I run irons for "SHTF" , I do have a burris 3X scope that could be used. about a year of solid abuse in my patrol truck and it never lost zero, i would wait a couple more years before i recomend it. I would go irons my self. they are more rugged then optics.
- Thread starter blue_ridge
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I used to run this exercise in my head, then I began to realize that all I was doing was using it as an excuse to buy more gear. That’s not a bad thing but I started down this road 12-13 years ago. Now I’m old and hope if the shit hits the fan that I don’t have to hang around very long!
Water, food and training is probably more important just my 2 cents.
Water, food and training is probably more important just my 2 cents.
Depending on if I have an erection or not, it might be 18.75 meters.
I'm not a member #TeamTrophyHusbands because of my face or sense of humor.
Interesting discussion. The simple truth is that we have lots of theories, but real life always messes those up. The one thing we know for sure is that the thin veneer of civilization disappears real fast and people become murderous assholes equally quickly. Interestingly, the become murderous assholes when solitary and murderous assholes when collecting into large groups.
What gun you should have really depends on which part of the country you are in, whether you are staying put in a small community somewhere or heading out. If you plan to be moving, size and weight matter and something as simple as a suppressed 22 (like 10.22 takedown with a suppressor) is not a bad idea. I have enough 22LR ammo squirreled away here and there for multiple generations to be never lacking for ammo.
If you are staying put though and have neighbors you can band together with, what you are looking for is to have some number of decently made ARs that are reliable, lightweight and have simple low power optics. It is a simple truth that most people can't shoot worth a damn and getting someone new to hit a target 50 yards way with a 2x prismatic is much simpler than with irons.
We had that discussion a while back. I think Matt coined the term "Rack Rifle". I joked that is the AK of ARs.
If are seriously concerned about societal collapse, you need simple to operate and maintain rifles in reasonable quantity backed up by serious amounts of ammo.
Now, in principle, it is not a bad idea to have a rifle set-up for a little bit of everything and that is where an LPVO is not a bad idea. Still, emergency situations require redundancy ahead of specialization.
I live in the Southwest, so one thing we have a lot of is the sun. I can maintain some amount of electricity for a good while with a solar panel and a few backup batteries.
The downside is that water is not plentiful here, so aside from lifestraw filters, I'd be looking into somethink like the Source Hydropanel before too long.
ILya
What gun you should have really depends on which part of the country you are in, whether you are staying put in a small community somewhere or heading out. If you plan to be moving, size and weight matter and something as simple as a suppressed 22 (like 10.22 takedown with a suppressor) is not a bad idea. I have enough 22LR ammo squirreled away here and there for multiple generations to be never lacking for ammo.
If you are staying put though and have neighbors you can band together with, what you are looking for is to have some number of decently made ARs that are reliable, lightweight and have simple low power optics. It is a simple truth that most people can't shoot worth a damn and getting someone new to hit a target 50 yards way with a 2x prismatic is much simpler than with irons.
We had that discussion a while back. I think Matt coined the term "Rack Rifle". I joked that is the AK of ARs.
If are seriously concerned about societal collapse, you need simple to operate and maintain rifles in reasonable quantity backed up by serious amounts of ammo.
Now, in principle, it is not a bad idea to have a rifle set-up for a little bit of everything and that is where an LPVO is not a bad idea. Still, emergency situations require redundancy ahead of specialization.
I live in the Southwest, so one thing we have a lot of is the sun. I can maintain some amount of electricity for a good while with a solar panel and a few backup batteries.
The downside is that water is not plentiful here, so aside from lifestraw filters, I'd be looking into somethink like the Source Hydropanel before too long.
ILya
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I'm not worried about it . The only people who have been able to find me is ups and the Jehovah witness .
^^^ This right here.
If we're gonna be serious about SHTF, then we need to be ready for when your favorite optic takes a shit too.
