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Well, 3.5 years and +/- 14000 rounds later, I think my .22 mag gave up the ghost.

JAS-SH

JAS-SH

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 5, 2020
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I first posted about this CZ 457 .22 Mag rifle here on July 5/2020. It has shot great until last month. As of last month it started spitting a single shot 3 or more inches away from 3/4 to 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. It does it most all the time now and in somewhat random directions (1 to 5 o'clock)....

Did some rough but mostly accurate math and being a bit conservative the Lilja straight contour barrel has ~14,000 shots through it, 99% of those being 30 grain varmint bullets from CCI and Hornady clocked at an average of 2272 FPS...

I clean the rifle normally every time I shoot it. This morning was different. I woke up and headed straight for coffee and then the work bench. Took the whole thing apart down to the last screw - barrel off and complete bolt disassembly, etc.

Cleaned everything with degreaser and re-oiled everything that needs to be. Then re-torqued everything. The barrel face where it meets the action was pretty awful - a mix of oil/grease and carbon. It's a hard place to clean without taking off the barrel. That said, the rifle went down hill around a month ago.

Now that it's all cleaned up I will shoot it as soon as it stops blowing 18-25 down here, if ever :rolleyes:. If it doesn't change and still spits shots, either the action or the barrel is toast.

CORRECTION: My math was off. Not much of a difference but honesty first is a big part of my life.
The CZ action indeed has around 14,000 rounds. The Lilja barrel on the rifle has around 13000 rounds.
I counted the rounds on the original CZ barrel in the 14,000 estimate. My apologies.
 
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I'd want to run a borescope through it and check for wear just forward of the leade.
Slugging the bore would determine if there was a major loose spot there.
It is possible for a rimfire chew up the rifling after a large number of rounds fired.
Never fired large quantities of 22wmr, no idea of the expected barrel lifespan.

CZ 457 so it may be a mechanical issue caused by loose fasteners...check for unwanted movement.
 
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JAS-SH said:
I first posted about this CZ 457 .22 Mag rifle here on July 5/2020. It has shot great until last month. As of last month it started spitting a single shot 3 or more inches away from 3/4 to 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. It does it most all the time now and in somewhat random directions (1 to 5 o'clock)....

Did some rough but mostly accurate math and being a bit conservative the Lilja straight contour barrel has ~14,000 shots through it, 99% of those being 30 grain varmint bullets from CCI and Hornady clocked at an average of 2272 FPS...

I clean the rifle normally every time I shoot it. This morning was different. I woke up and headed straight for coffee and then the work bench. Took the whole thing apart down to the last screw - barrel off and complete bolt disassembly, etc.

Cleaned everything with degreaser and re-oiled everything that needs to be. Then re-torqued everything. The barrel face where it meets the action was pretty awful - a mix of oil/grease and carbon. It's a hard place to clean without taking off the barrel. That said, the rifle went down hill around a month ago.

Now that it's all cleaned up I will shoot it as soon as it stops blowing 18-25 down here, if ever :rolleyes:. If it doesn't change and still spits shots, either the action or the barrel is toast.
Click to expand...
Best of luck chasing the demon. Definitely good on ya for getting out there and running that thang. Let us know how it shakes out.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Barbarosa said:
It may be a bad lot of ammo.
Click to expand...
Didn't think about the ammo - Thanks! You might be onto something here. If true then there's nothing I
can do about it.

Here's why ammo might be it:

I tested the rifle yesterday after putting it back together. Used new Hornady ammo. It spit one shot out of 20, which is better but not historically (nothing over 1.5-inches). I was running the chronograph and found the round that the rifle "spit" out.

.22 magnum is not the most accurate cartridge - that's well known. With that in mind, this particular rifle is not too bad - a consistent 1/2" gun at 50 yards - minute of squirrel head. So, my expectations have always been150% larger 5-shot groups at 100 yards - so 1.5 inches max with slightly more than a 1-inch average. That has always been the case until last week, when it went to 2-inches plus.

Here is the target from yesterday with an arrow pointing at the spit shot. That turned the group to 2.2 inches.

i-qx8BTCz-L.jpg


I looked at the chrono and it reported a speed of minus 169fps from the average!. I had seen some high spread numbers with the rifle before but that's 3-times larger.

