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Ruger SFAR small frame 308, 6.8 pounds

doubloon said:
It's a good question, and fair. @BCP summed it up.



Can't explain it, it's the same for some others, I wish I was one of the lucky ones.



This and some glowing testimonials from formerly trusted sources is what pulled me in from the beginning.

Now that I'm in, I'm just trying to make it better with minimal investment and without making the base weight significantly heavier.

Agree with everything on @MinistryOfTruth 's laundry list of things that could be better. I don't have quite the same level of vitriol for the trigger guard, it's basically the same as the trigger guard on Aero lowers ... hmm ... so maybe they are still copying things. I am on the fence about the buffer tube, I don't have the numbers in front of me but IIRC it's longer than a carbine but shorter than a rifle ... another odd duck.
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For sure everybody gets, and has their own opinions to share.

And lots of people will change over 50% of the parts on anything they ever buy - just to make theirs "different" than stock - regardless of what they started with. They knew they were going to change the parts before they ever took delivery or shot it. That's what keeps the aftermarket parts manufacturers in business. Same deal with every Jeep or Bronco or Camaro or Mustang that's ever been sold.

Guns are no different.
Sometimes manufacturers leave some room for aftermarket.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
Its an A5/AR10 buffer tube that has had an AR15 buffer weight fitted. Got done measuring it all today for a replacement.
Click to expand...

Hunh ... that would explain it ... never built an AR10 before and I never measured the original tube on the DPMS because it just worked out of the box.

To @MadDuner 's observation, I did end up swapping out the gas block, grip, stock and LPK on it for some "upgrades" but most of that was aesthetic, the gas block was for optimizing suppressor function. And, yes, I would eventually replace some stuff on the SFAR as well but I would liked to have started with a platform functioning to my expectations which aren't really all that demanding.
 
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Went into the gun store and looked at their other 6.5 SFAR. They let me take it apart and look at it.

It was worse than mine. I didn't think that was possible. With the bolt closed all the way, you could thump the upper against the wood workbench and it wouldn't move at all. once it did unlock it stuck in like 10 places on the way out of the upper.

And it made a sound like nails on a chalkboard the whole time. If you could hook a sawzall up to the bolt carrier group and run it at speed it would sound like an angle grinder on cast iron.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
Went into the gun store and looked at their other 6.5 SFAR. They let me take it apart and look at it.

It was worse than mine. I didn't think that was possible. With the bolt closed all the way, you could thump the upper against the wood workbench and it wouldn't move at all. once it did unlock it stuck in like 10 places on the way out of the upper.

And it made a sound like nails on a chalkboard the whole time. If you could hook a sawzall up to the bolt carrier group and run it at speed it would sound like an angle grinder on cast iron.
Click to expand...
Ministry of truth ok
 
The internet man you can say anything and its ahhh.
 
Aint never seen a bolt stop 10 time's when it ain't chambering a fricking round man be believable man for christ sake.
 
MadDuner said:
I am beginning to wonder which Ruger competitor manufacturer you work for...
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Or will be shilling for, if not already. That kind of shit is everywhere on the net theses days. The main reason I and Many many others don't believe any reviews anymore. If you look at the track record of a mfg then all the replies from some, its easy to grasp who should be turning in a 1099, because of.
 
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Gunfighter14e2 said:
Or will be shilling for, if not already. That kind of shit is everywhere on the net theses days. The main reason I and Many many others don't believe any reviews anymore. If you look at the track record of a mfg then all the replies from some, its easy to grasp who should be turning in a 1099, because of.
Click to expand...
Or....sometimes a manufacturer puts out a hunk of shit. Consistently, across many many many examples of said gun.

Just say it. "The SFAR is perfect, Ruger got it right. MinistryOfTruth is just a paid liar."

And what I want is for ruger to spend ONE more dollar on machining this thing, and to get their gas block the hell off the rail system so their gun can kick the crap out of the competition. Like they did with the Ruger Precision Rifle. The Gen1 was a hunk of shit, and then they listened and the later gens are very hard to beat for the money.
 
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Ruger makes a product to a price point, and was successful. I think they were generally more concerned with function, unsuppressed, than accuracy or refinement. It comes in under $1k and generally works fine with M80 ball. I spent a weekend on a line of 16 SFARs and saw few malfunctions.

