2024 Ko1M & Ko2M Rule Changes

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 18, 2024

Here are the rule changes for this year. Page 3 has an overview of the changes as well as a brief explanation of the logic behind them.

If you guys have any questions or see any issues, please let me know.

-Alex

Geno C. · Mar 20, 2024

Suppressors don’t count towards weight. Now that’s an interesting one. I do love shooting the big stuff suppressed over a brake

Taylorbok · Mar 23, 2024

Geno C. said:
Suppressors don’t count towards weight. Now that’s an interesting one. I do love shooting the big stuff suppressed over a brake

Ya there is some very suspicious rule changes. Must be someone on the committee running a can that breaks the 40lbs weight limit with it on. Why not just go to 50 like everyone else...

The rear elevator rule is still bogus. and I don't even care to use an elevator. Like if its contained in the bag fine, but if it's a separate piece and you strap it together "NO" like what sense does that make, the "originally designed or intended to be separate of the bag" is clearly targeting one or 2 products on the market.

Bipod rule to allow the legs to adjust together is good.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 23, 2024

Taylorbok said:
Ya there is some very suspicious rule changes. Must be someone on the committee running a can that breaks the 40lbs weight limit with it on. Why not just go to 50 like everyone else...

The rear elevator rule is still bogus. and I don't even care to use an elevator. Like if its contained in the bag fine, but if it's a separate piece and you strap it together "NO" like what sense does that make, the "originally designed or intended to be separate of the bag" is clearly targeting one or 2 products on the market.

Bipod rule to allow the legs to adjust together is good.

FWIW, the rules are determined by Eddie, Walt and I. We tried the committee thing last year and it was a clusterfuck. We run changes by match directors to see if there is anything that seems like it will cause problems as a sanity check but experience has taught us that the more people that are involved, the dumber the decisions can be.

The suppressor rule change came from Walt whose gun falls well within the weight limits. The rationale behind it is exactly as stated. We want to encourage the development and use of field appropriate hardware and suppressors are hard to argue with on that point. With the softening of the overweight rules, it would hardly matter unless someone has an osmium suppressor.

The rear bag change comes down to the difference between something that weighs and looks like a normal rear bag and something like this which nobody would pack out and use in the field.

Show me statistical evidence that a 50 pound gun shoots better rather than simply being heavier and we will consider moving from a 40 pound soft cap back to a 50 pound hard cap. As it is, there is better evidence that lighter guns perform better on average. People often mistake a rule limit as the point of optimization and it simply isn't the case.

The other thing I'd point out is that it would be fewer people effected if everyone in the US went with the 40 pound standard that the rest of the world follows. Ko2M is the international standard for ELR so our rule changes effect far more than you might expect. We don't change things without a reason, mathematic support or both.

There was no change to the bipod rule this year so...? Your comment does remind me of a guy that argued that his two foot wide fixed bipod was field appropriate. When I offered to change the rule if he carried his gun to a target to repaint it, he wisely chose to live instead.

-Alex

Taylorbok · Mar 24, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
FWIW, the rules are determined by Eddie, Walt and I. We tried the committee thing last year and it was a clusterfuck. We run changes by match directors to see if there is anything that seems like it will cause problems as a sanity check but experience has taught us that the more people that are involved, the dumber the decisions can be.

The suppressor rule change came from Walt whose gun falls well within the weight limits. The rationale behind it is exactly as stated. We want to encourage the development and use of field appropriate hardware and suppressors are hard to argue with on that point. With the softening of the overweight rules, it would hardly matter unless someone has an osmium suppressor.

The rear bag change comes down to the difference between something that weighs and looks like a normal rear bag and something like this which nobody would pack out and use in the field.

View attachment 8379990

Show me statistical evidence that a 50 pound gun shoots better rather than simply being heavier and we will consider moving from a 40 pound soft cap back to a 50 pound hard cap. As it is, there is better evidence that lighter guns perform better on average. People often mistake a rule limit as the point of optimization and it simply isn't the case.

