AMP really worth the extra $$$$$$

sounds like the AMP is favored due to ease of set up, which is awesome. Sounds like there’s also conversation of the AMP performing a better anneal.

I work at a moderately sized metallurgy shop. Our lab has micro hardness evaluation capabilities. If anyone wants to send a virgin pc of brass, flame annealed piece, and induction annealed piece… I can have our lab manager do a midwall hardness punch on each. Just for shits and giggles to see if there’s a big difference. The hardest part would be obtaining the same temperature with both the flame anneal and induction anneal. 20 degree variance can make a huge difference in hardness.

Another shits and giggles would be 3 pcs of flame annealed and 3 pcs of induction annealed and see the variance within each category. I’m willing to bet the induction anneal would be more consistent in hardness, but would flame anneal be “good enough” to not worry about.

Also, if anyone has metallurgy work needed around Houston, let me know…. Biden economics is a bitch right now

Kfive73 said:

sounds like the AMP is favored due to ease of set up, which is awesome. Sounds like there’s also conversation of the AMP performing a better anneal.

I work at a moderately sized metallurgy shop. Our lab has micro hardness evaluation capabilities. If anyone wants to send a virgin pc of brass, flame annealed piece, and induction annealed piece… I can have our lab manager do a midwall hardness punch on each. Just for shits and giggles to see if there’s a big difference. The hardest part would be obtaining the same temperature with both the flame anneal and induction anneal. 20 degree variance can make a huge difference in hardness.

Another shits and giggles would be 3 pcs of flame annealed and 3 pcs of induction annealed and see the variance within each category. I’m willing to bet the induction anneal would be more consistent in hardness, but would flame anneal be “good enough” to not worry about.

Also, if anyone has metallurgy work needed around Houston, let me know…. Biden economics is a bitch right now

Click to expand...

10 pieces of each tested for not only results but consistency would be cool

Of course it has to be 30 total from the same manufacturer and lot to truly get a comparison

Kfive73 said:

sounds like the AMP is favored due to ease of set up, which is awesome. Sounds like there’s also conversation of the AMP performing a better anneal.

I work at a moderately sized metallurgy shop. Our lab has micro hardness evaluation capabilities. If anyone wants to send a virgin pc of brass, flame annealed piece, and induction annealed piece… I can have our lab manager do a midwall hardness punch on each. Just for shits and giggles to see if there’s a big difference. The hardest part would be obtaining the same temperature with both the flame anneal and induction anneal. 20 degree variance can make a huge difference in hardness.

Another shits and giggles would be 3 pcs of flame annealed and 3 pcs of induction annealed and see the variance within each category. I’m willing to bet the induction anneal would be more consistent in hardness, but would flame anneal be “good enough” to not worry about.

Also, if anyone has metallurgy work needed around Houston, let me know…. Biden economics is a bitch right now

Click to expand...

PM me your address and I'll send a sample of whatever you want. one batch done on Giraud, one done on AMP and you can compare

I agree 30 of each would be ideal. But that would be 90 pieces of brass destroyed just to see results (30 virgin, 30 flame, 30 induction). Which I doubt anyone would want to sacrifice. That would also be 360 punches (one in each quadrant of each piece) and I don’t think I could get away with that much from the boss man.

It can get out of hand quickly with samples….

Kfive73 said:

I agree 30 of each would be ideal. But that would be 90 pieces of brass destroyed just to see results (30 virgin, 30 flame, 30 induction). Which I doubt anyone would want to sacrifice. That would also be 360 punches (one in each quadrant of each piece) and I don’t think I could get away with that much from the boss man.

It can get out of hand quickly with samples….

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10 of each. 30 total is what I meant. You’d need at very least 5 each to get any repeatable results between the methods

Ok gentlemen, I’m going to cut a piece of brass tonight, mount and punch tomorrow as a test. Our current software is set up for carburized case depth evaluation (which is much harder than what the brass would be)… if I don’t have to mess with any program parameters, and secondofangle2 is still interested, I can run some hardness punches on brass

It's really around $1,800, because to me it's completely worthless if I have to feed them by hand and wait one at a time.

