Worst Value Optic?

steve123 said:

OT a bit but does anyone have a opinion on the Zeiss S3 vs their S5?

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Nobody replied? Personally, I'd rather buy the Tract Toric ELR 4-25x50 ($1494.00 regular price or 10% off December sale or 15% off LE/Military any time) and Vortex Razor Gen 3 6-36x56 (2k from Liberty or next time they go on sale for $1800 at EuroOptic and Scopelist) versions of the S3 due to their superior lifetime warranties including their electronics (illuminated reticles) while Zeiss has only 5 year warranty on their electronics and the down time if they have to ship the Zeiss out of the country to Germany (or maybe even Japan for their S3's) for repairs while Vortex pays your round trip shipping for your Vortex brand products' warranty needs and probably THE QUICKEST turn around time available from ANY BRAND of optics and Tract Optics would just send you a brand new replacement under their lifetime warranty as well but you need to request a prepaid return shipping label from them or pay to ship out of pocket if you don't bother to even ask.

If they were exactly the same price I'd still rather buy from the brands with the superior hassle free lifetime warranties including their electronics who can offer the quickest turnaround time by not having to send them overseas and out of the country for repairs.

I mention this warranty factor due to your first hand experience regarding the Hawke scope warranty concern. After doing a little research, there are indeed some Hawke customers who were actually given grief about their Hawke scopes that didn't work properly but if you make a fuss online they eventually seem to make it right just like how Element Optics seems to really like to first deny warranty or exchange defective brand new Element Optics scopes straight out of their boxes including their Japan made Nexus scopes which there have been defective brand new ones straight out of their boxes with Element Optics saying nothing wrong or seems to be within specs until they get blasted on the internet and only then will they make it right after they are again publicly exposed. Imagine all the customers who got similarly screwed who didn't even bother to voice their grievances on the internet? But then again they most certainly aren't Bushnell who can actually make all their customer complaints regarding getting screwed over come warranty time somehow magically disappear without any trace from the internet.

Also it is always best to quit paying full price if you can help it and know how cheap they can actually go when they go on sale and also with LE/Military or outdoor job profession discounts through EV or just only buy from certain dealers who you already know will always offer the best deals bar none which no one will even want to come close to matching. Once you know who to buy from, you will most definitely end up with a lot of extra money in your bank account and wallet.

Notice I only recommend certain things when they're on sale and the cheapest places to buy from?

If the Athlon Ares BTR G2 4.5-27x50 $565.49 sale at Walmart online with free shipping and free returns within 90 days goes back to $869.99 regular street price, I won't recommend buying them until they go on sale again especially since even though they're best in class they're still made in China and everyone knows how much Chinese made goods are ridiculously marked up. No longer recommending the previously sale $279.99/$314.99 priced Sightmark Presidios illuminated FFP with zero stop 3-18x50/5-30x56 with lifetime warranty including their electronics either since they went back to regular price $399.99/$449.99.

Don't throw away your hard earned money by paying more than you have to if you don't really need to. There's always other choices to find on sale worse case scenario Arkens are still 25% off direct from Arken Optics USA but don't ever pay regular price for them just wait to buy only in sale. Careful who you buy from since the Arken EP5 is selling fir regular price on Amazon while it's 25% off buying direct from Arken Optics USA for $397.49 with their current 25% off discount code. Some of the Arken listings on Amazon did reflect the 25% sale price but sine are regular price so best to buy direct from Arken or only from an honest second party dealer who will happily match the sale price and also give free shipping.

Taylorbok said:

It’s hard for anyone to evaluate an optic no one has ever purchased

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Also hard to get an accurate assessment when their previous negative product reviews posted by their own customers got deleted.

KevinWood44 said:

What optic (for you) is just NOT worth the money?

For me it is the Kahles. I am left handed and I really would prefer the parallax on the elevation turret but for $3,500+ I just can not reationalize that purchase.

I am running the Cronus BTR Gen2 4.5-29 I can't see spending more than double the price of that scope for the roughly the same glass (granted the Cronus punches way above it's price) and a few other small features like a rev indicator.

Anyway I am just curious what is the optic you think does not warrant the price tag?!?

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In general any brand that won't actually honor their own written warranty or weasel their way out of offering a current replacement no matter how cheap their products go on sale for, screams out loud let the buyer beware. They use their advertised lifetime warranty BS tactic to hook all the ignorant new customers to buy their products thinking they got full coverage warranty no worries only to find out the hard way after the fact come warranty time. That's when they ultimately rip you off really good thank you and F you very much for being so stupid enough to buy our brand of products.

