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Gen 3 Razor vs PM2 vs ZC Opinions

Hogg0494

Hogg0494

Old hunter
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Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 26, 2018
496
83
Upstate new york
Hi hide,I have been running a gen 3 Razor 6-36 on my 6.5C and at 1k and beyond I am starting to have trouble seeing hits.Guess the old eyes are getting worse.Would upgrading to better glass in a Schmidt pm2 or a Zero comp help?wanted opinions on anyone who owns or used these more expensive optics comparing to a Razor.selling the Razor I would still have to choke up 2k or better. Wanted opinions its worth it. 2k is alot of ammo. Thanks
 
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Hogg0494 said:
Hi hide,I have been running a gen 3 Razor 6-36 on my 6.5C and at 1k and beyond I am starting to have trouble seeing hits.Guess the old eyes are getting worse.Would upgrading to better glass in a Schmidt pm2 or a Zero comp help?wanted opinions on anyone who owns or used these more expensive optics comparing to a Razor.selling the Razor I would still have to choke up 2k or better. Wanted opinions its worth it. 2k is alot of ammo. Thanks
Click to expand...

I can go over everything in detail tomorrow if you PM me your number :)

Best regards,

Richard
916-628-3490
 
Poorboyr said:
The short answer is no. The Razor’s glass optically is better than the Schmidt’s. And the ZCO is only slightly better.

Maybe if you’re lucky a Theta may help, but I’m thinking no and that’s the best money can buy.
Click to expand...
ZCO slightly better than the razor!?! I mean if you like frequent warranty work then the razor is better. Otherwise not even close to comparable
 
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Hogg0494 said:
Hi hide,I have been running a gen 3 Razor 6-36 on my 6.5C and at 1k and beyond I am starting to have trouble seeing hits.Guess the old eyes are getting worse.Would upgrading to better glass in a Schmidt pm2 or a Zero comp help?wanted opinions on anyone who owns or used these more expensive optics comparing to a Razor.selling the Razor I would still have to choke up 2k or better. Wanted opinions its worth it. 2k is alot of ammo. Thanks
Click to expand...
Spend that $2K on lasik, and keep your Razor Gen3.
 
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No ZCO experience. However my Razor G3 and buddy's PMII (on loan to me for a few months while I do load development for him) are very close. I give the contrast to the S&B as the colors just seem a bit warmer to my eye. However they were extremely close in resolving the same moss patterns on stone at 180 yards. They were extremely close in just about everything except the contrast, and I think I like the eyebox just a touch better on the S&B.

I don't consider the S&B PMII to be much of an upgrade over the G3. Is it one? Probably. But if you are trying to resolve impacts at 1K and the G3 isn't getting you there...chances are the PMII won't either.
 
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With prolonged use in various conditions you would tell the difference between the ZCO and The G3. The G3 is a hell of a scope but no one beats ZCO on reticle choices and overall quality. The ZCO is the only scope I have ever own with a true to dial parallax. Optically am using the SB 6-36 right now and it’s the best I ever looked through. TT is great but not much better with that price tag.
 
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Islas82 said:
With prolonged use in various conditions you would tell the difference between the ZCO and The G3. The G3 is a hell of a scope but no one beats ZCO on reticle choices and overall quality. The ZCO is the only scope I have ever own with a true to dial parallax. Optically am using the SB 6-36 right now and it’s the best I ever looked through. TT is great but not much better with that price tag.
Click to expand...
Yea uh no on the zco quality and reticles...

I agree g3 razor punches way above it's weight. Performance wise the zco ain't that much better glass wise and the turrets imo are better on the g3 over a zco.

SB dtii+ are the best out there imo
 
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I have one ZCO 527 with MPCT2 and three gen-3 Razors.

