudd and say, "I don't need anything other than my .30-06," we would not be having this thread. The 6.5 CM came about for specific reasons. Turns out it is also okay to hunt medium game. But, being a smaller caliber and less mass, one needs to be more precise in the use of it.
You can bring down a moose with two shots from a 6.5 CM and I have seen it done.
Or shoot a .300 WM and know that it is going down.
Or, do like my friend, John. Hunt across a draw with a .50 cal black powder muzzleloader. You don't have to worry about "doing my part" or "all day long." Just be close and be a sneaky bastard. .50 cal goes through things and petal spread or not, it is like a shotgun slug. It will make a hole that does not close and does not stop bleeding.
(John passed away some years ago. RIP.)
The M1 Garand was originally offered to the U.S. Army in 276 Pederson, which I understand to be a .284” cartridge.6.5 cm ain’t never won no wars.
General MacArthur, the Chief of Staff of the Army at the time, preferred to use the leftover 30-06 ammunition from World War I, so the Garand was rebuilt for that cartridge.
Check out Hatcher’s Notebook for more information.
-Stan
Look asshole, we were having a nice beatdown and then you drag the 30-30 into this.
Shut your whore mouth and think about what you did.
To complete my troll why 308 > 6.5 (beyond manbun)
Berger doesn't make a 6.5 Juggernaught, so if you are shooting 6.5 Creed and someone asks you what bullet, you can never answer "juggies"
mmmmmmm juggies.
Excellent post. And I have been on both sides of it. So many years ago, I read an article and I misunderstood it. The article was a loving review of a new semi-auto 7.62 x 51 mm NATO. It was mentioned that it was favored by the military, especially for sniper use because it could still bring down a 200 pound target at 600 yards. That is why I initially chose .308 for a rifle.
Someone else learned me real good. That was not the reason. The reason was contract competition. It just happens that the .308 can do some things similar to the .30-06 in a shorter action and shorter barrel and the push was on to have that. Not because it was superior. Impact performance was a distant secondary consideration. We are at the mercy of fudds.
And I have grown up around the military but did not know this. I have known both a Ranger and a SEAL. Of course, their jobs were not as snipers.
That being said, reading books written by actual snipers that served, one carried an SR-25 (7.62 NATO) and another carried the .300 WM.
These were a-tips if I’m not mistaken.
308 is for UT Longhorn fans, no down range performance. 
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