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Go to factory/reman ammo?

S

SlowMiss6.5

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 4, 2024
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Welp I’ve given the reloading thing a try over the last year or so but my ES of 40-50 is just not worth all the extra effort of reloading when I can shoot factory, sell the brass and come out close to the same.

Before I went and bought a bunch of Hornady March ammo, any others I should consider? Thinking alone the lines of LAX Ammo reloads, Freedom Muntions, etc

6.5 creedmoor
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Welp I’ve given the reloading thing a try over the last year or so but my ES of 40-50 is just not worth all the extra effort of reloading when I can shoot factory, sell the brass and come out close to the same.

Before I went and bought a bunch of Hornady March ammo, any others I should consider? Thinking alone the lines of LAX Ammo reloads, Freedom Muntions, etc

6.5 creedmoor
Click to expand...
You should never NEVER NEVER NEVER look anywhere close to Freedom or LAX. Do you value your rifle? Your health? Then don't do it. That will probably go for any ammo plant offering "remanufactured" ammo. Don't take my word for it. Just look up their reviews
 
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canezach said:
You should never NEVER NEVER NEVER look anywhere close to Freedom or LAX. Do you value your rifle? Your health? Then don't do it. That will probably go for any ammo plant offering "remanufactured" ammo. Don't take my word for it. Just look up their reviews
Click to expand...
I had my concerns but wanted to keep an open mind but that’s enough to close it back up lol. Likely just stick with Hornady, Berger or maybe Norma
 
houndog said:
This.

If you're willing to give up a little accuracy Hornady also makes American Gunner in 6.5 CM, but it may be hard to find.
Click to expand...

I’ve been considering the American gunner, seems to be close to $1.20/round. Do you have any info on its consistency or its ES/SD?
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
I’ve been considering the American gunner, seems to be close to $1.20/round. Do you have any info on its consistency or its ES/SD?
Click to expand...
As bad as your reloads. It's plinking ammo at best.

Why not unfuck your jacked up reloading process and get that sorted out. Making low es/sd ammo is not hard. Use good componets and be consistent. That's it.
 
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I use a Lee powder measure with the Hornady M2 scale and am still getting ES under 20. You're doing something pretty wrong if you've got any sort of halfway decent reloading setup and are getting ES like that.
 
DeathBeforeDismount said:
As bad as your reloads. It's plinking ammo at best.

Why not unfuck your jacked up reloading process and get that sorted out. Making low es/sd ammo is not hard. Use good componets and be consistent. That's it.
Click to expand...

First, reloading with current (last few years) component prices puts me near the same cost as buying factory ammo once selling the brass from factory ammo. If I can’t produce better than factory ammo, I’m legitimately wasting my time

Second, I’ve been trying to unfuck my reloading process with the help of this forum as well as others over the last 3 months. I’ve tried about eveytbing in two different 6.5 rifles. I’m using quality brass (Lapua and Peterson, in fact Hornady gives me about the same ES), H4350 (measured with an auto trickler so I’d say +-.1 maybe .2 grains at most), Fed match primers, Hornady 147,143,Barnes 145, Berger 140. In the past I used Lee FL did. Now Im bumping the shoulder with Redding body die, setting neck with Lee collet die (the standard mandrel size that gives about 1 thou neck tension and a minus one mandrel that gives about 3-4 thou neck tension). Also brought in induction DIY annealer to see if that was my problem. Just yesterday I tried brushing my necks and using imperial dry lube on the inside of the neck because someone told me that would solve my issue.

Between about Jan 2024 and now I’ve shot approx 350 rounds trying to figure out my ES/SD issue. It’s gotten no worse and no better compared to when I was using Hornady brass, FL Lee die, no annealing.

The reloads easily group well (10 shot groups) but ES/SD is no bueno. And I believe it shows at med/long range because I have more consistent hits with Hornady match ammo (ES around 20). Data is from a Labrador so I have to believe it’s accurate data

All all ears on how to unfuck my reloading but I’ve tried just about everything and none of it has helped
 
Some advice if you go for factory ammo, get a tuner. It will help dial in factory ammo for accuracy. Won’t help es/sd but will help groups.
 