The other thing I'd point out is that it would be fewer people effected if everyone in the US went with the 40 pound standard that the rest of the world follows. Ko2M is the international standard for ELR so our rule changes effect far more than you might expect. We don't change things without a reason, mathematic support or both.

There was no change to the bipod rule this year so...? Your comment does remind me of a guy that argued that his two foot wide fixed bipod was field appropriate. When I offered to change the rule if he carried his gun to a target to repaint it, he wisely chose to live instead.

-Alex

First off none of these rules affect me in any way, it’s more that they seem to be a hindrance on certain people/ items.

How is detaching the suppressor any different than removing the bipod or a belly weight to make weight then?

Do you really feel that the elevator with a slightly lighter bag is any less “field appropriate” than a 15-20 lbs BR bag?

I make weight by a mile so again idgaf but it does affect a fair number of people that exclusively attend matches that don’t follow your rules. I mean at least the points gap is closed up but If you can carry 40lbs you can likely carry 50 to follow the field expedient idea.

The last set of rules I saw did not have the “independent movement of legs” portion crossed out. Or was that not intentionally crossed out?

do you think a non folding bipod makes a rifle that much harder to carry?

I’d also like to ask you to clarify the weight limit for all other shooting gear. In Canada the MD enforced that to include spotting equipment, again it didnt affect me but did affect a fair number of competitors that had to modify their system to make that weight

kthomas · Mar 24, 2024

Taylorbok said:
First off none of these rules affect me in any way, it’s more that they seem to be a hindrance on certain people/ items.

How is detaching the suppressor any different than removing the bipod or a belly weight to make weight then?

Do you really feel that the elevator with a slightly lighter bag is any less “field appropriate” than a 15-20 lbs BR bag?

I make weight by a mile so again idgaf but it does affect a fair number of people that exclusively attend matches that don’t follow your rules. I mean at least the points gap is closed up but If you can carry 40lbs you can likely carry 50 to follow the field expedient idea.

The last set of rules I saw did not have the “independent movement of legs” portion crossed out. Or was that not intentionally crossed out?

do you think a non folding bipod makes a rifle that much harder to carry?

I’d also like to ask you to clarify the weight limit for all other shooting gear. In Canada the MD enforced that to include spotting equipment, again it didnt affect me but did affect a fair number of competitors that had to modify their system to make that weight

I have to say, from the outside looking in, the KO2M/ELR scene seems very cliquish and "boomeresque". Full of contrived rules and a discipline that has an incredible lack of practical application.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 24, 2024

Taylorbok said:
First off none of these rules affect me in any way, it’s more that they seem to be a hindrance on certain people/ items.

How is detaching the suppressor any different than removing the bipod or a belly weight to make weight then?

Do you really feel that the elevator with a slightly lighter bag is any less “field appropriate” than a 15-20 lbs BR bag?

I make weight by a mile so again idgaf but it does affect a fair number of people that exclusively attend matches that don’t follow your rules. I mean at least the points gap is closed up but If you can carry 40lbs you can likely carry 50 to follow the field expedient idea.

The last set of rules I saw did not have the “independent movement of legs” portion crossed out. Or was that not intentionally crossed out?

do you think a non folding bipod makes a rifle that much harder to carry?

I’d also like to ask you to clarify the weight limit for all other shooting gear. In Canada the MD enforced that to include spotting equipment, again it didnt affect me but did affect a fair number of competitors that had to modify their system to make that weight

Giving people a bit of grace on the weight of a suppressor gives people a choice to use one or not if they are near their weight limit. It probably won't make a difference to many shooters but if we can get more people using them then the selection for larger bores may well improve. Personally I would be very reluctant to use one on a 50 if it didn't have a muzzle brake at the end. The recoil is just brutal for a suppressor alone. Last time I looked, there weren't many choices that fit that bill for a 50 and were are none that are made for 416 or 460.

