New Trimmer Advice

Deltagunner00 said:

Currently: I am now using the LE Wilson trimmer followed up by the RCBS trim center to chamfer and debur. Works fine but just so slow.

Upgrade: Looking at possibly a Giraud or maybe just the Tri Way and a cheap bench grinder from Harbor Freight.

Not looking to shell out the money for the Hendo Gen 3 right now as I don’t think I reload quite enough to justify it.

I probably trim up batches of 200-250 at a time. Sometimes it’s just a quick run through a batch of 100 6BR cases.

Focusing on 6BR right now, but do load for 308, 243, 223 and sometimes Grendel.

Just looking for any advice to swing me one way or another. Been using current setup for a long time and ready to upgrade and be done with it. Not upgrade and wish I would’ve spent more. Buy once, cry once.

Thanks!

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I reload for 2 calibers and I use a Tri-Way for one and the Trim-it II for the other. The Trim-it uses the same cutter and the Tri-way and it much easier to make adjustments.

For 3 or more calibers that you're reloading for, I'd recommend going with the Giraud Power Trimmer, particular when doing 250 cases or so. I doubt very much you'd be sorry for gong this way (like, buy once, cry once).

Recommend anyone seeking more efficient trim, chamfer and deburr operations to check some You Tube videos of the Henderson Gen3 motorized trimmer.

itsagaas said:

Recommend anyone seeking more efficient trim, chamfer and deburr operations to check some You Tube videos of the Henderson Gen3 motorized trimmer.

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Do any of those videos address the issues some people have for the pilot galling the inside of the necks?

Deltagunner00 said:

Not looking to shell out the money for the Hendo Gen 3 right now as I don’t think I reload quite enough to justify it.

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I didn't either until I got one. It makes trimming go by so much faster and more accurately.

I like my Giraud. My hands no longer hurt cutting all the brass on Forster trimmers.

+1 for giraud. Just use hornady or some locking collar

straightshooter1 said:

Do any of those videos address the issues some people have for the pilot galling the inside of the necks?

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Thanks for mentioning that. Will check it out. Have not had that issue thus far after a few thousand pieces of brass.

I’ve owned both the giraud and the Henderson gen 3. Both are fantastic. I do prefer the Henderson though

What about the world’s finest trimmer 2? Anyone care for them?

The guy that makes the Ugly Annealer started making a trimmer that is an improved version of the WFT/Triway. It’s much easier to adjust than the other two.

Simonsza1 said:

What about the world’s finest trimmer 2? Anyone care for them?

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Not particularly. It's basically a 1/4 or 3/8 4 flute end mill in a holder. Works okay, but cuts the end of the case square, so inside chamfering would be an additional step. I think I've got one or two in a box somewhere.
The inside/ outside chamfer is the advantage of the Giraud and Henderson.

The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate

There are a couple of issues, however

You will definitely want to buy a cutterhead for each caliber so you don’t have to move the little carbide blade around and set it each time which would be a complete pain in the ass

As mentioned above, you want to put a lock on your shell holder so that the depth is set automatically when you screw it in each time

For most of the shell holders he sells for each caliber, you need a fully sized case, or it won’t fit since it indexes off of the shoulder and part of the body of the case must be inserted also. On almost all of my calibers, the shell won’t fit, unless it has been full length resized.

Some guys have complained about cramping up of their hands and getting sore when doing trimming. A very easy way around. This is to wear a glove, especially a leather one. The additional padding helps as does the improved grip and it stops your hands from getting dirty also.

In this video, the Giraud is 50% faster.

It also does 50 BMG, which is one of the reasons I will be keeping mine

secondofangle2 said:

The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate

There are a couple of issues, however

You will definitely want to buy a cutterhead for each caliber so you don’t have to move the little carbide blade around and set it each time which would be a complete pain in the ass

As mentioned above, you want to put a lock on your shell holder so that the depth is set automatically when you screw it in each time

For most of the shell holders he sells for each caliber, you need a fully sized case, or it won’t fit since it indexes off of the shoulder and part of the body of the case must be inserted also. On almost all of my calibers, the shell won’t fit, unless it has been full length resized.

Some guys have complained about cramping up of their hands and getting sore when doing trimming. A very easy way around. This is to wear a glove, especially a leather one. The additional padding helps as does the improved grip and it stops your hands from getting dirty also.

In this video, the Giraud is 50% faster.

It also does 50 BMG, which is one of the reasons I will be keeping mine

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I second this. I love my Giraud but, as noted, your hand gets worked and if you have arthritis in the thumb joint and wrist as I do it can get annoying after 200 cases. But as noted a glove helps.