Is the ZCO $1000 better than a G3 Razor? Not to me. That is not "just" my opinion. Since the G3 came out, there have been more than a few firing line comparisons involving a number of PRS leaderboard contenders. Agreement is that ZCO is slightly better, especially in low light. Feel is different. G3 turret clicks are more firm (early ones had very gummy turrets; I had two of those - both were returned for turret upgrade; now all three are great). My ZCO has the 15-mil turret so .1 clicks are close together and I find it too easy to over-adjust (why else would ZCO now offer 10-mil turrets).

Bottom line is, is the ZCO's slightly better clarity worth $1000 over the G3 Razor? Again, not to me, nor to most of the other guys who have compared them side by side.

One note about reticles: the 6-36x G3's reticle shrinks too much to use the subtensions at lower magnifications common to rimfire matches (especially NRL22). So the 5-27x ZCO is on my Vudoo and the G3 that was on the Vudoo is now on my 6BR/6.5CM.

Edit: It's pretty easy to find G3 Razors on sale for well under the usual $3k street price. Is the ZCO $1500 better than a G3? $1900? I don't regret buying my ZCO at all... way better than the G2 Razors I had at the time. G3... different story.

Edit 2: G3 ships with a sunshade and a throw lever. ZCO sunshade is $68 add-on. G3 is a low-end Lexus. ZCO is a higher-end BMW 5-series. My family all drive Bimmers. To us they're worth the $$ over very nice, capable cars. By the same token, some shooters may find the ZCO worth the extra $$ over G3 Razor.
 
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Huskydriver said:
Yea uh no on the zco quality and reticles...

I agree g3 razor punches way above it's weight. Performance wise the zco ain't that much better glass wise and the turrets imo are better on the g3 over a zco.

SB dtii+ are the best out there imo
Click to expand...
I guess I didn’t give the G3 much of a chance when I had it. I thought it was great optically but I got one of the first ones released with shitty turrets and got rid of it.
 
Islas82 said:
I guess I didn’t give the G3 much of a chance when I had it. I thought it was great optically but I got one of the first ones released with shitty turrets and got rid of it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the early G3 turrets were awful. A buddy of mine who was sponsored by Vortex recalled that early-release AMGs had the same issue, and Vortex corrected it. So it has been with the G3... I waited until the fix was confirmed effective and sent mine in. I finally sent my second early-release G3 back a few weeks ago; had it back in about two weeks - I'm pretty sure there was a weather delay for shipping and it was during SHOT.

There may be some early gummy ones still out there awaiting sale. Or used ones. Vortex will square them away.
 
I took my Razor G3 and Zco840 out on an overcast day. Both dialed at 25~28 magnification. 20”x20” white target set at 2100 yards. The zco makes it much easier to spot the target and debris. I don’t compare scope at close distance with a sunny day.
 
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Hogg0494 said:
Hi hide,I have been running a gen 3 Razor 6-36 on my 6.5C and at 1k and beyond I am starting to have trouble seeing hits.Guess the old eyes are getting worse.Would upgrading to better glass in a Schmidt pm2 or a Zero comp help?wanted opinions on anyone who owns or used these more expensive optics comparing to a Razor.selling the Razor I would still have to choke up 2k or better. Wanted opinions its worth it. 2k is alot of ammo. Thanks
Click to expand...
Not sure I can add any more than what others have already stated above with regard to the RG3 6-36 being pretty close to ZCO and TT, I think DownHillFromHere put it best and that mimics my experience with how good the RG3 is. You mention that you are "starting to have trouble seeing hits" does that mean you used to with this scope but now you're not? Could be atmospherics, could be your eyes, could be the scope. Double check and make sure your diopter didn't get adjusted, maybe have someone else look through the scope (maybe even find another RG3 to compare) and if anything might indicate scope send in to Vortex... but the RG3 has some of the best glass out there today so like others have said, yes, you'll see a slight increase in resolution, contrast, etc. with ZCO and TT but is it enough to make the price worth the difference?
 
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Poorboyr said:
The short answer is no. The Razor’s glass optically is better than the Schmidt’s. And the ZCO is only slightly better.