I've never seen a rear bag remotely that heavy used in a ELR match. Admittedly, some of the rubber pad stacks can get pretty damn heavy though. That was one of the reasons the inflatable bags were given slack. They offer a reasonably lightweight solution that you can toss in a pack. We didn't ban the elevator specifically. The rule on that goes back to before they existed. What we didn't want to see was ever more complex pieces of field artillery that are typical of the FCSA shooting that we were coming from. Encouraging people to develop shooting skills that are good in the field was one of our goals from go and there is nothing about a mechanically actuated rear rest that falls into field appropriate.

Just about all of the guns used for long range work by militaries around the world come in under 40 pounds ready to fire. Most are closer to 35. Ask any of the guys humping them around and my guess is that exactly none of them would consider an extra 15 pounds a trivial difference.

Independent movement of the legs is still crossed out in the linked pdf above. Probably should have just deleted that as it was last years change but I missed it. I'll revise it for next year.

A non-folding bipod can't go in any drag bag or case so yeah, schlepping that around in the field is not going to be fun. In forest, it would be one more damn thing to snag on things. The terrain in Raton is bad enough that it would very likely get you hurt.

The weight limit is for the shooters gear and does not apply to spotter gear. The intent was to keep people from building a sandbag mountain around their gun.

kthomas said:
I have to say, from the outside looking in, the KO2M/ELR scene seems very cliquish and "boomeresque". Full of contrived rules and a discipline that has an incredible lack of practical application.

Swing by a match sometime. Most of Jay and I'd matches are family friendly and are pretty laid back. As for practicality, I think there are a lot of dead Russian officers that would disagree with you...

-Alex

NightStash · Mar 24, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
FWIW, the rules are determined by Eddie, Walt and I. We tried the committee thing last year and it was a clusterfuck. We run changes by match directors to see if there is anything that seems like it will cause problems as a sanity check but experience has taught us that the more people that are involved, the dumber the decisions can be.

The suppressor rule change came from Walt whose gun falls well within the weight limits. The rationale behind it is exactly as stated. We want to encourage the development and use of field appropriate hardware and suppressors are hard to argue with on that point. With the softening of the overweight rules, it would hardly matter unless someone has an osmium suppressor.

The rear bag change comes down to the difference between something that weighs and looks like a normal rear bag and something like this which nobody would pack out and use in the field.

View attachment 8379990

Show me statistical evidence that a 50 pound gun shoots better rather than simply being heavier and we will consider moving from a 40 pound soft cap back to a 50 pound hard cap. As it is, there is better evidence that lighter guns perform better on average. People often mistake a rule limit as the point of optimization and it simply isn't the case.

The other thing I'd point out is that it would be fewer people effected if everyone in the US went with the 40 pound standard that the rest of the world follows. Ko2M is the international standard for ELR so our rule changes effect far more than you might expect. We don't change things without a reason, mathematic support or both.

There was no change to the bipod rule this year so...? Your comment does remind me of a guy that argued that his two foot wide fixed bipod was field appropriate. When I offered to change the rule if he carried his gun to a target to repaint it, he wisely chose to live instead.

-Alex

Jaclyn and I both went from 34 pound 375's to around 43lbs and they absolutely shoot better. Not sure if it's just the overall mass as AB has been suggesting or the larger barrel takes the heat better. My rifle was night and day different last season and I love it. We didn't build them to be field rifles just to shoot ELR matches.

375fan · Mar 24, 2024

kthomas said:
I have to say, from the outside looking in, the KO2M/ELR scene seems very cliquish and "boomeresque". Full of contrived rules and a discipline that has an incredible lack of practical application.

Granted, I've only shot at 2 ELR ,both at Camp Atterbury last year. For the most part everyone was friendly and fun. I disagree with the lack of practical application comment. Wind is a big part of ELR. Learning to read wind over long flat terrain and distances is a great teacher, makes you abetter wind reader at shorter distances.
I've shot all kinds of disciplines during my shooting career , pushing the 50yr mark. I can say that there are definitely good and bad in every discipline, however the good always outweigh the bad.

