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The most inherently accurate pistol cartridge? Intended picture thread.

JR1200W3

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Apr 21, 2020
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Background: Ive recently gotten some nice 1911's and 2011's and have gone down a rabbit hole of 25yd accuracy load development. I built a 10mm 2011 over the last year as a subsonic, suppressed host and the first load I threw together shot consistent, repeated 1" or better 5rd groups at 25. Suppressed. That's not particularly amazing but it's pretty good, especially considering how much work I put into it and the fact that there's a 8" suppressor hanging off the end of it, lol. Not to mention the fact that I built it and believe me, I ain't no gunsmith. I recently picked up a Staccato XC and after seeing Accuracy X's YouTube videos, and reading a thread on factory ammo accuracy tests on 1911Addicts, I decided I wanted to see how accurate a pistol made to be an action shooting blaster could be so I started doing 9mm load development with about 5 different powders, and 8 different bullets. I've made good progress but I'm not yet finished. I can shoot 5rd 1" groups but not with the repetitive predictability of the 10mm. And my goal is two or three 10rd groups in a row at 1" or better.

Problem Statement: The last couple of days of shooting, I've started to wonder which cartridge is inherently more prone to accuracy at some sort of distance. 9mm? 38Super? 40S&W? 10mm? 45ACP?

(Again, I don't really want to be exclusive but I would appreciate it if we limit it to the Big 5 competition and SD rounds and Semi-Auto guns or else we'll need to pack our bags for the rabbit holes, also not helpful if some sort of amateur historian/ maven type brings up the 32 SuperSnot invented in 1965 by COL Ned Flanders, only 8 barrels were chambered and it was made by necking up the 22LR and soaking it in platypus feces.)

Challenge: State your position and support it with pictures of possible. I asked a similar question on 1911Addicts about known accuracy loads for 9mm and there were very few definitive opinions, much less substantiated load data by way of groups on paper. A lot of, "4.2gr of Ignito under a 176gr Precision Peephole flat nose shoots great out of my guns". I'm not trying to throw shade on anyone, but pictures in a thread just make it more interesting and impressive. There's value in people participating and some folks have great write-ups, but pictures really add to the enjoyment of the thread.

Motivator:




Where's the @Molon of pisterlo's? 🤣

ETA: extra internet points for anything shot from a ransom rest!
 
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I'll lead by example.


10MM. 200gr Zero TCFM, 6.4gr Longshot, 1.270" COAL, Kart barrel, JEMs slide and frame, built by a moron. 25yds
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9mm, Staccato XC w/ Cheeley SS grip module and Everglades flat trigger. 25yds (4" discs)
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45rd composite group
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First load development range session, lol. Came a long way in the last couple of days.
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I don't have pictures to back it up, but when a friend was shooting NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup),he was shooting a custom 1911 with a Bar Sto match target barrel in .357 Sig with Zero 125 gr JHP bullets. I don't know the powder charge.
He would routinely shoot 1-1/2 inch groups at 50 yards from a prone position. He was using a red dot sight.
He was a NRA High Master and placed in the top twenty several times.
 
No pictures or extensive shooting to back it up, but I'd also think it's a bottleneck case. Just because there is less tolerance stackup, and therefore the bullet *should on average* be more consistently placed in the chamber relative to the lands. Curious what others say.
 
No pictures or extensive shooting to back it up, but I'd also think it's a bottleneck case. Just because there is less tolerance stackup, and therefore the bullet *should on average* be more consistently placed in the chamber relative to the lands. Curious what others say.
And how do we prove or know that? Who's got the data to back it up? 😁

Eager to see someone's results.
 
.451 200 gr SWC either Bullseye or Titegroup different charges obviously, Kart barrel. What do most bullseye shooters use ? either 185 or 200 gr SWC over Bullseye.
 
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Years ago when I first got into 1911s, I went after load development like I did with rifles. I loaded on a single stage press, weighed every charge, measured everything I could, shot groups off a rest in .2gr increments.

It certainly took most of the fun out of pistol reloading for me pretty quickly. However, I have still ventured back into doing that routine from time to time with a new acquisition for one reason or another.

I have not found a certain cartridge that I would declare as more inherently accurate. I have had more luck finding the tightest-shooting load quickly with the .40 Short & Weak though. My sample size of 2 pistols is too small, but my first Kimber was actually a .40, and with my first powder and bullet (Bullseye and 180gr Rainier TMJ) it would one-hole groups at 15 yards like the best Nighthawks...reliability was crap though and I sold it.

My most recent attempt was my 10mm Wilson Combat CQB. Unfortunately I have not had the same luck with a hunting load. It shoots a plinking load just fine, but I'm thinking that the 200gr XTP just isn't something it really likes. I actually gave up on that project (deer pistol) about 2 years ago.