Then I tried a new lot from CCI and found another one on the first 10-shots. Seems .22 Magnum ammo quality is getting quite worse.
 
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Do you use it as a target rifle or hunting rifle? Just curious. Most folks don't shoot a 22 Mag that much at targets and that is a lot of rounds for a hunting rifle.
 
RTH1800 said:
Do you use it as a target rifle or hunting rifle? Just curious. Most folks don't shoot a 22 Mag that much at targets and that is a lot of rounds for a hunting rifle.
Click to expand...
I have but I rarely hunt anymore. I use this rifle mainly as a trainer. That's why it has a high round count. It's a lot cheaper to shoot this than centerfire when working on fundamentals. And I work on that a lot.

I obviously shoot it a lot but I've tried to keep it in really good shape with regular maintenance.
 
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This is a bit of an aside… 22mag ammo is less consistent that 22lr ammunition- and there are no equivalent “match” offerings. 22mag recoil is not substantially greater than 22lr. What does 22mag bring to the table (for fundamentals training) that cannot be had in the 22lr?
 
What hlee said...22wmr cartridges are made by CCI/Speer, Winchester, Aguila, Armscor, S&B and RWS.
Remington, Norma, Federal and FiocchiUSA are relabeled CCI. Browning is relabeled Winchester.
Not even the RWS made cartridges are manufactured to be precision paper punching cartridges.
Offhand, center of critter out to 75 yards is what it's useful for. Not punching center on paper.
Muzzle velocity differences, seating depths/angle variations, crimp tensions and brass anomalies are not unusual.
Strays and outliers are expected, and are normal, for a rimfire hunting cartridge.
 
hlee said:
This is a bit of an aside… 22mag ammo is less consistent that 22lr ammunition- and there are no equivalent “match” offerings. 22mag recoil is not substantially greater than 22lr. What does 22mag bring to the table (for fundamentals training) that cannot be had in the 22lr?
Click to expand...
Cost, Safe storage and shooting at 100 yards.

Already had the .22 Mag so I repurposed it. I believe that 30 grain VMAX .22 Mag rounds @ 2200 fps are a bit better in the wind than .22 match ammo at 100 yards.

I have no issues with a .22 - I've considered a .22 - all I would need is the barrel. But have you tried to buy Match .22 ammo lately - specifically Lapua?
 
JAS-SH said:
Cost, Safe storage and shooting at 100 yards.

Already had the .22 Mag so I repurposed it. I believe that 30 grain VMAX .22 Mag rounds @ 2200 fps are a bit better in the wind than .22 match ammo at 100 yards.

I have no issues with a .22 - I've considered a .22 - all I would need is the barrel. But have you tried to buy Match .22 ammo lately - specifically Lapua?
Click to expand...
I suspected a part of the equation was "the rifle that I have."

Yeah, the match 22 ammo "scene" kinda sucks. And, it seems that Lapua low key discontinued my favorite- CenterX. And, $20 per box for 22lr is getting into the territory where I'll just shoot 223rem. That said, CCS SV holds 1MOA out to 100 yards from the rifles that I shoot it from, and I am happy enough with that for plinking, kid's shooting, and general range trips. The bullet being blown around in the wind is a + for a trainer rifle...
 
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hlee said:
...The bullet being blown around in the wind is a + for a trainer rifle...
Click to expand...
This is very, very true,

That said I don't consider wind a "fundamental". Wind overrides fundamentals, hiding what happens at the the rear end of the system - mistakes made at the rifle end. The system is the rifle, the shooter and the positions. For learning this you need light winds, else you wont ever see your fundamental mistakes.

That's why I have worked so hard on this for the past 3-years and 14,000 rounds. I have progressed a lot. If there is no wind and I aim at a small spot at 100 yards (1/4 MOA) I should hit it. If it's a miss, it's my fault. If it's a big miss, it's not. Sorry that I don't have a better way to explain that.

The short of it, thanks to the thousands of rounds on the .22 mag I know when it's me, the wind, or the rifle. Proven with my much more accurate centerfire rifle

When you look closely at the targets I posted above notice how many shots are in the center 1/2 inch of the targets. That's at 100 yards and in a 10mph ESE - almost a full wind. For this particular rifle I call that a win. Fundamentals first. For that you really need little or no wind. Everything else comes later.
 