Geno C. · Mar 25, 2024

NightStash said:
Jaclyn and I both went from 34 pound 375's to around 43lbs and they absolutely shoot better. Not sure if it's just the overall mass as AB has been suggesting or the larger barrel takes the heat better. My rifle was night and day different last season and I love it. We didn't build them to be field rifles just to shoot ELR matches.

Add another 5lbs and it’s even better. Only down side is carrying it to the line

Jamie’s rifle is 5lb lighter than mine and you can definitely tell the difference in shooting them.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 25, 2024

NightStash said:
Jaclyn and I both went from 34 pound 375's to around 43lbs and they absolutely shoot better. Not sure if it's just the overall mass as AB has been suggesting or the larger barrel takes the heat better. My rifle was night and day different last season and I love it. We didn't build them to be field rifles just to shoot ELR matches.

I have to assume that going from a muzzle loader to a gun that would cycle helped quite a lot. What else did you guys change?

-Alex

NightStash · Mar 25, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
I have to assume that going from a muzzle loader to a gun that would cycle helped quite a lot. What else did you guys change?

-Alex

It's literally the exact same just larger basically. Bartlein barrel in same twist just 2" action and heavy barrel, same load and reamer. You can put an inexperienced shooter behind it and they can shoot it well. Jaclyns light rifle you definitely needed to drive the rifle well with good fundamentals or it would exploit you.

Taylorbok · Mar 25, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
Giving people a bit of grace on the weight of a suppressor gives people a choice to use one or not if they are near their weight limit. It probably won't make a difference to many shooters but if we can get more people using them then the selection for larger bores may well improve. Personally I would be very reluctant to use one on a 50 if it didn't have a muzzle brake at the end. The recoil is just brutal for a suppressor alone. Last time I looked, there weren't many choices that fit that bill for a 50 and were are none that are made for 416 or 460.

I can see the point on the can to try and drive the market to produce more/ better options for big bore rifles but the rule still seems sketchy. That's a pretty minor one but still seems like it was targeted to fit in a specific person(s)

Sandow the Heretic said:
I've never seen a rear bag remotely that heavy used in a ELR match. Admittedly, some of the rubber pad stacks can get pretty damn heavy though. That was one of the reasons the inflatable bags were given slack. They offer a reasonably lightweight solution that you can toss in a pack. We didn't ban the elevator specifically. The rule on that goes back to before they existed. What we didn't want to see was ever more complex pieces of field artillery that are typical of the FCSA shooting that we were coming from. Encouraging people to develop shooting skills that are good in the field was one of our goals from go and there is nothing about a mechanically actuated rear rest that falls into field appropriate.

Those BR rear bags (Protektor, Dima) that most are using typically weigh about 15lbs with standard sand and around 20 with heavy sand so there's no way you can say you haven't seen one. I'm not familiar with the FCSA gear but to not allow those products like you posted (that looks like the 4AW one) seems disingenuous, and actually seems to prevent innovation in the area. If someone stacks that with a 10lbs bag it's no less field appropriate than a 15lbs protektor bag. Heck I'm pretty sure the airfoil fully loaded is like 12lbs or something. Those rubber stacking pads are a whole other beast. It actually seems it'd be pretty easy to build a bag that was built around the idea of a mechanical elevator if one was so inclined.

Sandow the Heretic said:
Just about all of the guns used for long range work by militaries around the world come in under 40 pounds ready to fire. Most are closer to 35. Ask any of the guys humping them around and my guess is that exactly none of them would consider an extra 15 pounds a trivial difference.

A non-folding bipod can't go in any drag bag or case so yeah, schlepping that around in the field is not going to be fun. In forest, it would be one more damn thing to snag on things. The terrain in Raton is bad enough that it would very likely get you hurt.