My .45, and 9mm experiences are about equal when loading for my Ed Brown, Les Baer and CZ stuff. Surprisingly, I have had some amazing and horrible accuracy results with the same .357 revolver - depending on components it is night and day on target.

Sorry, no photos. Just a lot of load data tucked away in a folder.
 
Years ago when I first got into 1911s, I went after load development like I did with rifles. I loaded on a single stage press, weighed every charge, measured everything I could, shot groups off a rest in .2gr increments.

It certainly took most of the fun out of pistol reloading for me pretty quickly. However, I have still ventured back into doing that routine from time to time with a new acquisition for one reason or another.

I have not found a certain cartridge that I would declare as more inherently accurate. I have had more luck finding the tightest-shooting load quickly with the .40 Short & Weak though. My sample size of 2 pistols is too small, but my first Kimber was actually a .40, and with my first powder and bullet (Bullseye and 180gr Rainier TMJ) it would one-hole groups at 15 yards like the best Nighthawks...reliability was crap though and I sold it.

My most recent attempt was my 10mm Wilson Combat CQB. Unfortunately I have not had the same luck with a hunting load. It shoots a plinking load just fine, but I'm thinking that the 200gr XTP just isn't something it really likes. I actually gave up on that project (deer pistol) about 2 years ago.

My .45, and 9mm experiences are about equal when loading for my Ed Brown, Les Baer and CZ stuff. Surprisingly, I have had some amazing and horrible accuracy results with the same .357 revolver - depending on components it is night and day on target.

Sorry, no photos. Just a lot of load data tucked away in a folder.
I've never bothered to dig into precision reloading for pistol before. I started reloading by loading 44mag on my dad's press. I've reloaded pistol for many years but never pursued accuracy because I just didn't need it in any practical competition. But doing load development for 9mm has shown me how much difference and margin there is on the table. If you choose to reach out and take it. And the thing is, it's not hard. Same process as reloading PR. Same brass, powder ladder, seating depth ladder, narrow in on the combinations that show promise. Confirm. Reconfirm. Try a bigger sample size to re-reconfirm. That's pretty much it. But I'm just now starting to play with taper crimp like neck tension. Everything I've loaded for accuracy so far has been without a crimp
 
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Sorry this was rushed due to the weather.
35 yards
45 acp
Les Baer Concept V (5" Stainless)
Factory fiber optic sights
Used my BOG Deathgrip as a rest for pistol.
The factory Winchester shot like crap but my handloads did pretty well.
 

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Great thread @JR1200W3


I hope to contribute when I get further into pistol reloading again.

9mm, .38 Super, ..38 Special, 45acp & .44mag will be my initial cartridges.

So far I've has some promising results with:
  • 125gr TC bullets from Blue Bullets over Sport Pistol
  • 150gr lswc bullets from Bayou Bullets over AA7
  • 200gr lswc bullets from Blue Bullets over HP38

It has been slow going due to getting the room for my reading gear cleared out of the existing stuff that is in there to make room for benches, press and storage cabinets for powder, primers, brass, Dillon toolheads, cleaning rods, tools, etc...

Using the Co-Ax now, getting dialed in on recipes.....then planning to transfer the settings over to the Dillons with dedicated toolheads for each cartridge. Son will be taking some of the furniture that is currently in that room when he moves into his new house next month.



I picked up a jug of VVN310 at the recommendation of some of the longterm handloaders over on 1911forum. Now I need to get some 185gr lscw and see if I can get some of the results like they've assured me are possible. Clone load of Army AMU ???
 
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If I can do this by tossing some random components together and shooting freestyle at 25 yards, I'm absolutely not going to waste my time doing load development when I can use that time to actually get better at shooting.

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If I can do this by tossing some random components together and shooting freestyle at 25 yards, I'm absolutely not going to waste my time doing load development when I can use that time to actually get better at shooting.

View attachment 8376280
Well, you do need to get better at something because that looks pretty ugly. Reloading or marksmanship. Maybe both.
 
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If I can do this by tossing some random components together and shooting freestyle at 25 yards, I'm absolutely not going to waste my time doing load development when I can use that time to actually get better at shooting.

View attachment 8376280

That's absolutely true. I mostly abandoned my attempts at "precision reloading" for a pistol because I can't realize much of the difference in my shooting ability. If you give me a 1" gun - I'll probably shoot about 4" with it at 25 yards if I'm standing and not sitting behind a rest. That's a lot of time wasted in reloading for no appreciable results.

Now to slightly contradict: I do have the capability to shoot a pistol or revolver well enough that I can tell the difference between quality ammo and junk ammo.