Maybe if you’re lucky a Theta may help, but I’m thinking no and that’s the best money can buy.
Click to expand...
This. I have owned them all (including TT). The razor punches so far above its price tag that you have to spend almost twice as much to really notice a difference.

I went from 2 ZCO to a ZCO and TT then to 3 Razor Gen 3's. The main reason was ZCO reticles were too thick to shoot on 20X+ and still be able to see the target and splash. Now the MPCT2X may have solved that problem, but I am going to wait until 2026 to buy another ZCO or Tangent when the FOV patent runs out with swaro. No point in investing now when its going to get replaced by superior models in a year or 2, and it will kill the resale of legacy TT/ZCO.

There are features I like better about the ZCO and Tangent but you really are not missing anything performance wise. Mirage performance is similar, eyebox, Color, Resolution ect are pretty similar. Most people cannot tell the difference.

Now compare a PM2 size by side and its dramatic. Much darker and not as good IQ. Maybe the new 6-36PM2 has better glass but the legacy PM2 5-25 and 3-27 is a step down from ZCO/TT/Gen3/Minox.

People will talk shit about razor warranty but they will get you a replacement in 3 days. Thats why we all have more than one scope. I know guys who have cracked ZCO's and fucked up Tangents, and the turn around time was no where near that fast. They are still great companies but not many compare to Vortex when it comes to getting stuff fixed/replaced.
 
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DeathBeforeDismount said:
I am going to wait until 2026 to buy another ZCO or Tangent when the FOV patent runs out with swaro. No point in investing now when its going to get replaced by superior models in a year or 2, and it will kill the resale of legacy TT/ZCO.
Click to expand...

Hadn't heard/read about this - please give more details...
 
Chickentoast said:
Hadn't heard/read about this - please give more details...
Click to expand...
www.snipershide.com

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

Apologies if this has been covered, but couldn’t find anything. https://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/new-products/6-36x56-pm-ii.html Weight (g) 940-995 Length (mm) 390 Tube diameter (mm) 34 Magnification 6-36 Objective lens diameter (mm) 56 Field of view (m) 7,3–1,25 Exit...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

somewhere buried in there is a big discussion about the big FOV difference between US and Euro models and the physical FOV limiter the scopes here have. without that patent a lot of scopes would already have the Kahles K328i FOV numbers
 
b6graham said:
www.snipershide.com

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

Apologies if this has been covered, but couldn’t find anything. https://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/new-products/6-36x56-pm-ii.html Weight (g) 940-995 Length (mm) 390 Tube diameter (mm) 34 Magnification 6-36 Objective lens diameter (mm) 56 Field of view (m) 7,3–1,25 Exit...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

somewhere buried in there is a big discussion about the big FOV difference between US and Euro models and the physical FOV limiter the scopes here have. without that patent a lot of scopes would already have the Kahles K328i FOV numbers
Click to expand...

Tldr version
....

Swaro has a stupid patent limiting fov for their competitors but their new kahles 328 exploits it.

All us models are complying but the patent runs out in two years
 
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hafejd30 said:
You know you’re a vortex owner when you own two scopes to swap them out when they go back and forth for warranty
Click to expand...

I guess I would prefer that over having to sue nightforce and have to sign an NDA lol... Least the glass and turrets are hands down better with the other brands.

If your buying Japanese might as well get the best and go vortex over NF
 
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Weren’t there two patents and it’s quite a bit longer than 2026 for the second?
 
LOL @ saying a FFP reticle is too thick to see splash at above 20x than below. That's not how it works.

Also, if you compare the MPCT2X reticle to the EBR7-D, the center dot and main stadia are .034 and .036 on ZCO vs .03 on the Vortex. Meaning at 100yds, the ZCO covers around 0.130" vs 0.108" for a difference of 0.022". At 1k yds, that means 1.296" vs 1.08" for a difference of 0.216".

And if the argument is dots vs lines in the tree....the MPCT3X reticle has .03 sized dots where the Vortex has .06 dots small dots. Then the ZCO has some open circles vs the Vortex .09 size large dots. The end result is a similar FOV.