But you guys don't actually have to carry the guns farther than the line. 35 to 50 is a jump when you are carrying it everyday all day for miles but that's not part of this. If you changed the rules that you had to start at the 2 mile target and hike to the firing line with all your gear people would be making some pretty big changes I bet. Most of these rifles don't fit in a drag bag anyhow and have no real way to carry them, basically the whole field appropriate idea is null. As for the bipod if you doing a drag bag no reason it couldn't be pulled off and chucked in a pocket for field use, same way you get to detach a suppressor, and to that why not let it be neglected from the weight also...???

Sandow the Heretic said:
Independent movement of the legs is still crossed out in the linked pdf above. Probably should have just deleted that as it was last years change but I missed it. I'll revise it for next year.

I never saw last years revision so didn't know it was crossed off then, I thought it was newly crossed out this year. Either way I like that change.

Sandow the Heretic said:
The weight limit is for the shooters gear and does not apply to spotter gear. The intent was to keep people from building a sandbag mountain around their gun.

Any chance you could specify spotter gear is not included. I voiced that it says "gear used by the shooter" they were unreceptive.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 25, 2024

If you think about this as essentially crowd sourcing the development of field appropriate gear, that perspective isn't far off. True, most competitors in the US are unlikely to shoot anything but targets with their guns. That doesn't change the reality that what we do is often directly applicable to long range sniping and anti-material work. Supporting those efforts was one of the things we had in mind when we started the sport in 2014.

My galati gear 60" fits both of my 50s and both of my ELR guns. Wearable as a backpack and since it is a half mile hike to get to my sight in range, I use it like that on a fairly regular basis. Doesn't look like Galati makes the 60" anymore but Voodoo has a similar one.

60" ULTIMATE DRAG BAG

60" ULTIMATE DRAG BAG 200034, bag, rifle bag, 50 cal., tactical, voodoo, pack, gun bag, gear,

voodootactical.com

I'll explicate the rules on spotter equipment. Feel free to tell Rob to follow up on that with Eddie if he has questions. Also feel free to demand that he submits the fucking results to us after the match.

-Alex

Taylorbok · Mar 25, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
Also feel free to demand that he submits the fucking results to us after the match.

I tried to get him to send in the results last 2 years. I’m not sure his issue, like he’s already collected all the info just attach it to an email and click send, it’s no extra work

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 25, 2024

Taylorbok said:
I tried to get him to send in the results last 2 years. I’m not sure his issue, like he’s already collected all the info just attach it to an email and click send, it’s no extra work

Last time I got results from him was in 2020 and it required about month of calling him a fuck-up on Facebook before he sent them. Personally I regard it as a disservice to the shooters to let their achievements go unacknowledged.

-Alex

Asgard1 · Mar 31, 2024

NightStash said:
Jaclyn and I both went from 34 pound 375's to around 43lbs and they absolutely shoot better. Not sure if it's just the overall mass as AB has been suggesting or the larger barrel takes the heat better. My rifle was night and day different last season and I love it. We didn't build them to be field rifles just to shoot ELR matches.

The very reason why the ko2m match struggled to fill last year. The 40 pound rule was the final nail in the coffin
Sence when has elr been about that the military does.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 31, 2024

Asgard1 said:
The very reason why the ko2m match struggled to fill last year. The 40 pound rule was the final nail in the coffin
Sence when has elr been about that the military does.

Since Ko2M started the sport lol.

I would say without question that last year was the most fun it has been since 2016 and that had more to do with the people that showed up to shoot than anything.

40 pounds has been the rule for 5 years now and with the changes to the overweight penalties, it is essentially a soft cap. You can overcome the penalty from a 50 pound gun in the first two shots. 10k points is often the difference between qualifying and not so the question is, does the extra 100 fps from the 10 inch longer barrel actually make enough of a difference in performance? I look forward to the data either way.

-Alex

Asgard1 · Mar 31, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
Since Ko2M started the sport lol.

I would say without question that last year was the most fun it has been since 2016 and that had more to do with the people that showed up to shoot than anything.

