Whichever is most readily available and shoots the tightest. Probably can't lose with any of those if you can get one to shoot.
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
Why a 155? It has a crap BC and you have a short barrel so not going to be able to get it going as fast as the people who usually shoot them with 28-30" Barrels. I would be using one of the new 168-178grn bullets with they much better BCs in your set up.
Or give the new Sierra 169 Matchking a look. It has been extremely accurate in my M1A.
I'm giving thought to trying cortinas blackjack challenge. I wanted something I can drive the snot out of and limit the recoil a bit. It only has to go 500 yards. The rifle has a load with a 178 that it likes but it's a bit much.
I guess I could always revisit the old standby 168 smk. I haven't loaded any in this rifle since it got its new barrel.
The 168 SMK is another crap bullet in this day and age. The BC is terrible compared to the 168 ELD-M or the 169 mentioned. I would try both of those before a 155 or 168 SMK.
Wish I could help but never went over 190grns with the .308. For my shooting needs the super heavies never gave any advantage. Sorry. I am sure someone else will chime in as I know some here do use those.
Many years ago, I fired over 17,000 rds of 308 155 Lapua Scenar, with max loads of Varget, and single digit S/Ds, with 27" barrels...it was used to 1400yds.
It will work at 500 yards with ease, even in a 20".
My 16" AR 10 was shooting a variety 155s 2800 to 2900 fps, the worst of the lot was 155 tipped SMK...switched to the 168 ELDM and got 1/2" 5 shot groups at 2756 fps average...so that's what I set it up for.
The 169 and 177 SMK are much better than the 168 SMK. The 168 ELDM has a good BC for a 168, if your barrel likes it.
Today I prefer to shoot 8 and 9 twist 308 barrels, with bullets from 200gr to 230 gr and longer barrels to 30" for long range endevors.....even the 22" hunting version has a 9 twist for 200gr to 230 gr bullets.
It will work at 500 yards with ease, even in a 20".
My 16" AR 10 was shooting a variety 155s 2800 to 2900 fps, the worst of the lot was 155 tipped SMK...switched to the 168 ELDM and got 1/2" 5 shot groups at 2756 fps average...so that's what I set it up for.
The 169 and 177 SMK are much better than the 168 SMK. The 168 ELDM has a good BC for a 168, if your barrel likes it.
Today I prefer to shoot 8 and 9 twist 308 barrels, with bullets from 200gr to 230 gr and longer barrels to 30" for long range endevors.....even the 22" hunting version has a 9 twist for 200gr to 230 gr bullets.
Berger 155.5 Fullbore bullets are the gold standard in that weight class. There is a reason top Palma shooters use them exclusively.
For the blackjack challenge you should use the heaviest Berger you can that shoots small groups. For known distance shooting, heavy and slow beat fast and light almost every time. Heavy bullets have less wind drift than the lighter bullets.
For the blackjack challenge you should use the heaviest Berger you can that shoots small groups. For known distance shooting, heavy and slow beat fast and light almost every time. Heavy bullets have less wind drift than the lighter bullets.
Last edited:
I have a 20" being built now in a 1-10 twist with JGS reamer specifically for 200 gr Berger Hybrids at 2.950 OAL. Initially, I was going to chamber it for the 215 but felt the shorter barrel would limit velocity too much with that heavy of a projectile.
All depends on how you set up your 308, as to whether it would be slow with the heavier bullets. Long action, short action, barrel twist, barrel length, cartridge overall length, etc.
First experiment with Hornady 225 gr ELDM running over 2700 fps with a 308 hybrid case...they run 2674 fps in Lapua cases.
Not exactly slow for a 308 case.
But every time you compromise with shorter barrels, those velocities are diminished, as is the performance.
The application depends on the purpose, and performance you want, and the range one is likely to shoot.
This is a maximum effort no compromise 308 with 30" heavy palma 8 twist 5 R barrel, in an aluminum chassis, with a long action.
It will run 200 to 250 gr Atips, and has made 4000 ft/lb of energy, out of the 308 case.
I have many other 308s from 16" to 30" barrels, with twist rates from 12 to 8, ultra light to heavy...So I understand the compromises,...But never stopped pushing the envelope, or experimenting with the 308, over the years.
It's a hobby, as a retired machinist who builds his own rifles, I can incorporate any idea, I desire, with no waiting on a gunsmith. Big advantage.
Example: just built an AR 10 in 338 RCM with an 18" barrel, cause I wanted a magnum cartridge in an AR. So I get to exercise my weird-ass ideas...
Helpful? Sometimes...
