Right or left ?
- Thread starter trlrman
- Start date
You would have to shoot them more to figure that out. How they shoot is a bit more important than how they look.
You need to use heat tempilaq to figure that out correctly.
Tempilaq Temperature Indicator 400 Degree 2oz
This non-flammable, quick-drying fluid dries to a dull matte finish then liquefies when the rated temperature is reached. When rated temperature is...
www.midwayusa.com
The ones on the left are likely the better cases since the annealing has moved below the body shoulder junction. This helps prevent the fatigue cracking in the body/shoulder junction.
More details about your annealing process would help. . . like, how long in the flame; what part of the flame touching what part(s) of the case. . . ???
Because cases cool off so fast, quenching them really doesn't change anything and your results, in terms of changes in hardness, is no difference between the two. The quenching just adds more work to your process. . . nothing more. You have to get the neck and shoulder really hot for quite a long time (relatively speaking) to have any problem with the case body getting too soft. Like I'm at 9-10 seconds in the flame where the neck glows red (in a darkened room) for a hair over second and it gives me the hardness, as I measure with my tool, that's equal to my virgin Lapua brass. Here's some .308 cases that I necked up and sized from Sig .277 Fury hybrid cases, which I just fired a couple days ago getting a nice 4.7 SD and ES of 15 from these 10 cartridges (keep in mind that the color you see is not a good indicator as to how much grain structure of the brass is being changed):
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Yes, this can help relieve any concern about heat traveling down the body by putting a line of this from the neck to the web. But, 400°C/750°F still isn't going to do much of anything to the body unless it's at that temperature for something like 30 seconds.You need to use heat tempilaq to figure that out correctly.
Tempilaq Temperature Indicator 400 Degree 2oz
This non-flammable, quick-drying fluid dries to a dull matte finish then liquefies when the rated temperature is reached. When rated temperature is...
I doubt the body ever gets to that temperature for much more than a second when a neck glows (say, 1200°F) for but a second or a fraction of a second. 
Before I got my AMP, I made my own flame annealer apparatus. I perfected annealing on that thing - I still think it was as good or better than what I get on the AMP (the AMP is a ton easier and quicker, though). I'm going to call out something @straightshooter1 wrote:
"Like I'm at 9-10 seconds in the flame"
The longer your annealing time, the less opportunity for variance. By pulling the flame back and lengthening the time, you might find some additional consistency.
From what I can make out in this picture of yours, it appears the center of the flame in pointing at the shoulder-body junction??? It's recommended that it should be pointing to the neck-shoulder junction where the neck can take on the heat the fastest and the most grain structure change.
If "3 1/2 -4 count" is like 3 1/2 -4 seconds . . . that's far from enough time to do much of anything for a decent annealing job. Looking at that flame (I know the lighting is hiding a lot), even 5-6 seconds isn't going to do a whole lot. When I used a flame like that one and left the brass in until I was a color change (about 5 seconds), I found my necks were much harder than I hoped. . . way harder than virgin Lapua brass, which is the standard I try to reach. I switched to a swirl flame for more heat and looked for a glow and dropped the cases out the moment it began to glow (as seen in a darkened room), which as still 5 to 6 seconds for .308 cases. Those cases got a little better, but still not down to that standard I'm looking for. That's when I upped my time to 9-10 seconds (experimenting first with some range brass) and found that amount of time brought the hardness a little below the standard I was after, but . . . the sizing afterward brought it up to what I was looking for.
The swirl flame torch head provided some extra heat over the pencil flame, but the thing I like best about it is the flame surrounds the neck all the way to include the side opposite the torch head. That provide very even results around the whole neck and shoulder. Here's a picture of how I've got my unit set up and how it's aimed to get the annealing in the right place:
Ah yes . . . with longer time there's more revolutions for the neck to get heated uniformly. I really feel going to a swirl flame provided additional consistency to the time in it.
I found that using a pencil flame torch like the one below allowed for more precise heating and kept the heat away from the body.