To put that in context, you're being given advice by a mid pack shooter or worse that he chooses a reticle based on the difference between .03 and .036 as well as some dots vs lines that are also negligible in the difference.

It's perfectly fine to say you prefer the look of one over the other, but stating that one "covers too much above 20x" when the differences are that small is just ridiculous.
 
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Rio Precision Gunworks said:
LOL @ saying a FFP reticle is too thick to see splash at above 20x than below. That's not how it works.

Also, if you compare the MPCT2X reticle to the EBR7-D, the center dot and main stadia are .034 and .036 on ZCO vs .03 on the Vortex. Meaning at 100yds, the ZCO covers around 0.130" vs 0.108" for a difference of 0.022". At 1k yds, that means 1.296" vs 1.08" for a difference of 0.216".

And if the argument is dots vs lines in the tree....the MPCT3X reticle has .03 sized dots where the Vortex has .06 dots small dots. Then the ZCO has some open circles vs the Vortex .09 size large dots. The end result is a similar FOV.



To put that in context, you're being given advice by a mid pack shooter or worse that he chooses a reticle based on the difference between .03 and .036 as well as some dots vs lines that are also negligible in the difference.

It's perfectly fine to say you prefer the look of one over the other, but stating that one "covers too much above 20x" when the differences are that small is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...
It's called preference you fucking retard. All you do is run your fuck hole like a petty little bitch. Grow a set of balls, show up sometime, or shut the fuck up. You aren't even arguing the correct points, just trying to argue with me for no reason because I proved your a pussy to everyone.

If I want the opinion of some low rent shitty rimfire trainer / border patrol dicksucker who has multiple failed businesses, I will let you know. Whats your supporter account going to be next year Davey?

You aren't even a midpack shooter because you don't show up. Your scores are from like 5+ years ago and don't mean jack shit. Just about every "midpacker" today would push your shit in... and you know it. It's why you are scared to show up.

Nows where you tell me I'm on ignore yet you somehow respond to every post I make in the 3rd person while being too much or a pussy to respond directly. Autism, fear or a little of both. Either way shut the fuck up or do something about it. Your shit is tired.

8eogn0.jpg


Oh look Davey I found your Score burred on PRS website from the 2022 Texas match. You aren't even a midpacker. 46% at a 2 day? 46% at one of the biggest meatball 2 day matches of the year? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I probably would have stayed home this year too. The embarrassment of me doubling your score would probably force you to make another account.


#156David Thomas Open 6153 77.00046.951
 
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Under perfect conditions, I can resolve 6mm bullet holes in white paper at 736 yards with the G3. I don’t think the G3 is to blame for not seeing impact/misses regardless of distance.
 
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Hickswr said:
Under perfect conditions, I can resolve 6mm bullet holes in white paper at 736 yards with the G3. I don’t think the G3 is to blame for not seeing impact/misses regardless of distance.
Click to expand...
Thats not what anyone was saying. Rio is just trying to start shit again for no reason.

What I was saying is I switched from ZCO (MPCT3 and X) to G3 razor for a thinner reticle. Same thing could have been accomplished moving to a TT.

ZCO with the circles covers up more of the FOV. In heavy mirrage where you need to back the mag down, the thicker reticle covers up more of the target area, especially with a thicker reticle. With the super small targets we shoot at now, it can be hard to resolve them. "Opening" up the reticle makes it easier for my eyes to see the target.

Like most people starting out shooting PRS, I ran mostly on 12-14x power. This is to keep a big FOV so you can find targets easier. As you get better and are able to find targets with your eye, then place bag/gun in line you can shoot on higher power and not be fishing for targets. I think most PRS shooters follow this progression and everyone I have talked to about it says something similar. Alot of the top guys shoot around 20x so they can resolve plate hits for adjustment. It makes alot of sense.

The point was ZCO older reticles cover more of the target area up than a cleaner, thinner reticle like the one in the G3. Another good option would be the Gen3XR Fine, or even the MR4 if you can deal with minox issues.

