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Classified Defense R.A.T barrels

PRSDietitian

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Minuteman
Jan 11, 2023
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Texas
Does anyone run one of these barrels?

On paper these sounds like the perfect HBAR for the AR-15

Rock Creek 4150 CMV blank
Chambered by Craddock Precision
Triune barrel extension with polished feed ramps
Nitride finish(argument could be made that chrome lined may be better)
HEAVY tapered contour(i believe their 11.5" was around 27oz without a gas block or muzzle device)


I have a centurion enhanced socom profile barrel I havent gotten around to installing on hand and floating the idea of either of these barrels for a build.
 
There’s only 3 things I don’t like about the barrel.

1) 1/2x28 threaded muzzle. I like 5/8x24 threaded muzzles.

2) melonited barrel extension. I’d rather the extension be raw

3) 14.5 requires either a pinned muzzle device or a sbr’d lower.

If I had already shelled out for the Centurion barrel, that’s what I’d run.
 
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There’s only 3 things I don’t like about the barrel.

1) 1/2x28 threaded muzzle. I like 5/8x24 threaded muzzles.

2) melonited barrel extension. I’d rather the extension be raw

3) 14.5 requires either a pinned muzzle device or a sbr’d lower.

If I had already shelled out for the Centurion barrel, that’s what I’d run.
im guessing it's 1/2x28 because it's still .750 or so at the muzzle and it's probably more efficient to do 1/2x28.
I'm guessing because it's not chrome lined, they just went ahead and nitrided the whole barrel and I'm kinda going for a 1 and done barrel so it'll be pinned anyway. Whatever I choose is going to D Wilson for that and I already have a device i'd be very happy with thankfully. I'm a perfectionist to a fault unfortunately.
 
I have plenty of barrels that are .718 or .720 in front of the gas block and still threaded 5/8x24.

I like nitrided barrels but avoid nitrided barrel extensions and bolts. I’d shoot them an email to ensure that the extension was removed, threads cleaned, and torqued after the nitride treatment at least. Last thing you want is the extension coming loose. Or all the toxic salts left in the threads.

I didn’t mean for my post to come across as trashing the barrel.

ETA: there is plenty to like about the barrel. Good blank. They used the better steel for nitride treated steel. Polished extension, chambered by a competent shop.

I’d almost bet that they’re treated as an assembly. Looking at the pic, the port looks treated which means it wasn’t reamed after the extension and pin was installed.
 
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I have plenty of barrels that are .718 or .720 in front of the gas block and still threaded 5/8x24.

I like nitrided barrels but avoid nitrided barrel extensions and bolts. I’d shoot them an email to ensure that the extension was removed, threads cleaned, and torqued after the nitride treatment at least. Last thing you want is the extension coming loose. Or all the toxic salts left in the threads.

I didn’t mean for my post to come across as trashing the barrel.
I didn’t take it wrong at all! I’m friends with Al at classified defense and I know that he is very meticulous about his products so I will ask that. About the bolt, it does come with one, but I do know that it is a DLC coated bolt.
 
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Please post what he says about the nitriding process. I've been meaning to email them and ask whether or not it was treated as a complete barrel or separately.
 
I’ll probably call him. I remember when I had a question about their ar10 bcg, he called me personally. Good customer service
 
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I have plenty of barrels that are .718 or .720 in front of the gas block and still threaded 5/8x24.

I like nitrided barrels but avoid nitrided barrel extensions and bolts. I’d shoot them an email to ensure that the extension was removed, threads cleaned, and torqued after the nitride treatment at least. Last thing you want is the extension coming loose. Or all the toxic salts left in the threads.

I didn’t mean for my post to come across as trashing the barrel.

ETA: there is plenty to like about the barrel. Good blank. They used the better steel for nitride treated steel. Polished extension, chambered by a competent shop.

