Obviously not if you aren’t brave enough to post a picture of the whole target
- Thread starter Airik Farley
- Start date
We do a local shoot here called the MOA challenge and there’s lots of big talk from people online about how well they’ll do. Folks that have been there are a lot more humble. The challenge is five shots in five groups, I bet less than 1/3 can do it with an average less than an MOA and much less than that get all five groups under 1 MOA. Lots of us are just average guys but there is always a lot of over confidence in the new guys, it’s fun to watch.
Are you trying to say that if the picture was wider, you could see the pencil used to make that hole?Obviously not if you aren’t brave enough to post a picture of the whole target
I am also new and learning, so take my comment for what it is, but I figured I'd share what I understand. I'm still re-learning things all the time.
I assume you might see the first round off target, then the rest on the bullseye because the shooter is experienced and has built up consistency in themselves, but there's still inconsistency in the environment. They fire one shot, see where the wind, load, or w.e placed the round, and now, because they are consistent, they also know precisely where every round will land relative to their initial point of aim. It's easy for them to adjust for that discrepancy and place every follow-up shot in the bullseye, assuming the environment doesn't change. They would need to know that every round would consistently land in the same spot as that first round to be able to adjust their POA to hit the bullseye every time afterward.
I think of that first round as calibration, not a flyer. Of course, all the superhumans here would perfectly read the wind, know the exact load, and even have accounted for the gravity of Jupiter being in retrograde and would land their first shot every time. But I'm just a muggle who hopes to someday have the consistency to only need 1 round to know precisely where the next round will land.
Others, such as myself, will group 5 rounds off from the bullseye because I lack that consistency. If I move my POA to adjust for my first shot, I will ruin any meaningful data I would have had about my consistency by being inconsistent with my POA.
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After I said "flyer" I wondered if that wasn't the wrong word to use. I like calibration better, it will help explain those "shots" I make that didn't go exactly where I wanted them to!
Also, I would like to propose an idea that I totally and completely stole from someone else with no regrets or remorse. Possibly it is not a cold bore problem but a cold shooter problem. I start every visit to the range with some dry fire. I can dry fire all the time at home but I dry fire at the range to get myself set in that space.
I’ve read quite a few of the posts but not all. Has the OP stated what he is shooting? Rifle, caliber, blah blah blah.
I ask this because, before I built a match grade rifle, I was shooting a model 7 243 that ive had since I was 10. Still hunt with it… it’s a great hunting rifle. Started shooting 100 yards on paper with it, got into reloading, etc, and the typical 5 shot group would be 1-2 inches while including whatever “flier.” I got to where I could consistently keep around 1.5” group and figured out that particular rifle likes to shoot a few round before the groups would tighten (it likes a warmed barrel).
After I got into shooting more, I got a 6 dasher and have been shooting it for a few years now (I don’t shoot enough to burn barrels quickly). This rifle doesn’t have “fliers”…. It goes where you point it. If I’m shooting 100 yards, I get mad if I have 5 shots that aren’t all touching…. Because of the accuracy of the rifle, I know anything outside of that kind of grouping is because of me. I’ve had a couple 1” groups and a lot of .5” groups. When I’m really on it, I’ve been able to get into the .2-.3” zone. I’ve never been able to, and never will be able to achieve that kind of consistency with the model 7 243.
Long story short, at a certain point, you can outgrow the accuracy of a particular rifle
I ask this because, before I built a match grade rifle, I was shooting a model 7 243 that ive had since I was 10. Still hunt with it… it’s a great hunting rifle. Started shooting 100 yards on paper with it, got into reloading, etc, and the typical 5 shot group would be 1-2 inches while including whatever “flier.” I got to where I could consistently keep around 1.5” group and figured out that particular rifle likes to shoot a few round before the groups would tighten (it likes a warmed barrel).
After I got into shooting more, I got a 6 dasher and have been shooting it for a few years now (I don’t shoot enough to burn barrels quickly). This rifle doesn’t have “fliers”…. It goes where you point it. If I’m shooting 100 yards, I get mad if I have 5 shots that aren’t all touching…. Because of the accuracy of the rifle, I know anything outside of that kind of grouping is because of me. I’ve had a couple 1” groups and a lot of .5” groups. When I’m really on it, I’ve been able to get into the .2-.3” zone. I’ve never been able to, and never will be able to achieve that kind of consistency with the model 7 243.