Its all preference. We have different eyes, we see things differently and we like things differently. Some guys like those big reticles because they shoot on 14x. Some guys like the thinner ones because they shoot on higher power. Some like trees, some dont. Its all preference. Its why we dont all own the same scope and reticle.
 
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Thats not what anyone was saying. Rio is just trying to start shit again for no reason.

What I was saying is I switched from ZCO (MPCT3 and X) to G3 razor for a thinner reticle. Same thing could have been accomplished moving to a TT.

ZCO with the circles covers up more of the FOV. In heavy mirrage where you need to back the mag down, the thicker reticle covers up more of the target area, especially with a thicker reticle. With the super small targets we shoot at now, it can be hard to resolve them. "Opening" up the reticle makes it easier for my eyes to see the target.

Like most people starting out shooting PRS, I ran mostly on 12-14x power. This is to keep a big FOV so you can find targets easier. As you get better and are able to find targets with your eye, then place bag/gun in line you can shoot on higher power and not be fishing for targets. I think most PRS shooters follow this progression and everyone I have talked to about it says something similar. Alot of the top guys shoot around 20x so they can resolve plate hits for adjustment. It makes alot of sense.

The point was ZCO older reticles cover more of the target area up than a cleaner, thinner reticle like the one in the G3. Another good option would be the Gen3XR Fine, or even the MR4 if you can deal with minox issues.

Its all preference. We have different eyes, we see things differently and we like things differently. Some guys like those big reticles because they shoot on 14x. Some guys like the thinner ones because they shoot on higher power. Some like trees, some dont. Its all preference. Its why we dont all own the same scope and reticle.
Click to expand...
My reply directed at the OPs original question. Which was 💯 about the glass quality and nothing to do with reticles.

“Hi hide,I have been running a gen 3 Razor 6-36 on my 6.5C and at 1k and beyond I am starting to have trouble seeing hits.Guess the old eyes are getting worse.Would upgrading to better glass in a Schmidt pm2 or a Zero comp help?
 
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DeathBeforeDismount said:
It's called preference you fucking retard. All you do is run your fuck hole like a petty little bitch. Grow a set of balls, show up sometime, or shut the fuck up. You aren't even arguing the correct points, just trying to argue with me for no reason because I proved your a pussy to everyone.

If I want the opinion of some low rent shitty rimfire trainer / border patrol dicksucker who has multiple failed businesses, I will let you know. Whats your supporter account going to be next year Davey?

You aren't even a midpack shooter because you don't show up. Your scores are from like 5+ years ago and don't mean jack shit. Just about every "midpacker" today would push your shit in... and you know it. It's why you are scared to show up.

Nows where you tell me I'm on ignore yet you somehow respond to every post I make in the 3rd person while being too much or a pussy to respond directly. Autism, fear or a little of both. Either way shut the fuck up or do something about it. Your shit is tired.

View attachment 8355324

Oh look Davey I found your Score burred on PRS website from the 2022 Texas match. You aren't even a midpacker. 46% at a 2 day? 46% at one of the biggest meatball 2 day matches of the year? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I probably would have stayed home this year too. The embarrassment of me doubling your score would probably force you to make another account.


#156David Thomas Open 6153 77.00046.951
Click to expand...
Hahaha

I was wrong about you I think we could be friends.


Also lol at DbagThomas the supposed expert

46 f ing percent ?

Last 2 day I shot I did 67% and I only shoot a few matches and have close to zero time to practice. And shoot a loser rifle and caliber.


Lol. Empty arrogance strikes again
 
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BurtG said:
Hahaha

I was wrong about you I think we could be friends.


Also lol at DbagThomas the supposed expert

46 f ing percent ?

Last 2 day I shot I did 67% and I only shoot a few matches and have close to zero time to practice. And shoot a loser rifle and caliber.