I can set the Annealeze, load the hopper, and listen to them drop while I'm doing other operations. Yes, it takes a few minutes more to set it up, but then it just runs. The AMP mate (another $450) is the only way I'd jump, and you could have two flame units for the price of just that.

I consider fire my ally. I am not afraid of it.

New AMP released at SHOT. They are saying March shipping. Has touch screen and able to store settings in database.

So, if looking to purchase, might want to wait a little

No price on new AMP yet

Kfive73 said:

Ok gentlemen, I’m going to cut a piece of brass tonight, mount and punch tomorrow as a test. Our current software is set up for carburized case depth evaluation (which is much harder than what the brass would be)… if I don’t have to mess with any program parameters, and secondofangle2 is still interested, I can run some hardness punches on brass

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Yeah just PM me your address, I’ll set up some 308 or 223 cases and send however many you want and you can scrap them after

Fig said:

It's really around $1,800, because to me it's completely worthless if I have to feed them by hand and wait one at a time.

I can set the Annealeze, load the hopper, and listen to them drop while I'm doing other operations. Yes, it takes a few minutes more to set it up, but then it just runs. The AMP mate (another $450) is the only way I'd jump, and you could have two flame units for the price of just that.

I consider fire my ally. I am not afraid of it.

Click to expand...

Someone makes a feeder for the quick annealer too, or you can use other case feeders you may have already (like Dillon). I’ve only seen videos on it.

secondofangle2 said:

No price on new AMP yet

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what is the purpose of annealing? I am a very experienced reloader, and I can get 10 firing out of my Lapua brass without issue (which is beyond the life span of my barrel and I throw the brass away before it's ruined). I have shot sd under 5 using brass with 6+ firings. I understand what the science behind the brass alignment and flow state that AMP achieves - but I do not understand how it would help my shooting?

I had played around with am annealeaz and still have one but I quit using it a long time ago when I started to read the AMP science they were publishing, since I believe the flam annealers can only do more harm than good.

It’s just one more thing to try and ensure consistency from this firing to the next.

Neck tension is the most important thing for consistent ammo imo. The best way to achieve consistency in that department is an amp. Not to mention the other benefits to brass that come along with annealing.

Simonsza1 said:

Neck tension is the most important thing for consistent ammo imo. The best way to achieve consistency in that department is an amp. Not to mention the other benefits to brass that come along with annealing.

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I agree if annealing helps at all the AMP is the only one that could successfully anneal brass. I went and re-read some of their research. I didn't see any testing showing ES and SD against non-annealed brass. Which is the first thing I would have done, so that's kind of weird. They mostly cite the longevity of brass and increased consistency in sizing due to less springback.

I agree that the "flow state" seems to help bounce back from their testing. I'm just not sure that actually means the ammo will shoot better. Are there any annealing services that use an AMP? I'd like to test 100 annealed vs non-annealed lapua that are 5 firings in.

This is my last outing with my 300 win mag - 5x fired lapua brass never annealed.

12 shots (including cold bore):
Avg: 2639
SD: 6.2
ES: 23

Here is a comparison of Peterson 7prc. Both are virgin brass and both have been put through the same mandrel/size/trim process. The only difference is one is the factory anneal and the other has been run through an amp. It's a very small sample size. But have seen this trend with most any virgin brass.....the factory anneal isn't consistent.

Now, the conversation becomes "does that matter" which requires much more data to come to a conclusion.

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

Here is a comparison of Peterson 7prc. Both are virgin brass and both have been put through the same mandrel/size/trim process. The only difference is one is the factory anneal and the other has been run through an amp. It's a very small sample size. But have seen this trend with most any virgin brass.....the factory anneal isn't consistent.

Now, the conversation becomes "does that matter" which requires much more data to come to a conclusion.

View attachment 8331359

View attachment 8331360

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Seating force does not equate to sd and es. Ive loaded on force gauge in-lines for a while on my f class setup and im very confident in that statement from my own testing and not having seen any research to suggest otherwise. This also only tells me that new Peterson brass can benefit from annealing for a more consistent seating force. I'm more curious about fire-formed loads and their potential benefits. not hating on you providing what you have but that doesn't tell me anything about performance when fired.