First experiment with Hornady 225 gr ELDM running over 2700 fps with a 308 hybrid case...they run 2674 fps in Lapua cases.
Not exactly slow for a 308 case.
But every time you compromise with shorter barrels, those velocities are diminished, as is the performance.
The application depends on the purpose, and performance you want, and the range one is likely to shoot.
This is a maximum effort no compromise 308 with 30" heavy palma 8 twist 5 R barrel, in an aluminum chassis, with a long action.
It will run 200 to 250 gr Atips, and has made 4000 ft/lb of energy, out of the 308 case.
I have many other 308s from 16" to 30" barrels, with twist rates from 12 to 8, ultra light to heavy...So I understand the compromises,...But never stopped pushing the envelope, or experimenting with the 308, over the years.
It's a hobby, as a retired machinist who builds his own rifles, I can incorporate any idea, I desire, with no waiting on a gunsmith. Big advantage.
Example: just built an AR 10 in 338 RCM with an 18" barrel, cause I wanted a magnum cartridge in an AR. So I get to exercise my weird-ass ideas...
Helpful? Sometimes...
Attachments
As ridiculous as it sounds, this is the first .308 bolt gun I've ever owned. Have had about 15 M1A's in every configuration possible, but they're limits are restricted to traditional .308 loads.
Wanted to keep it .308 for a lot of reasons. I'm already set up to reload .30 in general and prefer that bullet diameter over everything else and I'm stocked up with .308 supplies. It's accurate and mild to shoot and barrel life will usually surpass most other cartridges. I also wanted a mid-weight, short, easy to maneuver rifle that I could still have fun shooting out to 1200 yards. Lapua brass was a must as was the ability to shoot factory ammo that is common enough to find everywhere.
Sent a dummy rd to JGS with Lapua brass and a Berger 200 hybrid loaded at 2.950", short enough to take advantage of a Wyatt extended box and just long enough to grow with the chamber erosion. Played with a lot of other projectiles, including the 215, but could not make it work at the OAL I needed and keep the velocity to a respectable number. Hoping 2450-2500 with the 200 gr. Oddly enough the freebore dimension came out almost perfect at .087 which if I push the bullet back .003, will give me SAMMI freebore and the ability to run factory ammo safely. 20" barrel, 10 twist.
Yes they do have a better BC which will help with wind but the newer, lighter bullets have almost the BC. The 200 Hybrids have a .616 and the Hornady 174 ELD-VTs have a .573 so you can get close. Any of the 168+ bullets will give good splash at that range. I have no problem seeing them hit the steel or the dirt.
I know this is nit-picking, but I'm a Berger whore for the most part. They just seem to be more consistent at longer ranges than others I have used and I haven't had any blow up in faster twist barrels. The new Sierra 169 seemed to be a good fit for an M1A, and at least at short ranges I've been impressed with it's performance. I have yet to make it out to 600 or longer yet, so I can't speak for distance yet.
The 200 Hybrid is a proven bullet many times over. I know a lot of people have success with tipped bullets but no one in F-class anywhere uses them, the competitors swear by Bergers, and my results at long range have been consistent enough to stick with them.
Wasn’t trying to talk you out of them but just didn’t want you to think you had to use something that heavy in the 20”. Those 169 will work too.
Oh I understand completely. I've always gravitated towards heavy for caliber bullets.
Off topic completely, sorta, what's the best heavy for caliber in a 6.5 Creedmoor? Wind, energy, you know, the thing....
I'm using the 153 ATips now and they work great in the Creedmoor. Getting them to 2680fps with H4350.
I got slightly ahead of myself with the reamer information. Freebore of .087 on my rd means the datum point is actually .027 shorter than SAMMI so any factory rd will be jamming hard. I need to extend the freebore to .114 and jump my rd .027. or in that range to allow the datum point for a standard .308 to load safely. Still doable though.
Always gotta throw in the 6.5 CM...
I have 2 of them, and like them.
But the 308 set up properly will do better in most instances...I have 8 308s.
This is a $600 rifle built from a new barrel and spare parts, with my reamer, and lathe.
It's 308 with a 22" Bartlein 5 R 9 twist shooting 200 gr SMK .715 BC at 2740 fps, which will spank your 6.5 CM load with 153 Atips... plus longer barrels and hybrid cases put over 2900 fps in a 200 gr SMK.
I had to go to 80,000 psi hybrid cases in the 6.5 CM to get it to back in contention with my 308 loads.
Plus the 9 twist can shoot the .8 BC plus bullets in the 22".
The 308 case and old outdated bullets still work...but you don't have to use them.
All cartridges can be improved on, new powders, bullets, and ideas, keeps up the competition.