40 pounds has been the rule for 5 years now and with the changes to the overweight penalties, it is essentially a soft cap. You can overcome the penalty from a 50 pound gun in the first two shots. 10k points is often the difference between qualifying and not so the question is, does the extra 100 fps from the 10 inch longer barrel actually make enough of a difference in performance? I look forward to the data either way.

-Alex

Weight does not always need to be length. Weight means stability ,tracking and reduced recoil. No data needed on facts . You say point can be made up but what if those point for hits that are not calculated into your score knock you out of the finals .

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 31, 2024

Asgard1 said:
Weight does not always need to be length. Weight means stability ,tracking and reduced recoil. No data needed on facts . You say point can be made up but what if those point for hits that are not calculated into your score knock you out of the finals .

To be honest, if you have a hard time keeping something in the realm of 40 pounds stable, you probably have something off with your positioning or other shooting fundamentals.

If the recoil is that big of an issue for you then I have nothing to say about that. Here is a girl that weighs 90 pounds soaking wet that shot Iron Man in the FCSA for years, That had her putting 100 rounds of 50 BMG downrange for two days in a row. Maybe she offers lessons...

Michelle.m4v

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Despite the logic of heavier is better, there is a trend that was hard to deny in FCSA comp in which light guns (<32 pounds) shot better on average than heavy guns (<50 pounds). I'm less familiar with other flavors of bench rest but my understanding is that the trend is common in many of those disciplines as well. I have no explanation for it and I have not heard one that makes sense to me based upon physics.

If you are making hit that don't count it is because you have missed the target 3 to 5 times with your heavier gun that is evidently not better lol

-Alex

458win · Mar 31, 2024

If you don’t like the rules don’t sign up and don’t go. Quite easy.

Asgard1 · Mar 31, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
To be honest, if you have a hard time keeping something in the realm of 40 pounds stable, you probably have something off with your positioning or other shooting fundamentals.

If the recoil is that big of an issue for you then I have nothing to say about that. Here is a girl that weighs 90 pounds soaking wet that shot Iron Man in the FCSA for years, That had her putting 100 rounds of 50 BMG downrange for two days in a row. Maybe she offers lessons...

Michelle.m4v

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Despite the logic of heavier is better, there is a trend that was hard to deny in FCSA comp in which light guns (<32 pounds) shot better on average than heavy guns (<50 pounds). I'm less familiar with other flavors of bench rest but my understanding is that the trend is common in many of those disciplines as well. I have no explanation for it and I have not heard one that makes sense to me based upon physics.

If you are making hit that don't count it is because you have missed the target 3 to 5 times with your heavier gun that is evidently not better lol

-Alex

So if I have a rifle that weighs over 40 pounds. Are you not going to deduct points for that weight? This is what I'm talking about losing points.

Asgard1 · Mar 31, 2024

There is no evedence that a 35 lb 416,460 or 510 shoots better or is more accurate than a 50 lb one same quality rifle loads bullets and shooter.

Sandow the Heretic · Mar 31, 2024

Asgard1 said:
So if I have a rifle that weighs over 40 pounds. Are you not going to deduct points for that weight? This is what I'm talking about losing points.

Yes. You loose points if your gun is overweight. If you are at 50 pounds you start at -10,000 which is the difference of a shot or two. If you are so confident that a heavier gun is better shooting then by all means, come and prove it. I would suggest to you like I do to all shooters that King not be your first ELR match though.

-Alex

Asgard1 · Mar 31, 2024

Sandow the Heretic said:
Yes. You loose points if your gun is overweight. If you are at 50 pounds you start at -10,000 which is the difference of a shot or two. If you are so confident that a heavier gun is better shooting then by all means, come and prove it. I would suggest to you like I do to all shooters that King not be your first ELR match though.

-Alex

If there is no advantage with a heavier rifle why limit it to 40 lbs.. see i can ise the same argument. Lets advance the sport togather not hinder it

Sandow the Heretic · Apr 1, 2024

Asgard1 said:
Lets advance the sport togather not hinder it

Out of curiosity, how many ELR matches have you shot in or ran?

-Alex

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