Lol. Empty arrogance strikes again
Click to expand...
You gotta tag em Burt if your gonna blast on em
 
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BurtG said:
Hahaha

I was wrong about you I think we could be friends.
Click to expand...
You‘re a little late Burt, DBD has been forced to leave the building, again.
BurtG said:
Last 2 day I shot I did 67% and I only shoot a few matches and have close to zero time to practice. And shoot a loser rifle and caliber.
Click to expand...
Why would you be shooting a “loser rifle and caliber” when you own an $80,000 NV?

www.snipershide.com

SOLD - Recon V $73,500

Like brand new cooled thermal binocular. Can watch trace. $73500 https://www.flir.com/products/recon-v/
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
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BurtG said:
I don’t need to justify anything to you
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You know you’re right you don’t need to justify anything to me. It was just a comical and obtuse comment from you to have a loser rifle and caliber to compete with, in your situation.

I was waiting for someone to offer you: “45,000?” That would not have made you feel good, would it for your $80K toy? Maybe put yourself on the receiving end and see what you think. Like your offers, it’s clear from some sellers your offers are unwelcome. Then looking for discount ZCO certs...

Perhaps someday Mr. GOLDEN TICKET HOLDER you will realize that some of the low priced deals you snag that others cannot afford to pay more for that you laugh about because you just like to buy below market rates; is in stark contrast to how you financially masturbate for bespoke items, it’s unfortunate.
 
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PropWash said:
You know you’re right you don’t need to justify anything to me. It was just a comical and obtuse comment from you to have a loser rifle and caliber to compete with, in your situation.

I was waiting for someone to offer you: “45,000?” That would not have made you feel good, would it for your $80K toy? Maybe put yourself on the receiving end and see what you think. Like your offers, it’s clear from some sellers your offers are unwelcome. Then looking for discount ZCO certs...

Perhaps someday Mr. GOLDEN TICKET HOLDER you will realize that some of the low priced deals you snag that others cannot afford to pay more for that you laugh about because you just like to buy below market rates; is in stark contrast to how you financially masturbate for bespoke items, it’s unfortunate.
Click to expand...
A lot to break down there.

1) you either been here a while or are stalkerish or?,

2) golden ticket refers to bans not money

3)
40A6633A-8509-4EDF-81A0-7A981E5CF875.gif
 
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Wooooooooowwww

www.snipershide.com

Firearms - KAC SR25 6.5 CM

Would like to sell my factory 22" 6.5 CM SR25. I purchased it from a close friend, who bought it from Pre Sample. It has never been fired. I just find myself shooting my LMT and AI and this is a redundancy. Open to trades. I've since added the tuape A2 from my issued M110, only thing I've done...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com

Rent free space in peoples minds

C8565C3F-08CD-4BAD-ADC4-E8011CC21247.jpeg


CA19336F-5CAF-4B2F-99A2-418F2B4349A5.jpeg





You know why I can’t shoot many matches or practice much. I’m too busy working. Maybe get a real job. Work 80-100 hours. Or just keep being a blue line parasite
 
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BurtG said:
1) you either been here a while or are stalkerish or
Click to expand...
I get ad feeds like anyone who activates that option. I don’t follow your posts, if I come upon them by accident when I read a thread, that’s just the unfortunate odds at work.
 
PropWash said:
I get ad feeds like anyone who activates that option. I don’t follow your posts, if I come upon them by accident when I read a thread, that’s just the unfortunate odds at work.
Click to expand...
You are bringing up things word for word from a for sale add from over a year ago.




Get
Help
 
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BurtG said:
Rent free space in peoples minds
Click to expand...
From a post 8 1/2 months ago… 🤦 No Burt I don’t think about you from then or in the present. Only when one of your ads comes in the feed and the few seconds until I delete it is there any reminder of you.
 
BurtG said:
You are bringing up things word for word from a for sale add from over a year ago.
Click to expand...
The ad you quoted above is from “June 13, 2023” are you challenged with basic math? Do you see the date in the post above? That is not quite 8.5 months ago.
 
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