Long story short, at a certain point, you can outgrow the accuracy of a particular rifle
Spot on, lots of shooters, especially new ones are done a disservice from constantly being told it’s the Indian, not the arrow…and they get stuck tryin to polish a turd thinking they’re learning something
If a centerfire rifle won’t consistently shoot sub MOA @100 yards from a bench under ideal conditions, it’s not allowed to reside at my house.
When the day comes that “I” can’t consistently shoot sub MOA under the conditions described above, I’ll sell all my crap and take up golf or some other lame hobby.
When the day comes that “I” can’t consistently shoot sub MOA under the conditions described above, I’ll sell all my crap and take up golf or some other lame hobby.
It comes down to realistic expectations as well. I'm not a benchrest guy and I shoot a heavy magnum rifle. What floats my boat is extreme long range stuff. I'm in the process of trying to get really good at it.
I have absolutely no desire to enter competitions and such. I like to compete against myself and I set my standards very high to a fault.
Here's the reason: The type of shooting I like to do is a means to get the outside world outside of my head. It's relaxing to me and when it's just me and my rifle alone in my head, all of that other crap disappears. There is no one to blame for anything other than myself in that moment. I reload my own ammo (that's on me). I built my rifle (that's on me). Therefore, if I don't shoot well that day, that's on me.
You'd be amazed how liberating that is. At least for me.
I've competed in many different arenas throughout my life and at this point I just need a little "me" time.
It's my little fortress of solitude of blame. LOL
I have absolutely no desire to enter competitions and such. I like to compete against myself and I set my standards very high to a fault.
Here's the reason: The type of shooting I like to do is a means to get the outside world outside of my head. It's relaxing to me and when it's just me and my rifle alone in my head, all of that other crap disappears. There is no one to blame for anything other than myself in that moment. I reload my own ammo (that's on me). I built my rifle (that's on me). Therefore, if I don't shoot well that day, that's on me.
You'd be amazed how liberating that is. At least for me.
I've competed in many different arenas throughout my life and at this point I just need a little "me" time.
It's my little fortress of solitude of blame. LOL
Absolutely!!!!
There are many types of shooters on this board. Many hunters just want meat on the table. Gamer,s want one hole groups, others are good at 1/2moa groups yet others, are fine at 1 moa. Then you have those who are only looking for a cold bore placement, anytime anywhere, of their choosing.
I'm sure it's been mentioned earlier, but achieving sub-moa at 100yds is quite a bit different than achieving it at 300, 500, 1000 yds.
Arguable. Putting that group on a target however…much harder.
With half way decent gear and ammo I have never actually seen anyone NOT be able to get groups 1 moa or better.
My son is 12.....he shoots 1/2 moa sometimes (when I can get him to focus). I don't think 1 moa is a very high bar.
My son is 12.....he shoots 1/2 moa sometimes (when I can get him to focus). I don't think 1 moa is a very high bar.
Hornady podcast "your groups are too small", might interest you. Quick summary of statistics, 1/4" groups are probable, consistent 100 percent reliability of sub-moa, not very probable. This is more of a discussion about the rifle and the load development, but there is some stuff in there about shooter error too.
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Fur Sure I agree, on target is much more important. My son and I are going to shoot a match on the 20th, so we went out today and took a few cold bore shots at 100 and 200. His is the top row of 223 and mine in the bottom row is 6.5.
The good thing is his couple of misses he could actually tell right away he did something wrong.
I broke 1 MOA today for the first time. Took me about 80 rounds from from my first shot ever through a scope. Not counting the rounds i shot zeroing.
Something you can do to track history-take a good piece of cardboard, place your target of choice on it, outlining the edges with a sharpie. Shoot a CB/CCB on one and group on a few others. Keep the original target in place and overlay the new one(s), after x number of these sessions, see what the original reveals. On two guns, I've been removing the CB/CCB page and actually shooting it, only bad thing is it only gives you one side of use.
Of course a log book will do the same provided your transfer of information is "accurate"
Of course a log book will do the same provided your transfer of information is "accurate"
Precision is the wringing out of fundamentals, low standard deviation ammo and barrel harmonics. Seeking consistency in all aspects. Precision relies on consistency.