There are even brands out there who intend to rip you off too by already launching a new products with an advertised lifetime warranty only to change it recently to only 5 years for electronics related components and they have no desire to even repair them past the 5 year manufacture dates not date of actual purchase. They will just tell you spend more money and just buy their new ones instead. I really feel especially sorry for the expensive SIG rangefinder binoculars and scope (with built in electronics in them) owners who are going to end up with disposable throw away items past their 5 year warranties or extra heavy binoculars less rangefinder with below average glass in them or SIG scopes with reticles that won't illuminate or have useable cant indicator nor even have the ability to pair up anymore. It was all planned to be disposable goods. Other brands I worry about too many customers getting screwed over I had already mentioned on my other replies.

Warranty is like insurance and the terrible companies only think about their own profits and just seem to really like to screw their customers over after they already got their money to only get a silent thank you for being stupid enough to buy their brand. Other companies may state after you paid to send your broken scopes in that nothing was wrong or they're within specs and send back your defective scopes and you can't even sell it since they already got that serial number logged under your name so it would be even easier to deny the next sucker.

Many dishonest greedy "corporate profits is King motto" companies of today really should have Vortex train their customer service warranty department staff. There really seems to be a huge disconnect between their new product promotion department and their own customer service department.

I'm am extremely saddened to hear even Burris is capable of screwing over their customers. But at least it's only very few rare minority instances who got screwed unlike a unbelievable amount of pissed off former Bushnell customers.

Unfortunately even Athlon had a few hiccups as well with their lifetime warranty department trying to pull a fast one on their customers by having the nerve to send used scopes to replace a defective brand new straight out of box scope. Of course they eventually made things right even sending prepaid return shipping label and getting brand new replacements out but word had already got out. This is also a rare case like Burris but I still wonder.

I have this one hard headed friend who actually throws away his broken and defective stuff even if they have lifetime warranties and he simply just don't care to deal with having to send things in the mail or even do returns and just keeps on buying brand new ones whenever something breaks. I regret not being around the time he threw away a rifle when the stock cracked along with the Leupold scope that was mounted onto it.

Goes to show you that there are actually people out there who actually don't care about warranty and just throw them away after they break and just keep on buying brand new ones.

Unfortunately, I'm not rich enough to be able to just throw away stuff like that and have to make use of their lifetime warranty like the every day commoner.

Get this one, another buddy only pays with cash and always prepays at the gas station and doesn't even bother to get his change if his tank can't take the whole amount. He told me not once did he ever bother to walk back inside to get his change. He also doesn't care about prices either if it's on his way to work or home he will only buy from stores on the way regardless how expensive stuff are. He also doesn't like to order anything online and only buy local at full retail even though they're 3x the price. He outright told me he honestly doesn't care how expensive anything is as long as it's most convenient to buy he buys things at full price locally instead of having to wait one to two whole days for the mail/Amazon/UPS/FED EX truck to save 70% off. Dudes just a regular guy not a corporate president nor business owner but he only worked for cash all his life and only did some farming on the side to sell to the local markets for cash only.

It’s hilarious to me to read about people arguing the merits of sub $1K scopes. Competition defines good scopes and no one really uses any of these.
Stick to the Alpha scopes used in competition, and you won’t have any significant problems. Well, maybe what I call first World problems.

mrmarklin said:

It’s hilarious to me to read about people arguing the merits of sub $1K scopes. Competition defines good scopes and no one really uses any of these.
Stick to the Alpha scopes used in competition, and you won’t have any significant problems. Well, maybe what I call first World problems.

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Not to be snarky but do you mean like the S&B I had to send back twice, or the 2004-ish USO I sent back that still had sub par glass which was deemed okay by them, and I could keep going with three more personal examples of higher end scopes not being what they should be or having things not quite right about them. But we can assume the more money something costs the more reliable it will be, I guess.

Yep I've also had problems with the sub $1000 scopes, the $1000 to $2000, and on up. But the more money I spend on the scope the more cringe worthy the disappointment is when the expensive ones let me down.

Scopeye said:

In general any brand that won't actually honor their own written warranty or weasel their way out of offering a current replacement no matter how cheap their products go on sale for, screams out loud let the buyer beware. They use their advertised lifetime warranty BS tactic to hook all the ignorant new customers to buy their products thinking they got full coverage warranty no worries only to find out the hard way after the fact come warranty time. That's when they ultimately rip you off really good thank you and F you very much for being so stupid enough to buy our brand of products.