I’d almost bet that they’re treated as an assembly. Looking at the pic, the port looks treated which means it wasn’t reamed after the extension and pin was installed.
And I saw the addition at the bottom. I might call Craddock too because he likely handles everything and just ships them to CD and I know his barrels are on par with compass lake in term of quality
 
Gavin,

This has honestly been a topic of discussion about five times between Paul and myself. Now, since I haven't been making barrels for countless years like Paul, I have to take his word on some things from time to time. With that being said, let me explain a little bit more. I'm going to make it short and sweet in the beginning but explain in detail why we chose the path that we did.

Firstly, to answer your question without a long-winded answer, I can say this. The barrel and extension are Nitride Coated together as an assembly.
At one point in time, I too liked the idea of having the parts coated separately and then assembled. However, when barrels are done this way, the gas port needs to be drilled after the Nitride process. This leaves the gas port raw and uncoated (which I personally don't like for obvious reasons). It also makes it very difficult to drill though because the OD of the barrel is now extremely hard.

From Paul's experience, and my own experience, neither one of us has ever seen a barrel extension loosen on a Craddock Precision barrel. To be fair, I've never seen a barrel extension come loose in my entire career from any manufacturer. But Paul would know if there was a problem with any of his barrels and most certainly make it right and/or change his methodology if he ever experienced a problem with Nitride coating the entire barrel assembly.

There have been some pictures and/or some internet stories of a loose barrel extension on a Nitride coated barrel. What we don't know about those stories is the context. Maybe the extension wasn't torqued properly prior to coating, maybe the threads on the barrel we out of spec or the wrong class of threads, maybe the barrel extension
was junk. There are a lot of variables that could cause a problem like this.

With that being said, I do all the purchasing and spec all the products personally. We have extensive quality control checks and do very harsh destructive testing on everything we sell prior to ever posting it on the website for our customers. I've shout countless barrels in many different calibers made by Paul that have been coated the exact same way on machine guns and never once had any
issues.

I also know that Paul has tested his own methods many times by attempting to remove extensions after coating to verify that they didn't loosen, and he too has never had a problem.

Like I stated above, there are many variables involved. That is why we selected the blanks we did, the barrel extensions we did, and the company we did to manufacture the barrels. With Top shelf parts and the pinnacle of barrel manufacturers, we are completely confident that you, nor anyone else, will not have any issues with the barrels. Hell, I tell people if they don't like the barrel, I'll buy it back. That is how confident I am with them and everything else we sell!

With all that being said, I have actually copied Paul on this email because maybe he can shed some light on this for you as well and/or correct me if I am wrong in any way.

As always, I truly appreciate your support and you reaching out with any questions.

Stay Safe & Shoot Straight

Al Saldi
President
Classified Defense
 
That response is what I expected from Al and I say that in the best way possible. I have no issues with the nitriding process on a complete barrel as long as it’s done properly which I know both Al and Paul do. It definitely adds more confidence to their product and why I’d buy one
 
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Except that making huge technical errors shoots a hole in the entire premise laid out in the barrels description of being made for barrrel nerds, by barrel nerds.
If I claim to be an expert in my field, and while trying to sell a customer a product continously use poor terminology, any potential customer that knows a thing or two is going to question my expertise, regardless of the quality of my work.
 
I know the difference. I know what you're saying is technically correct. I still occasionally say coating instead of treatment. I did it when emailing Mark from Precision Firearms the other day.

Lighten up, Francis.
But are you claiming to be an expert on a product you are selling?
 
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Gavin,

This has honestly been a topic of discussion about five times between Paul and myself. Now, since I haven't been making barrels for countless years like Paul, I have to take his word on some things from time to time. With that being said, let me explain a little bit more. I'm going to make it short and sweet in the beginning but explain in detail why we chose the path that we did.

Firstly, to answer your question without a long-winded answer, I can say this. The barrel and extension are Nitride Coated together as an assembly.
At one point in time, I too liked the idea of having the parts coated separately and then assembled. However, when barrels are done this way, the gas port needs to be drilled after the Nitride process. This leaves the gas port raw and uncoated (which I personally don't like for obvious reasons). It also makes it very difficult to drill though because the OD of the barrel is now extremely hard.