Accuracy at the point of aim is a mechanical function and relies on your scope's ability to deliver precise movement of the point of impact to the point of aim. Seek precision. Accuracy will follow.
Precision is your sub-MOA group. Accuracy is that group hitting sub-MOA steel.
Taylor
Accuracy at the point of aim is a mechanical function and relies on your scope's ability to deliver precise movement of the point of impact to the point of aim. Seek precision. Accuracy will follow.
Precision is your sub-MOA group. Accuracy is that group hitting sub-MOA steel.
Taylor
At this point in my life this is where I'm at. In my retirement years now, the plan is to get out to the range and get more practice. I have always primarily a hunter who shoots but I'm here to learn more about shooting over 200 yards.
One of the reasons I quit dialing anything, once I started using a tree ret. Now if a Mfg would only put the cross in the top 1/3 of viewing & run the numbers all the way down, I'd switch everything over. Even at my age now.
Horus H-59 or Nightforce Mil-XT, both extend the tree beyond the limits of most people's vision as you zoom out. Not quite what you asked for but way more usable tree than anything else has.
Exactly and it’s surprising how many people do not know of this distinction.
Hope you’re doing well and thriving, Marc.
As many said, it depends on the definition of "1 MOA shooter" you take...
Let's talk about bipod and bag, prone or at the bench, with quality factory ammo @100 meters (or yards, whatever you like most), to get the environment out of the equation, and leave only the shooter and his skill (even if calling the wind correctly is part of the skills).
I've seen many shooters call themselves "1 MOA shooter" because they could shoot within 1 MOA with their best groups in a good day.
I believe a 1 MOA shooter is somebody who, with his worst group, on a bad day, one of those when everything seems to turn out crap, well, he shoots 1 MOA.
And that in my very personal opinion, is one hell of a shooter.
Let's talk about bipod and bag, prone or at the bench, with quality factory ammo @100 meters (or yards, whatever you like most), to get the environment out of the equation, and leave only the shooter and his skill (even if calling the wind correctly is part of the skills).
I've seen many shooters call themselves "1 MOA shooter" because they could shoot within 1 MOA with their best groups in a good day.
I believe a 1 MOA shooter is somebody who, with his worst group, on a bad day, one of those when everything seems to turn out crap, well, he shoots 1 MOA.
And that in my very personal opinion, is one hell of a shooter.
Not moa, but close. Wind was blowing right to left down to around 200 yards then the range goes back into some trees. At 600 it was blowing left to right. And I'm not a wind guy.
Top group was right at 9" of vertical but I had a constant condition while shooting that group. That was with factory primed sig hybrid cases formed to 308. Sd was 9.3.
Bottom group I had a really inconsistent condition.
The br2's had less vertical but ran roughly the same velocity.
My Garmin wigged out on the string with the br2's so I lost that data.
Trued 700, 20" 1:9 lilja with a SiCo Omega hanging on the end of it. Built buy yours truly.
Top group was right at 9" of vertical but I had a constant condition while shooting that group. That was with factory primed sig hybrid cases formed to 308. Sd was 9.3.
Bottom group I had a really inconsistent condition.
The br2's had less vertical but ran roughly the same velocity.
My Garmin wigged out on the string with the br2's so I lost that data.
Trued 700, 20" 1:9 lilja with a SiCo Omega hanging on the end of it. Built buy yours truly.
So true. when I have managed a good group, I also remember that I am seated at indoor and climated controlled range with a target caddy that brings it right back to me and a monitor camera near the 100 yard mark.
This different than hiking in the woods with the rifle, and the backpack and possibly having to post up on a fallen tree. I would be lucky to be 1 MOA there.
Off-hand? I would consider it at least 2 MOA at 50 yards. Hence, no off-hand past 50 yards.
One day, I had a good day with rifle and as I was leaving the range (outdoor) and returning their target stapler, I said, "Well, the rifle is 1 MOA but the shooter is not."
Huge difference between shooting sub-MOA prone, and then again under field conditions. Just like shooting sub-minute at 100 vs 500+. Then there is sub-MOA for 3-5 shots vs 10 shots plus. Then there is repeating the results over and over. Etc...etc...
