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What's the best performing 223 AR load/bullet if you had to choose one?

From watching a lot of different bullets go downrange over the years, primarily shooting steel targets in DM courses, I really like how the 75gr A-MAX did the best. In 2013, a guy told me he would be bringing that load, and I asked him, “Did you check to see that it won’t fit inside your mags?"

“These ones do though. My fiend loaded them for me."

Me: “No problem, I’ll have some 69gr and 75gr match for you in case that doesn’t work."

He shows up with these things, which his buddy loaded to mag-compliant COL, and crimped the freaking mouth over the ogive. I figure he’s going to have all sorts of problems, but instead, he proceeded to be the only one hitting the plates in the wind at 450-600yds consistently.

It made me wish the 5.56 had stayed .222 Remington with a shortened neck. It was a slick little load.

77gr Mk.262, 69gr SMK, and 75gr have all done pretty well for what I see them used for.

69gr SMK always seem hard to beat for grouping, but I personally care more about hitting steel.

All of them are pretty weak-sounding on steel as you get past 300yds, with minimal visible splash.
 
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75 Hornady BTHP and Berger 77 OTM shoot excellent and to almost an identical POI out to about 500yds in my rifle with 24.5 gr of varget. Both at 2.26 oal. Right around 2600 fps. LC brass, have experimented with lapua but didn't gain anything noticeable in my AR (older POF with a rock creek barrel). Cci 450 primers. I would say these bullets with varget shoot an honest 3/4 moa in my gun.
 
Yondering said:
8208 has been readily available around here in several of our main gun shops until about a month ago. Not sure why some of you guys think it's unobtanium.
Click to expand...

I buy most of my powder online at 7 - 10 larger distributors & I also use a search bot for components that can search lots of suppliers very quickly for a given item.

And I haven't seen any 8208 for sale anywhere in at least the last year. And the last time I did see it, the price was more that $50 pound.

It' a very good powder & I like it a lot but I've moved on to other powders as well. Some are better some are about the same, performance wise.

Some others I'm not as fond of still work for some purposes.

Just depends on your goals & expectations.

How's the new job?

MM
 
MontanaMan said:
I buy most of my powder online at 7 - 10 larger distributors & I also use a search bot for components that can search lots of suppliers very quickly for a given item.

And I haven't seen any 8208 for sale anywhere in at least the last year. And the last time I did see it, the price was more that $50 pound.

It' a very good powder & I like it a lot but I've moved on to other powders as well. Some are better some are about the same, performance wise.

Some others I'm not as fond of still work for some purposes.

Just depends on your goals & expectations.

How's the new job?

MM
Click to expand...
I think a lot of people don't realize that components are not distributed equally. Stuff they see locally might not have been available at all elsewhere. Guns too. The way things are sold and allocated can make things whacky.
 
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LGS who always seems to have the most powder of any of the other locals, says he really has no idea what he's going to get until he gets it.

You'd surely think that the Big Guys like Powder Valley, Midway, Brownells, Mid-South, etc., would preferentially get the most, the fastest just because of their volume................maybe no. I dunno.

MM
 
I was at one of my local gun stores who have probably more reloading supplies than anyone else, even Sportsman’s Warehouse. They also were affected by Wuhanflu like everyone else, so there were slim pickings for a while.

I was wandering around when I noticed a clerk place a box on the counter. A strange aura emanated from the box that attracted me to it like a moth to flame. I walked towards the box without really telling myself to do so.

The clerk opened the box and began labeling containers inside of it. Nobody else was around in that part of the store.

As I reached in, I saw 4 other arms next to mine reaching too.

It was H4350, and we just somehow all knew.
 
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MontanaMan said:
I buy most of my powder online at 7 - 10 larger distributors & I also use a search bot for components that can search lots of suppliers very quickly for a given item.

And I haven't seen any 8208 for sale anywhere in at least the last year. And the last time I did see it, the price was more that $50 pound.