The problem is that it’s one of the more viable small frame 308 platforms out there now, and so we set out to optimize. The Superlative gas block goes a long way towards tuning function.

My problem is that there aren’t many loads that shoot to an high accuracy standard. I wonder if a barrel upgrade would improve the situation. Anyone making an aftermarket tube yet?
 
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Not_A_Llama said:
Ruger makes a product to a price point, and was successful. I think they were generally more concerned with function, unsuppressed, than accuracy or refinement. It comes in under $1k and generally works fine with M80 ball. I spent a weekend on a line of 16 SFARs and saw few malfunctions.

The problem is that it’s one of the more viable small frame 308 platforms out there now, and so we set out to optimize. The Superlative gas block goes a long way towards tuning function.

My problem is that there aren’t many loads that shoot to an high accuracy standard. I wonder if a barrel upgrade would improve the situation. Anyone making an aftermarket tube yet?
Click to expand...
A few smiths will take your SFAR extension off and chamber a new barrel for it. If I can get mine to smooth out some more I may take one of them up on it and see how it does with a Bartlein.

My plan this week is to take the existing handguard off and toss it and that will let me check the fit between the barrel and the upper. Some have said it was quite loose and might benefit greatly from shimming. I got a new pile of shim stock in to try it out if mine is loose.

I'm hoping to keep the factory barrel as its contour is pretty decent for a light gun like this and at least the example on mine scopes reasonably well. Its accuracy has been slowly working in the more I shoot it.
 
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Not_A_Llama said:
Ruger makes a product to a price point, and was successful. I think they were generally more concerned with function, unsuppressed, than accuracy or refinement. It comes in under $1k and generally works fine with M80 ball. I spent a weekend on a line of 16 SFARs and saw few malfunctions.

The problem is that it’s one of the more viable small frame 308 platforms out there now, and so we set out to optimize. The Superlative gas block goes a long way towards tuning function.

My problem is that there aren’t many loads that shoot to an high accuracy standard. I wonder if a barrel upgrade would improve the situation. Anyone making an aftermarket tube yet?
Click to expand...
What kind of accuracy standard would anybody hope to reach with one?

So far, the LC M118 175gr stuff has worked very well for me at .7MOA with me shooting it.
A good shooter would obviously do better.

None of the M80 147gr rounds have been anywhere close through it,
with LC M80 being 1.6MOA,
Malaysian M80 being 1.8MOA,
and Saltech M80 being 2.0MOA.
Again, with me shooting it.

I haven't tried to suppress mine yet, but swapping out a gas block to make that work would be the same thing as any other rifle.
 
MadDuner said:
What kind of accuracy standard would anybody hope to reach with one?

So far, the LC M118 175gr stuff has worked very well for me at .7MOA with me shooting it.
A good shooter would obviously do better.

None of the M80 147gr rounds have been anywhere close through it,
with LC M80 being 1.6MOA,
Malaysian M80 being 1.8MOA,
and Saltech M80 being 2.0MOA.
Again, with me shooting it.

I haven't tried to suppress mine yet, but swapping out a gas block to make that work would be the same thing as any other rifle.
Click to expand...
I hope mine reaches the same place yours does one day.

I didn't find a round the 6.5CM liked really. On mine the factory rail/factory gas block didn't move in any direction when you pushed on it because there was no space whatsoever between the two. AKA the barrel wasn't free floated at all my gas block was in hard contact with the rail system. Simply changing the gas block changed my elevation zero by 5 mils.

I have one group that was 1.0035 moa or something after changing the gas block out and I'd for sure live with that if that's where it stays.
 
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MadDuner said:
What kind of accuracy standard would anybody hope to reach with one? .... suppress mine yet, but swapping out a gas block to make that work
Click to expand...

For the planned use I'd be happy with ~2 MOA or better. I'll probably never shoot it at anything smaller than a hog or farther than 200 yards. Last time I shot it in the real out to a little shy of 200 yards it was basically infinite MOA and in no particular direction. I *think* with the suppressor on it the clamp-on block was contacting the bottom of the guard ... when I got it home the space between the block and the guard was literally about a business card thickness.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
I agree. I just wish that ruger upgraded their build quality and machining to something better. Like PSA levels.

Especially since there are parts of the gun that are excellent. Enough that it could be legendary...but its not. The Bolt/carrier for example is very good. I'm still shooting my barrel in and it seems to be getting a little better each range trip....so there probably isn't anything terrible going on there.