I saw that Backfire dude make his claims the other day about how difficult it is to shoot MOA and put all of the shots in a 1" circle at 100 yards. I can't say I agree with him...but he certainly had a lot of help with the quality of shooters showing up and printing shotgun patterns that were several inches away from POA.
Tried a modified version of that MOA challenge myself with 10 shots at 300 yards twice off of a bipod and rear bag. Now I need to try it again standing/sitting off a bag...I already know that I am going to get humbled pretty quickly. That's why we practice though. I'm pretty confident on my coyote killing abilities at 300 off of a bag and standing, the piles of bones below the house is a testimony. Hitting a 1 MOA target consistently though at that range - not happening.
Time for a shameless plug. Pardon the narcissism of recording myself shooting. Practicing by yourself - video is the best way to critique what you're doing wrong. It's pretty apparent that I need to improve my two-stage trigger manipulation. This is the only 2S I have on a bolt gun. Excuses, excuses...I'm way too fast after hitting the wall of that second stage.
Target on the video card itself is 4.25" at 655 for 5 shots. Some dumbass didn't align their Triggercam to record it worth a damn though.
I saw that Backfire dude make his claims the other day about how difficult it is to shoot MOA and put all of the shots in a 1" circle at 100 yards. I can't say I agree with him...but he certainly had a lot of help with the quality of shooters showing up and printing shotgun patterns that were several inches away from POA.
Tried a modified version of that MOA challenge myself with 10 shots at 300 yards twice off of a bipod and rear bag. Now I need to try it again standing/sitting off a bag...I already know that I am going to get humbled pretty quickly. That's why we practice though. I'm pretty confident on my coyote killing abilities at 300 off of a bag and standing, the piles of bones below the house is a testimony. Hitting a 1 MOA target consistently though at that range - not happening.
Time for a shameless plug. Pardon the narcissism of recording myself shooting. Practicing by yourself - video is the best way to critique what you're doing wrong. It's pretty apparent that I need to improve my two-stage trigger manipulation. This is the only 2S I have on a bolt gun. Excuses, excuses...I'm way too fast after hitting the wall of that second stage.
Target on the video card itself is 4.25" at 655 for 5 shots. Some dumbass didn't align their Triggercam to record it worth a damn though.
I saw that video. And I saw that WhoTeeWho (Adam) made a comment about people having a hard time finding good ammo and operator error.
And I agreed with him. I said, money does not buy accuracy, practicing skills correctly does.
And this other guy disagrees and says it literally buys accuracy from buying the parts to handload your favorite bullets and charge weights. Which is not what I said. You can take any fine and expensive machine and have it be a failure in operation from operator error.
So, the guy accused me of making a wrong comment and said no, that he was wrong. Or stating wrongly. Does it cost money to buy parts, even premium parts? Yes. Does it cost money to get lessons and practice? Yes. But specifically, regardless of what you have spent, it is the shooter, not the rifle, that is the least accurate part of the system.
I would reply and find that my replies are disappearing to this one guy. Then, I realized and learned that as a channel creator, you can block certain people from being able to post replies. You can be typing away and when you click on post, it goes into the aether.
TLDR, that channel may not like some of your comments and get rid of them. Which is okay, his house, his rules.
That being said, I am still working on my skills. It's like spinning plates. I work on one thing and then have to get to the next thing.
I agree with you. Money does not buy skill. It only buys practice, and only proper practice builds skill. A fat wallet is only going to get you partway there.
I see where they can argue to a point. A $10K rifle in a $2K rest is going to allow a prone shooter to shoot okay...but not "okay" enough to win matches or even place in the top 50% if they have no skill otherwise. Put that same amount into a PRS rig and the argument fades quickly. You aren't going to buy yourself into the ability to regularly hit at distance until you put forth the effort to properly practice.
I think a lot of it falls back onto the human nature of not wanting to admit when you are weak in a certain area. It is 'un-manly'. We are also often adverse to practicing in the positions that hurt our ego the most too (raises hand as well). So many will blame their lack of results on a lack of equipment.
No Joe Blow off the streets has a legitimate chance of being put in an F1 car and winning the Indy 500. Same applies to shooting.
Actor Eddie Griffin wrecked a Ferrari. The car was fine and built with premium parts. Eddie's skills were not up to the task.