From Paul's experience, and my own experience, neither one of us has ever seen a barrel extension loosen on a Craddock Precision barrel. To be fair, I've never seen a barrel extension come loose in my entire career from any manufacturer. But Paul would know if there was a problem with any of his barrels and most certainly make it right and/or change his methodology if he ever experienced a problem with Nitride coating the entire barrel assembly.

There have been some pictures and/or some internet stories of a loose barrel extension on a Nitride coated barrel. What we don't know about those stories is the context. Maybe the extension wasn't torqued properly prior to coating, maybe the threads on the barrel we out of spec or the wrong class of threads, maybe the barrel extension
was junk. There are a lot of variables that could cause a problem like this.

With that being said, I do all the purchasing and spec all the products personally. We have extensive quality control checks and do very harsh destructive testing on everything we sell prior to ever posting it on the website for our customers. I've shout countless barrels in many different calibers made by Paul that have been coated the exact same way on machine guns and never once had any
issues.

I also know that Paul has tested his own methods many times by attempting to remove extensions after coating to verify that they didn't loosen, and he too has never had a problem.

Like I stated above, there are many variables involved. That is why we selected the blanks we did, the barrel extensions we did, and the company we did to manufacture the barrels. With Top shelf parts and the pinnacle of barrel manufacturers, we are completely confident that you, nor anyone else, will not have any issues with the barrels. Hell, I tell people if they don't like the barrel, I'll buy it back. That is how confident I am with them and everything else we sell!

With all that being said, I have actually copied Paul on this email because maybe he can shed some light on this for you as well and/or correct me if I am wrong in any way.

As always, I truly appreciate your support and you reaching out with any questions.

Stay Safe & Shoot Straight

Al Saldi
President
Classified Defense
I love that you share my guntism on uncoated parts of the barrel.

Here's a solution that might make the folks here happy.

Chrome lined interior, DLC coated exterior. I send all my phosphate coated barrels for DLC finish.
 
I love that you share my guntism on uncoated parts of the barrel.

Here's a solution that might make the folks here happy.

Chrome lined interior, DLC coated exterior. I send all my phosphate coated barrels for DLC finish.
That would be pretty badass tbh. Do you see a extensive benefit in chrome lining over nitride for non full auto firing schedules?
 
That would be pretty badass tbh. Do you see a extensive benefit in chrome lining over nitride for non full auto firing schedules?
I don't shoot full auto. As for the nitriding, some companies get it right, some don't. Faxon/BA/Aero barrels seem to use a less durable process. Rosco has a great rep for a particularly tough finish.
 
I don't shoot full auto. As for the nitriding, some companies get it right, some don't. Faxon/BA/Aero barrels seem to use a less durable process. Rosco has a great rep for a particularly tough finish.
Thats what i was thinking too. I know Rosco does FCD's barrel and it's great and I figured this would be the same quality since every other aspect is the quality i'd expect
 
So over the thousands and thousands of rounds fired through the nitrided extensions, was headspace checked to verify that there was no lug compression?

There have been lots of reports, with pictures, of extensions coming loose.

Torque on an extension. Ream a gas port. Drop it in 6-800 degree molten salt. 2 different grades of steel at different thickness will have different expansion rates. There went the torque value. Now you’re relying on the index pin to hold it together. No thanks
 
I can admit that I’m not an expert on all the different nitride processes. It’s my understanding that to get the best results, the barrels are quenched, polished, then quenched again. How do you polish, then quench again if the barrel extension is torqued on? You can’t. Plus, all the toxic shit that’s stuck in the threads will leach out into the extensions exposing the end user to more cancer causing toxins. Put that barrel on a reaction rod to remove a muzzle device a few times. What does it do?
 