But my upper's critical operating surfaces are a hunk of shit. And the gas key's contact points with said upper surfaces might as well be a hand file. The inside of my buffer tube looks like it was cut with a lawnmower. The extra $1.00 to provide an Ambi charging handle was too much.
Click to expand...
If someone like ADM, GAP, LaRue, MSTN, Noveske, SLR Rifleworks, Seekins, Precision Firearms, 2A Armament, SilencerCo, etc. made the receivers and handguards using the BCG and barrel extension, it would be a work of art.

It would also be 3x the price.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
I hope mine reaches the same place yours does one day.

I didn't find a round the 6.5CM liked really. On mine the factory rail/factory gas block didn't move in any direction when you pushed on it because there was no space whatsoever between the two. AKA the barrel wasn't free floated at all my gas block was in hard contact with the rail system. Simply changing the gas block changed my elevation zero by 5 mils.

I have one group that was 1.0035 moa or something after changing the gas block out and I'd for sure live with that if that's where it stays.
Click to expand...
It’s not to the same place my RPR is.
But I don’t have any reason to expect it to either.
I’ll take it Saturday and sight it in with a different scope.
I’ll use the same batch ammo, so I will expect the same results.
 
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Southernspeed said:
It’s kind of odd that mine is shooting/ functioning well now but the gas must be off judging by the wear at the front of the election port!View attachment 8332008
Click to expand...
So it took a week or so but Ruger called me today about this damage and said their tech suggested sending me an H3 buffer.
I already run a heavy buffer, and any heavier is just brutal recoil so I guess I’ll just have to spend more money on it and play with the gas system. It’s operating just fine now and is .75 moa at 800 yards but there is obviously an issue here.
 
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Southernspeed said:
I already run a heavy buffer,
Click to expand...
H2?

Glad they did more than just cycle a box through it and send it back saying "wurks fur me".

If an H3 buffer is good for you then why isn't it good for everybody?

Wonder if they actually tried it or if it's just a take two aspirin and call me if it ka-booms kind of answer.
 
doubloon said:
H2?

Glad they did more than just cycle a box through it and send it back saying "wurks fur me".

If an H3 buffer is good for you then why isn't it good for everybody?

Wonder if they actually tried it or if it's just a take two aspirin and call me if it ka-booms kind of answer.
Click to expand...
No I didn’t even send it to them. I just told them what was happening, included the photo I posted here and was offered the H3 ( think I’m already that heavy or more, have to check)
 
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doubloon said:
H2?

Glad they did more than just cycle a box through it and send it back saying "wurks fur me".

If an H3 buffer is good for you then why isn't it good for everybody?

Wonder if they actually tried it or if it's just a take two aspirin and call me if it ka-booms kind of answer.
Click to expand...
My notes say I’m on 6.3oz already. H3 is 5.7??? Back to the gas system 😕
 
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LRRPF52 said:
If someone like ADM, GAP, LaRue, MSTN, Noveske, SLR Rifleworks, Seekins, Precision Firearms, 2A Armament, SilencerCo, etc. made the receivers and handguards using the BCG and barrel extension, it would be a work of art.

It would also be 3x the price.
Click to expand...

Southernspeed said:
My notes say I’m on 6.3oz already. H3 is 5.7??? Back to the gas system 😕
Click to expand...
Still on factory gas?
 
Southernspeed said:
So it took a week or so but Ruger called me today about this damage and said their tech suggested sending me an H3 buffer.
I already run a heavy buffer, and any heavier is just brutal recoil so I guess I’ll just have to spend more money on it and play with the gas system. It’s operating just fine now and is .75 moa at 800 yards but there is obviously an issue here.
Click to expand...

It could be the extractor or ejector causing weird ejection patterns too.

If I were to buy one I'd immediately get different handguards and gas block.
 
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BCP said:
It could be the extractor or ejector causing weird ejection patterns too.

If I were to buy one I'd immediately get different handguards and gas block.
Click to expand...
Yeah I’m going to strip the bolt and check the ejectors. Someone mentioned that the holes could get jammed up.
 
Southernspeed said:
My notes say I’m on 6.3oz already. H3 is 5.7??? Back to the gas system 😕
Click to expand...
That recoil spring is a bit of a monster compared to the spring in my DPMS ... heavier and longer.