The Giraud indexes off the case shoulder which I believe is the way to go. The Henderson is a fine machine but it indexes off the case base. This is not a problem if your sizing die is bumping the shoulders very consistently.

The wtf 2 indexes off the shoulder as well I believe. I have cts trimmers for everything I reload except for two calibers I added recently. The cts leaves the mouth square also as kindabity referenced the wtf does. CTs doesn’t seem to be in business anymore which is why I’m thinking wtf for these two new calibers. Buy one and then a few inserts should get me rolling.

I have a Henderson, and like it and would buy it again.

I recently discovered my outside deburring bit was bad/dull/who knows, on my case prep station, I adjusted the blades/mechanical stop, on my Henderson trimmer to NOT trim, rather just debur and chamfer, and I was able to hammer through a load of brass quicker than I can on that case prep station I have…. I don’t know if the Henderson is designed for that but it worked great.

secondofangle2 said:

The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate

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The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:




Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.

Rocketmandb said:

The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:

View attachment 8368518
View attachment 8368519

Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.

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That's a good synopsis.

It'd be interesting if that difference in seating resistance was explored more. As mentioned, somethings going on that produces that "initial bump" for the Giraud, like a difference in the chamfer as you elude to, which could be due to a poorly cut cutting blade or who knows what else. Makes me wonder if all the Giraud cutting blades produce this issue.

I like my Giraud for that consistent neck length, which I feel is more important that OAL, as it's relationship to the bearing surface determines when the blowby begins. That blowby effects timing of the pressure spike, which I see as having an definite effect on velocity. Therefore I want that to be as consistent as possible. Does that make a noticeable difference? I don't know. If it does in any way, I doubt it'd be so for only the highest competitive level where .001" can make the difference on paper as to who's won the contest. That's not me, but I like to do all that I can to eliminate, or minimize, as many variables as I can so I don't have an excuse to point to other than my poor shooting mechanics or wind reading.

I've never tried a Henderson.

Love my Giraud. It's efficient and easy to use. As others have mentioned, you need to get dedicated cutter heads and lock rings.

I really like my Giraud. I picked up this tool to keep my fingers from getting sore.

This topic has been discussed at length. I bought a Henderdon to compare to my Giraud. I couldn’t get rid of the Henderson fast enough. If you want perfection get a giraud. If you want marred inner necks and uneven chamfers get the Henderson.

21st century mini lathe and 3 way cutter

^ #extremeoverkill

Stavey said:

If you want marred inner necks and uneven chamfers get the Henderson.

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I've used extensively and have neither of these.

Rocketmandb said:

The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:

View attachment 8368518
View attachment 8368519

Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.

Click to expand...

With your Henderson, have you noticed the need to burnish/clean the pilots occasionally? From time to time I'll notice that it's scratching the neck. Only once have I seen it really impact the AMP seating graphs significantly. Usually its just some mild variation in the graph. And I haven't tested anything on paper, though I'm assuming it will make no difference.

Rocketmandb said:

I've used extensively and have neither of these.

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Same. Most uneven issues I've seen myself or with others is not being careful to make sure the base of the cast is in the collet correctly. Or not allowing it to cut long enough to square the neck. Though I'd think there's some point where if there's enough runout in the neck in reference to the base of case that it could cut uneven.

This is what mine look like when run properly through Henderson. Looks the same around the entire neck if you rotate it.

You can see some of the rings inside the neck I mentioned above though.

Rio Precision Gunworks said:

With your Henderson, have you noticed the need to burnish/clean the pilots occasionally? From time to time I'll notice that it's scratching the neck. Only once have I seen it really impact the AMP seating graphs significantly. Usually its just some mild variation in the graph. And I haven't tested anything on paper, though I'm assuming it will make no difference.

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Do you lube prior to mandrel/trim? I end up doing two applications of moly - once before those two functions, and once after.

EDIT: I didn't answer the question. I have not run into the need to clean the pilots other than to wipe off residual lube after I'm done.

p.s. We need to start a thread to share plots from the AMP Press. Would be beneficial to see what others are getting with similar calibers and how they're getting them.

Man your inside and outside chamfer is practically making a knife’s edge, interesting. I do not chamfer that aggressively. I do just a touch both inside and out. Obviously both ways work but interesting how sharp an edge you cut to. We all have our ways don’t we!

Simonsza1 said:

Man your inside and outside chamfer is practically making a knife’s edge, interesting. I do not chamfer that aggressively. I do just a touch both inside and out. Obviously both ways work but interesting how sharp an edge you cut to. We all have our ways don’t we!

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It's just magnified a ton. You can see the mouth is flat and not a knife edge.

Also, this is the way Henderson sends them if you opt for them to be setup prior to shipping.