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Chris W. said:
I use a Lee powder measure with the Hornady M2 scale and am still getting ES under 20. You're doing something pretty wrong if you've got any sort of halfway decent reloading setup and are getting ES like that.
Click to expand...
See my above post quoting another member…

At this point the only thing I can think of is neither of the two 6.5cm rifles (two completely different rifles) don’t like H4350. But that is the magic fairly dust for people with 6.5cm so I am doubtful it’s the powder
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
See my above post quoting another member…

At this point the only thing I can think of is neither of the two 6.5cm rifles (two completely different rifles) don’t like H4350. But that is the magic fairly dust for people with 6.5cm so I am doubtful it’s the powder
Click to expand...

You aren’t mixing your brass are you?

Also how much neck tension? What’s oal to lands?
 
Rob01 said:
You aren’t mixing your brass are you?

Also how much neck tension? What’s oal to lands?
Click to expand...

Definitely not mixing, just was showing that I’ve tried different brass to see if that was my issue

Neck tension I’ve tried approx .001” as well as tried approx .0035” yesterday and same ES. I measure each piece of brass to make sure my neck tension is consistent or close to.

It seems like no matter how careful or not careful I am with my reloading process, it always produces similar ES/SD and then factory comes in at about half the ES/SD. Only thing left is powder but H4350 is suppose to be the bomb when it comes to 6.5cm and the fact I’ve tried it in two different 6.5 rifles makes me thing it’s not the powder
 
I dont load 6.5 either. To be honest with you, I dont "enjoy" reloading, but the bulk of my effort was to supply myself with 5.56 when it disappeared. Regardless, I know a lot of experienced guys who load 6.5 that dont see spectacular results either. I also dont have as much free time, so I see the trade off of buying factory ammo in exchange for using my time for things that save me a lot more than 10-20 cents a round, a better deal

Federal Gold Medal, with the sierra match king bullets, has been one of the most accurate and consistent factory ammo boxes Ive ever picked up. Shop around and you can find it for $1.50/round.

Hornady ELD Match 147 grain saw the lowest overall extreme spread for me, at 27, federal gold medal with berger bullets was all over the place. One series tested had an ES of 40, another series had an ES of 26. Felt like every 1 in 5 rounds I picked up, was just not consistent, out of the box, with the rest.
 
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SlowMiss6.5 said:
H4350 (measured with an auto trickler so I’d say +-.1 maybe .2 grains at most),
Click to expand...
Isn't an auto trickler supposed to do better than .2? Have you tried keeping it to .1?

SlowMiss6.5 said:
Now Im bumping the shoulder with Redding body die
Click to expand...
How much?
SlowMiss6.5 said:
setting neck with Lee collet die (the standard mandrel size that gives about 1 thou neck tension and a minus one mandrel that gives about 3-4 thou neck tension).
Click to expand...
How does the mandrel tighten the neck from .001 down to .003 or .004? Is that written backwards? A mandrel goes inside the neck and so would open up the inside diameter, not reduce it.

UPDATE: Saw your subsequent post, you tried two different tensions.
 
Malum Prohibitum said:
Isn't an auto trickler supposed to do better than .2? Have you tried keeping it to .1?


How much?

How does the mandrel tighten the neck from .001 down to .003 or .004? Is that written backwards? A mandrel goes inside the neck and so would open up the inside diameter, not reduce it.

UPDATE: Saw your subsequent post, you tried two different tensions.
Click to expand...

It is accurate to .1 grain but I’m assuming there is rounding so if you take min to max I’m assuming there can be upwards of .2 grain difference. But when reloading I go for the same say 40.0 grains every time. If it’s over or under I dump it and redo it

I haven’t try a mandrel setup but I have a hard time seeing that it would make a large difference because folks have good luck with the body die and Lee collet die

I shoot to bump the shoulder approx .001-.002 from the once fired brass. I know that’s not a true shoulder being once fired but figured it’s close
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
And I believe it shows at med/long range because I have more consistent hits with Hornady match ammo (ES around 20).
Click to expand...
SlowMiss6.5 said:
reloading with current component prices puts me near the same cost as buying factory ammo once selling the brass from factory ammo.
Click to expand...


Yeah, it sounds like you made an effort and tried to beat factory. No way will LAX or Freedom be better. Stick with Hornady Match since you have good luck with it.

Edit: Whatever happened with the Prime/RUAG debacle?
 
Last edited:
Is your Lapua Brass all from the same lot? Do you anneal?