I did just buy the AMP book I would like to see the rest of their research. I 'm not hating on the amp, but I want to see some hard data before I buy and start using it (I realize the majority of serious reloaders use them, and they are very commonly accepted).

Did Litz test the amp?

Maurygold said:

Seating force does not equate to sd and es. Ive loaded on force gauge in-lines for a while on my f class setup and im very confident in that statement from my own testing and not having seen any research to suggest otherwise. This also only tells me that new Peterson brass can benefit from annealing for a more consistent seating force. I'm more curious about fire-formed loads and their potential benefits. not hating on you providing what you have but that doesn't tell me anything about performance when fired.

I did just buy the AMP book I would like to see the rest of their research. I 'm not hating on the amp, but I want to see some hard data before I buy and start using it (I realize the majority of serious reloaders use them, and they are very commonly accepted).

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And others have reported they have been able to correlate SD and precision to seating force from AMP. Lou Murdica has reported such in his tunnel.

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. Certain things make the AMP graph show something that makes a difference, and other things show something on the graph that don't make a difference.

Unfortunately, we'll likely never see the other side of their testing. As it likely provides insight into the IP that would be much more detrimental to their business than beneficial.

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

And others have reported they have been able to correlate SD and precision to seating force from AMP. Lou Murdica has reported such in his tunnel.

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. Certain things make the AMP graph show something that makes a difference, and other things show something on the graph that don't make a difference.

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does anyone besides the guy selling the AMP say this? I ordered his book so I'm not excluding his opinion but I mean if he's the only one and it cuts square against the several thousand rounds I've personally tested that's gonna be a tough one for me to get on board with without any other supporting research.

I thought it was pretty well established and accepted that properly annealed brass helps with the following:

- consistency of the interference fit of the bullet, thus the release of the bullet.

- the sizing of the brass and how consistent it is case to case.

- how the evenly and consistent the case expands in the chamber, resulting in more even velocity. (Not sure how much this one is actually accepted as true)

- brass life

I honestly haven't gotten into the weeds on annealing and what had been tested and proven beyond what I've read here over the years, so I may have given some of this more credence than I should have. Interested to hear more on these items though.

Maurygold said:

does anyone besides the guy selling the AMP say this? I ordered his book so I'm not excluding his opinion but I mean if he's the only one and it cuts square against the several thousand rounds I've personally tested that's gonna be a tough one for me to get on board with without any other supporting research.

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Yeah I can understand that position for sure. So, with your SD and ES on your non annealed brass, how many rounds did you or do you normally include in each string or group when you got those SD/ES numbers? I see 12 for what you posted but you obviously have done it for a while so I'm just curious how many shots you normally include to get those numbers or the lower 5sd you mentioned.

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

And others have reported they have been able to correlate SD and precision to seating force from AMP. Lou Murdica has reported such in his tunnel.

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. Certain things make the AMP graph show something that makes a difference, and other things show something on the graph that don't make a difference.

Click to expand...

I was wrong they did to some testing of ES and SD. https://www.ampannealing.com/articl...7vdBkqCR2JLJ1tILAZ7SUuimWTLJyWRKEVA6G5K6EiDVM

Vertical MOA doesn't make sense to me as a metric to test the effectiveness of the AMP but SD and ES do. In half of the testing the ES goes down without annealing - how could that be if annealing works so well and work hardening leads to innacuracy?

He shot up to 20 rounds without annealing? is it really necessary?

The slope of the graphs is important - the change from annealing is not absolute and some guns either barely change in slope from annealing or actually improved from not annealing. (the article doesn't state but I'm willing to bet the loads were developed on annealed brass since the ES was lower on those to start despite the slopes not being consistent)

BuildingConceptsllc said:

Yeah I can understand that position for sure. So, with your SD and ES on your non annealed brass, how many rounds did you or do you normally include in each string or group when you got those SD/ES numbers? I see 12 for what you posted but you obviously have done it for a while so I'm just curious how many shots you normally include to get those numbers or the lower 5sd you mentioned.