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Yeah22nag may not be the most accurate, BUT he has noticed a Falling off of accuracy from what he has seen in Basically 3 cases of ammo. realistically the barrel is now a senior citizen and most likely nearing it’s retirement date. Other areas to look at are springs and firing pin. Good luck with it, it has served you well!
 
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Chrono while shooting and see if the velocities correlate to what you are seeing on the target.
 
BisSilent said:
Chrono while shooting and see if the velocities correlate to what you are seeing on the target.
Click to expand...
+1 chrono the ammo, and borescope.

also, check the expected barrel life for the caliber. 2200 fps isn't trivial MV and there is going to be more heat/fouling than 22lr.
Edit:
Factory powder was increased to a max of 7.0gr and 2165 fps.
Click to expand...
Barrel life calculator shows:
±80k round barrel life at 7.0gr powder @ 24,000 psi for .224 cal bore.
 
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14k rounds ? No way that barrel is blown out yet. Ive seen rimfires (22lr) do 100k rounds and still shoot accurate.

Check your ammo. As mentioned by a few, lot to lot changes, and mag is not known to be tight accuracy.
 
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BisSilent said:
Chrono while shooting and see if the velocities correlate to what you are seeing on the target.
Click to expand...
I did. And it does. See this comment I posted down thread above - the spitter was -169 FPS slower than the average velocity of all shots.

www.snipershide.com

Well, 3.5 years and +/- 14000 rounds later, I think my .22 mag gave up the ghost.

I first posted about this CZ 457 .22 Mag rifle here on July 5/2020. It has shot great until last month. As of last month it started spitting a single shot 3 or more inches away from 3/4 to 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. It does it most all the time now and in somewhat random directions (1...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
iceng said:
14k rounds ? No way that barrel is blown out yet. Ive seen rimfires (22lr) do 100k rounds and still shoot accurate.

Check your ammo. As mentioned by a few, lot to lot changes, and mag is not known to be tight accuracy.
Click to expand...

Apples and oranges... Yes, the .22 mag is a rimfire cartridge. But, it is quite different from the .22LR and more similar to small bore centerfire cartridges. The caliber is different (.224), it uses copper jacketed bullets (not lubricated bullets) and the varmint rounds are 1300 fps faster than .22LR target rounds.

Dan Lilja, the maker of my barrel explains it well here in the link below. Other articles I've read on the subject seem to agree that required accuracy for the task, bore diameter and shots fired without cooling are the most important wear metrics, and the first one is subjective.

Dan's take on the subject from where I quote:

"The best life can be expected from the 22 long rifle (.22 LR) barrels with 5000-10,000 accurate rounds to be expected."

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.co...barrel-last-dan-lilja-offers-some-guidelines/
 
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I have barrels with far more rounds than 10,000 that out shot the two new Lilia barrels I had fitted. Only two rimfire barrels I trashed.
😂😂

Otherwise I agree with your post.
 
JAS-SH said:
I did. And it does. See this comment I posted down thread above - the spitter was -169 FPS slower than the average velocity of all shots.

www.snipershide.com

Well, 3.5 years and +/- 14000 rounds later, I think my .22 mag gave up the ghost.

I first posted about this CZ 457 .22 Mag rifle here on July 5/2020. It has shot great until last month. As of last month it started spitting a single shot 3 or more inches away from 3/4 to 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. It does it most all the time now and in somewhat random directions (1...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
Click to expand...
So it's probably shit ammo???
 
:sneaky: According to the internet, it's not the ammo, y'er rifle just doesn't like that brand. :oops:

According to the folks that take the time to inspect, compare and chronograph their cartridges,
the 22wmr is bulk hunting ammunition intended for offhand use, not benchrest precision paper punching. o_O
The same quality control as is applied to the bulk 22lr from the same factories.

If ya' base y'er opinion on a single 5 shot group, it's an amazingly accurate cartridge.
If you try to punch center off the bench, ya' might develop a contradicting opinion.

