ar-10 6.5 creed vs 25 creed
- Thread starter PRSDietitian
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What do you want to do with it? Varmits or lighter game 25creed. Larger game 6.5 creed. If pure competition either.
I have some experience running a gas gun in PRS. I would stick with 6.5cm simply because it almost seems too easy to tune. We all know how finicky an ar10 can be to set up and run reliably, and while I've never shot or seen one in 25cm, I have and have had several in 6cm, and they can be really tricky to get them tuned where you'll trust it in a match format all day or all weekend long. The 6.5cm in my humble opinion is the easy button for ar10 cycling, even easier than the crusty .308. I don't really think the difference in those two cartridges will get you one more impact, so you're potentially inviting a more tricky gas system for no real gain. In addition, gas guns are rough on brass. I don't load ammo specifically for ar10's in prs matches because it's going to get trounced as often as not, and you can buy good bulk match ammo for 6.5cm cheaper than you can load it. Not an option for 25cm. Good luck either way.
Na, 25 creed has big bc advantage especially out in the midwest and west with big winds.
So i was doing the math on shooters calculator and the berger twist rate calculator
between the 25 creed 135 berger going 2800 in a 1:7.5 24" barrel vs a 144 berger going 2725in a 1:8 twist. both have a stability factor of 1.61.
25 creed has about 0.7 mil less drop at 1000 yards but only like .1 mils less on wind. so the difference isnt huge. i get ammo from Eagle Eye Ammo regardless because i don;t have as much time to reload as i used to
between the 25 creed 135 berger going 2800 in a 1:7.5 24" barrel vs a 144 berger going 2725in a 1:8 twist. both have a stability factor of 1.61.
25 creed has about 0.7 mil less drop at 1000 yards but only like .1 mils less on wind. so the difference isnt huge. i get ammo from Eagle Eye Ammo regardless because i don;t have as much time to reload as i used to
25 creed. I have shot some 6GT gas guns that shoot well but they can be a pain to setup right. The 25 should perform flawless in a large frame. You also get a huge BC boost with not much more recoil to offset.
My suggestion would be to either source a JP or Seekins upper if you do a build. There is considerable POI shift when you load the hand guard like on many positional stages. You want a mono or semi monolithic upper where the handguard does not attach directly to the barrel nut, inducing shift.
6 Arc is cool and i have a gun setup to shoot matches with it but they are just too light. Even loaded with weights you are going to want to go with a large frame AR. The two best opions are to either buy a SP10 and put a new barrel in it or buy a JP upper.
Don't bank on velocities. With a 24" barrel you are most likely going to get WAY less than you think, and with a gas gun, you need to run at lower pressure to keep everything safe and prevent premature wear.
There is a not a huge difference between both but if you are going to try and min/max the game, the 135 berger is it.
You need to not think of wind conventionally. You need to think, what is my wind budget to keep me on plate. Especially with switching head/tail winds.
Another option would be the 7mm Creed. I shot one out of a bolt gun a few weeks ago and got all giddy. He rarely needed to come off plate on alot of the stages we had to chose which side to hold off in changing winds. Massive advantage IMO. The BC of the 180-190 class 7mm bullets is nuts, and you dont have to get them going very fast to outperform.
Just thinking outloud here.
I definitely appreciate the insight! And one thing I like is you basically confirmed who I’m getting my stuff through anyway. So unfortunately I can’t get the SP 10 builder sets anymore because I’m getting my own barrel but I am getting a JP upper minus the barrel. Paul Ross is doing my barrel work so I have 100% confidence in my barrel. I just need to get him a blank. And right now it’s between a 7.5 twist 25 Cal barrel from CRB or 8 twist benchmark. I definitely trust both companies very much. At this point, it’s more nuance than anything else. The ammo is the same price from Eagle eye no matter what and the performance is going to be very close on both IPO. Luckily with Hornady having the 25 Creedmoor approved with SAAMI, You’re gonna see more factory ammo now and Hornady does sell 25 Creedmoor factory ammo so I can use that for the break-in. Unfortunately, I am definitely one of those Paralysis by analysis guys, so unfortunately, I overthink things a lot and in this game that’s not necessarily a good thing
Sounds like you are on a good track. I have been shooting CRB barrels for the last year and am super impressed but you cant really go wrong with any of the modern cut rifle barrels. I keep hearing good things about Paul Ross. One of the members here just had him do a .223 bartlien and it shoots around 1/2 moa. May have to order one.
