Yup, you're right. I also did not talk about exposure settings, either. Both these ideas could be a problem.
Thanks.
Zac, your original idea is best. Please do these when you next go for a shot, when you "can. See what I did there?
Suppressors Help Me Choose My Next Can.
- Thread starter mebgardner
- Start date
Yup, you're right. I also did not talk about exposure settings, either. Both these ideas could be a problem.
Thanks.
Zac, your original idea is best. Please do these when you next go for a shot, when you "can. See what I did there?
Bought an OCL Lithium today. Gonna get something for the hi power rifle before long.
LGS has 3 cases of cans. 4 shelves per case, 12-15 cans per shelf, and the cases and shelves are *full*. More behind the counter. Lotsa choices.
He reminded me of an idea the same thing I've read here this week: Hard Use = High Rate of Fire / FA. Maybe I don't need that.
I asked to see 5 different cans from the shelves. They had only a previous revision of the MG7K in 30, and a current Rev MG7K in 556.
The others were not available!
TBAC Magnus-S, DD Enticer-S, OCL Hydrogen-S, LPM Anthem-S, Abel Biscuit, AB A-10.
Nada. Out of the 100+ on the shelf.
I poked again at the Magnus video this morning in the hopes of learning more about Ti cans and what looks like a hard use case. Still Shopping.
LGS has 3 cases of cans. 4 shelves per case, 12-15 cans per shelf, and the cases and shelves are *full*. More behind the counter. Lotsa choices.
He reminded me of an idea the same thing I've read here this week: Hard Use = High Rate of Fire / FA. Maybe I don't need that.
I asked to see 5 different cans from the shelves. They had only a previous revision of the MG7K in 30, and a current Rev MG7K in 556.
The others were not available!
TBAC Magnus-S, DD Enticer-S, OCL Hydrogen-S, LPM Anthem-S, Abel Biscuit, AB A-10.
Nada. Out of the 100+ on the shelf.
I poked again at the Magnus video this morning in the hopes of learning more about Ti cans and what looks like a hard use case. Still Shopping.
Don’t feed the trolls. This one has a never ending stream of bullshit.
My $0.02.
I prefer Ti for weight and depending on the model it's usually fine for most firing schedules unless you are a really fast, sustained CQC/3-gun type shooter or have an auto. The sparks go away after a few hundred rounds, but can come back for a while after cleaning, so that is probably why there are varying reports.
If you really don't care about weight, steel cans are generally cheaper and depending on the model generally hold up under higher rate firing schedules as compared to Ti, but you need to ask yourself if you really shoot that fast for that long.
For high back pressure, very quiet cans I like DD Enticer L-Ti (very quiet and good value) and TBAC Magnus (a gold standard, but much heavier and at the high end of price range). It's always an apples to oranges comparison for sound level, but in my view these cans are similar in suppression level. The steel version of the Enticer L is a relative bargain. I purchased these strictly for bolt guns due to the high back pressure. Some run high back pressure cans like these on gas guns, but not me. If you try use an adjustable gas block system with a wide range of adjustment, and don't be surprised to have a lot more gas in your face.
For moderate/lower end of back pressure suitable for ARs but still "quiet enough", I like KGM R30. This has about 8-9 dB lower suppression performance than the Enticer L and Magnus, which is very significant, but there are other advantages besides the lower back pressure. The R30 is light, durable (for Ti) and has better recoil reduction than most suppressors due to the radial venting at the end cap. If you can give up an additional 4dB you can go to the R30K and save some length and a couple ounces while picking up noticeable additional recoil reduction (maybe 45% for R30K vs 40% for R30 - compare this to 60% from the best muzzle brakes and significantly less than 40% for most suppressors). The radial venting on both models can also be tuned with set screws to mitigate muzzle rise and lateral movement, to a degree. Both of these models are hub compatible so they will work with most adapters and quick connect mounts if that is your cup of tea, or if you like direct thread (my general choice). Middle of price range if you can find them on sale, upper middle at list. KGM went dark in the retail market for about a year while they expanded their business with LE/M customers and they are now re-launching retail. KGM has a new dedicated 556 can coming out that is supposed to be better than their old 556 model, but from what I hear it will not be as good for suppression and recoil as the R-30 line, so I like the more versatile, higher performance can even for 556 duty.
