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Night Vision Looking to purchase first thermal clip on

T

TheVolunteers

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2017
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#1
I'm looking into purchasing my first thermal clip on, and have been trying to read up on my options. My use case is a 16" AR with 1-10x March shorty scope, and American made is a must (I refuse to pay for optics made by our Chinese comrades). I'm trying to stay in the $3-4k budget, which I know tends to limit my options (I may up the limit a little with some convincing).

I've read a decent amount about the UTM and UTM-X, and been confused about the conflicting information about them being collimated vs not collimated. Also I've seen that the UTM-X (not sure about the original UTM?) has a full power IR laser that could be compatible with a pressure switch, is this a viable alternative to running a PEQ-15 or other laser on the rifle? Can the UTM-X (and possibly the older UTM) be repeatable enough with the right mount while also removable or swing away?

The other options I've seen are the older CNVD-T (320 core and way outdated but cool nonetheless) and the LWTS. Are there any other optics I should be looking at?

Appreciate the help!
 
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#2
Take a look at the AGM Rattler-C V2 50-640 Thermal Imaging Clip-On System
  • Quick conversion of daytime optics into thermal imaging scope
  • 12μm high-sensitivity thermal detector, NETD < 20mK
  • Fast 50Hz imaging
  • High resolution OLED display
  • Adjustable color palettes
  • On-board video/audio recording and image capture
  • Built-in EMMC storage (16 GB)
  • Shot Activated Recording (SAR)
  • Wi-Fi data transmission
  • Stadiametric rangefinder
  • Standby mode
  • 9 - 11 hours battery life (depending on model)
  • External power supply compatibility
  • Waterproof & shockproof
Package Includes
  • Mount
  • Two Rechargeable Battery
  • Charger
  • USB Cable
  • Lens Cloth
  • Manual
  • Carrying Case
 
#4
In your budget you will likely handicap yourself trying to avoid Chinesium. While I share your appreciation and diligence to avoid supporting them, you’re likely typing all this from a machine with some sort of parts from Chyna.
Yes, I’m being “that guy”. This conundrum comes up here all the time.
Ultimately do what you want but you’ll need to cough up more clams for “equivalent or better” US made units. There’s folks a lot more versed than me on here with thermals so maybe I’m mistaken.
 
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#6
gr8fuldoug said:
Take a look at the AGM Rattler-C V2 50-640 Thermal Imaging Clip-On System
  • Quick conversion of daytime optics into thermal imaging scope
  • 12μm high-sensitivity thermal detector, NETD < 20mK
  • Fast 50Hz imaging
  • High resolution OLED display
  • Adjustable color palettes
  • On-board video/audio recording and image capture
  • Built-in EMMC storage (16 GB)
  • Shot Activated Recording (SAR)
  • Wi-Fi data transmission
  • Stadiametric rangefinder
  • Standby mode
  • 9 - 11 hours battery life (depending on model)
  • External power supply compatibility
  • Waterproof & shockproof
Package Includes
  • Mount
  • Two Rechargeable Battery
  • Charger
  • USB Cable
  • Lens Cloth
  • Manual
  • Carrying Case
Click to expand...

The AGM clip on has priven quite good for us. Yeah chinese core.....equal to better clarity than my trigicon stuff at a much lower price point. Real no brainer IMO. I believe in USA stuff, however when I can get durable similiar spec stuff at 2.5 to 1 it's not a dilemma.
 
#7
If you are considering a used unit and are ok with an older unit that has a 320 core perhaps a used FLIR T-50 Clip On.
Shame FLIR got out of the civilian market and did not upgrade them to a 640 core.

My UTM was not collimated. Some have reported being able to do so.
If I recall correctly, it was reported that UTMX's made after some point in late 2014 had the new rear eyepiece which allowed them to be collimated.
 
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#8
Thanks for the replies. To clarify I know that I'm looking at used units in my budget if I wanted to stick with US made. I also know being consistent on my Chinese stance is nearly impossible, but I still try where I can.

Looks like UTMs can be had pretty easily within budget, as well as the older CNVD-T. If I up to $5-6k the LWTS is in range, as is the UTM-X. Are these options that bad if I'm ok with not having the latest and greatest?
 
#9
Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.

Nvision thermal clipon (1).png
 
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#10
They're not great, that's for sure - there's a reason why you see so many UTMs for sale on the second hand market. And there's definitely a less desirable version of the UTM-X (320x @ 30Hz vs 640x @ 60Hz). Personally, I think it all really boils down to what you want to use it for? You're way better off using it for hunting vs banging steel. And if you want it mostly for some paranoid vision of a future America, then you may be disappointed when you take it out to practice on paper and steel, but think "well, I have it just in case and it didn't cost too much."
 