My favorite optic is the red dot by far. After over 20 years of just irons, my last 2 deployments were with red dots, and on the very last trip... I swear that twice... my red dot allowed me to be faster... thus coming home alive. However, had that new red dot taken a dump at the wrong time... Well, it would have been Irons... or spray & pray a-la Haji.
Do I have an LPVO? Yeah.
Do I have several red dots? Yeah.
Do I have Irons? Hell yeah... on every one of the above. For when the S really Hits TF.
There is no "best" that's universal for everybody. What works best for you is what you constantly train with. If you can't HIT your targets, and I mean with accurate shots that cripple or disable them, what good are you? Want to see what your shot placement will do? Use targets like this, setup at multiple distances and rotate your fire between them. Fun drill.
Attachments
I have a very quiet generator that runs on electricity. You have to be right on top of it out you don't notice it...
You do know that M/G (motor/generator) sets are a real thing? They are sometimes used to convert to 50hz for testing, but their biggest use is protection from the grid, or mother nature. Many homes in Fla have them. There also many, many diesel gensets in Fla, that are < 50dbA at 1 foot.I have a very quiet generator that runs on electricity. You have to be right on top of it out you don't notice it...
I don’t get the fascination with iron sights.
In ideal conditions they’re slow.
Behind barricades they’re really awkward and slow means more time exposed.
in low light they really suck.
The peep sights on most ARs are easily occluded with mud or water just like rds.
They have no redeeming features.
ever since the aimpoint micro T1 and acog, there are extremely reliable rds choices. Those two optics are more reliable than quality ARs and AKs.
If you are THAT concerned about reliability, then use two optics. Half the people who use acogs put a micro rds on top anyway. And almost all the aimpoint micro T1 mounts are QD so just get two of them and in the extremely unlikely event of a failure, just pull the spare out of your pack and swap them.
Of the half dozen things that could go wrong with the primary optic, half will fully or partially inhibit use of co witnessed irons so there’s a 50% chance you’ll have to detach the rds to be effective anyway.
Pretty much the only reason I can imagine to prefer irons is if you expect >3 years before battery resupply.
In ideal conditions they’re slow.
Behind barricades they’re really awkward and slow means more time exposed.
in low light they really suck.
The peep sights on most ARs are easily occluded with mud or water just like rds.
They have no redeeming features.
ever since the aimpoint micro T1 and acog, there are extremely reliable rds choices. Those two optics are more reliable than quality ARs and AKs.
If you are THAT concerned about reliability, then use two optics. Half the people who use acogs put a micro rds on top anyway. And almost all the aimpoint micro T1 mounts are QD so just get two of them and in the extremely unlikely event of a failure, just pull the spare out of your pack and swap them.
Of the half dozen things that could go wrong with the primary optic, half will fully or partially inhibit use of co witnessed irons so there’s a 50% chance you’ll have to detach the rds to be effective anyway.
Pretty much the only reason I can imagine to prefer irons is if you expect >3 years before battery resupply.
I don't think this is a bad idea. A t2 and scalarworks mount only weigh about 7 oz together . You could throw a spare in the bag and hardly notice it's there.
Consider this if nothing else. Given limited training time and ammo, What sense does it make to split your time and ammo, spending 30-50% to maintain proficiency with a significantly inferior sight? How much more competent would you be if you focus on one sighting system? Thats significant, especially for people on the lower end of that spectrum who don’t get enough reps.
Even if you’re a competitive shooter today and throw 10k + rounds per year downrange, skills atrophy and you’re not going to maintain that post SHTF. It would be better to focus your limited future training resources.
Even if you’re a competitive shooter today and throw 10k + rounds per year downrange, skills atrophy and you’re not going to maintain that post SHTF. It would be better to focus your limited future training resources.
I am a fan of throwing knives, because an enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.
It is possible to practice the fundamentals of marksmanship and positions without putting rounds down range. SIRT, Mantis, etc., there are a lot of training tools and aids, and it has never been easier to use such cool tools to help keep skills sharp.
Also, if your skills decline from say an A- level shooter to a B- or B+ level shooter, you're still way ahead of 95% of people who simply bought a gun and put it in a drawer.