I have found that some of my old revolvers in particular, love a certain bullet just like a rifle, and if they hate a load it looks like trash on paper/steel. They aren't junk revolvers either. My 1994 King Cobra Enhanced will shoot that 4" @ 25 offhand (I can't do any better unless it's a lucky string) for an entire box of 158gr Hardcast with 7.5gr Unique (I inherited about 25lbs of Unique). Put in a .38 Special load with a 125gr plated bullet over 5.5gr Unique in that same King Cobra and it will literally spray to every edge of a 2/3 IPSC at 25 yards.

^ Swap those loads in my 27-2, and the results swap. I honestly thought my old Smith had something come apart the first time I tried that 158gr load. 😄

Anyways its a long post to say that I agree with you in part, and if your goal is reducing split times while shooting silhouettes at 7-10 yards then I agree with you completely. I'm more into shooting steel at 15 - 100 yards with my stuff out here on the ranch...so if I can control a little bit of that accuracy factor by ensuring that I'm not shooting junk ammo or a load that a particular handgun hates, then I'll do it.
 
I've never bothered to dig into precision reloading for pistol before. I started reloading by loading 44mag on my dad's press. I've reloaded pistol for many years but never pursued accuracy because I just didn't need it in any practical competition. But doing load development for 9mm has shown me how much difference and margin there is on the table. If you choose to reach out and take it. And the thing is, it's not hard. Same process as reloading PR. Same brass, powder ladder, seating depth ladder, narrow in on the combinations that show promise. Confirm. Reconfirm. Try a bigger sample size to re-reconfirm. That's pretty much it. But I'm just now starting to play with taper crimp like neck tension. Everything I've loaded for accuracy so far has been without a crimp

I have a CZ TS2 that absolutely has a preference for N330 over Titegroup. Same bullet, nearly same velocity, but repeatedly better results.

I haven’t played with it that much but I will agree that changing depths, charge weights, etc... can make a difference. How much? I don't know. If I can't easily see the first outing, I usually give up. I spend way too much time already doing that with rifle shooting and I'd never leave the reloading bench if I got that into it for pistol too.
 
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If I can do this by tossing some random components together and shooting freestyle at 25 yards, I'm absolutely not going to waste my time doing load development when I can use that time to actually get better at shooting.

View attachment 8376280
(y) (y)(y)

25yd nonsupported headshots……damn good shooting, in my opinion…..especially if done at a swift rate of fire.
 
One thing I've found to help my 55yo uncorrected vision........red dot sights on my gats.


With irons (my preferred sights are black ledge rears & gold bead or fiber optic fronts) I am okay to 10-15 yards.....but when it extends beyond that distance my visual sharpness is as fukked up as a soup sammich.


Red dots allow me to keep my focus on the target....an allow the red dot to simply appear and hover over the target that I remain focused on throughout the shot & recoil recovery.
Much faster and tighter groups result.....for me, anyway.

Love the red dots and back up sights.
I have them on many striker guns, DA/SA guns and on my 2011's.

I can't bring myself to put them on my 1911s. Not going to have any of them cut for optics.


My very best shooting has been done with my Staccato P w/ RMR & my Nighthawk TRS-C w/ RMR.


That P is a rock solid gun.

I wish I'd not ordered the TRS-C or bought the P....and had all those funds back......and spent it on a single XC and a shitload of ammo & mags.
 
Anyways its a long post to say that I agree with you in part, and if your goal is reducing split times while shooting silhouettes at 7-10 yards then I agree with you completely.

I haven't seen a shot yet in nearly 5 years of constant USPSA matches that can't be made with ammo tossed together from a middle of the road recipe and seating depth selected to make sure all rounds pass a plunk test.

And that includes partials and mini poppers at distances between 25 and 40 yards with the clock running.

I'm never shooting silhouettes. I'm shooting strictly for A zone hits as fast as I possibly can, unless I'm very pressed for time then I'll take an A and a close C and move on.
 
If you're a precision bullseye shooter, then pistol load development makes sense.

If you're a reloading nerd, pistol load development makes sense.

If you use a pistol for practical purposes, there are better uses of your time.
 
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LOL sure......looks pretty ugly for .7 - .8 splits.
But muh' splits!

There's no accountability on that target. How are we supposed to know how many rounds are supposed to be on that? How many missed?

You view the world through a soda straw. You have the most limited perspective and experience I've seen. The art of shooting a pistol isn't limited to USPSA and your preference for a sport. Couple that with having an ugly personality and you're insufferable on every thread you participate in. Pretty much going around and crapping everywhere you transit. I'm guessing you drive a 15yr old Nissan compact truck and have at least one adult child that no longer speaks to you. You are exceedingly average. The number of middle aged, fat, men with shitty outlooks on life is extremely high.