I have used to the Redding Body Die and Lee Collet and gotten under 5 SD and like 12 fps ES with once fired lapua brass (same lot).
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Definitely not mixing, just was showing that I’ve tried different brass to see if that was my issue

Neck tension I’ve tried approx .001” as well as tried approx .0035” yesterday and same ES. I measure each piece of brass to make sure my neck tension is consistent or close to.

It seems like no matter how careful or not careful I am with my reloading process, it always produces similar ES/SD and then factory comes in at about half the ES/SD. Only thing left is powder but H4350 is suppose to be the bomb when it comes to 6.5cm and the fact I’ve tried it in two different 6.5 rifles makes me thing it’s not the powder
Click to expand...

That's a bummer.

I would also be incredibly frustrated if I put that much energy into reloading, but couldn't get adequate results. So I totally understand where you are coming from. You are using all good components. Personally I had an issue with my Redding FL die and 6.5 Creedmoor, for some reason I could never get a consistent shoulder bump from it. Replacing it with a Whidden die solved that problem. But if I was in your shoes, I would be really hesitant to continue to pour money into reloading to continue to have issues.

For factory, I would look at brands like FGMM, Blackhills, and Berger. Hornady is decent too, but I've always had pretty high ES/SD's from it. You may be able to send your brass to a company like @CopperCreekAmmo or @Rio Precision Gunworks, and they may be able to develop good ammo for you with brass you've already purchased.

Personally I wouldn't spend money on a tuner, there's a bit of snake oil there. Sometimes hanging a weight off your barrel will help - but a suppressor will do the same thing. Just don't think that moving a small weight a few thousandths of an inch will make any real dramatic impact on your precision and unlock some sort of magical precision node.
 
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Chris W. said:
Is your Lapua Brass all from the same lot? Do you anneal?

I have used to the Redding Body Die and Lee Collet and gotten under 5 SD and like 12 fps ES with once fired lapua brass (same lot).
Click to expand...
Yeah same lot. And yes I’ve tried annealing with an induction style annealer and tried not annealing
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Yeah same lot. And yes I’ve tried annealing with an induction style annealer and tried not annealing
Click to expand...

I personally don't think annealing is going to make much of a difference on ES/SD. At least not early on in the life of the brass. That's not your problem.
 
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kthomas said:
That's a bummer.

I would also be incredibly frustrated if I put that much energy into reloading, but couldn't get adequate results. So I totally understand where you are coming from. You are using all good components. Personally I had an issue with my Redding FL die and 6.5 Creedmoor, for some reason I could never get a consistent shoulder bump from it. Replacing it with a Whidden die solved that problem. But if I was in your shoes, I would be really hesitant to continue to pour money into reloading to continue to have issues.

For factory, I would look at brands like FGMM, Blackhills, and Berger. Hornady is decent too, but I've always had pretty high ES/SD's from it. You may be able to send your brass to a company like @CopperCreekAmmo or @Rio Precision Gunworks, and they may be able to develop good ammo for you with brass you've already purchased.

Personally I wouldn't spend money on a tuner, there's a bit of snake oil there. Sometimes hanging a weight off your barrel will help - but a suppressor will do the same thing. Just don't think that moving a small weight a few thousandths of an inch will make any real dramatic impact on your precision and unlock some sort of magical precision node.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Yeah I’m pulling my hair out at this point. I keep trying everything people say (I know they mean well) and I’m seeing no better results

First it was change from Hornady to Lapua.

Then it was anneal

Then brush necks and more neck tension and use dry lube since you’ll have .003-.004 neck tension

Etc…

I’ve been spending so much time at 100 yards trying to improve the ES/SD (about any of my reloads group well at 100) that I haven’t been focusing on my long range and positional shooting so I’ve really been pissing money away lol
 
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kthomas said:
I personally don't think annealing is going to make much of a difference on ES/SD. At least not early on in the life of the brass. That's not your problem.
Click to expand...

Unless I’m missing something it sounds like it may be the powder, but H4350 in two different 6.5s with about the same result (one shoots Lapua brass, one shoots Peterson brass) has me really perplexed since H4350 is the go to
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Unless I’m missing something it sounds like it may be the powder, but H4350 in two different 6.5s with about the same result (one shoots Lapua brass, one shoots Peterson brass) has me really perplexed since H4350 is the go to
Click to expand...

I can't imagine it's the powder.

If you really wanted to, you could get 1 lb of a different powder, like VV N150 to try. Or a different lot of H4350.