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That group is on my 300 win mag proof barrel. But I was shooting a lot of f class at the time I was testing seating force so 25 round groups (I was averaging 5-8 SD)

Maurygold said:

I was wrong they did to some testing of ES and SD. https://www.ampannealing.com/articl...7vdBkqCR2JLJ1tILAZ7SUuimWTLJyWRKEVA6G5K6EiDVM

Vertical MOA doesn't make sense to me as a metric to test the effectiveness of the AMP but SD and ES do. In half of the testing the ES goes down without annealing - how could that be if annealing works so well and work hardening leads to innacuracy?

He shot up to 20 rounds without annealing? is it really necessary?

The slope of the graphs is important - the change from annealing is not absolute and some guns either barely change in slope from annealing or actually improved from not annealing. (the article doesn't state but I'm willing to bet the loads were developed on annealed brass since the ES was lower on those to start despite the slopes not being consistent)

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I'll have to look at it again, it's been a while since I've read their findings.

However, ES is a fairly bad metric to be using. They took all these data points and then only used two data points per string to evaluate their performance. I'd be much more interested in SD over large samples.

Maurygold said:

That group is on my 300 win mag proof barrel. But I was shooting a lot of f class at the time I was testing seating force so 25 round groups (I was averaging 5-8 SD)

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Well that's pretty dang great for a real 25 round group. if I were you I'd keep doing whatever I was doing

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

I'll have to look at it again, it's been a while since I've read their findings.

However, ES is a fairly bad metric to be using. They took all these data points and then only used two data points per string to evaluate their performance. I'd be much more interested in SD over large samples.

Click to expand...

ES is a better metric for this comparison -Lou chose the metric and you seem to support his other testing. You can't have a low sd with a high ES - but I don't really want to argue stats over whether the amp is actually worth it.

You could also get the sd of these groups if you really wanted since they gave you es and avg so you know the speeds.

BuildingConceptsllc said:

Well that's pretty dang great for a real 25 round group. if I were you I'd keep doing whatever I was doing

Click to expand...

I'd have never gotten there if I wasn't constantly asking what if, so I can't stop now.

Maurygold said:

You can't have a low sd with a high ES

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Ah....actually, I think you can. LARGE data set....all data points identical except for two....one to the high side and one low side. Going to have great SD with crap for ES.

I'm not an f-class shooter, I claim no particular expertise, but SD seems to be a far, far more valid and valuable metric to determine quality/consistency of ammunition

Maurygold said:

ES is a better metric for this comparison -Lou chose the metric and you seem to support his other testing. You can't have a low sd with a high ES - but I don't really want to argue stats over whether the amp is actually worth it.

You could also get the sd of these groups if you really wanted since they gave you es and avg so you know the speeds.

Click to expand...

I didn't see anywhere in there that said who decided to use ES. Though I might have missed it. Typically in tests like this, they decide to use a metric like ES because so many shooters use it. It's far easier to just use a metric shooters believe they understand, then to attempt to properly change their understanding.....when the point is to show your product works and to sell said product.

And you definitely need to revise your understanding of how SD and ES work.

I can show you examples of two 100 shot strings where both have 5-7sd. One will have an 80es and the other will have a 40es and the 80es is more consistent ammunition. Using small sample size + ES is a very good way to not actually know what's going on.


(there's a reason you don't see anyone in any other industry using ES)

okay a couple issues here:

1. the author chose the plots because he created them from the raw data he had available (as I stated above could have easily used SD since he had the velocities)
2. you just said you don't see anyone in the industry use ES (but also said many shooters use ES - that does not make sense)
3. Unless you are using very large samples sd does have a relationship with ES
4. SD is great when looking at large samples - ES is best for these small comparison groups because we are looking at culling outliers (why your example required a 100 shot size group to hide the ES)
5. Regardless of you trying to argue outlier stats you can't show me ANY testing where annealed brass consistently performed better than non-annealed brass, can you? (SD or ES)

Baron23 said:

Ah....actually, I think you can. LARGE data set....all data points identical except for two....one to the high side and one low side. Going to have great SD with crap for ES.