People have no idea the scale of modern Ag/ food production let alone the complexity.
All game will be extinct within a year. And the vast majority will be dead within a month.
I counted over 60 deer in one field the other day on my farm. The housing developments are pushing them and concentrating them. But you're absolutely right about what you said.
As well as most of those who think they are going to trespass to take them. Even at that the bulk who believe they will "live off the land" will be in for a great big Fucking surprise, once they start entering some A/O's. Country people will not hesitate to preserve their way of life or resources, once things go south.
Anyone who thinks they are going to be able to protect and feed livestock let alone game is also smoking crack.
Ain’t gonna happen
Remember .mil and other .gov will be “legally” or otherwise stealing your food fuel etc.
I don't know about that game part but yeah, people have no fucking clue how much food it actually takes to support a single person let alone a society. The same is true with most prepper fantasies, in reality they're just hoarders.
Game will be extinct if they are any number of people around
Someone mentioned 60 deer. Crop damage people would kill that number in a day or 2.
That’s why I give it a year for extinction. Humans are problem solvers and in a years time hungry people will
Have snared thermaled whatver any game left
Someone mentioned 60 deer. Crop damage people would kill that number in a day or 2.
That’s why I give it a year for extinction. Humans are problem solvers and in a years time hungry people will
Have snared thermaled whatver any game left
~Trijicon 1-4 Accupoint 
️
~T2 offset...
ARD everything and rattle can the whole thing.
️~T2 offset...
ARD everything and rattle can the whole thing.
The new Holosun SCRS-MRS might be the best SHTF optic I've seen based on specs... The SCRS (Solar Charging Rifle Sight) has an internal rechargeable battery pack that can hold charge (sitting still without ANY light or movement) for 2.5 years, and it can also recharge using artificial light sources and not just natural solar light. I bought one for my MP5, and i'm extremely impressed so far! I've considered swapping out several older style red dots for these, as well. The glass is super clear, the reticle is super sharp edges, and the fact you can select between 3 different reticles, and you can select how long you want it to auto on/off is nice.
I did put it on an ADM low QD mount for a Holosun 509T (same footprint) because the factory mount was too high for the MP5.
I did put it on an ADM low QD mount for a Holosun 509T (same footprint) because the factory mount was too high for the MP5.
In the Southwest you're also going to have plenty of cartel squads and even Mexican regulars when Mexico decides to openly enter the USA with regular infantry forces. Something to consider.
The average American eats about 230 pounds of meat per year.
This means that the average American would probably need at least 4 deer per year, just to get their meat requirements, assuming each deer yields about 60 pounds of meat.
On the flip side, I have already explained my calculations and reasoning for how and why about 150 million Americans will be dead within 12 months of the grid going down.
There will be significantly less competition for the resources that remain.
Physical fitness, good health with an absence of underlying conditions or pre-existing conditions, and the ability to obtain food via foraging, fishing, hunting, trapping, and water via filtering/boiling/etc, will be paramount to staying alive.
It also helps to keep a good mindset.
The average American will likely die. Make sure you're not average.
All will have choices to make, and with all choices, there comes consequences thereof.
I am a fan of "the best thing you can do is maintain high physical fitness and be skilled in unarmed combat" because your body is always with you and you take your hand-to-hand skills with you everywhere you go, many areas don't allow you to be armed, and you're far more likely to be in a non-lethal encounter than a lethal encounter.
I actually do put about 12,000 rifle rounds downrange each year [4,000 .308, 4,000 .223, 200 30'06, 200 .300 win mag, 50 50 BMG, the rest being 22 LR] not counting the approximately 3,000 to 4,000 pistol and the 500 or so buckshot and slugs.
If money were a huge constraint, I would focus far more on dry-firing and other non-ammo training.
In any event, $100 per month covers a typical Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym and if you do 2-5 classes per week you'll maintain a solid fitness level and gain skills.