There are even brands out there who intend to rip you off too by already launching a new products with an advertised lifetime warranty only to change it recently to only 5 years for electronics related components and they have no desire to even repair them past the 5 year manufacture dates not date of actual purchase. They will just tell you spend more money and just buy their new ones instead. I really feel especially sorry for the expensive SIG rangefinder binoculars and scope (with built in electronics in them) owners who are going to end up with disposable throw away items past their 5 year warranties or extra heavy binoculars less rangefinder with below average glass in them or SIG scopes with reticles that won't illuminate or have useable cant indicator nor even have the ability to pair up anymore. It was all planned to be disposable goods. Other brands I worry about too many customers getting screwed over I had already mentioned on my other replies.

Warranty is like insurance and the terrible companies only think about their own profits and just seem to really like to screw their customers over after they already got their money to only get a silent thank you for being stupid enough to buy their brand. Other companies may state after you paid to send your broken scopes in that nothing was wrong or they're within specs and send back your defective scopes and you can't even sell it since they already got that serial number logged under your name so it would be even easier to deny the next sucker.

Many dishonest greedy "corporate profits is King motto" companies of today really should have Vortex train their customer service warranty department staff. There really seems to be a huge disconnect between their new product promotion department and their own customer service department.

I'm am extremely saddened to hear even Burris is capable of screwing over their customers. But at least it's only very few rare minority instances who got screwed unlike a unbelievable amount of pissed off former Bushnell customers.

Unfortunately even Athlon had a few hiccups as well with their lifetime warranty department trying to pull a fast one on their customers by having the nerve to send used scopes to replace a defective brand new straight out of box scope. Of course they eventually made things right even sending prepaid return shipping label and getting brand new replacements out but word had already got out. This is also a rare case like Burris but I still wonder.

I have this one hard headed friend who actually throws away his broken and defective stuff even if they have lifetime warranties and he simply just don't care to deal with having to send things in the mail or even do returns and just keeps on buying brand new ones whenever something breaks. I regret not being around the time he threw away a rifle when the stock cracked along with the Leupold scope that was mounted onto it.

Goes to show you that there are actually people out there who actually don't care about warranty and just throw them away after they break and just keep on buying brand new ones.

Unfortunately, I'm not rich enough to be able to just throw away stuff like that and have to make use of their lifetime warranty like the every day commoner.

Get this one, another buddy only pays with cash and always prepays at the gas station and doesn't even bother to get his change if his tank can't take the whole amount. He told me not once did he ever bother to walk back inside to get his change. He also doesn't care about prices either if it's on his way to work or home he will only buy from stores on the way regardless how expensive stuff are. He also doesn't like to order anything online and only buy local at full retail even though they're 3x the price. He outright told me he honestly doesn't care how expensive anything is as long as it's most convenient to buy he buys things at full price locally instead of having to wait one to two whole days for the mail/Amazon/UPS/FED EX truck to save 70% off. Dudes just a regular guy not a corporate president nor business owner but he only worked for cash all his life and only did some farming on the side to sell to the local markets for cash only.

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Ha I've known some funny characters as well.

I learned my lesson the hard way by waiting too long, getting to a certain age to have a comprehensive exam of my eyesight from the Stein institute, and being a photographer, I'll admit I should've known better.

One of my reasons for denial was my great eyesight when I was young, and the fact that your brain compensates for the aging process and keeps telling you how good your eyesight is no matter how bad it gets.

Long story short, they tell me the cataracts are getting worse, so get them replaced while I can still pass the physical at my age.

Unforgettable for me was the month where I'd had the surgery on my right eye, where I could see the difference in my vision between it and my left eye which hadn't been operated on yet.

About two days right after the surgery on my right eye, I could see clearly through that eye, and comparing the difference between it and my left eye I was in utter shock.

The vision in my left eye that I kept telling myself was ok all those years was total shit/a murky fog compared to the vision in my right eye.

So no matter how good an optic was/is that I've looked through to consider buying, I wasn't going to get the benefit of it's performance, because of my poor eyesight which my brain had fooled me into believing it wasn't as bad as it was.