Also at about 8-9dB less suppression than the Enticer L-Ti and Magnus, DD Enticer S-Ti is a price performer in the moderate/lower end of the back pressure performance, but with less recoil reduction and no muzzle tuning as compared to KGM R line. The steel version is even less expensive. The performance for this can is somewhere in between the Ultra 5 and Ultra 7, and it's considerably less expensive.
I just ordered a CAT ODB because I couldn't resist trying it given the way it is reported to defy the performance bounds for very low back pressure cans. This has very low back pressure but still seems to perform like a moderate back pressure can, and is reported to have very low FRP. There is very little comparative review information vs the KGM, so I decided to find out for myself. Can't say one way or the other until I compare side by side with other cans so I can't recommend it.
For mounting solutions, I like the area 419 although I don't use it on all weapons and mostly go with direct thread. The A419 is nice because you don't have to keep the weight of a brake when you mount a suppressor and the adapter is lighter and shorter than most others. It's not as "quick connect" as brake adapters like KeyMo, but it's quick enough and the Hellfire Match is an "almost as good" contender for recoil reduction and muzzle rise whereas brakes like the KeyMo are way less effective than best of breed (like the APA FB, MPA DN5, etc).
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I am loosening my grip on my stance regarding Ti cans and sparking as I absorb what's been said here in this thread.
You mentioned KGM alot. Have you seen, or used, a Daniel Defense Soundguard Ti SG-30, or the "regular" Soundguard SG-30, Made by KGM for DD?
The DD web pages mention proprietary internal coatings to reduce flash signature, and I got excited when I thought they were also talking about reducing sparking too. I have yet to hear back from them on that point.
Thanks for your writeup.
There is ignorance, and there is stupidity.
I suffer from ignorance, and I'm trying to cure it. Fortunately, some are helpful and I express my gratitude.
Which are you?
The outside surface of the Dominus-SR reaches 1100-1200 F (as determined using temperature-indicating welding crayons) during the SOCOM-SURGE cycle test.
For more information about that test protocol, please read it here https://thunderbeastarms.com/products/dominus-sr
To cool to ambient from there takes over 15 minutes.
The Dominus-SR's lifetime is guaranteed to be at least 10 of the SOCOM SURGE cycles. The video shows 11. I don't remember how many that particular one had before we started. Every round fired is not equal; that is why we characterize the lifetime of this unit in this way.
Buy a hard use AR can and a bolt rifle 30 cal can. The sico scythe is currently the most attractive bolt rifle can to me for weight/size conscious applications. The blend of weight, length, suppression capability, and ability to add a brake on end for recoil reduction, is very hard to beat.
That temperature is enormously above the typical 700-800 F temperature maximum recommended by all other builders.
Since those conditions were present during the SURG testing, my assumption is the firing schedule maximums were not exceeded during that time.
I see the Magnus line (in the -SR mount) comes with the same hard use rating as the Dominus-SR. That's astonishing those two model are under warranty to withstand those conditions (Lifetime 10 SURG cycles), on an SBR.
That's a really fine construction and design, Zac. Plenty to be proud of there.
I would desire to keep the HUB / Bravo interface selection. Can you advise me of any mounting devices that will Not Fit the Magnus HUB interface? That is, I have my eye on the Rearden Atlas and the DA Xeno models. Tell me if either of those do not meet any of the interface spec that you would recommend for the Magnus HUB, and certainly please steer me away from such that you know about that I dont.
Again, thank you for your patience with me.
I still do not understand this comment, and I know you've posted it twice. The firing schedule maximum for the Dominus-SR (and at this point all of our SR cans) is defined to be the SOCOM SURGE test and then we characterize the lifetime in terms of how many of those cycles it is guaranteed to survive.
We do still give temperature based ratings for the 1.5" diameter Ultra series. Conservative temperature ratings for Ti cans are good when using a simplistic view of material properties or when designing ultralight cans. We obviously designed the Dominus (and Magnus) a different way.
No idea. We haven't heard of anything in particular not working, but we also don't go out of our way to test other products for compatibility.
This answer is clear. It's my fault as a non-industry knowledgeable person attempting to be understood. Sometime I suck at it. Your response is clear to me. The test is the definition of the firing schedule. Got It.
There would be noises of complaint, you would have heard. Or, it's a new interface on you devices, not out there much yet. From my perspective, no news is good news.
I've got different cans for different purposes:
PRS: KGM R30. I'd also look at the Daniel Defense soundguard cans
22lr: KGM R22.
Hunting: Crux Nemises 30
Magnum: Gunwerks 8eight.
I'll eventually pick up a hard use suppressor for my AR.