I've been in far more "hands on" situations in my life than "I had to use a gun to defend myself" situations. Most defensive situations are going to be less than lethal encounters, some drunk thug who wants to push your chest or take a swing at you. You're not going to be legally justified escalating right to a pistol and shooting a guy because he took a swing at you or he pushed your chest in a shopping line dispute.
Hand-to-hand skills, and accompanying physical fitness, are generally woefully neglected and are frequently overlooked by most people. Guns are fun and cool and shooting is enjoyable, but that isn't an excuse to neglect hand-to-hand or fitness.
I have a good friend who was MARSOC and he has said I can out-shoot him any day of the week, but his stamina, endurance, ability to haul gear over distance and not quit, his overall fitness, it sort of scares me that a man can reach that level of almost "pack mule" endurance. He said he never once qualified expert, and I understand his position that "sharpshooter and marksman and the ability to engage people out to 400-500 yards, consistently, is good enough, especially if you can haul 110lbs on your back for 25 miles in one day."
There are always tradeoffs to be made. Time spent lifting is time that cannot be spent shooting or grappling. Time spend grappling is time that cannot be spent shooting. Money spent on ammunition is money that is not available for fitness training activities.
The worst people in the immediate aftermath of a disaster will be military deserters who are going around in fire-team, squad, or platoon sized groups and are rampaging against civilians, as well as police who form gangs and use their "badge" as though it still holds weight and counts for something.
Fortunately, those groups will incur a lot of casualties and their numbers will rapidly deplete, without any reinforcement pipeline and without the logistics or medical chain to tend to their casualties.
Imagine a squad of 12 enlisted thugs who desert because they haven't been paid in 12 weeks and they haven't been fed in 3 days. If they stick together as a unit they will resort to raiding. Of course they will take casualties and they won't have the benefit of any organizational support for their logistics or their casualty evacuation/care.
In Haiti there are three broad categories of police, "police who fled because things got bad," "police who became gang members and gang leaders," and "police who are desperately trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with their comrades to protect neighborhoods that are being pressed upon by the gangs." No matter how you slice it, it isn't a pretty picture and the percentages reveal that most police either cut and ran or have taken up with the gangs. Only about 30-40% of police are still holding the line in Haiti.
Fortunately, those groups will incur a lot of casualties and their numbers will rapidly deplete, without any reinforcement pipeline and without the logistics or medical chain to tend to their casualties.
Imagine a squad of 12 enlisted thugs who desert because they haven't been paid in 12 weeks and they haven't been fed in 3 days. If they stick together as a unit they will resort to raiding. Of course they will take casualties and they won't have the benefit of any organizational support for their logistics or their casualty evacuation/care.
In Haiti there are three broad categories of police, "police who fled because things got bad," "police who became gang members and gang leaders," and "police who are desperately trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with their comrades to protect neighborhoods that are being pressed upon by the gangs." No matter how you slice it, it isn't a pretty picture and the percentages reveal that most police either cut and ran or have taken up with the gangs. Only about 30-40% of police are still holding the line in Haiti.
I haven’t seen USMC Unertl 10x mentioned yet…. If you run out of ammo.. you can atleast use it as a club.
“Meat requirements” is at best 1/4 lb per day, or 91 lbs per year. Or much less. In most of the world, meat is still a luxury.
Requirements are almost universally lower than consumption when the item is readily available.
Requirements are almost universally lower than consumption when the item is readily available.
You can't maintain a game population if everyone is shooting 60 pounds worth of meat and only eating 2 or 3 pounds of it because there's no refrigeration. That's a lot of waste.
A strong local community is the most essential prep you can make. If that community is not as established as you would like it to be when stuff kicks off, giving generously from whatever excess you have of perishable items at the beginning of a disaster might help strengthen those bonds.
Know your neighbors, find out what they need, and make their priorities community priorities. The Smiths need firewood. The Joneses need help converting their well from an electric pump to a manual pump. Etc. Making those things community issues turns those neighbors into community resources instead of survival competitors. It also helps you to share resources so the game lasts longer.