Now shut the fuck up and GTFO of this thread.
 
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But muh' splits!

There's no accountability on that target. How are we supposed to know how many rounds are supposed to be on that? How many missed?

You view the world through a soda straw. You have the most limited perspective and experience I've seen. The art of shooting a pistol isn't limited to USPSA and your preference for a sport. Couple that with having an ugly personality and you're insufferable on every thread you participate in. Pretty much going around and crapping everywhere you transit. I'm guessing you drive a 15yr old Nissan compact truck and have at least one adult child that no longer speaks to you. You are exceedingly average. The number of middle aged, fat, men with shitty outlooks on life is extremely high.

Now shut the fuck up and GTFO of this thread.
...and wears pink shorts on a fat ass . :)
 
But muh' splits!

There's no accountability on that target. How are we supposed to know how many rounds are supposed to be on that? How many missed?

You view the world through a soda straw. You have the most limited perspective and experience I've seen. The art of shooting a pistol isn't limited to USPSA and your preference for a sport. Couple that with having an ugly personality and you're insufferable on every thread you participate in. Pretty much going around and crapping everywhere you transit. I'm guessing you drive a 15yr old Nissan compact truck and have at least one adult child that no longer speaks to you. You are exceedingly average. The number of middle aged, fat, men with shitty outlooks on life is extremely high.

Now shut the fuck up and GTFO of this thread.

We found the C class for life shooter ^ Why don't you show us your shooting? Video please. Match results would be nice too.

Your definition of shooting a pistol seems to be bolting it to a machine and pressing the trigger with a stick.....LOL

Oh and if you're ever feeling froggy with a pistol look me up. I won't disappoint you.
 
We found the C class for life shooter ^ Why don't you show us your shooting? Video please. Match results would be nice too.

Your definition of shooting a pistol seems to be bolting it to a machine and pressing the trigger with a stick.....LOL

Oh and if you're ever feeling froggy with a pistol look me up. I won't disappoint you.
And that's your only definition of shooting because it informs everything you know about shooting. You have no other experience or perspective. You are a fat, miserable, cynical, 50yr old that noone likes. I have probably been shooting a pistol longer than you in a nother discipline and trade. Hosers gets it. As a student of the gun he is not limited to just one league, discipline, and type of pistol like you. You are both single-dimensional and arrogant. Truly a small person. You have nothing to add to the thread. You do not address the main problem statement posed. You do not have input on that. You are just traveling and shitting. So again get the fuck out of this thread. Seriously, fuck off.
 
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I don't have pictures to back it up, but when a friend was shooting NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup),he was shooting a custom 1911 with a Bar Sto match target barrel in .357 Sig with Zero 125 gr JHP bullets. I don't know the powder charge.
He would routinely shoot 1-1/2 inch groups at 50 yards from a prone position. He was using a red dot sight.
He was a NRA High Master and placed in the top twenty several times.
I was hoping someone else would mention .357 Sig. One of my favorite rounds. 👍🏼
 
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Luckily i dont give a shit about your opinion of me


I was wondering long it would take for that claim to come out. LOL

Enjoy your thread
You're not welcome in this thread. Stop posting here and leave.

You've been an ass too many times.
 
I have a CZ TS2 that absolutely has a preference for N330 over Titegroup. Same bullet, nearly same velocity, but repeatedly better results.

I haven’t played with it that much but I will agree that changing depths, charge weights, etc... can make a difference. How much? I don't know. If I can't easily see the first outing, I usually give up. I spend way too much time already doing that with rifle shooting and I'd never leave the reloading bench if I got that into it for pistol too.
What I learned in this little rabbit hole is that my pistols absolutely have a preference for a certain powder and a couple certain bullets. Besides using the same headstamp and quality brass, seating depth can turn a 2" group into a .7-1" at 25.
 
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Someone did earlier. No one has shown any groups with it yet though.
Also, there is no such thing as “inherent accuracy”… Accuracy is a verb, meaning it’s an action, one which is created through precise repetition. No such thing as an “inherently accurate” cartridge design. There can certainly be BETTER designs than others, but they can all be accurate when fired by a skilled marksman with a proven weapon.

If cartridges were “inherently accurate”, then this shouldn’t be possible…



Or this group from my old Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag…

Ballistic-X-Export-2022-10-30 16:38:38.394048.jpeg
 
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@Tokay444 , you should try some speedy pistol cartridges. 7.62x25 mm Tokarev from longer barrel. We will celebrate 1 MOA group victory when the time comes!