PRS: KGM R30. I'd also look at the Daniel Defense soundguard cans
22lr: KGM R22.
Hunting: Crux Nemises 30
Magnum: Gunwerks 8eight.
I'll eventually pick up a hard use suppressor for my AR.
haven’t tried the DD cans and don’t know anyone who has.
Like I said, my experience is the sparks go away after a while but can come back for a bit after cleaning. If you really want to shoot at night and not be seen don’t mess with Ti coating, go for a steel can that has an excellent flash hider at the end cap. If your life were to depend on no flash, that should be your high priority. The only things I shoot at night are hogs and varmints and they don’t shoot back so the lighter weight with Ti is a no brainer for me.
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The loss of frame-by-frame information must speak to the refresh rate of the CMOS sensors that are used in most cameras and phones. Thermal / IR sensors use a chopper or shutter to "drain" the pixel wells of energy, called Non Uniform Correction (NUC). That is, all of these are Staring sensors, they dont blink. The only explanation of losing pixel information in a frame is that a cell refresh (likely a row of pixels, row by row) is performed. Note this is different than a memory device cell refresh (all DRAM types do this). They do not change state on a refresh. What I learned from this is, CMOS requires the same idea as a thermal sensor: A cell refresh is needed, likely for the same reason: To drain the pixel cell energy for the next frame.
This leads to why I believe video can still be made. I dont need it, I'm not requesting it. This is for anyone who wants to try it but do not have access to the 1,000,000 frame per second cameras used for recording nuke pops. I think you could use even a camera phone and do a decent job.
You will need special range permission to be in front of the muzzle, even if safely off to the side. Outdoors is fine, just do not point the camera at a background lit by bright sunlight. Not pointed at sky either. A far range wall in shade will work. A next bench over slab side will work.
The camera / phone must be able to hold user settings without switching back to defaults after 10 seconds. If you change the focus point, it must hold that. When you change the exposure, it must hold that change. The camera algorithms handling focus control may do some post processing on depth of field ("soft" focus, blurs background to look like shallow focus depth in frame). Turn that off if you can, or switch mode from "Portrait" to something appropriate.
The rifle must have a weapon mounted light. A bright one. Brighter the Better. Next to the muzzle, where it's always been is fine (no barrel shadows right?).
Set up the range, point the camera. Turn on the weapon light. Set your zoom magnification. Focus on the light. Hold focus there. Set the exposure all the way down. You should be able to see just the weapon light, nothing else. It will look like a night video with one light in the frame, with the light in sharp focus. Hold that exposure. Start the video, and take a shot. You get what you get during the result video frames. At least the blast display will not be blown out of exposure. I think you will see what you are looking for.
I own and use high end commercial thermal. Pulsar stuff. It's very hard to hide from good Thermal. Poor quality thermal uses those CMOS sensors mentioned earlier, and I've looked enough to know Frame Rate Matters too.
This is a good writeup, tho. Really makes me think about the use case for my next hi power can. I note you are the first to really step forward and say that about "No Flash" being high priority in a specific use. I think because mostly we have been talking about my reluctance to adopt Ti because of Sparks. Not Flash. Different Thing. But I get your point.
I do remember Zak talking about nods, tho. I sure wish I knew what he knows about those operating conditions WRT can selection.
I've got a good list of suggestions from this thread, tho. I'm looking at them closely. I asked my LGS for quotes on the Magnus-S, and the OCL Hydrogen-S. I figure I should pull on some of that goodwill from just buying 2 ea cans from them in last month. Two more quotes does not sound excessive at this point. My LGS guy knows Im seriously looking, and he's updated on my current thinking, which has been bouncing around some based on what I've been learning.
Respectfully, out there, I'm paying attention.
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Jesus Christ... This shit is still fucking going? 
The real explanation of missing things is rolling shutter. If the event happens fast enough it happens in between frames. Even on high speed cameras if you don't have a fast enough frame you will miss what happens between frames.
What I was trying to talk about is long exposures. Shutter is open longer so it gathers more light. It captures everything during the open time. Long exposures are easier at night with out over exposing without needing a neutral density filter.
In this picture I took I was playing with the time that the light in the tepee was on. Iirc less than 6 seconds. Shutter was open 20 seconds. Photo was taken at 9:18pm October 13 of 2022 near Thermopolis Wyoming.
Earlier same night. 30 sec exposure. Lightness in the sky was from the moon which is just out of frame.