Southernspeed said:
Yeah I’m going to strip the bolt and check the ejectors. Someone mentioned that the holes could get jammed up.
Click to expand...

May have been me, I mentioned I had that problem with one of the ejectors. Ended up bending the spring trying to get it out of the hole.
 
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MadDuner said:
What kind of accuracy standard would anybody hope to reach with one?

So far, the LC M118 175gr stuff has worked very well for me at .7MOA with me shooting it.
A good shooter would obviously do better.

None of the M80 147gr rounds have been anywhere close through it,
with LC M80 being 1.6MOA,
Malaysian M80 being 1.8MOA,
and Saltech M80 being 2.0MOA.
Again, with me shooting it.

I haven't tried to suppress mine yet, but swapping out a gas block to make that work would be the same thing as any other rifle.
Click to expand...
I’d be happy with those results. I think they’re atypical. Mine is about 1.5-2x worse on almost every count.
 
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Not_A_Llama said:
I’d be happy with those results. I think they’re atypical. Mine is about 1.5-2x worse on almost every count.
Click to expand...
Mine throws factory ammo all over the landscape, pretty crazy really. It’s taken hand loading to get accuracy ( in mine, others have varying results! 😁)
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
Its an A5/AR10 buffer tube that has had an AR15 buffer weight fitted. Got done measuring it all today for a replacement.
Click to expand...
It's not an A5, but is close, about 1/8 " shorter. You can make an A5 work, but you really should install a spacer inside to avoid battering your bolt stop or possibly cause the gas key to strike against the lower.
Since I felt the bcg had a lot of end shake (for lack of a better term..open the halves and wiggle the bcg...it moves more than I'm used to...likely because of the shortened gas key) I was worried about carrier tilt, so wanted to replace it with one that has extended ears around the buffer retainer. I ended up getting a POF tube which is just a hair shorter, but backed it off one turn and it fits great. I might try an A5 and shim on my other SFAR though.
 
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interesting for sure. im putting an scs ar15 in there with an a5 spacer and ar10 scs buffer piece. I’ll measure the exact stop point on the factory setup and see if that spacer is needful.
 
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Well, I got it to calm down a lot. Turns out the pads on the bolt carrier look good...but they aren't. a drag with a stylus shows that they are quite rough and the finish is deceiving.

I spent a half hour working them with papers and cloth and the end result removed most of the objectionable friction from the action area. Now I'm left only with the buffer tube.

I think its an a5 tube that was cut on a mill to be about 1/8 shorter. Anyone know what length spring is in there? I'm feeling lazy lol. AR10 carbine spring or maybe a rifle spring? Its pretty damn stout on my example.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
Well, I got it to calm down a lot. Turns out the pads on the bolt carrier look good...but they aren't. a drag with a stylus shows that they are quite rough and the finish is deceiving.

I spent a half hour working them with papers and cloth and the end result removed most of the objectionable friction from the action area. Now I'm left only with the buffer tube.

I think its an a5 tube that was cut on a mill to be about 1/8 shorter. Anyone know what length spring is in there? I'm feeling lazy lol. AR10 carbine spring or maybe a rifle spring? Its pretty damn stout on my example.
Click to expand...
I used a Tubbs flat wire. I wouldn’t say it was any less stout but it ‘felt’ different. I think it was just their AR15 spring. I’ll see if I have any paperwork later.
 
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MinistryOfTruth said:
Anyone know what length spring is in there? I'm feeling lazy lol.
Click to expand...

I posted this somewhere else when I was looking at the spring and the tube.

LR-308 spring is ~11.5" with 28 coils stuffed in about a 7" tube
(I swapped out the original tube with the A2 stock for something collapsible before you educated me on AR10 tubes ... still works fine)

SFAR spring is ~13.5" and 39 coils stuffed in about a 7.5" tube

The wire diameter is the same for both at ~0.071"

I made a crude scale with some PVC and the SFAR spring took (IIRC) about 1.5 times more weight to compress down to approximately the length of the buffer tube. I'll see if I can find the actual poundage somewhere even though the scale was Jerry rigged and barely sciencey.
 
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308 springs are much more stout than AR15. Flatwire will "feel" a bit softer than your average coil spring but they supposedly have more weight in battery pound for pound. My 716i came with a flatwire spring and I replaced it with an extra power spring from griffin which is noticeably stronger.
 