ETA: I did have a jug of powder of H4350 that did get contaminated or "stale", and that did produce high ES/SD for me. I don't really remember the exact specifics of what went wrong there, but I do know that changing to a different lot of H4350 fixed that problem. So maybe it is the powder.
 
Autotrickler/Supertrickler go down to .02 grains. Thats the single biggest thing you can do to get your ES/SD down.

Use a good bushing die (RCBS, Wilson, Forster) and a Mandrel Die or just get a SAC all in one. This is how you control neck tension.

Reloading is not hard. You want good equipment to make it repeatable/easy.

1. Anneal and Deprime. AMP and a Lee APP with Mighty Armory decapping die.

2. Wet tumbler, with no pins with Brass Juice/Boretech Brass Cleaner and a squirt of dawn. 20-40 minutes max.

3. Dry in dehydrator or oven.

4. Lube cases with Lanolin10%/ISOPro 90% mix. Get a squirt bottle and squirt a few on cases and use hand to mix. Let sit for 5-10 minutes for alch to burn off.

5. Using a SAC comparitor and a good set of calipers, check your Headspace (Base to shoulder). You want to set up your bushing die (which should be 2X the case neck thickness + bullet diameter - .002-.003. So .014x2 + .264 - .002 = .289 bushing.) for a .002-.004 shoulder bump. That means the number is smaller by that amount after you size it. So if its 1.986 it should bne 1.982-84 after sizing. Run it through a mandrel. I think I use .2630 for mine. Gives you about .001 of neck tension but consistent neck tension is more important than the actual figure.

6. Time to clean lube. Back in wet tumbler for same process as before. Dry like before.

7. Now you need to trim, even if its just cleaning up the case mouth and taking .001 off, trim every time. Just like you anneal every time. Same process every time breeds consistency. Henderson is the standard. Giraud will work as well.

8. Time to Prime. Either hand prime or use a CPS or a press. I like the little RCBS hand primers for $50. You can feel everything and it can be done in front of the TV

9. Time to charge. Set your ST/AT to a _+.02. So if your charge is 40.80 you should only be using 40.78-40.82. This is the biggest factor in your SD/ES. H4350 is all I use in 6.5cm and 6GT. Its fantastic powder.

10. Time to Seat. Use a good micrometer die. This is why you use berger hybrids, they don't give a shit where you seat them. I haven't touched my seating die in years, dont even know what they are. Just make sure there is at least .020-.030 jump and send it.

Thats it. 3-6 SD ammo every time. I could get more out of it, but for what we shoot (PRS) its more than good enough. Ammo shoots in the .3-.5's without even doing load development/seating depth testing.

Even the best factory ammo is going to have an SD over 10. The best value 6.5CM ammo is the Norma 143, which is like 25 bucks a box. You still are looking at about $1/round after brass is sold. You can load amazing ammo for less.

.10 Lapua Brass (assume 10-12x firings before loss or destroyed)
.10 CCI 450 primer
.60 Berger Hybrid
.26 H4350 ($350/jug = 43.50lb /7000 x 41 grains)

$1.06 for 3.5 SD loads around 15ES. Subtract case cost and its less. You can get primers, bullets and powder even cheaper. Even the best semi custom ammo from a place like CC, UKM, Eagle eye will cost you $50 bucks/20 round and its not going to shoot as well.
 
kthomas said:
I personally don't think annealing is going to make much of a difference on ES/SD. At least not early on in the life of the brass. That's not your problem.
Click to expand...
It did for me. Makes sizing repeatable and that helps keep neck tension consistent. I saw a big drop in ES/SD when i moved to the AMP. Its why I am such a big proponent of it and anyone reloading should have one if you are even semi serious about this.
 
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DeathBeforeDismount said:
It did for me. Makes sizing repeatable and that helps keep neck tension consistent. I saw a big drop in ES/SD when i moved to the AMP. Its why I am such a big proponent of it and anyone reloading should have one if you are even semi serious about this.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I also use an AMP, but can't say that it's improved my ES/SD to any real meaningful degree.
 