Camera was Canon 90d. Cmos sensor. No tripod yet so I was propping it up with stuff.
If I had a place to shoot at night I would try to get the shot. Ultra 7 30cal.
Indeed. I have your recommendations: TBAC Magnus-S .30 or Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S 7.62. These are the only "request for quote" I currently have out to my LGS. So, Thanks for the Leg Up. They were excellent recommends.
While you were out, the chat has been mostly friendly and informative. My Level of Ignorance Decreases. Good, right? Ah, never mind I get it. You dont care. But, first beer is on me if we ever meet.
I note that my original writing for my use case spec has held up pretty well. Except for the NODS part. And the "Someone Is Shooting Back At Me / My Life Depends On No Flash Being Seen part.
I sure wish I knew what Zac knows when it comes to NODS and can selection.
I think you would likely recommend the Magnus-S over the OCL Hydrogen-S if those problems were a consideration. I did not expect you back, but now that you are, what do you think? If you had those two, or other choices, which would you select if NODS and / or flash (spark?) detection were part of your considerations?
Edit: I decided on getting my SD-N6 modified to a HUB interface only, instead of a core rebuild. I'm going to use the "saved" funds to get a more modern can, and it's likely to be expensive. Or Not. All Steel may still win this trade off. But, Barrel Length and Clean Ammo make the most difference. I learned that here. From you and Zak.
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Man, this dude is a "Purchase Princess".
Hey?! You know what engineers use for birth control?
Their personalities.
Hey?! You know what engineers use for birth control?
Their personalities.
Lol. If you are on the objective end of a thermal scope you don't need to worry about sparks or flash, you may as well make a bonfire.
That rich, coming from a moron like you.
Nothing to offer but trash talk, huh? Good luck with that.
Just thought the comment was in humor, not serious
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You are absolutely right. Mine is as well, a humorous response. I saw his laughing emoji, and recognized the humor. But, I do appreciate your acumen to point this out to me. Thank You!
This Hide is not like most forums. These are serious men here, not taken to allowing newcomers into the fold. Kinda like 'Nam. Serious Business.
I can not let challenges go unanswered here. That is, I'm not going to. I think you understand.
Be careful with that. People are taking notice of your username because of your diatribe and bloviating. If you think the answer is to get mouthy in response, you're just going to get dogpiled. It's common mistake a lot of newcomers make. Honestly, what you probably need to do is is cool it off for a little bit.
OK. I appreciate the measured response, and the advice. I will do this. Thank You, too.
I offer my sincerest apology to any and all that I have offended. Truely, I apologize.
I have been offered many fine suppressor suggestions, and I am following up on them.
Thank You to all that have helped me understand things, including the social stuff.
I have been offered many fine suppressor suggestions, and I am following up on them.
Thank You to all that have helped me understand things, including the social stuff.
To add to this. Was going to put it in a PM but I can't PM you. You seem to be acting well now. Keep it up. Below meant in a friendly manner.
Just a heads up. Got a couple of threads for you to read up on to understand the Hide better. This is where a lot of people on this forum are coming from. A lot of the knowledgeable have read and sometimes post in these threads.
The thing about the Hide is not that it isn't welcoming to new people. It is that anytime some one comes in swinging themselves around it isn't the first time. People stuck in analysis paralysis on cans? I have seen at least 10 separate threads in my time here. Mil/moa? At least 4 per year. People trying to bash a legitimate company for something they did? Every other month.
If somebody comes in and starts throwing themselves around people pounce. For fun.
On the other hand if somebody comes in swinging and somebody tells them to knock it off and they act appropriately after and act like a man, they are more welcomed in (looks to be what you are trying to do now).
Be careful what assumptions about the people on the other side of the username. There are real subject matter experts in almost every field here. Some in multiple fields. Some of those can also be somewhat of dicks. Not naming names even though I could.
Read all of this one first.
Bear Pit Expectations
For those that are new to (or not acquainted with) the Pit, it can be a rough and tumble place. While not everything is allowed, it is a place for shooting the breeze, expressing opinions on non-shooting related topics, and a place to blow off steam. But lately there seems to be some...
www.snipershide.com Take this one more slowly. Think to yourself as you take individual threads on. Do I want to be on the bad side of these threads? Some of those threads aren't in the Bear Pit or weren't when they started. They will also help you get up to speed on some of the inside jokes.