Attachments
What powder and OAL are you using with that 200gr Matchking?
Put your reading glasses on and look at the post above mine that I was answering. Not just throwing in the Creedmoor.
Since you like Bergers ...here's a 200.2 gr 20X Berger load, from the 22" barrel.
Just under 2700 fps.
I use an MDT detachable center feed mag without the center support to feed 2.990" inch cartridges, these are slightly longer, probably next to the lands...for this rifle only.
I have long action 308 30" 8 twist that feeds 3.4" cartridges incase one wants to run 250 gr Atips in the 308.
The Bergers shoot good and are consistent but they are not always the most accurate, and the SMK have a much higher BC, it depends on what the barrel likes... with the powder used.
My 6 Dasher loves Berger bullets, extremely accurate, so I bought thousands of them.
There are lots of choices for the 308, it's easily a 1200 yd rifle these days with a variety of new bullets available.
The Berger 168 gr "hunting" will run over 2900 fps in the 22" barrel, but every 308 I fired it in, prefers other brands and is one of the least accurate bullets I've ever shot, no powdet charge, no twist rate likes this bullet, in 8 308s it's inaccurate.
I bought a box of 500 and must have got a bad batch, even the 300 blackout or the 300 hamr doesn't like them...they are almost gone. I will never buy another box of those Berger bullets.
So try a 100 box before you buy 500 box of any bullet, before going on manufactures reputation, or others suggestions.
Attachments
I'm guessing he was referencing the picture below the text, however, while you can make out 2000MR, the charge weight is covered.
But you did...
To answer a question that was asked. Do you not get that?
But double down on making that stupid post. That’s fine.
Yeah, I know, ya just needed to get your 6.5 CM fix in the discussion.
I like the 6.5 CM, but only because I use hybrid cases in mine to bring up the performance level, but try to leave it out of a 308 discussion, where it serves no useful purpose. But thanks for your input.
Listen jack ass. I didn’t bring the Creedmoor to the discussion. I answered a question but your ignorance let’s you keep doubling down. You want to play stupid then have at it but others see what happened and you are just making yourself look stupider so carry on. Lol
If I wanted to listen to your 6.5 escapades I go to the 6.5 CM thread.
Here you offered nothing, but more 6.5 egotistical anger.
So when I shoot my 6.5 CM the next time maybe you'll join me for a more civil, and productive discussion...over there.
So why? You knew better... "Off topic completely" Your Quote as an opening statement, to bring in the 6.5 CM.
And He proudly "volunteered" to answer... plus even more information than you asked, like his muzzle velocity...on a 308 Discussion, instead of ignoring you.
You wouldn't put up with that rude interpretation in a 6.5 CM discussion, and that's a fact.
Answering an off topic question interrupts and often highjacks the original discussion.
I've answered on topic questions and that upsets some.
We all see it.
I shoot many calibers, the one I'm shooting at the time, is the one I'm interested in that day, ... maybe I don't want to hear about a new LR magnum that just hit the market.
Cause I'm shooting an 1886 Win in 45-90.
But maybe in a few weeks I'll be back on the 6.5 CM or the 50BMG.
There seem to be rules for some and not for others.
I'd rather keep it civil and have a civil discussion about all things 6.5 Creedmoor, over there, all of us engaging in the same topic. Civility is uncommon here.
Yeah I am an ass trying to help people. LOL Save that BS. You have taken this thread more off topic with your BS posts about me answering a question. But that's ok huh? LOL
Last edited:
Don't know about all that BS, Damn, I remember the old forum where members only posted the basic's , ie,
1. Bbl. make & length
2.case and primer
3. powder and amount
4. bullet , make and Wt.
AND none of this "whine & cheese" BS where where members post crap trying to show everyone else how smart they think they are , or in effect just to hear themselves talk
1. Bbl. make & length
2.case and primer
3. powder and amount
4. bullet , make and Wt.
AND none of this "whine & cheese" BS where where members post crap trying to show everyone else how smart they think they are , or in effect just to hear themselves talk
Need some input on vihtavuori powders in the 308. I'm looking at N140, N150 and N540. I've never tried them before. I mostly shoot 168-178gr bullets. If there's a VV powder that works for 308 and 75+ gr 223 that's all the better.
Looking at the VV website they say they all will work but if anyone has any experience please chime in.
Looking at the VV website they say they all will work but if anyone has any experience please chime in.
N140 is what you want. 150 would be good for 200+gr bullets but its a touch slow for 175ish stuff. 540 is double base and is known for burning out 308 barrels in F class a little faster than normal but I'm sure you could get it shooting well. N140 is great stuff. 140 is also used with 77gr Bergers in their factory loading and I have had great luck with it in 223 shooting 75-80gr stuff.