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My point on that is, craddock has a stellar reputation for producing some of the best barrels you can get. I’d assume that quality extends to every product his name is on. I’d take that to the bank over other names like hodge for example
 
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I can admit that I’m not an expert on all the different nitride processes. It’s my understanding that to get the best results, the barrels are quenched, polished, then quenched again. How do you polish, then quench again if the barrel extension is torqued on? You can’t. Plus, all the toxic shit that’s stuck in the threads will leach out into the extensions exposing the end user to more cancer causing toxins. Put that barrel on a reaction rod to remove a muzzle device a few times. What does it do?
Early-on when nitriding became a new craze in the US civilian market, as if it was something new, some of the batches of barrels were having issues with salts getting between the extensions and shoulders.

When I do muzzle device work, I clamp the barrel in the vice with insulators, never apply torque to the extension. I have never liked barrel extension rods for that because it violates the principle of isolating the work when torquing or untorquing muzzle devices.

I remember that one guy who wrapped his gas tube around the barrel trying to get a muzzle device off. Turned the barrel with the gas block and tube around so many times that it looked like a pigtail tube.

Anybody remember the M16 Clinic Pigtail gas tubes?

iu


It looked like that.
 
So over the thousands and thousands of rounds fired through the nitrided extensions, was headspace checked to verify that there was no lug compression?

There have been lots of reports, with pictures, of extensions coming loose.

Torque on an extension. Ream a gas port. Drop it in 6-800 degree molten salt. 2 different grades of steel at different thickness will have different expansion rates. There went the torque value. Now you’re relying on the index pin to hold it together. No thanks

Hi Gents, This is Al with Classified Defense.

@Jsp556 You do know that the index pin doesn't hold the extension to the barrel, right? It is just for indexing.

I see you're from NEPA. So am I. I'd love to show you some barrels and/or let you take some for a test drive if you'd like.
 
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I sure do. You do know that If the extension is loose, it’s all that’s holding it from turning. Right?

Technically it won't. The gas tube is what will stop if from spinning out while it is assembled.

I can show you if you'd like, like I edited above, we seem to be from the same area.
 
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I sure do. You do know that If the extension is loose, it’s all that’s holding it from turning. Right?
I don't think that you understand what he said. The index pin is not intended to contact the barrel tenon threads. Sometimes it can be overdriven, though, in which case it can deform the major diameter of the tenon threads at that spot.
 
Technically it won't. The gas tube is what will stop if from spinning out while it is assembled.

I can show you if you'd like, like I edited above, we seem to be from the same area.
The pin is drilled through the extension, into the threaded barrel shank, correct? Like a pinned muzzle device. Unless the pin shears, it will hold it in place as long as there’s a barrel nut keeping it from falling out.

I’m from Georgia, not Pa.

I’m not trashing your wares. Someone asked above what were the opinions on the barrels. I simply gave an answer and the conversation has evolved.

ETA: I’m open to being proven wrong.
 
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The pin is drilled through the extension, into the threaded barrel shank, correct? Like a pinned muzzle device. Unless the pin shears, it will hold it in place as long as there’s a barrel nut keeping it from falling out.

I’m from Georgia, not Pa.

I’m not trashing your wares. Someone asked above what were the opinions on the barrels. I simply gave an answer and the conversation has evolved.

ETA: I’m open to being proven wrong.

There pin is pressed into the extension after it is torqued. There is no hole milled into the barrel for the pin unlike a pin and weld.

I will get some pictures later or tomorrow the shows how a brand new extension looks. Maybe you can even find one under google images. The hole is in the extension. The hole is slightly undersized and the pin is pressed in once the extension has been torqued.

I totally understand that you're not saying anything bad, I just wanted to educate you on that particular topic. I mean that with the utmost respect. I'm not trying to be "that guy". Like I said before, I thought I read that your bio said you were from NEPA, like me, so I would have been more than happy to show you exactly what I was referring to because sometimes things can get lost in translation over the internet.
 
There pin is pressed into the extension after it is torqued. There is no hole milled into the barrel for the pin unlike a pin and weld.