It' a very good powder & I like it a lot but I've moved on to other powders as well. Some are better some are about the same, performance wise.

Some others I'm not as fond of still work for some purposes.

Just depends on your goals & expectations.

How's the new job?

MM
Click to expand...

I've been seeing Benchmark here and there recently, and that's a pretty close substitute for 8208. Probably the closest we can get to be honest; slightly faster burn rate but very similar accuracy nodes (in 5.56 anyway) and also very good temp stability like 8208.

One of my all around best loads that shot well in just about any 5.56 rifle was the 75gr Hdy BTHP over 23.5gr of Benchmark and S&B SR primers. Wish I could get those S&B primers again though because nothing else worked as well in that load.
 
I'll keep an eye out for Benchmark, that's one I've never tried. BR shooter friend who originally introduced me to 8208, once told me that H-335 was the predecessor of 8208 & is essentially the same, but 335 is a ball powder & 8208 is a fine stick powder, so maybe he meant 322 & I've never tried either 335 or 322. Or maybe he just meant in the military's application of 335 in 5.56.

As far as primers go, I've had great success with a big stash of Wolf Match Mag primers, but only have a thousand or so left. Rem 7 1/2's have also been good. I have a fair amount of Fed AR Match but haven't spent much time wringing them out yet.

MM
 
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Hahaha.

Yeah. Definitely lucked out. It's also why I'm doing a workup with varget as it seems I can find that stuff all day every day.
 
MontanaMan said:
I still have nearly 8 lb of 8208 that I bought from a friend as well, but I've developed loads with VV-N540, VV-140, AR-Comp & 2000-MR that all perform as well or better than 8208 with 69/77's.

Both 540 & the 2000-MR give a little higher velocity, with 140 & AR-Comp doing about the same as 8208.

540 & 140 do a little bit better on accuracy as 8208; 2000-MR & AR-Comp are about the same. All are good enough for my needs.

With 55 & 60 grain bullets, VV-133 has consistently given me the best accuracy.

VV-N540 & 133 are pretty available right now, 2000-MR & AR-Comp come & go, VV-140 is unobtanium again right now though.

TAC, while not always the very best in either velocity or super fine accuracy, is still very good, cheap (by today's standards) & is readily available, especially for banging or hoser loads.

JME

MM
Click to expand...
Got some 77TMK enroute. Last time I loaded 5.56 was over 10yrs ago with 24gr H4895 in LC cases. 2750 16”.

I got 8lbs on N540 looking for a purpose. Recommend charge weight bracket?
 
With 77 SMK'S & Nosler 77 CC's, I'm using 24.7 gr of 540 in Win & LC brass with Wolf or Rem primers.

In an 18" barrel, I get 2740ish.

Safe range has been up to 25.3 with no pressure signs but 24.7 -25 gives best accuracy for me.

MM
 
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reubenski said:
TAC is my cheaper 8208 substitute. It's very multipurpose. From 155gr Palma Matchkings in short barreled 308, 6.5 Grendel, and 75gr .223.
Click to expand...
Same here. 24.2-24.4 gr over 77smk’s in 3 AR’s makes very accurate, cheap, and fast/easy to load ammo. Stuff pours like water from a thrower. It may give a little up to 8208 in accuracy but I have looked at the same 2.5lbs on my shelf for the last year so what good does it do me being a little better if I can’t get my hands on it without giving up my kid in exchange. I don’t shoot matches anymore so I’m fine until things settle, and hell I may not go back after it does for half price 😂
 
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Molon said:
The terminal ballistic properties of the 62/64 grain Gold Dot approaches that of the 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and as you’ll see shortly, the 62 grain Gold Dot is considerably more accurate/precise than the TBBC. When handloaded, it is actually the most accurate/precise bonded soft-point bullet in that weight category that I’ve tested.
64_gold_dot_vs_62_tbbc_gel_tests_01-2947815.jpg


Three 10-shot groups of hand-load 62 grain Gold Dots fired from one of my precision AR-15s had the following extreme spreads:

0.662”

0.655”

0.581”

for an average extreme spread of 0.622”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 30-shot composite group was 0.215”.