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doubloon said:
I am on the fence about the buffer tube, I don't have the numbers in front of me but IIRC it's longer than a carbine but shorter than a rifle ... another odd duck.
Click to expand...
The internet says it’s just an Armalite/VLTOR A5 length tube. Not “mil spec” but certainly not unusual.
 
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hlee said:
The internet says it’s just an Armalite/VLTOR A5 length tube. Not “mil spec” but certainly not unusual.
Click to expand...

The Internet is wrong.
Shown is a Dark Hour Defense A5 and a SFAR tube compared. Lines on dowel to compare internal depth.
As I've stated several times, the A5 is longer...5/32in externally and internally. The closest match to the SFAR is POF's Rogue/Revolution tube (maybe a tube thread shorter....and considering their design parameters..not surprising).
Again, I'm sure you could make an A5 work...but just be aware that they are not directly interchangeable
 

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Here's the POF and Ruger tubes compared. The Ruger is marginally longer...maybe 1/16". Not taking this one out of the package...but I bought 2 and my other one is on my SFAR and working well.
 

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And a group pic. A5, Ruger, POF (in descending order of length
 

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AXMC said:
the A5 is 5/32 in longer...externally and internally.
Click to expand...

Worth noting to be technically correct.

I'm not sure how much 1/8" impacts functionality since the A5 tube is longer and less likely to bottom out ... but I am certainly no expert.

I might be more leary of a shorter tube than a longer one.
 
BCP said:
308 springs are much more stout than AR15. Flatwire will "feel" a bit softer than your average coil spring but they supposedly have more weight in battery pound for pound. My 716i came with a flatwire spring and I replaced it with an extra power spring from griffin which is noticeably stronger.
Click to expand...

Yeah, IIRC the spring in my LR-308 was shorter and stouter than the standard rifle spring in my AR-15 and it took a couple three more pounds to compress the LR spring to tube length than the AR spring.

But the SFAR spring was a beast compared to both.
 
doubloon said:
Yeah, IIRC the spring in my LR-308 was shorter and stouter than the standard rifle spring in my AR-15 and it took a couple three more pounds to compress the LR spring to tube length than the AR spring.

But the SFAR spring was a beast compared to both.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's partly why I'd worry about the longer tube with no spacer. AR10's and Blowback PCC's in particular are known to shear bolt stops over time if there's too much of a gap (between the bottomed out bolt and the back of the bolt stop)...so with the SFAR's extra heavy spring (and potentially a heavy buffer if you add one like I did) and too much of a head start...you might run the risk of breaking the proprietary bolt stop (which you can replace with a lighter duty AR-15 or a modified AR-10 stop...but still a situation I'd avoid)
 
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A properly functioning rifle should have the bolt carrier press back slightly upon the buffer when the upper is closed. You can watch this occur as you close the upper. The buffer should never touch the buffer retainer, except when the upper receiver is open…
 
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hlee said:
A properly functioning rifle should have the bolt carrier press back slightly upon the buffer when the upper is closed. You can watch this occur as you close the upper. The buffer should never touch the buffer retainer, except when the upper receiver is open…
Click to expand...

I agree, but not sure how that's relevant...I'm talking about the BOLT stop.
 
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AXMC said:
I agree, but not sure how that's relevant...I'm talking about the BOLT stop.
Click to expand...
It’s relevant because I can’t read… 🤣🤦🏻‍♂️

That said, you can adjust how much “over travel” your carrier experiences by dropping a quarter (or 2) into the bottom of the receiver extension.
 
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hlee said:
It’s relevant because I can’t read… 🤣🤦🏻‍♂️

That said, you can adjust how much “over travel” your carrier experiences by dropping a quarter (or 2) into the bottom of the receiver extension.
Click to expand...

Yeah, as an easily available spacer, a couple quarters should be pretty close.
 
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MadDuner said:
What kind of accuracy standard would anybody hope to reach with one?
Click to expand...

Not a dig, I just happened to be looking for a piece of SFAR information today and some of the results that bubbled up are from other forums (texashuntingforum for one) where some people are experiencing similar issues reportong 1.5-2.5 MOA as "good" accuracy for their SFAR and some saying they get better results with factory ammo than handloads.
 
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