For me, consistent neck tension has been the most important factor to reducing SD's and ESs. I use a a Forster shoulder bump and bushing die to size the minimal amount necessary and anneal after every firing (flame, not induction yet), and that did the most to reduce my ES from around 20-40 to in the 10's-20's.
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
First, reloading with current (last few years) component prices puts me near the same cost as buying factory ammo once selling the brass from factory ammo. If I can’t produce better than factory ammo, I’m legitimately wasting my time

Second, I’ve been trying to unfuck my reloading process with the help of this forum as well as others over the last 3 months. I’ve tried about eveytbing in two different 6.5 rifles. I’m using quality brass (Lapua and Peterson, in fact Hornady gives me about the same ES), H4350 (measured with an auto trickler so I’d say +-.1 maybe .2 grains at most), Fed match primers, Hornady 147,143,Barnes 145, Berger 140. In the past I used Lee FL did. Now Im bumping the shoulder with Redding body die, setting neck with Lee collet die (the standard mandrel size that gives about 1 thou neck tension and a minus one mandrel that gives about 3-4 thou neck tension). Also brought in induction DIY annealer to see if that was my problem. Just yesterday I tried brushing my necks and using imperial dry lube on the inside of the neck because someone told me that would solve my issue.

Between about Jan 2024 and now I’ve shot approx 350 rounds trying to figure out my ES/SD issue. It’s gotten no worse and no better compared to when I was using Hornady brass, FL Lee die, no annealing.

The reloads easily group well (10 shot groups) but ES/SD is no bueno. And I believe it shows at med/long range because I have more consistent hits with Hornady match ammo (ES around 20). Data is from a Labrador so I have to believe it’s accurate data

All all ears on how to unfuck my reloading but I’ve tried just about everything and none of it has helped
Click to expand...
Have you thought about trying a different powder? Varget is extremely consistent, and so is StaBall 6.5, StaBall Match, and LeverEvolution... All of these are popping up at stores pretty regularly now.

Also, are you recalibrating your auto scale before EACH reloading session? Let the scale warmup for about 30-60 minutes before use, then calibrate it. Then start your charging.

Also, good dies will go a long way... Personally I won't own anything made by Lee. It's cheap junk. Even regular old plain $40-$50 a set RCBS dies are better than Lee dies...How do I know this? Experience. I used Lee dies at the reloading plant (it's what the owner wanted to use) and they were junk. Eventually we swapped over to Mighty Armory dies, and started making some good consistent ammo. I use RCBS, Redding, and Hornady dies at home, and no issues. It's not about how much they cost, it's about how good the quality is.
 
FuhQ said:
Experience. I used Lee dies at the reloading plant (it's what the owner wanted to use) and they were junk. Eventually we swapped over to Mighty Armory dies, and started making some good consistent ammo.
Click to expand...
What is a reloading plant?
 
Not a reloader, so I have zero to contribute on that front.

However, I have to agree with BurtG on Hornady American Gunner being good ammo for the price. While it has been a while since I've shot any, my experience based on shooting several hundred rounds at distances out to about 800 yards is that it's been only slightly less accurate than Hornady ELD. That's out of my Tikka. I suppose YMMV. But at a little over $1 per round (like everything it used to be a lot cheaper) I've found it to be a good budget alternative.

Also, not sure what the story is with Prime Ammo. Bought a bunch of ammo from them probably 4-5 years ago and had a good experience. But I do seem to recall there were subsequently some serious problems with people not getting the ammo they ordered and/or inability to deliver. Just don't know what the current story is.
 
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Prime is gone. It was rebranded RUAG/Norma. Just buy Norma Golden target if you want the old prime loads.

Prime still "makes" ammo but its now made in USA on Peterson brass. Its also expensive as fuck which is why no one buys it. $2/rd+. Might as well buy factory berger at that price and get lapua brass with it.

American gunner is junk. I competed my first season of PRS with it. You cant even really find it anymore and all honrady ammo has gotten shittier since pre-covid. Past 600 you get insane flyers and it wont hold a waterline. The BC variance of the bullets is nuts, along with crazy high SD/ES due to poor loading protocols. That's what happens when prices and demand are sky high and you are trying to pump out as much product as possible.

Norma is twice the quality ammo hornady is at a cheaper price. The rest of the cheap 6.5cm ammo like S&B is garbage.
 
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Autotrickler/Supertrickler go down to .02 grains. Thats the single biggest thing you can do to get your ES/SD down.

Use a good bushing die (RCBS, Wilson, Forster) and a Mandrel Die or just get a SAC all in one. This is how you control neck tension.