The smallest 10-shot group . . .


speer_62_grain_gold_dot_smallest_10_shot-2925177.jpg


....
Click to expand...
Are those velocities on the low end for such a light projectile?
 
77 grain SMK/TMK/Nosler, wolf SRP, H322. Brass doesn’t seem to play a huge role with few outlier exceptions.
PB
 
Did anyone mention the Berger 70 grainer VLD?? These have been my go-to for 15 years or so. Can send em pretty fast, bearing surface is less, and the BC is pretty high for the weight.

I'm about out of H-4895 which I use with these 70's and its hard to come by so on to other alternative powders.

I used a medium load of 23.6 out of a 15" barrel at 2615 fps to keep my lapua brass in good shape but these always shot fantastic.
Just a month ago I was hitting a 21" steel plate at 1143 yards without much trouble and the vertical was great but I'm sure most of that is I weigh the charges and the wind was down. I also used some old Winchester factory ammo that day with heavy bullets and the vertical was nasty. A huge difference between them.
 
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MontanaMan said:
I'll keep an eye out for Benchmark, that's one I've never tried. BR shooter friend who originally introduced me to 8208, once told me that H-335 was the predecessor of 8208 & is essentially the same, but 335 is a ball powder & 8208 is a fine stick powder, so maybe he meant 322 & I've never tried either 335 or 322. Or maybe he just meant in the military's application of 335 in 5.56.

As far as primers go, I've had great success with a big stash of Wolf Match Mag primers, but only have a thousand or so left. Rem 7 1/2's have also been good. I have a fair amount of Fed AR Match but haven't spent much time wringing them out yet.

MM
Click to expand...
H335 is faster and not a very good choice for heavey bullets in the 223.
 
LRRPF52 said:
From watching a lot of different bullets go downrange over the years, primarily shooting steel targets in DM courses, I really like how the 75gr A-MAX did the best. In 2013, a guy told me he would be bringing that load, and I asked him, “Did you check to see that it won’t fit inside your mags?"

“These ones do though. My fiend loaded them for me."

Me: “No problem, I’ll have some 69gr and 75gr match for you in case that doesn’t work."

He shows up with these things, which his buddy loaded to mag-compliant COL, and crimped the freaking mouth over the ogive. I figure he’s going to have all sorts of problems, but instead, he proceeded to be the only one hitting the plates in the wind at 450-600yds consistently.

It made me wish the 5.56 had stayed .222 Remington with a shortened neck. It was a slick little load.

77gr Mk.262, 69gr SMK, and 75gr have all done pretty well for what I see them used for.

69gr SMK always seem hard to beat for grouping, but I personally care more about hitting steel.

All of them are pretty weak-sounding on steel as you get past 300yds, with minimal visible splash.
Click to expand...

I suppose one could trim the necks down far enough so the mouth's aren't so crimped over the ogive as much. I should have experimented with that way back when when I didn't know that the 75vmax wasn't traditionally suited for mag length AR. I had ordered a box of 500 so I sold them ASAP.

Well we have more powerful cartridges for AR's anyway and it is nicer seeing those heavier and higher BC bullets hitting harder.
 
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RTH1800 said:
77 SMK OVER 23.x grains Tac.
Click to expand...
I finally got my Bartlein's in for my 22" JP .223 and 20" tOBR 6.5CM, between the Cluster Fuck at CLE and sending them off for Cryogenic Treatment it took a good while to get them in.

20240202_174856.jpg


I always run Tac in my .223/5.56 Gassers with exceptional Accuracy across a wide range of ambient temperatures, definitely doesn't seem to be as temp sensitive as many people claim. With the new 22" barrel I'm gonna give 8208 XBR a go and see if I can squeeze a little bit more accuracy out. Also upgraded my .223 brass from Lake City to Lapua and the wife picked me up another RCBS MatchMaster so I can reload for multiple rifles at the same time..