Bernzomatic Classic Brass Torch for Propane Gas Cylinder UL2317 - The Home Depot
Soldering, thawing frozen locks, lighting grills and fires can be a breeze by choosing this Bernzomatic Pencil Flame Brass Torch. Compatible with propane fuel.
www.homedepot.com
Yes, the pencil flame is more precise, but the swirl is a little hotter and the faster I can heat up the neck the sooner I can drop the case out of the flame. And the sooner the case is out of the flame, less heat will flow down the case. That's my theory behind it.I found that using a pencil flame torch like the one below allowed for more precise heating and kept the heat away from the body.
Bernzomatic Classic Brass Torch for Propane Gas Cylinder UL2317 - The Home Depot
Soldering, thawing frozen locks, lighting grills and fires can be a breeze by choosing this Bernzomatic Pencil Flame Brass Torch. Compatible with propane fuel.www.homedepot.com
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If you change the option selected you get a different picture based on that selection: what jrb said stands, test lower down the body with a lower degree to measure the heat migration if you are worried about it.Yes, this can help relieve any concern about heat traveling down the body by putting a line of this from the neck to the web. But, 400°C/750°F still isn't going to do much of anything to the body unless it's at that temperature for something like 30 seconds.
Slow vs fast? Does not matter. Brass doesnt harden when quenched.
I air cool just because I dont feel like dealing with wet brass and I want to get onto sizing ASAP. Air cooling takes less time than drying the brass after quenching.
Your anneal looks fine BTW. I set my torches pointing at the shoulder junction and being that the neck is alot thinner it always anneals before the shoulder.
I air cool just because I dont feel like dealing with wet brass and I want to get onto sizing ASAP. Air cooling takes less time than drying the brass after quenching.
Your anneal looks fine BTW. I set my torches pointing at the shoulder junction and being that the neck is alot thinner it always anneals before the shoulder.
Slower = less heat/unit of time
less heat/unit of time = less impact of timing variations on heating (also, as @straightshooter1 mentions, less impact of rotational differences)
Pretty obvious to most people...
Are you talking for actual torch time? I want that as short as possible and is part of the reason I run a dual torch AGS. Less time and chance for the bottom of the case to heat up. If you are talking cool down? It doesnt matter IMHO. Is it possible the heat might migrate down into the base? Yes, but I dont think its a real issue as you would need to get the base in excess of 600 degrees to even cause any real change in the brass.
It's not just reaching that the 600°F, but also how much time it's at 600°F. I assume you're talking about Fahrenheit??? 600°F is only ~ 316°C . . . which is not enough to do any level of annealing unless is for a very long time. Annealing (or the "flash annealing" that we do) the brass is best done at 650°C (1,200°F)
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And what about the cool down time that he was talking about?It's not just reaching that the 600°F, but also how much time it's at 600°F. I assume you're talking about Fahrenheit??? 600°F is only ~ 316°C . . . which is not enough to do any level of annealing unless is for a very long time. Annealing (or the "flash annealing" that we do) the brass is best done at 650°C (1,200°F)
When the brass drops out of the flame, it cools down VERY fast. It won't stay hot enough long enough to be an issue that affects the hardness, especially at the web area of a case. The rate of cooldown is an exponential curve where it's fastest from the higher temperatures and slower at the lower temperatures. This has something to do with Newton's Law of Cooling.
My brass prep is done in my non-airconditioned garage in the Phoenix AZ area where I've done annealing when it's 105°F in there. Even in that temperature, the brass cools down really fast from the peak temperature I get my brass to. Of course, it cools down even faster in the winter time with the ambient temperature in the 60's.
I'm talking about torch time. By backing the torches off (lowering energy applied over time) and increasing the time, roughly the same amount of energy is applied, but is done so over a longer period. This means that small variations in time have less of an impact on annealing consistency.
The bottom of the case always heats up. The key is to keep it below critical temps where you don't change its properties.
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