#13
Bkultra said:
It's coming, dance off! With moves this hot you're going to want to see it through the thermal!
Click to expand...
You just unlocked a GenX memory: watching "Grease" on VHS, friend's kid brother asks "Is that really what high school is like?" "Oh course! Why do you think we practice our dance moves all summer?"
 
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#14
Dogtown said:
They're not great, that's for sure - there's a reason why you see so many UTMs for sale on the second hand market. And there's definitely a less desirable version of the UTM-X (320x @ 30Hz vs 640x @ 60Hz). Personally, I think it all really boils down to what you want to use it for? You're way better off using it for hunting vs banging steel. And if you want it mostly for some paranoid vision of a future America, then you may be disappointed when you take it out to practice on paper and steel, but think "well, I have it just in case and it didn't cost too much."
Click to expand...

Guess I'm a little confused because I've read quite a few threads about the LWTS and UTM/UTM-X on here from 3-5 years ago and they received great reviews, and even people said the old CVND-Ts still held up ok despite the aged technology. I know thermal technology moves really quickly, but are these sights really trash in comparison now? Not trying to be combative, this is a genuine question as I don't have a great frame of reference. I'm Army using old PAS-13CV1s, so I guess my standards are pretty low haha.

In reference to your use case question, I am trying to build out my AR to be a pretty good do everything rifle, with the option to hunt while also having a good night optic for passive aiming. I'm not looking to go all red dawn here, but night shooting is a hobby I'm looking to get more into and I do appreciate a well made US made optic with military pedigree, even if it is a little old/outdated. At the end of the day I'm looking for something that is durable and repeatable, and can hopefully be removed easily/pivoted to the side when not needed.
 
#15
Bkultra said:
Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.

View attachment 8738285
Click to expand...
A budget of $3-4k and he might up it a little to $5-6k. N-Visions CO would be approximately 80% more than his max with tax. No other American made company is going to come near it.
 
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#16
Cannot speak to the LWTS or the UTMX but my UTM made a great handheld scanner and that was it. Dig in the archives for what others have said about actual ownership of the UTM and UTMX.

As I recall the general consensus was that the Wilcox FTS mount which is very expensive did not give repeatable results with the UTM. The FTS mount was the reason I originally purchased mine and it turned out to be a waste but I guess that was the UTM's fault. I know another user on another board said his FTS mount was repeatable. Another user had a fixed mount made for his UTM. Again, dig into the archives and not the claims in for sale ads.
 
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#17
Yeah, Wilcox FTS is not a great solution if repeatability is a concern. The Unity CTM is superior in that it's repeatable and force-to-overcome.

@TheVolunteers I feel the same way about focusing on USA-made with military pedigree, but it's really hard to do with a $3-4k budget. Maybe there's some confusion between the UTM-X and the UTC-X? Because the latter are still a really good high end thermal and in reasonable demand, but are way outside your budget. Also keep in mind that these used Oasys products have no warranty, so in the odd chance you have issues they become an expensive brick.
 
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#18
All good feedback, since I'm mostly interested in clip on functionality I'll probably drop the UTM/UTM-X from the list. I think that just leaves the LWTS or the CNVD-T unless I'm missing something. Both have a lot of military pedigree, just aging technology. I haven't seen too many LWTS for sale, which is maybe saying something as far as how they've held up optics-wise over the years?
 
#19
for your price range and use maybe a bering optics super yoter c. best use is as a clip on but it can also be used as a handheld scanner or mounted on a tripod as a spotter. up to 10x optical mag should be no problem for it and they work very good in high humidity

some foreign parts and Chinese core but built and serviced in the usa

sig also has it's clip on in your price range and similar to bering optics , foreign parts built and serviced in the usa. 10x optical mag might be pushing it on the sig with it's 25mm lens though
 
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#20
Bkultra said:
Wait until/if this is released (rumored to be shortly). It's only supposed to be around the 10K mark. If any of this turns out to be true, it might shift the market a little bit.
Click to expand...
View attachment 8738285
Fuck that Toyota Corolla. Just go buy a Porsche GT3 RS.

I'm sure that will be a nice unit but that is way outside of the OP's budget.

OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.
 
#21
Magsz18 said:
View attachment 8738285
Fuck that Toyota Corolla. Just go buy a Porsche GT3 RS.

I'm sure that will be a nice unit but that is way outside of the OP's budget.

OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.
Click to expand...
Hence why I was said it would shift the market. Coming out with a unit with those specs at 10K is going to drop the prices of every other unit. People will be dumping their old units to jump on this one, etc. But what a great point you made
 
#22
Magsz18 said:
OP, are you dead set on a clip on? Your options expand significantly if you are willing to go to a dedicated weapon sight.
Click to expand...