There are folks on here w/great eyesight, probably a boatload of folks who think their eyesight is ok and it isn't, the only way to confirm as you age is get a comprehensive exam. Mine discovered my glaucoma and they arrested its progression before it could do any damage and surgeries returned my eyesight to when I was 30.

Point is I'm suggesting that whatever the performance of any of these scopes, make sure it isn't your own eyes that are shortchanging you in this equation.

For those of you that have glaucoma and don't know it, the pressure inside your eyeballs will start killing your optic nerve.

Left unchecked you will become Ray Charles

There's no cure, so the next best thing is finding out whether you have it or not, then they try to arrest it/"put it to sleep" w/medication, or in my case where the meds didn't work, they inserted stints/itty bitty "relief valve's" on the side of my eyeballs that relieve the pressure to keep it normal.

mrmarklin said:

It’s hilarious to me to read about people arguing the merits of sub $1K scopes. Competition defines good scopes and no one really uses any of these.
Stick to the Alpha scopes used in competition, and you won’t have any significant problems. Well, maybe what I call first World problems.

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Well, it’s good to see that scope snobbery is not dead. It would be disappointing if we didn’t have the optics section to go to for entertainment.

lash said:

Well, it’s good to see that scope snobbery is not dead. It would be disappointing if we didn’t have the optics section to go to for entertainment.

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It’s all fun and games until your Schmidt has 1% tracking error compared to none in my Theta

I think a lot depends on your use. I've owned; Tangent, ZCO, S&B, NF, Kahles, Vortex, Leupold, Steiner and Bushnell scopes.

Speaking strictly from my perspective in the context of playing the PRS game; Tangent, ZCO and NF are the worst values. Vortex and Leupold have been the best.

Mormegil87 said:

I think a lot depends on your use. I've owned; Tangent, ZCO, S&B, NF, Kahles, Vortex, Leupold, Steiner and Bushnell scopes.

Speaking strictly from my perspective in the context of playing the PRS game; Tangent, ZCO and NF are the worst values. Vortex and Leupold have been the best.

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I find after 2k there is definitely diminishing return on investment.

Convex said:

Long story short, they tell me the cataracts are getting worse, so get them replaced while I can still pass the physical at my age.

Unforgettable for me was the month where I'd had the surgery on my right eye, where I could see the difference in my vision between it and my left eye which hadn't been operated on yet.

About two days right after the surgery on my right eye, I could see clearly through that eye, and comparing the difference between it and my left eye I was in utter shock.

The vision in my left eye that I kept telling myself was ok all those years was total shit/a murky fog compared to the vision in my right eye.

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Pretty sure that’s me can’t wait to get to eye doctor

BurtG said:

Pretty sure that’s me can’t wait to get to eye doctor

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Last fall, I my eyeglasses broke and I knew it had been years since I had an exam. So, I went to get a new scrip. In the test, he discovered that I have the beginnings of a cataract in my left eye. Even though I am left-handed, I shoot long guns right-handed and scope with my right eye.

I said that it was funny that I have a cataract because I drive a Toyota.

BurtG said:

Pretty sure that’s me can’t wait to get to eye doctor

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Be very, very, very thorough in your research about what type of lenses you choose to implant. And the doc you choose. MAKE SURE the cataract surgeon did not sell his practice to a hedge fund or private equity, but still works there.

Critical care will suffer due to the hedge fund/private equity cutting costs. I have a sister-in-law in the know, and this happens!

I cannot stress the things above enough.

Look through posts with my username and the words cataract or toric in them for info I might have forgotten.

I remember four price levels of lenses, listed in increasing $$$$.

1. Basic. The max most insurance will cover. Won’t correct astigmatism.
2. Toric. Will correct astigmatism. I got these.
3. Multifocal. Jacks of all trades and masters of none. Glare problems are often reported. Not for those who want perfect, or near perfect correction. Might be called, “Lifestyle”.
4. Light adjustable. Fancy new lenses that docs can adjust the lenses’ rx AFTER surgery with 5 or so UV light treatments.

Do not get multifocal lenses. Told the doc I was a rifle shooter and photographer and they dismissed these out of hand for me. They are for non-picky people who value not wearing glasses. Try to find a surgeon who shoots, ask at the club, tell him you’re a shooter.

I got toric lenses, which correct astigmatism. If you get basic lenses and have astigmatism too, you’ll have to correct that with contacts or glasses. I got what’s called monovision, which is one distance lens in my shooting eye and a closeup lens in my other eye. About 25% of people has brains than can put those two images together.