What? Slow morning at the office...time to kill. ;)
 
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JAS-SH said:
I first posted about this CZ 457 .22 Mag rifle here on July 5/2020. It has shot great until last month. As of last month it started spitting a single shot 3 or more inches away from 3/4 to 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. It does it most all the time now and in somewhat random directions (1 to 5 o'clock)....

Did some rough but mostly accurate math and being a bit conservative the Lilja straight contour barrel has ~14,000 shots through it, 99% of those being 30 grain varmint bullets from CCI and Hornady clocked at an average of 2272 FPS...

I clean the rifle normally every time I shoot it. This morning was different. I woke up and headed straight for coffee and then the work bench. Took the whole thing apart down to the last screw - barrel off and complete bolt disassembly, etc.

Cleaned everything with degreaser and re-oiled everything that needs to be. Then re-torqued everything. The barrel face where it meets the action was pretty awful - a mix of oil/grease and carbon. It's a hard place to clean without taking off the barrel. That said, the rifle went down hill around a month ago.

Now that it's all cleaned up I will shoot it as soon as it stops blowing 18-25 down here, if ever :rolleyes:. If it doesn't change and still spits shots, either the action or the barrel is toast.

CORRECTION: My math was off. Not much of a difference but honesty first is a big part of my life.
The CZ action indeed has around 14,000 rounds. The Lilja barrel on the rifle has around 13000 rounds.
I counted the rounds on the original CZ barrel in the 14,000 estimate. My apologies.
Click to expand...
As of yesterday on the CZ site they offer lifetime barrel warranty if made after 2020 providing you register with them.
 
Barbarosa said:
As of yesterday on the CZ site they offer lifetime barrel warranty if made after 2020 providing you register with them.
Click to expand...
I saw that. I called Lilja today They are great people.

In simple words, Carson Lilja said I exceeded the number of rounds where the barrel will perform with factory accuracy (best).

So, I ordered another one in WMR and also ordered an exact matching contour and length in .22 LR. That's on back order 'till March.

When you shoot a lot barrels become an expendable item. When accuracy is paramount a new barrel is cheaper than wasting time and rounds while spitting shots wide.

I usually buy 1000 rounds at a time and shoot 100+ rounds a week for ~40 weeks of the year. These days 1000 rounds of .22 WMR is ~$400. The barrel is just $495 and lasted ~3 years. Simple math....

So it's settled. Still a lot better off than shooting a 6mm creed.
 
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JAS-SH said:
I saw that. I called Lilja today They are great people.

In simple words, Carson Lilja said I exceeded the number of rounds where the barrel will perform with factory accuracy (best).

So, I ordered another one in WMR and also ordered an exact matching contour and length in .22 LR. That's on back order 'till March.

When you shoot a lot barrels become an expendable item. When accuracy is paramount a new barrel is cheaper than wasting time and rounds while spitting shots wide. I usually buy 1000 rounds at a time. These days 1000 rounds of .22 WMR is ~$400. The barrel is just $495 and lasted ~3 years. Simple math....

So it's settled. Still a lot better off than shooting a 6mm creed.
Click to expand...
A new barrel ain't gonna fix shit ammo🤔
 
BisSilent said:
A new barrel ain't gonna fix shit ammo🤔
Click to expand...
It takes him back to where he was ( at a minimum). The ammo is not changing and he was happy with it. I totally agree with a barrel replacement and it will give him another 3-4 years of fun before he does it again. Congratulations on a good plan and enjoy!
 
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Got an email from Lilja yesterday. The barrel is already on its way and I should have it next week. That's great service. They had to cut it to my specified length and re-crown it.

I learned a long time ago that there are some people worth trusting until proven otherwise. So far so good with the Lilja folks.

And now for a couple of controversial subjects - .22 Mag vs. .22LR and breaking in a barrel:

Again, I trust Lilja on this and will follow through. Below are two statements from them on those two topics:

On the first, they have this to say:

"The 22 WMR and 17 HMR cartridges are rimfires but they fire a jacketed bullet and therefore centerfire cleaning and break-in instructions apply."