Not dead set, I just have an audere mount on my March that is not quick release so I don't have an easy/repeatable way to switch back and forth. I suppose I could get a very minimal height quick release riser to put the mount on... maybe worth investigating.
 
#23
Bkultra said:
Hence why I was said it would shift the market. Coming out with a unit with those specs at 10K is going to drop the prices of every other unit. People will be dumping their old units to jump on this one, etc. But what a great point you made
Click to expand...
I don't see this dropping pricing, at all.

There is a giant disparity in price between the Chinese offerings and the American made offerings. Not a single Chinese produced optic is going to drop in price because of this. Price competition in the imported market comes from the imported market. I don't think Pixels On Target is going to be threatened by this whatsoever as they've got their claws firmly planted in their military contracts. What other American makers am I missing?

I'm excited for the Nvision product as I like what they produce. I think this is going to be a super cool unit but I absolutely do not think that this is going to somehow make optics more affordable.
 
#25
UTC Xii... But I have that rare cool factor (no warranty) and still one of the best form factors. Vooddoo M and UTC X/Xii. Post cost well over 10K for long range capabilities and do not boast those specs. So yes, I think it'll change the pricing of the market. No it's not going to tank everything but it might give him more options if he waits.
 
#26
Bkultra said:
UTC Xii... But I have that rare cool factor (no warranty) and still one of the best form factors. Vooddoo M and UTC X/Xii. Post cost over 10K for long range capabilities and do not boast those specs. So yes, I think it'll change the pricing of the market. No it's not going to tank everything but it might give him more options if he waits.
Click to expand...
We will see what happens.

This doesn't change the fact that 10k is still way beyond his budget.
 
#32
OP I have a UTM and it is pretty good but I'm sure stuff like the Guide units would be well worth the money and maybe more worth it considering all the features. Speaking for myself my UTM is collimated and I've shot steel out to 300 yards clipping it on and off with no zero shift, it sits in front of a Trijicon Credo 1-10 and it works at 10x but 5-6x is where the picture kinda fizzles out. It is a 640 core with a 30hz refresh rate which kinda sucks for looking around as a monocular but isn't bad when panning around in front of a day optic. I've also accidentally dropped it really hard onto concrete 3 different times from knocking my rifle over and it's still trucking. All that said I plan on picking up a Guide TB630 at some point because they look phenomenal for the money.
 
#36
CTM1 said:
I guess we will have to take your word for it as that vid did nothing to show the POA/POI. ;)
Click to expand...
Sorry I don't have a Triggercam yet unfortunately lol. But I was holding 1 mil at 300 and didn't change that between having the thermal on or off. That was my first time shooting it at that distance so I thought I'd just record it. First photo was me testing POI shift at 100 yards, second photo was the target I was shooting at on that day of the video.
 

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#40
TheVolunteers said:
Do you get repeatable results with the wilcox mount?
Click to expand...
I get repeatable results when clipping it in and out of the mount like I do in the video. As far as flipping it to the side and back I have only tried it one time and it was when I took that picture I posted previously of the POI shift at 100 yards. I shot the group without thermal first and then flipped it over. I don't mind the wilcox mount but I'd certainly prefer an ADM mount attached to the Thermal.
 
#41
Every one I've used, if I look through the optic and apply a bit of torque to the device, the alignment shifts and never returns to zero. Be it Skeet IRx, Voodoo-S, or Voodoo-M. The CTM mount solved the problem for me with the Voodoo-S and the non-FTS QD mount from PoT solved the issue with the Voodoo-M.
 
#43
It’s obvious that many of the respondents here have never owned the devices in question.

LWTS - yes, it’s still very capable. Collimation is usually very good. Image isn’t as good as the UTM-X. Expect to pay 4500

UTM - most are not collimated (do not consider this an option)

UTM-X - there are several iterations. Some iterations have better collimation than others. If you find one you’re considering, pm me and I’ll let you know what version you’re looking at. Many of these are EXCELLENT still today. Expect to pay 4500-5500 for a fully collimated one.

CNVD-T - in 2025 I’d avoid 320 units but they can do the job in a pinch.

Those dogging on the Wilcox flip to side mounts for supposedly not returning to zero have no clue what they’re talking about. The WHOLE POINT of a collimated clip on is that the clip on isn’t affected by slight misalignment 🤦‍♂️. I’ve used that mount under every condition you will encounter, and intentionally induced misalignment… it doesn’t affect anything at all if you’re using a collimated thermal as a clip on. I shoot tiny little groups with mine, which wouldn’t be possible if there was any truth to this.