My review of the Larue and the two JP rifles in .223 and 6.5CM should be finished by next month.
 
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bigjake83 said:
I finally got my Bartlein's in for my 22" JP .223 and 20" tOBR 6.5CM, between the Cluster Fuck at CLE and sending them off for Cryogenic Treatment it took a good while to get them in.

View attachment 8349963

I always run Tac in my .223/5.56 Gassers with exceptional Accuracy across a wide range of ambient temperatures, definitely doesn't seem to be as temp sensitive as many people claim. With the new 22" barrel I'm gonna give 8208 XBR a go and see if I can squeeze a little bit more accuracy out. Also upgraded my .223 brass from Lake City to Lapua and the wife picked me up another RCBS MatchMaster so I can reload for multiple rifles at the same time..

My review of the Larue and the two JP rifles in .223 and 6.5CM should be finished by next month.
Click to expand...

If you find 8208XBR that will be a neat trick......
 
MontanaMan said:
What Tony said.

But if forced to have only one load, it would be a 69 or 77gr SMK, TMK or 75 Hornady. (The 69 TMK has been very accurate for me with 8208, VV-N540 & AR Comp. )

SMK's are almost never not accurate; the Hornady can be very good or just MEH in some guns.

Heavy bullets will do all that lighter bullets will do, but not the reverse.................but the lighter bullets cost less & in a situation where you might want the absolute lightest recoil or reduced loads, the lighter bullets will have an edge.

MM
Click to expand...
Mine likes 69ers better
 
Has anyone tried N133 behind 77s?

I met a guy at the range that claims it is the best powder he has tried with that bullet. His ballistician friend said that while the velocity may be down a touch, the consistent MV is worth it.

I've seen some good results with H322 but I will stay with 8208 while I still have some.

beenjammin said:
Mine likes 69ers better
Click to expand...
Shorter bullets typically shoot better at 100, but the length of the heavies really shines at distance.
 
pmclaine said:
If you find 8208XBR that will be a neat trick......
Click to expand...

It's been around here and there. I've bought it a couple times over the past year or two.
Benchmark was out recently too, which is very close to 8208 (just one step faster burn rate) and usually works well in the same applications.
 
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Mike_in_FL said:
I've been able to find it the past couple of years although it seems only once a year. I use the Discord server and get in stock notifications from the reloading group.
Click to expand...
Avavailable 1x a year but with the occasional "oops we skipped a year" ... LOL :D
 
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My local grocery store/Ace Hardware has 8208XBR stacked deep on the shelves. I was really surprised to see it, along with a bunch of other popular powders.
 
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MarshallDodge said:
Has anyone tried N133 behind 77s?

I met a guy at the range that claims it is the best powder he has tried with that bullet. His ballistician friend said that while the velocity may be down a touch, the consistent MV is worth it.

I've seen some good results with H322 but I will stay with 8208 while I still have some.


Shorter bullets typically shoot better at 100, but the length of the heavies really shines at distance.
Click to expand...
N133 and the 53 Vmax is a match made in heaven. And yes this load shoots great in my 1:7 barrels.

N140 is fantastic with the 77 SMK/TMK.
 
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Yondering said:
It's been around here and there. I've bought it a couple times over the past year or two.
Benchmark was out recently too, which is very close to 8208 (just one step faster burn rate) and usually works well in the same applications.
Click to expand...

Thought I'd comment on this again since I was just at the gun shop this afternoon - no 8208 right now, but they had a bunch of Benchmark (as well as lots of H4350 and a bit of RL16 which I haven't seen in a while). Hornady's 75gr BTHP over 23.5gr of Benchmark and the old S&B primers (wish I could find more of those!!!) was one of the most consistently accurate AR15 heavy-bullet loads I've used in a couple of my rifles, and did around 2,680 fps in a 16" barrel.
 
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