I'm not an f-class shooter, I claim no particular expertise, but SD seems to be a far, far more valid and valuable metric to determine quality/consistency of ammunition

Click to expand...

it does - in large sample sets. here we are trying to compare several small sample sets so the outliers are more important to me than the sd.

Maurygold said:

it does - in large sample sets. here we are trying to compare several small sample sets so the outliers are more important to me than the sd.

Click to expand...

The issue with big outliers is that it stands to reason that there is some other variable that caused the outlier, and that it's not representative of the variable we are trying to evaluate.

BuildingConceptsllc said:

The issue with big outliers is that it stands to reason that there is some other variable that caused the outlier, and that it's not representative of the variable we are trying to evaluate.

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If you had a large dataset that’s absolutely true. We’re looking at sets of 10-20 so I don’t think there’s enough sampling to discard any data by just looking at sd. The author seems to agree since he only looked at es and not sd when he could have easily given it

I'll preface my thoughts by stating that people have successfully annealed with other cheaper alternatives for decades.

What the AMP does better than others is the following:

1. No messing around with open flames
2. Consistent annealing every time (don't have to worry about propane pressure or other factors)
3. Many presets so you can find a program for your specific brass. No need to guesstimate with tempilaq

The AMP is plug and play. You are paying for consistency and ease of use. I anneal every reload, but I personally probably wouldn't anneal if I didn't have an AMP.

kthomas said:

I'll preface my thoughts by stating that people have successfully annealed with other cheaper alternatives for decades.

What the AMP does better than others is the following:

1. No messing around with open flames
2. Consistent annealing every time (don't have to worry about propane pressure or other factors)
3. Many presets so you can find a program for your specific brass. No need to guesstimate with tempilaq

The AMP is plug and play. You are paying for consistency and ease of use. I anneal every reload, but I personally probably wouldn't anneal if I didn't have an AMP.

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I agree the amp is the only reasonable solution to actually annealing brass. I'm questioning whether we have any data that actually supports it increasing accuracy in any way (I would accept accuracy over time w/ multiple firings but their own data suggests you see improved accuracy over multiple firings WITHOUT annealing and the slope graphs don't indicate the AMP improves performance over time consistently)

Maurygold said:

I agree the amp is the only reasonable solution to actually annealing brass. I'm questioning whether we have any data that actually supports it increasing accuracy in any way (I would accept accuracy over time w/ multiple firings but their own data suggests you see improved accuracy over multiple firings WITHOUT annealing and the slope graphs don't indicate the AMP improves performance over time consistently)

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That I don't know.

I think that would be dependent on the processes of the individual.

You can make very good ammo with torch based annealers, it just requires more user input and attention. You don't need an AMP to make better ammo, it's just more plug and play/convenience, IMO.

I have an amp and it is a great, well designed and manufactured tool. It does what I need very well with no hassle. Yes - I still have my old Giraurd when I need to just anneal(ish) a bunch of 5.56 as I can just load the hopper and let it go. The Amp is a much better tool in my experience.

As usual, it only took a few posts for the poors to get all indignant and defensive...

Yo , What the hell do I know I'm still using original once fired 1942-68 recycled LC and SL .30 Cal. in My Garands . Original 1942 cases reloaded now have #28 firings without a single case loss . All loaded within 1 grain Max charge . Annealed every #3 Rd. firing .

Everyone is entitled to opinion and expenditure . Mine runs cases perfectly as well as automatically ,set for particular case rack and stack ,fire up and move along doing other prep while it runs . I did make several adjustments and modifications to mine ,as the stock unit didn't suit my needs or ease of operation . Each to there own and as we are only restoring ductility to the case neck and shoulder ,it makes zero difference too the case which method one chooses . One can't tell by looking which are Lapua and which are Lake City ,as the witness marks are identical 0.591" from case mouth down shoulder . Is exactly WHY I tweaked MY anneal-er ,so as to match ductility as closely as possible . Mine is repeatable on all CF Rile cartridges I reload for and that's more than #12 . Now whether using propane ,acetylene or Mapp gas , torch selection is crucial as is angle as well as distance flame engages case shoulder out towards neck . I don't do 90 Deg. engagement more like 60 Deg. as it keeps heat in upper portion of the case ,rather than allowing body dissipation . My Bases Never exceed 225 Deg. F and necks see 1K-1200 Deg. F.