Yeah, looks like he was the head smith at Compass Lake. Last I checked he was doing chamber, contour, thread, barrel extension job for 200 with an 8-10wk turn around if blank is shipped to him. He said he's ordering a 25 creed reamer since popularity has gone up. I gave him all the details around my build and use case to get his opinion since he's been in this game infinitely longer than me.
btw jake vibbert's company Rifle Barrel Blanks has great deals on barrels. Thats where I planned to order from.
Current build plan minus barrel
JP low profile side charge upper with 17.25" handguard and 15" arca rail
VMOS or LMOS BCG with HP bolt
SLR Sentry 9 or Wojtek .936 adjustable gas block
hawkins updraft brake
JP Lower with included small parts including jp ambi safety
Triggertech Diamond Single stage AR-10 trigger
H2 silent captured spring
MDT Premier Grip
Magpul PRS Gen 3
Plan to run a burris XTR Pro in an Audere 20 moa 34mm 1.5" mount, Accutac SR-5 Bipod. Will also swap between brake and a PTR Vent 1 when i get it in hand, going direct thread.
JP low profile side charge upper with 17.25" handguard and 15" arca rail
VMOS or LMOS BCG with HP bolt
SLR Sentry 9 or Wojtek .936 adjustable gas block
hawkins updraft brake
JP Lower with included small parts including jp ambi safety
Triggertech Diamond Single stage AR-10 trigger
H2 silent captured spring
MDT Premier Grip
Magpul PRS Gen 3
Plan to run a burris XTR Pro in an Audere 20 moa 34mm 1.5" mount, Accutac SR-5 Bipod. Will also swap between brake and a PTR Vent 1 when i get it in hand, going direct thread.
I would try a 25 Creed. Or x47. You know I just did a 6.5CM. I think it's pretty lame how people chamber a large frame AR in 6.5CM and then feed it Hornady brass and some lame 140gr BTHP with a .58 BC. If we're going to build an all out performance LFAR for PRS we should ensure it's competitive. And that 135gr Berger is pretty competitive. My only concern would be OAL limitations with a 25 Creed. A x47 might help with that.
I agree that you should expect about 100fps slower velocities than normal. It never pays to push gas guns in the red. Or orange. Stay in the green. Bet in the bullet, not the bolt gun velocity. So go for a bullet with a good BC.
Also, ensure you have a plan to make it weigh 25lbs
I agree that you should expect about 100fps slower velocities than normal. It never pays to push gas guns in the red. Or orange. Stay in the green. Bet in the bullet, not the bolt gun velocity. So go for a bullet with a good BC.
Also, ensure you have a plan to make it weigh 25lbs
the barrel alone will be at least 6 thankfully. probably closer to 7. 24", 1.20 at the barrel extension, slow taper to 1.1" and then .9365 at the gas block journal to have a slight interference fit and then the same OD to the muzzle. i also have some JP weight kits i plan to purchase
How long?
I just weighed these three barrels.
26" M24. Finishes up at .920 at the muzzle. 6lbs
25" Proof Comp contour. Finishes up at 1.0" at the muzzle. 7LBs
26" CRB Comp contour finishes up at 1.1" at the muzzle and 8LB.
8" 22RF barrel stub. Measures .940 on one side .920 on the other 22oz. So 2.7oz per inch
I'm thinking you'll be under 6.
Great idea. Load a round that already has a longer COAL than 6.5CM which is mag length limited as it. Fucking genius idea actually.
My bare SP-10 with as heavy a 24" 936 journal barrel as I could get weighed 12lb 14oz. That was without scope/ mount, brake, bipod. 7x35 ATACR in Hawkins Heavy Tactical weighs 3lbs 5 oz. CkyePod weighs 1.5lbs. 1.2" Hawkins Updraft weighs 6-7 oz ?
This weighs 20lbs 2oz. It's got 4 x XLR MLOK weights that weigh 6oz each. Sawtooth ARCA rail. Hawkins .900 Updraft. S&B PMII, Hawkins AR Heavy Tactical 34mm mount.
wait you may be right. doing a 24" and i was basing it off a BA 24" .936 GB barrel and for some reason i thought it said 96oz which is 6lbs an this will be thicker than that. so it may be closer to 6
Good point re: the bc of those 7mm pills. With that in mind Another interesting option to consider would be 7 SWC.
i have Larue mags which i think max at like 2.875". What kind of COALs are people talking for the SWC?