On the second topic they do recommend breaking a barrel in and tell you why. So, I did it on the first one and will do it to the replacement. It takes very little time and if there ever is a problem, that's the first thing most barrel makers will ask about. Here's the link to breaking in a centerfire rifle - which applies to the .22 Mag and the 17 HMR:

https://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/
 
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Ok my 2 cents…you’re getting the new barrel, install with proper torque, etc along with the action screws, run 50-100 rounds.

if still “spitting” afterwards only thing it can really be at that point other than operator error on the “spitted” shot is the ammo, and maybe head spacing / slop in the bolt.

Can always redneck gunsmith a bolt shim out of a beer can and give it a try.

Probably the better try - taking about 300 rounds and weigh them. Break them out into weight lots, shoot the individual weight lots and see if you’re still spitting, chances are 1 or 2 of the weight lots will “spit”, usually on the extreme lighter or heavier lots.

You can also do the rim thickness measurements, no fancy tools needed other than sticking the round in the mouth of an inverted.243 shell and calipers. Break out the lots by rim thickness and give them a try.

Personally, I believe more in the weight lots as I’ve had better results at 100-200ysrds using weight lots, oddly at shorter ranges 25-75 yards the rim thickness seems to have better results on 22mag and LR.

Nice thing about having a new barrel and old one is you can try different things with the old one without worrying about ruining it….cutting your own crown, shortening, adding dampeners (wheel weights) etc just to see what happens.
 
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Do want to know the secret to amazing accuracy with 22wmr? :oops:

Get closer to what y'er aiming at. :sneaky:

It's the most effective advice given to me,
when I first started chasing small game. :cool:

Gramps knew what he was talking about. ;)
 
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TOP PREDATOR said:
Ok my 2 cents…you’re getting the new barrel, install with proper torque, etc along with the action screws, run 50-100 rounds.

if still “spitting” afterwards only thing it can really be at that point other than operator error on the “spitted” shot is the ammo, and maybe head spacing / slop in the bolt.

Can always redneck gunsmith a bolt shim out of a beer can and give it a try.

Probably the better try - taking about 300 rounds and weigh them. Break them out into weight lots, shoot the individual weight lots and see if you’re still spitting, chances are 1 or 2 of the weight lots will “spit”, usually on the extreme lighter or heavier lots.

You can also do the rim thickness measurements, no fancy tools needed other than sticking the round in the mouth of an inverted.243 shell and calipers. Break out the lots by rim thickness and give them a try.

Personally, I believe more in the weight lots as I’ve had better results at 100-200ysrds using weight lots, oddly at shorter ranges 25-75 yards the rim thickness seems to have better results on 22mag and LR.

Nice thing about having a new barrel and old one is you can try different things with the old one without worrying about ruining it….cutting your own crown, shortening, adding dampeners (wheel weights) etc just to see what happens.
Click to expand...
We agree. I received the barrel last Thursday installed it and went to the range on Friday to break-in the barrel. As predicted by Lilja it only took three-five shots to get rid of the copper fouling. 8 shots total (2-3-3) with cleanings after all 3 groups. Took around 60-minutes including copper remover dwell time and 2 cease fire calls.

The new barrel POI was ~2 MOA off and low to the left so I then adjusted and took 3-shots, adjusted again and 2-shots to more or less zero it in - done. Image is below (the two big targets) - then called it a day. Went home and put a couple of patches through it the get the loose carbon out and got ready for Saturday.

On Saturday I sent 150-rounds downrange at 100 in 10 shot groups. No spitters. The barrel is to spec. As expected, it's not a tack driver but really good for a ..22 Mag - about the same as the first one. It will easily do 1/2 MOA or less at 50 and 3/4 to 1.1 MOA at 100 . That's for 5 and 10 shots respectively.

So, I'm back in business! Below are the zeroing shots and a typical 10-shot group.

Zeroing shots (5) at two targets:
i-5ZcHw6f-L.jpg


And here's a 10-shot group at 100. Interesting how after the first shot I felt the kiss of the first breeze of the day on my left cheek. And sure enough, it doesn't take much, <5 mph to move a 30-grain .22. So, I did not correct for wind. Only measured ES, 2-shots...
i-VQ3BjN7-M.png
 
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I am jealous. Dude gets to shoot so much that he can smoke a rimfire barrel. I personally only know 1 person who has done this.
 
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