Also why I choose ultrasonic cleaning ( on the right ) over pin tumbling or vibratory polishing , because it WORKS Better and is far quicker .

Bottom line as long as one is annealing or restoring ductility ,matters little on how it's done ,induction or flame Your choice .

Herb Stoner said:

I have an amp and it is a great, well designed and manufactured tool. It does what I need very well with no hassle. Yes - I still have my old Giraurd when I need to just anneal(ish) a bunch of 5.56 as I can just load the hopper and let it go. The Amp is a much better tool in my experience.

As usual, it only took a few posts for the poors to get all indignant and defensive...

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No poors here. Just asking real questions about whether there is proof to support the claims that annealing has demonstrable benefit.

Maurygold said:

No poors here. Just asking real questions about whether there is proof to support the claims that annealing has demonstrable benefit.

View attachment 8331596

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I think you're asking fair questions.

Personally, I don't think you buy an AMP because you get better downrange performance than say a Giraud or Benchsource. You buy an AMP for the ease and convenience that it translates to when annealing. Any performance benefits is secondary, IMO.

kthomas said:

I think you're asking fair questions.

Personally, I don't think you buy an AMP because you get better downrange performance than say a Giraud or Benchsource. You buy an AMP for the ease and convenience that it translates to when annealing. Any performance benefits is secondary, IMO.

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the amp is only annealer I would use. But I currently don't anneal and my questions are really only to anneal (with amp) vs. not to anneal at all.

Maurygold said:

the amp is only annealer I would use. But I currently don't anneal and my questions are really only to anneal (with amp) vs. not to anneal at all.

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Maury, I would be glad to anneal some brass on my amp for you if you want to set up a trial with your rifle etc so you can control variables. I would just need to make sure I have the pilot necessary for your caliber.

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

And others have reported they have been able to correlate SD and precision to seating force from AMP

Click to expand...

I've done so with permutations of lube/no lube, mandrel/no mandrel, and there was a correlation between seating force SD and muzzle velocity SD.

I'll be doing more testing at some point, but it's a bit tedious.

By the way, interesting comparison of factory annealing. I'm happy to do the same with a larger sample size, given I've got a crap-ton of forming coming up where I just don't care about performance. First run I'll be doing 100 total 6 BR >> 6 BRA and probably 50 300 PRC cases, so that's a decent enough sample size for each. I'll chrono everything too, though all of this will be through new barrels, so that screws with stuff a bit.

Rocketmandb said:

I've done so with permutations of lube/no lube, mandrel/no mandrel, and there was a correlation between seating force SD and muzzle velocity SD.

I'll be doing more testing at some point, but it's a bit tedious.

By the way, interesting comparison of factory annealing. I'm happy to do the same with a larger sample size, given I've got a crap-ton of forming coming up where I just don't care about performance. First run I'll be doing 100 total 6 BR >> 6 BRA and probably 50 300 PRC cases, so that's a decent enough sample size for each. I'll chrono everything too, though all of this will be through new barrels, so that screws with stuff a bit.

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testing through a barrel with less than 200 rounds is not testing. the litz data is very clear that sd and es are highly variable through break-in.

kthomas said:

You buy an AMP for the ease and convenience that it translates to when annealing. Any performance benefits is secondary, IMO.

Click to expand...

Agree 100% How much grief we get for saying something like this...

Maurygold said:

testing through a barrel with less than 200 rounds is not testing. the litz data is very clear that sd and es are highly variable through break-in.

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I think I said that. Not the point of the test.

ACard said:

Maury, I would be glad to anneal some brass on my amp for you if you want to set up a trial with your rifle etc so you can control variables. I would just need to make sure I have the pilot necessary for your caliber.

Click to expand...

I appreciate that. I will definitely take you up on that and I am happy to post the results whatever they are. II'd be willing to buy a pilot if you don't.

Y’all send me some cases, i’ll anneal half on my AMP half on Giraud, code them w a sharpie (randomly) and send them back and you can see if you can figure out which is which when you seat (or shoot) your bullets