Legendary Thread Reference
Figured it'd be nice to have a place to go to find some of the Legendary threads. They can be old ones (like gecko45), newer ones (like buddly or recoil control bipods), or even as a place to check what looks like it might turn into a Legendary thread. I've seen a few times where different...
www.snipershide.com The Hide is a different place from almost every other place on the net. Take that into consideration.
Yo - Hide is by far the place to go for just about anything in shooting sports and the more serious uses of firearm tools. It’s truly amazing. If you’re a newbie at some aspect, newcomers are more than welcome. Just ask honest questions and you will get lots of help. It’s also for experts looking to fine tune their art, a place they can find collaboration and information at the highest levels. By way of example, read back through all the great information you received on your OP question and follow ups. Do you know anywhere else that you could have obtained so many thoughtful and experienced answers to your specific suppressor questions? Re your comment that “challenges” must be responded to, that’s probably not the most productive view. Keep in mind, most Hide members are just trying to help like others have helped them, a small percentage want to help while also selling as part of their livelihood, and others will offer some humor and occasionally some teasing along with help. I recommend you take it all in in good humor and humility, and stick to the topic at hand without taking things personal. You’re doing fine.
To add to this. Was going to put it in a PM but I can't PM you. You seem to be acting well now. Keep it up. Below meant in a friendly manner.
Just a heads up. Got a couple of threads for you to read up on to understand the Hide better. This is where a lot of people on this forum are coming from. A lot of the knowledgeable have read and sometimes post in these threads.
The thing about the Hide is not that it isn't welcoming to new people. It is that anytime some one comes in swinging themselves around it isn't the first time. People stuck in analysis paralysis on cans? I have seen at least 10 separate threads in my time here. Mil/moa? At least 4 per year. People trying to bash a legitimate company for something they did? Every other month.
If somebody comes in and starts throwing themselves around people pounce. For fun.
On the other hand if somebody comes in swinging and somebody tells them to knock it off and they act appropriately after and act like a man, they are more welcomed in (looks to be what you are trying to do now).
Be careful what assumptions about the people on the other side of the username. There are real subject matter experts in almost every field here. Some in multiple fields. Some of those can also be somewhat of dicks. Not naming names even though I could.
Read all of this one first.
Bear Pit Expectations
For those that are new to (or not acquainted with) the Pit, it can be a rough and tumble place. While not everything is allowed, it is a place for shooting the breeze, expressing opinions on non-shooting related topics, and a place to blow off steam. But lately there seems to be some...
Take this one more slowly. Think to yourself as you take individual threads on. Do I want to be on the bad side of these threads? Some of those threads aren't in the Bear Pit or weren't when they started. They will also help you get up to speed on some of the inside jokes.
Legendary Thread Reference
Figured it'd be nice to have a place to go to find some of the Legendary threads. They can be old ones (like gecko45), newer ones (like buddly or recoil control bipods), or even as a place to check what looks like it might turn into a Legendary thread. I've seen a few times where different...
The Hide is a different place from almost every other place on the net. Take that into consideration.
I've come off my timeout from the corner stool. I'm hopeful I can also remove my dunce cap without too many giggles from the class.
After some thoughtful reading of the indicated threads, I'm also thankful for being knocked off of my trajectory of becoming one of "those guys".
I will try to do better from here. Thank You, Sir, for my Wake Up Call (said with friendly humor).
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I am glad to meet you. Thank you for your friendly good humor, and your patience with me.
If you are looking for the latest and greatest in 3d printing get the CAT Dirty Old Bastard.
I have been looking closely at the Ti ODB. There is one in stock locally. Fair Price.
I'm tapped out for now, I bought two cans this month. But not this one.
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Sounds easy. Show us how it’s done, then.
I have taken ridicule and hatred from this thread. I can say that I have left those feelings behind, and I have no more. I will answer your question honestly.
Before I do, I want to once again acknowledge that I am the grateful beneficiary of the brain trust that this forum represents. I thank all that have given me a leg up in understanding what cans I should peruse to meet my needs and goals. You folks have helped me alot, and I thank you.
I am a retired SW Engineer in Tucson, AZ. I have many decades of experience with 6DOF missile testing systems, simulating missiles in flight as a lab test bed, and simulating how to beat them. My sw flies on advanced missiles in the US inventory, and other countries that we sell to. I program the layers just above the hardware and firmware on missiles. Think: RTOS windows for missiles. So, I am familiar with Monte Carlo test methods and hardware, and Design Of Experiments to optimize for those input variables.
I can not program the AI interface to do it, but I likely could point the way within an engineering team.
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