I don’t have personal experience with it but here’s the diagram (note its optimized for 180-195gr bullets). Not sure if eagle eye does wildcats or not though…
Looks like you can use a 308 mag without the binder plate.
I think the issue with the 7SWCs is going to be recoil. I just did a 25GT. I shot a 6 Dasher barrel suppressed against a braked 25GT barrel on the same rifle. In the same range session. Just swapped barrels.The recoil difference was significant. I'm fairly certain the difference in recoil is coming from bullet weight, not powder charge. 37.5gr H4350 135gr Hybrid vs 34gr H4350 105gr Hyb.
I just ended up buying 4.5lbs of AI weights to tame that 25GT. A 190gr with 38 to 40gr of powder? It's going to recoil like 308, or worse. And then whatever you have to do to get it to feed, if it'll fit in a AR mag.
I just ended up buying 4.5lbs of AI weights to tame that 25GT. A 190gr with 38 to 40gr of powder? It's going to recoil like 308, or worse. And then whatever you have to do to get it to feed, if it'll fit in a AR mag.
Ugh my bad. Good call out. Been a looong day for me. My brain went into bolt gun mode for some reason hahaAn AICS 308 mag, not a 308 gasser mag. Poor suggestion
fair fair! I feel that way after a long day. I emailed Paul and asked which he'd recommend. still waiting on a response. i think when all is said and done, mine will probably be similar weight to yours @JR1200W3
Gunsmiths often aren't shooters. They're good for recommendations on some things. But they can be slow to change and see new innovations until a customer brings it to them. And sometimes they're knowledge base is synthesized via customer reports which can be flawed. Ross's response on feeding 140 Hyb was telling to me. What do you think he's going to say about 135 HYB? I bet he's never chambered one, shot one, and you might be one of the very few so far to do a 25 cal on a precision gas gun. So his input might be limited in scope and depth.
This is very true. Given he was the head smith at Compass Lake Engineering and has made quite a few barrels for both of these cartridges, I feel it can still be of value to get an opinion. I will say given the 144 and 135 bergers in each will perform almost identically in many regards, it might be worth it to get the 25 simply for the decreased recoil
He has made quite a few 25 Creedmoor barrels for gas guns? I wouldn't have guessed. My bad assumption, I guess
He has had customers send reamers to do barrels for them. he said with an increase in the popularity he's getting one for himself. that being said, something like a 25gt or x47 or a 7 creed would prob require a customer provided reamer.
Yea just depends if you want to buy creed or x47 brass/dies. Either way its a very cool cartridge.
i havent reloaded in a long time. i mostly order from Eagle Eye now, so that narrows that down too!
$3/rd is INSANE.
You can buy norma match in 6 creed or 6.5 creed for not much more than a buck a round, and unless you are a high level shooter, probably won't be loosing any points to it. I shoot it a ton in matches I dont feel like reloading and its very consistent. You may slip a point here or there but its sure as shit not going to matter in the standings. You are going to trash the brass anyway in a semi auto, so might as well save some money.
If you're building a higher end LFAR for competition you should be building one that doesn't trash brass. Hence why the gassing is more important than a middle of the road compromise between sluggish when dirty on the brake and slightly over gassed burring up case heads when suppressed. I think if you spend $3K to $4K on a competition gun and it destroys brass, you're doing it wrong. But that req. uires reloading too most likely.
If you're reloading and getting 10 firings out of Alpha brass you're probably looking at $1.12 a round. $60 a box bullets, $400 a jug of H4350($0.29 a round), $10 a sleeve of primers. With the benefit of ensuring your load isn't over gassing the gun and being free of self-limiting practice and prep bc you only have just enough left in the lot for the match you're shooting that weekend.
This is what my gun does to the brass. 39.5gr H4350, 140 Hyb 20 thou off the lands. 2690fps at 100rds through the barrel.
If you're reloading and getting 10 firings out of Alpha brass you're probably looking at $1.12 a round. $60 a box bullets, $400 a jug of H4350($0.29 a round), $10 a sleeve of primers. With the benefit of ensuring your load isn't over gassing the gun and being free of self-limiting practice and prep bc you only have just enough left in the lot for the match you're shooting that weekend.
This is what my gun does to the brass. 39.5gr H4350, 140 Hyb 20 thou off the lands. 2690fps at 100rds through the barrel.
