Neck Lubing Process with Dry Neck Lube?

I used to use dry-lube, but have gotten much better results with NeoLube #2. I use a q-tip to lube the inside of the neck, "after" sizing/2nd-cleaning ... and "before" my mandrel expansion step. Then I leave the residual lube in place for my seating step, and that works great for me. I just didn't like getting graphite all over the outside of my case neck ... and with NeoLube like I use it, I get great seating force curves from my AMP Press.

Nothing wrong with your process, but I will add an answer you didn't ask about... just food for thought.

Since the graphite is potentially a weak coating method, the only way to "know" if it is making the seating force "better" is to measure it. That is still no guarantee the whole issue makes any difference to the overall performance, but at least you would know if you were getting anything back for the effort.

There is a lot of detail and work involved in the study of tribology and it is a topic full of variation and statistical dispersion. You have to be mentally prepared to stomach the issues. I am not telling you not to try, I am just encouraging you to be prepared to either measure or to be prepared to stomach the chaos of doing it blind.

Everything we do starting with buying the brass, how we clean, how we prep, etc., makes a potential improvement or can also ruin your performance.

Just adding a step like saying "I use graphite with ceramic media" doesn't mean your results are going to match amyone else's because you may be doing something that affects the coating up or downstream of that step.

Your vibe tumble media, any additives, the use of a pilot to neck turn/trim, your annealing, etc., are all going to have a potential to affect the graphite step. It isn't what folks like to hear, but I tend to let folks know and let them decide for themselves if they want to know more.

You could have a whole debate about the measurement methods and all those pros and cons of those techniques. However, unless you measure the seating force, there is no way to know if you are making any difference or making things worse or better with the graphite. Just food for thought. YMMV

RegionRat said:

Just adding a step like saying "I use graphite with ceramic media" doesn't mean your results are going to match amyone else's because you may be doing something that affects the coating up or downstream of that step.

Click to expand...

You may or may not know how true this statement is. For the longest time, I had heard that you can't use dry graphite on annealed cases because it won't stick. Yet, I had been doing so since I started annealing and found no issues. After I got my AMP Press, I decided to delve into why.

Long story short, what I settled on as to the reason was that I use an ultrasonic cleaner and do a light rinse afterward. When I tried a heavy rinse, the seating force variability shot way up - indicating that the graphite was not there (or much of it). My theory is that the soapy residue from the ultrasonic solution was enabling the graphite to "stick" better.

Different upstream and downstream steps in a process can certainly impact other steps.

kshea said:

Hey Everyone,

For those that use Imperial dry neck lube (the graphite with ceramic beads) when loading for precision, when are you applying it in your process? I've been dipping the neck in the dry neck lube before sizing the case (hopefully to reduce run/out friction from the expander ball). Then after I've trimmed, chamfer/deburred, and primed, I have been dipping the neck in the dry lube AGAIN before seating the bullet (I guess for a consistent seat?) .. Are y'all dry lubing before both of these steps? Or just once during the sizing and calling it good? Not sure whether I'm over lubing the neck, if that's even a thing?

I'll be switching to a separate expander die/mandrel soon, but the same question goes, would you dry lube before expanding the neck AND seating the bullet.

Curious your thoughts from all you experienced hand loaders. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Getting first an arbor press, and later an AMP Press has cost me countless hours and dollars testing... I won't say all things, but most of the important things associated with neck lube and items related to the seating step as a whole.

Here is a summary of what I found:

First and foremost, there is a distinct correlation between bullet seating force variability and muzzle velocity SDs. The impact may be small in some cases, but it is definitively there. It's only a guess, but I've probably shot 1000+ rounds of varying calibers trying different things in coming to this conclusion.

- Squeaky clean necks (inside) are, by far, the worst to seat in (unless you lube bullets)
- Using a mandrel is important
- With only a handful of exceptions, while certain lubes deliver superior results to others, though all forms of lubrication are relatively close.
- That said, if you're going lube, why not use the best. The only argument against this is either not cleaning your brass, brushing the necks and using the residual carbon as a lube, or tumbling in walnut, as that will provide some level of coating. I did find that neither delivered as good results as a lubricant.
- Of the dry lubes, moly gave me the best results, followed by graphite. They were very close - though see the post above about graphite.
- I tried HBN and it was not good - I'm not sure why
- I found that Neolube would give slightly more consistent results over dry lube, but always seemed to give a small number of "flyers" that sort of evened things out.
- I find that dipping cases in Neolube and wiping the outside is the fastest for me - though many others prefer "painting" the insides of the necks as it uses up less lubricant. I tried measuring painting vs dipping, and dipping yielded superior results, but it was also the first time I had tried painting, so I'm willing to believe that had an effect.
- I do lube both before using a mandrel and after and have tested using/not with multiple combinations both before and after. The double-lubed cases performed a little better. Was it enough to justify a separate step? Only each individual can answer that - time is more important to some than others and some people produce more ammo than others. It makes sense that doubling would perform a little better as the mandrel will scrape off some of whatever lube you use. This is exemplified by the buildup of lube on mandrels after use.

As to your question about over-lubing the neck, with dry lube I don't believe there's any such thing.

Skip it all. You can shoot under 5-7 sd without lube or a mandrel - more steps is just more opportunity to introduce variance.

I do all my cleaning, resizing, chamfer/debur/trim, prime and then i use moly dry lube on a qtip inside the neck, then run them in the expander mandrel, throw my powder in the case and then seat the bullet.

I only dry moly lube the mandrel every so often if the "feel" becomes more running cases through the mandrel die.

I body size, then dip into imperial with the balls, then mandrel, then trim chamfer and deburr. Before seating, I will dip them again. This is the process that I’ve found works best for me to get best accuracy and lowest SD’s. This process eliminates flyers from optimized loads.

-ZA

Also…. You need to lube the necks prior to using a mandrel. If you don’t the brass will gall onto the mandrel over time and build up. The expanding force goes up and seating force is inconsistent. I tried this and then had to eventually let my mandrel soak in a de-coppering agent for a few days because it had become rough on the outside. Once I did this, the decoppering agent was purple and the mandrel was back to being super slick.

-ZA

What decoppering agent did you use?

I have had good results using two lube materials, with similar application methods. Moly powder suspended in GunScrubber2 or lanolin dissolved in xylene and applied to the inside of the necks with a q-tip. Cases are held upside down, placed in a loading tray and placed in a warm (not hot) oven. The carrier liquid quickly evaporates off leaving a thin uniform layer of lube. To clean off residue from prior firing I run a rotating bronze brush through the necks after ultrasonic cleaning and SS pin tumbling with ultrasonic solution and before coating, which is the last step prior to powder loading and bullet seating.

I have to wonder about all the testing of bullet seating curves . . . Has anyone drilled out the base of a few cases, made a jig simulating the end/shoulder area of a cartridge to hold the case upside down and tried to obtain pressure curve of bullet RELEASE from cases? I would make a jig (and drill out cases if required) if someone with the measuring equipment is interested in doing this and sharing data.

Used Wipeout/Patchout to clean the mandrel

There seems to be a handful of variables that would need to be absolutely controlled to draw any meaningful conclusion on which process works best. Neck wall thickness, annealing consistency, die and mandrel dimensions, lot to lot variation, etc. Short of having an arbor press and seating pressure indication, I am using a very simple Forster stepped neck ID gauge and getting a feel for net neck tension, and don’t get overly concerned about removing or rebooting remaining Redding dry neck lube on/off cases. SD’s in single digits in a handful of 6.5 GR/CM semiautos.