Reloading is not hard. You want good equipment to make it repeatable/easy.

1. Anneal and Deprime. AMP and a Lee APP with Mighty Armory decapping die.

2. Wet tumbler, with no pins with Brass Juice/Boretech Brass Cleaner and a squirt of dawn. 20-40 minutes max.

3. Dry in dehydrator or oven.

4. Lube cases with Lanolin10%/ISOPro 90% mix. Get a squirt bottle and squirt a few on cases and use hand to mix. Let sit for 5-10 minutes for alch to burn off.

5. Using a SAC comparitor and a good set of calipers, check your Headspace (Base to shoulder). You want to set up your bushing die (which should be 2X the case neck thickness + bullet diameter - .002-.003. So .014x2 + .264 - .002 = .289 bushing.) for a .002-.004 shoulder bump. That means the number is smaller by that amount after you size it. So if its 1.986 it should bne 1.982-84 after sizing. Run it through a mandrel. I think I use .2630 for mine. Gives you about .001 of neck tension but consistent neck tension is more important than the actual figure.

6. Time to clean lube. Back in wet tumbler for same process as before. Dry like before.

7. Now you need to trim, even if its just cleaning up the case mouth and taking .001 off, trim every time. Just like you anneal every time. Same process every time breeds consistency. Henderson is the standard. Giraud will work as well.

8. Time to Prime. Either hand prime or use a CPS or a press. I like the little RCBS hand primers for $50. You can feel everything and it can be done in front of the TV

9. Time to charge. Set your ST/AT to a _+.02. So if your charge is 40.80 you should only be using 40.78-40.82. This is the biggest factor in your SD/ES. H4350 is all I use in 6.5cm and 6GT. Its fantastic powder.

10. Time to Seat. Use a good micrometer die. This is why you use berger hybrids, they don't give a shit where you seat them. I haven't touched my seating die in years, dont even know what they are. Just make sure there is at least .020-.030 jump and send it.

Thats it. 3-6 SD ammo every time. I could get more out of it, but for what we shoot (PRS) its more than good enough. Ammo shoots in the .3-.5's without even doing load development/seating depth testing.

Even the best factory ammo is going to have an SD over 10. The best value 6.5CM ammo is the Norma 143, which is like 25 bucks a box. You still are looking at about $1/round after brass is sold. You can load amazing ammo for less.

.10 Lapua Brass (assume 10-12x firings before loss or destroyed)
.10 CCI 450 primer
.60 Berger Hybrid
.26 H4350 ($350/jug = 43.50lb /7000 x 41 grains)

$1.06 for 3.5 SD loads around 15ES. Subtract case cost and its less. You can get primers, bullets and powder even cheaper. Even the best semi custom ammo from a place like CC, UKM, Eagle eye will cost you $50 bucks/20 round and its not going to shoot as well.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you taking the time to write that all out. My reloading scale is a frankford Intellidropper which is accurate to .1 grain so probably more like .2 grains

Outside of that I follow a similar process as you (I use Redding body die, Lee collet die) so I’m not sure where I get off track on my ES/SD? I am doubtful it’s the .1-.2 grain variance in my scale

And on the price of powder, it’s approx $60/lb if you find it locally or about the same if you wait for free hazmat

Norma gold target match 130 can be found for approx $1.25 including shipping. That may be the way I should go and then sell the brass afterwards to get me close to $1 net cost
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
I appreciate you taking the time to write that all out. My reloading scale is a frankford Intellidropper which is accurate to .1 grain so probably more like .2 grains

Outside of that I follow a similar process as you (I use Redding body die, Lee collet die) so I’m not sure where I get off track on my ES/SD? I am doubtful it’s the .1-.2 grain variance in my scale

And on the price of powder, it’s approx $60/lb if you find it locally or about the same if you wait for free hazmat

Norma gold target match 130 can be found for approx $1.25 including shipping. That may be the way I should go and then sell the brass afterwards to get me close to $1 net cost
Click to expand...

Just because a scale reads to 0.1 grains, doesn't mean its accurate to 0.1 grains.

At only $200 for an integrated scale and powder dropper, I have a really hard time buying that its even accurate to 0.2 grains.
 