It gives me an approximation of young eyes. Still can’t see as close up as a young person, but it allows me to largely get by without cheaters. Still need glasses for driving to correct that closeup eye especially. Mostly notice the glasses’ help at night. But the glasses I have now are light, not my old Coke bottles!

Don’t use glasses for shooting as the scope diopter is enough. Don’t use glasses for working at a desk job either. Pretty awesome.

I’m in my mid-50s and had glasses since second grade. Had an rx of -11/-10.5 nearsightedness right before the surgeries.

Light adjustable lenses provide the theoretically best vision possible as it’s slowly dialed in after the surgery (weeks/months).

Meanwhile you cannot let your eyes be exposed to outside light. Even window light when inside your home. My understanding is each UV treatment slowly locks the rx in until the last treatment. Then it’s ok to go outside. Don’t choose this option is you are at risk for retina detachments! Too many balls in the air, my personal doc said, and he saved my ass as the cataract place was pushing me that direction.

You see, I had two retina detachments after my surgeries, one in each eye. You can read all about the surgeries in my posts (or maybe just about one of them). I knew I was at extreme risk going in, my dad had three detachments and suffered some permanent vision loss because he was a dumbass.

He lifted heavy things right after surgery and he didn’t immediately run to the doc when the black veil came down upon his vision, etc. Rather, he stayed at work.

I could’ve not had cataract surgery and surely gone blind as my lenses slowly turned opaque and milky, or gone blind if my retinas fell apart in bad ways after surgery. What a choice, huh? Really no choice at all…the only hope was cataract surgery.

I can see well now, but I lost a year of my life battling my retinas. Thank god I was on top of it like you wouldn’t believe. The surgeon couldn’t believe I had noticed the retina detachments starting.

If you wait to see if that odd peripheral shadow you see only in dim light is going to get bigger, you increase your chances of going blind.

Also, you want a recommendation for a doc in Mn? Hit me up.

Also, if you have employer-provided health insurance, when planning on which tier of insurance you are choosing realize this: in the USA EACH EYE IS A SEPARATE SURGERY in the eyes of the doctor and insurance company.

Most other countries in the world do both eyes in one setting, one after the other and count it as one surgery. Maybe one and-a-half, dunno.

The USA docs did this too until the 80s/90s(?) or thereabouts. Some necrotizing contamination snuck into the manufacturing chain and into the liquids the surgeons used and…look up the word necrotizing. Yeesh. People lost both eyes.

In other parts of the world, people with super shitty eyes like mine would still have two separate surgeries, spaced apart by a week or so while, as I said, healthy-eyed people get it done in one go.

But because of that horrible thing above, in the USA everyone here gets their cataract surgeries spaced apart too.

Edit: might not be clear, but I mention the above because big corps usually have these estimator tools you run each year to figure out what plan will probably be most cost efficient in your case.

It can take just one extra outpatient surgery to push the tool to suggest the top tier plan.

So if you enter “1 outpatient surgery” in the tool but really are having two, and that leads the tool (and you) to select the cheap plan…

Well, your pocketbook might get unnecessarily punched due to limited info. Especially if you are planning on having other procedures done that year. Trying to fix that here.

Thank you !^

He's not kidding about get the right surgeon; mine was 46, did the procedure for 20 years, even though he looked about 35. I asked him before my surgeries if he was having the same surgery I was would he let a rookie do it.

He said since we were alone the answer was no, and if I repeated what he said he'd deny it.

Asked him why not.

He says a new guy can do it easily if everything goes right but what if a blood vessel pops w/blood everywhere or there's a rupture, does he panic or does he know what to do when everything is going wrong.

Also in conjunction w/what's been said, when they do surgery on your eyes they don't suture/stitch anything, nothing is locked in position, anything they do, they depend on connective tissue which grows after time to keep something in place so they order you to not lift anything heavier than 10 pounds.

After the surgery, surgeons voice got real harsh and he repeated to me "don't do shit".

Just edited my last post to make it more clear just what I was driving at. Look at the bottom where I wrote, “Edit”.

BurtG said:

What if I were to tell you people use day scopes. During the day. And want higher magnification during the day. While having a short light low Mag scope for night work.

Also. HISS / INOD. Utc xii somewhat. I know some nv will support higher mag. But nv is for non slaying posers.

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Non slaying posers.....hahahaha! Epic! Obviously I'm way late to this party but the EO TECH/THEON ELR Mk2 holds together up to 25x now as well!