This thread is 308 loads. It's about people listing loads that work, so others can replicate, ask questions, and gain knowledge. see post #2 and #3
It's not about, my secret sauce is better, but it depends on the reamer, and each load is different, yada yada bullshit. But I won't share it, because it's that secret and special.
If you don't want to contribute, other than showing some FPS and deviation on your Chrono and saying, my secret sauce can do this.
--you just entered Troll territory.
Once again, this thread is about helping others.
I believe MOST people have an ideal, what the Berger 200.x or 20X can do, hence why the F team started using it.
2 pages of BULLshit thread from you saying he said this first.
Personally, I think @Rob01 needs to go back and delete most of the last 2 pages, since @45-90 hasn't contributed CRAP to this thread.
Pat yourself on the back with your insightful commentary about
"You'll have to work up loads for your rifles chamber....every barrel and chamber is different."
NO SHIT.
Present REAL info, like what load for what chamber, so people can actually make real decisions, and ask questions, to promote learning.
Your troll aspect with intentional obfuscation
Use this powder, but won't tell anyone how much I use, because, then people can actually pressure test or see if the load makes sense for their rifle.
ReREAD this post, It will give you an idea, what this thread is about
www.snipershide.com
"You are supposed to look at the photo to get an idea of what one can do with the Berger 200.2 gr 20X. ...a very large hint!
Not to give exact data.
This is for my rifle, a 22" 5 R 9 twist Bartlein barrel, and my own chamber reamer. I have many 308s with different chambers, for different purposes.
The 22" was a fairly light portable rifle capable of dual purpose, hunting, and a long range engagement, if necessary.
You'll have to work up loads for your rifles chamber....every barrel and chamber is different.
There is enough basic information to get near the same performance, or better with a little effort, for your rifle."
It's not about, my secret sauce is better, but it depends on the reamer, and each load is different, yada yada bullshit. But I won't share it, because it's that secret and special.
If you don't want to contribute, other than showing some FPS and deviation on your Chrono and saying, my secret sauce can do this.
--you just entered Troll territory.
Once again, this thread is about helping others.
I believe MOST people have an ideal, what the Berger 200.x or 20X can do, hence why the F team started using it.
2 pages of BULLshit thread from you saying he said this first.
Personally, I think @Rob01 needs to go back and delete most of the last 2 pages, since @45-90 hasn't contributed CRAP to this thread.
Pat yourself on the back with your insightful commentary about
"You'll have to work up loads for your rifles chamber....every barrel and chamber is different."
NO SHIT.
Present REAL info, like what load for what chamber, so people can actually make real decisions, and ask questions, to promote learning.
Your troll aspect with intentional obfuscation
Use this powder, but won't tell anyone how much I use, because, then people can actually pressure test or see if the load makes sense for their rifle.
ReREAD this post, It will give you an idea, what this thread is about
.308 Winchester
VSP had a great idea to put this up as a Sticky. Since we get SO many questions about this, this will aid everyone( esp Noobs) on a good load. Please list ALL components, twist, barrel mfgr,length, neck tension. Since we know changing any variable will alter the ultimate outcome.
www.snipershide.com per - 45-90
"You are supposed to look at the photo to get an idea of what one can do with the Berger 200.2 gr 20X. ...a very large hint!
Not to give exact data.
This is for my rifle, a 22" 5 R 9 twist Bartlein barrel, and my own chamber reamer. I have many 308s with different chambers, for different purposes.
The 22" was a fairly light portable rifle capable of dual purpose, hunting, and a long range engagement, if necessary.
You'll have to work up loads for your rifles chamber....every barrel and chamber is different.
There is enough basic information to get near the same performance, or better with a little effort, for your rifle."
Babyguppy,
Thanks, for the non-concise, ever running, opinion of my posts...but the OP got enough information to be helpful to him, as stated.
But, I was pretty much on subject, IMO, ...the 308 Winchester, and you don't have to agree with any of it...and that's fine too, because noone really cares about opinions, but just looking for some information.
Discard what ya don't agree with, yours and everyone's perrogavitave.
Thanks, for the non-concise, ever running, opinion of my posts...but the OP got enough information to be helpful to him, as stated.
But, I was pretty much on subject, IMO, ...the 308 Winchester, and you don't have to agree with any of it...and that's fine too, because noone really cares about opinions, but just looking for some information.
Discard what ya don't agree with, yours and everyone's perrogavitave.
Why do you say you never liked 2156?