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It's not that hard to load and you don't need a ton of equipment. I take my fired brass and toss it in a corn media tumbler for about 4-6 hours. Then I spray with One Shot and run it through my FL bushing die in my Hornady Iron Press setting .002" of neck tension. Then it gets trimmed/chamfered/deburred in my Giraud. I run a primer pocket uniformer on a drill in the primer pockets which is fast. Then I toss it in the tumlber for about 15-30 min to get any lube off and then prime them all and bag them. I do large brass prep sessions so all I have to do when I load is throw powder and seat a bullet.

Most would laugh at my powder thrower as it's a standard old style and I hand trickle and then dump into case with my funnel with a 4" tube. I have no issues getting single digit SDs. Just loaded up a bunch of ARC and some .308 for my new barrel and all was single digit SD. I seat bullets on the same press as I sized on. It's a KISS set up that has worked for years.
 
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Rob01 said:
It's not that hard to load and you don't need a ton of equipment. I take my fired brass and toss it in a corn media tumbler for about 4-6 hours. Then I spray with One Shot and run it through my FL bushing die in my Hornady Iron Press setting .002" of neck tension. Then it gets trimmed/chamfered/deburred in my Giraud. I run a primer pocket uniformer on a drill in the primer pockets which is fast. Then I toss it in the tumlber for about 15-30 min to get any lube off and then prime them all and bag them. I do large brass prep sessions so all I have to do when I load is throw powder and seat a bullet.

Most would laugh at my powder thrower as it's a standard old style and I hand trickle and then dump into case with my funnel with a 4" tube. I have no issues getting single digit SDs. Just loaded up a bunch of ARC and some .308 for my new barrel and all was single digit SD. I seat bullets on the same press as I sized on. It's a KISS set up that has worked for years.
Click to expand...
Then this brings me to it being the powder? I’ve kept it simple and I’ve kept it complicated (currently) and my ES are the same

What powder scale do you use?
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Then this brings me to it being the powder? I’ve kept it simple and I’ve kept it complicated (currently) and my ES are the same

What powder scale do you use?
Click to expand...

It's not the H4350. That powder is what made the Creedmoor and all I have used since 2008 in many barrels.

I use an RCBS 5-0-5. Cheap and simple but works.
 
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Can folks post up round counts when they reference their SDs?

The 6.5CM ammo that I've bought in the last year or two has been noticeably lacking in terms of muzzle velocity SDs. For 20-rounds, I've seen a lot of 15 - 20+ fps SDs out of recent factory 6.5 CM.

Factory 6CM ammo has been a bit better for me recently in terms of MV SDs, and I've seen several options with high single digit/low teens SDs over 20-rounds.
 
Rob01 said:
It's not the H4350. That powder is what made the Creedmoor and all I have used since 2008 in many barrels.

I use an RCBS 5-0-5. Cheap and simple but works.
Click to expand...

Giving it another try today. Taking 5 twice fired (annealed after 1st firing but not after second firing) Peterson brass and 5 once fired (annealed after first firing) brass. Going to shoot them in separate strings and compare. If they shows promising numbers I’ll do a larger test to confirm

Bumped the shoulders approx .003 using a RCBS FL die I haven’t tried until now. Shoulder bump was more consistent on the once fired because it was just annealed

Neck tension is going to be approx .002 so looking good there

Brushed the necks

Did not use any dry lube on the ID (only ever done this yesterday to give it a try)

Verified the powder charge on the Intellidropper and double checked on a cheap $50 electronic reloading scale and every powder charge matched (I know it’s not perfectly the same but best I can do with what I have currently)

Will follow up with results from Labrador
 
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Are you using bushing dies? Unless they are custom honed for your cartridge/case then you really have no idea what the next tension is. Its a guess at best. Add in not annealing and bingo. Inconsistent neck tension = bad SD/ES.

Also, your dropper is a piece of shit. Buy a AT/ST and watch that number magically come down. Its a cheap Chinese knock off and just because it tells you a number, doesn't mean its repeatable or accurate. You need a .02 scale that's actually repeatable like a FX120I

A .5% or 40.5 vs 40.7 variance of powder assuming its a 1:1 with velocity change (its not) accounts for about 13.5 FPS difference in a 2700 fps load. That doesn't include ANY other variable. Your variance could actually be much higher depending on scale drift, split loading sessions, ect.

A .1% or 40.58-40.62 variance (using what i told you (ST/AT)) is about a 3 FPS difference. That is 1/4th the variance of your scale, or 4 times more accurate, if not more.