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Have you watched backfires latest moa challenge ? He camped out at the range for a week before a 14 year old kid took his money.
He shot it with his dad's rifle, dad tried it and flung one. Full custom 7 Sherman short mag.
I thought about downloading his target and trying it but I'm not paying $8 to download a target.
Shot this with my 700 in 308 that I built. Only three shots to get dope to try gravity ballistics. 300 yards at home. 5 moa to 300 with a 178 eldm. I think thats a 3" shoot n see. Never measured it.
$8 to download a target? Holy crap I'm in the wrong business.
I like that guy even less now.
I kinda feel like that backfire video is not completely honest. I'm not saying that it was 100% sandbagging for drama, but I honestly don't believe people can shoot "that" bad.
It kinda makes me want to offer a modified version of that challenge at my local range.
I'm not trying to brag by any means but I was doing load development yesterday and my worst groups were ten times better than those avg groups and I am a nobody just flinging rounds.
It kinda makes me want to offer a modified version of that challenge at my local range.
I'm not trying to brag by any means but I was doing load development yesterday and my worst groups were ten times better than those avg groups and I am a nobody just flinging rounds.
i agree...and a large part of being able to shoot well consistently is knowing how to set up to be successful...which either comes from experience or someone showing you (if you're new/learning)
ive taken my wife to the range who has probably shot less than 100 rifle rounds in her life and with me setting her up on a solid bench, known good rifle/ammo, and 5 minutes of rear bag/trigger instruction she was laying down sub moa groups out to 800 (calm winds) and cleaning KYL/TYL plate racks down to 1/2moa
now the more the position changes, the more she'd struggle...and zero chance she'd have been able to do it herself if i just handed her a rifle and ammo and said good luck
like handing a newer shooter a rifle and they put both elbows on the bench and float the butt stock....zero chance to be successful...but they just dont really know any better unless provided some instruction
I do have a small youtube channel for trying to grow my (part time stay at home parent) business. We just have fun because my son (now 12 loves youtube and wanted to.
I just posted a review video of a leupold spotting scope and at the 4 min mark there is footage of him hitting 5 out of 5 turkey silhouettes at 421 yards. That's half the reason I have a hard time believing people can actually shoot that poorly.
I think I will try to have a fun challenge.
But my club has 100 and 200 yards, so I will make my challenge one prize to do 5 shots in the 1" target and a second prize for 200 yards.
Attachments
Well, post up the video for us to see.
I've got a small channel too, that I basically started to show a few relatives my hunts, and landowners that I'm not an idiot with a rifle running around their place at night.
Lately I think YouTube has somewhat shadow banned me. The last 6 months views have just about plummeted...or maybe it's because I suck and nobody wants to watch me sputter out sentence fragments and light shit on fire. I'll blame YouTube though as it makes my ego feel better.
I didn't want people thinking I was spamming but since you asked.
Right at the 4 min mark you can see him shooting the 7" turkeys. I am really impressed with the Leupold SX4
That was some good shooting. I appreciate your sharing,
I don't think that you'll get blasted for sharing on here as long as you aren't trying to sell without becoming a supporter. I understand your hesitation if most of your stuff is linked to your business however.
That shooting was my 12 yr old son. He does ok. I know I am proud of him.
I can't afford to be a supporter. My wife is active duty and I started my business as a stay at home dad. My Passion is building precision bolt guns.
I just posted a video the other day of building a budget bolt gun from leftover parts. Most of the barrels I make end up on very high end guns for a handful of guys who compete. I don't have time to do much of them so I don't even advertise that I do it and turn a lot of work away but would liek to focus more on it and may in the future.
When I am shooting during load development off of a bench, I am looking for near caliber holes with 5-10 rounds. When I think I am having problems, I return to the bench for verification.
In use in the field, shooting deer, coyotes and such, if I can hit the heart/lung area, I am good to go. Depending on range, that translates into anywhere from 0.22 to 4 or 5 MOA. I could not really care less as long as the kill is clean and quick.
In use in the field, shooting deer, coyotes and such, if I can hit the heart/lung area, I am good to go. Depending on range, that translates into anywhere from 0.22 to 4 or 5 MOA. I could not really care less as long as the kill is clean and quick.