I'm out here in the sticks and I only have as much experience surviving the apocalypse as the rest of you, so take that with a grain of salt. YMMV. If you're in a city, that's a whole other deal.
But to keep this relevant.... A mid-high tier LPVO or a high tier prism, along with iron sights. That would be my choice anyway. You do you.
Smoking any type of meat is still a thing in many places
If you are talking about smoking it raw, just hold it in your mouth, suck hard & lite it with a propane touch.
Meat Consumption in the U.S. Is Growing at an Alarming Rate
Despite the rise of plant-based products, meat consumption in the U.S. remains much higher than most places in the world.
sentientmedia.org According to data pulled from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), the United States and Portugal are tied for highest overall meat consumption per capita. The average person in both countries eats 149 kg/327.8 lb a year. Whereas in the U.S., chicken makes up the largest portion of that, in Portugal, eaters prefer fish and other seafood.
According to the USDA, the average U.S. resident consumes 224.6 pounds of meat — beef, pork, broilers and turkey — every year. Meat consumption in the United States reached record highs in 2021, and, though the following year saw a slight downtick, 2022 reached similar levels as the second-highest year on record.
Most people won't be able to get access to any animals other than those wild game animals that wander into their yards. Most people lack the fitness to walk 5-10 miles into the woods and take a deer.
There was at least one (and probably a lot more) folks here on SH that had that same idea about "getting what they need for them and theirs"
There will be a whole lot of "militia" types of that same opinion too.
I'm going to say if you can survive the first 2 months of dying you might just make it.
Thieves and roving bands of bandits tend to "succeed" for a bit when they set upon the unaware and the ill-prepared, but then eventually they get their just due and are brought down.
If somebody is planning to make a go of things via raiding and pillaging, they also ought to plan on dying, and beyond that they ought to plan on the hell-fire after the Judgement.
Chop up some Jack Links really fine, then pack your bowl, and put a lighter to it...
I could say most Americans lack the fitness to walk 500 yards carrying 40lbs, let alone 3 miles into the woods with a rifle to get a deer and then 3 miles out with the deer. It is probably the truth.
The average American male is not capable of doing ONE single pullup. I don't have the data available on their hiking, jogging, running abilities.
Physical fitness in the USA is woefully lacking.
On the Lewis and Clark Expedition one man could eat up to 9 lbs of meat per day, when game was plentiful.
Obviously a physically strenuous life they were living.
On July 13, 1805, Clark wrote: “We eat an emensity of meat; it requires 4 deer, or an elk and a deer, or one buffaloe to supply us plentifully 24 hours.”
Obviously a physically strenuous life they were living.
On July 13, 1805, Clark wrote: “We eat an emensity of meat; it requires 4 deer, or an elk and a deer, or one buffaloe to supply us plentifully 24 hours.”
I don't think we shall ever meet any American in the modern era who needs anywhere near that much meat.
According to ancient sources, Milo of Croton’s diet consisted of a whopping twenty pounds of bread, another twenty pounds of meat, and eighteen pints of wine a day.
Milo of Croton - Wikipedia
Milo or Milon of Croton (late 6th century BC) was a famous ancient Greek athlete from the Greek colony of Croton in Magna Graecia.
He was a six-time Olympic victor; once for boys wrestling in 540 BC at the 60th Olympics, and five-time wrestling champion at the 62nd through 66th Olympiads. Milo kept on competing, even well after what would have been considered a normal Olympic athlete's prime; by the 67th Olympiad, he would have been over 40 years of age. He also attended many of the Pythian Games.
It takes a village with many skills brawn and brain ....there will be ditch diggers and there will be leaders . While my wife and I are senior citizens and would have a problem lugging game back we would excel in other needed skills that "most americans lack " . She is a doctor and i mechanical engineer . So you stay in shape and share your skills and we will too in our village .
They also ate very little of the animal. Sometimes just the tongue and they’d discard the rest.
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