You can run the sims in Quickload or GRT and see how much of a difference a .2 grain charge is . Its like 30-50 FPS in some of my 6.5CM loads.

Get your powder charge controlled first and foremost. Anything else you do is a waste of time and money at this point before you get that sorted out.
 
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DeathBeforeDismount said:
Are you using bushing dies? Unless they are custom honed for your cartridge/case then you really have no idea what the next tension is. Its a guess at best. Add in not annealing and bingo. Inconsistent neck tension = bad SD/ES.

Also, your dropper is a piece of shit. Buy a AT/ST and watch that number magically come down. Its a cheap Chinese knock off and just because it tells you a number, doesn't mean its repeatable or accurate. You need a .02 scale that's actually repeatable like a FX120I

A .5% or 40.5 vs 40.7 variance of powder assuming its a 1:1 with velocity change (its not) accounts for about 13.5 FPS difference in a 2700 fps load. That doesn't include ANY other variable. Your variance could actually be much higher depending on scale drift, split loading sessions, ect.

A .1% or 40.58-40.62 variance (using what i told you (ST/AT)) is about a 3 FPS difference. That is 1/4th the variance of your scale, or 4 times more accurate, if not more.

You can run the sims in Quickload or GRT and see how much of a difference a .2 grain charge is . Its like 30-50 FPS in some of my 6.5CM loads.

Get your powder charge controlled first and foremost. Anything else you do is a waste of time and money at this point before you get that sorted out.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the info.

To clarify because I often see people saying on I just throw charges and get small ES/SD. Is their sample size of Es/SD just too small? You’d think with the math above that even over just a 5 shot group when throwing charges that they’d see at least a 50 fps difference
 
SlowMiss6.5 said:
Thanks again for the info.

To clarify because I often see people saying on I just throw charges and get small ES/SD. Is their sample size of Es/SD just too small? You’d think with the math above that even over just a 5 shot group when throwing charges that they’d see at least a 50 fps difference
Click to expand...
50 es is (loosely) ~12.5 SD...thats completely normal...assuming its a real number like n=20 rounds...

AFAIK, you won't (typically) see this 12 vs 10 SD stuff on target inside 1000 yds. 10SD is typically going to hold 1.0 vertical moa at 1000 yds in 6.5CM.... But while 12 SD will miss occasionally, note this is ONLY at the limit...ie of ES..., so a group will be good at least 70-90% of the shots, meaning your misses are in the residual 10% of shots only...ie, you won't typically "see" it right away, ie without testing protocols in place....

[ETA - by testing protocols, I mean...A 95% ES will miss 1/20 and 90% ES will miss 2/20...a single 5 shot group won't tell you what is going on fully...]

On the other hand, in my experience, you won't typicaly get SDs lower than around 8 (ES 32-48) with 6.5CM without high end gear or unlimited patience...ie, using manual gear to the Nth degree by hand like BR guys do or whatever...

This is just for refrence. Berger ammo was 10SD before the Pandemic, it might be as good. The best "cheap ammo" is 12-15 SD using Hornady Brass and 140 HPBT, around $1.25/round...

AFAIK, just the lower quality brass will cost your around 2-3 SD...at least thats why my testing has shown... on both Factory and reloads...YMMV...There's also potential for a loss of 1-2SD from not using match grade primers...and then 1-2SD from using bulk vs higher precision (lab scale) charging methods...so most of the variances seem accounted for without a lot of crazy assumptions being made.

I'm only mentioning all of this since this thread seems confusing on what the basic benchmarks are. So this is my $.02 on a frame work. Other people might have different ideas/experiences....
 
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It depends on what you are trying to do. Shoot dirt or hunt out to 500 yards? Doesn't matter.

Go shoot some PRS matches where targets keep getting smaller, it does. We shoot alot of 1.5 moa and smaller targets. Now add wind.

F class/Benchrest and other uber accuracy sports..... Yea it really matters.

A 10 SD load that shoots 3/4moa will cost you points at a match. Could be alot or a little depending on shooter and match difficulty.

If you are going to take the time to reload, do it right. Doesnt take any more time but results can be night and day.

Most factory ammo is not 10SD, more like 15-20, even the match stuff. Shoot enough of it and you see the true numbers.

"match" grade primers are a myth. There is no real measurable difference, at least not enough to matter. Almost everyone I know runs CCI450s.
 
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