I will get some pictures later or tomorrow the shows how a brand new extension looks. Maybe you can even find one under google images. The hole is in the extension. The hole is slightly undersized and the pin is pressed in once the extension has been torqued.

I totally understand that you're not saying anything bad, I just wanted to educate you on that particular topic. I mean that with the utmost respect. I'm not trying to be "that guy". Like I said before, I thought I read that your bio said you were from NEPA, like me, so I would have been more than happy to show you exactly what I was referring to because sometimes things can get lost in translation over the internet.
So I’ve learned something. That makes me better today than yesterday.
 
The pin is drilled through the extension, into the threaded barrel shank, correct? Like a pinned muzzle device. Unless the pin shears, it will hold it in place as long as there’s a barrel nut keeping it from falling out.

I’m from Georgia, not Pa.

I’m not trashing your wares. Someone asked above what were the opinions on the barrels. I simply gave an answer and the conversation has evolved.

ETA: I’m open to being proven wrong.
In the M4 TDP, the index pin is just pressed into the extension. It isn’t supposed to breech the barrel tennon threads, but some manufacturers do that because they thought it was a reasonable idea to ensure the extension wouldn’t come loose. The real solution to extensions not coming loose is torque. The torque value on them is really high. Colt uses pneumatic ratchet guns when they install theirs, or at least used to.

With the AR-15, the barrel extension provides more meat to fight hoop stress, which you don’t see much of a problem with in 5.56 until you run the round count so high to slightly egg-out the chamber, at which point the barrel should have been replaced anyway. Look at the gap between the barrel tennon and the extension:

iu


In the larger diameter cartridges, you now have a thinner chamber wall that needs all the support it can get from the extension.

We did a group buy several years ago with Faxon if I recall, and several of the chambers showed a perfect circular shadow at 12 o’clock that was allowing brass to expand into it, and was clearly visible on spent cases. It was right under the index pin location.

Faxon took care of it, ate any barrels that people were not happy with or had this problem, and I think went to the TDP approach afterwards.

I had this conversation with Bill A. many years ago when talking about how to set the working pressure limitations to the cartridge. Everyone was thinking that bolts are the driver in that equation, but the barrel extension and chamber wall thickness, as well as the extension teeth lengths also factor in heavily.

You really find out a lot about the AR-15 when you chamber it in something else. Things that nobody would have given second thought to pop up and let you know you’ve overlooked something.

I also talked with Frank from POF about this when he introduced the Revolution at SHOT (.308 in an AR-15 frame, same barrel extension OD). It was my first question about containing the hoop stress since the chamber is even hogged out more, with thin walls. He said the extension metallurgy and even the barrel nut (tightly fit), were how he addressed hoop stress in the Revolution.

It’s one of the things that made him afraid to even do the design back in the day, because it was in his mind years before he actually did it.

But yeah, if you drill into the threads when installing indexing pins, you’re not doing yourself any favors.
 
Thanks for the lesson on the indexing pins. Good to know. I had seen one taken apart that had been drilled into the threads. My fault for assuming. Lesson learned.

I’m even more wary of barrels that were treated with the extensions torqued before treatment now.

I hope they sell a ton of the barrels and the customers are happy.
 
Whether it’s said as coating or treatment, the product imo still speaks for itself
How can you say it "speaks for itself" when the premise of the thread is you not knowing if its good or junk? You dont know if its good or bad, and it seems none of us do either, so id say if its supposed to speak for itself... it must have went mute.
 
My point on that is, craddock has a stellar reputation for producing some of the best barrels you can get. I’d assume that quality extends to every product his name is on. I’d take that to the bank over other names like hodge for example
I dont think anyone can use hodge as a competitor to anyone for anything.. other than "hypebeast bullshit of the month"
 
How can you say it "speaks for itself" when the premise of the thread is you not knowing if its good or junk? You dont know if its good or bad, and it seems none of us do either, so id say if its supposed to speak for itself... it must have went mute.
I meant because it’s a craddock barrel and they have a good reputation