If you’re using the thermal with its own reticle or you’re using a “zero the screen” type imitation clip on, you may have a problem, but this is a discussion about clip ons in clip on configuration.

Now, there are about 4 guys on the Hide with the budget for the range finding version of the Voodoo-M. There may be moments where the Wilcox mount could affect their disturbed reticle placement… so if you’re one of those 4, you can discuss the Wilcox mount. If you’re not, and you think it affects your point of impact, you don’t understand what collimation means, and haven’t tested what you’re saying with a precision rifle. Regardless, the OP is considering clip ons that wouldn’t be affected by this.

I have actually owned each of the devices we’re discussing here and used/tested them thoroughly.

The Wilcox mount is absolutely fantastic.

The UTM-X (if you choose the right generation) is the best bang for the buck and is absolutely still among the better performers. Its image is nearly identical to the $16,000 current issue Voodoo-S.

Voodoo-S - way above your current price point. Basically a UTM-X but much smaller and lighter.
 
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#44
TheVolunteers said:
I'm looking into purchasing my first thermal clip on, and have been trying to read up on my options. My use case is a 16" AR with 1-10x March shorty scope, and American made is a must (I refuse to pay for optics made by our Chinese comrades). I'm trying to stay in the $3-4k budget, which I know tends to limit my options (I may up the limit a little with some convincing).

I've read a decent amount about the UTM and UTM-X, and been confused about the conflicting information about them being collimated vs not collimated. Also I've seen that the UTM-X (not sure about the original UTM?) has a full power IR laser that could be compatible with a pressure switch, is this a viable alternative to running a PEQ-15 or other laser on the rifle? Can the UTM-X (and possibly the older UTM) be repeatable enough with the right mount while also removable or swing away?

The other options I've seen are the older CNVD-T (320 core and way outdated but cool nonetheless) and the LWTS. Are there any other optics I should be looking at?

Appreciate the help!
Click to expand...
If you haven't purchased one yet, the specs here speak for themselves on this closeout deal, and its German made 😊https://www.eurooptic.com/liemke-lu...-lo-luchs1?utm_source=eoic2018&utm_medium=CSA
 
#45
Evolution 9 said:
Now, there are about 4 guys on the Hide with the budget for the range finding version of the Voodoo-M. There may be moments where the Wilcox mount could affect their disturbed reticle placement… so if you’re one of those 4, you can discuss the Wilcox mount. If you’re not, and you think it affects your point of impact, you don’t understand what collimation means, and haven’t tested what you’re saying with a precision rifle. Regardless, the OP is considering clip ons that wouldn’t be affected by this.
Click to expand...

Yeah, in all fairness, I don't think I ever actually did comprehensive POA/POI impact shift testing with these. With both the Skeet and the Voodoo-S, I noticed that with the e-reticle enabled, I would see a shift of the display when grabbing the device and giving it some torque. I just thought "well that sucks" and used it for the time being until I switched to the CTM. In hindsight, I get your point and realize that I should have done some actual accuracy/consistency testing, but even though I saw the issue, I was still hitting steel without major issues. It just felt weird flipping to side and back, and the e-reticle never returning to alignment with the optic reticle.

Mmm...that's some tasty crow I'm dining on now....
 
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#46
Dogtown said:
Yeah, in all fairness, I don't think I ever actually did comprehensive POA/POI impact shift testing with these. With both the Skeet and the Voodoo-S, I noticed that with the e-reticle enabled, I would see a shift of the display when grabbing the device and giving it some torque. I just thought "well that sucks" and used it for the time being until I switched to the CTM. In hindsight, I get your point and realize that I should have done some actual accuracy/consistency testing, but even though I saw the issue, I was still heating steel without major issues. It just felt weird flipping to side and back, and the e-reticle never returning to alignment with the optic reticle.

Mmm...that's some tasty crow I'm dining on now....
Click to expand...
lol, no, I’ve seen the same thing and had concerns. If you’re using the internal reticle it’s definitely a concern, and while I don’t know anyone who uses the lasers for aiming, it would be a concern for that too. So depending on your intended use, a different mount could be warranted.
 
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#48
That sounds good but doesn’t fit the results down range.

When a military style (real) clip on has collimation that’s not quite perfect, it’s consistently off in the same direction and amount. It will always shoot 3” left and 1” low, regardless of which gun it’s on, assuming proper day scope height on each gun.

We all know that the hand guard of each gun isn’t that consistent. Each hand guard is pointed in a different direction relative to the zero of its rifle. Add in hand guard flex from bipod loading and we’re several more inches off.

And yet the military clip on mounted to these varying handguards keeps proving the same consistent results (perfect for good ones, or consistently 3” left and 1” low as in the example above).

So pointing slightly differently doesn’t change anything for a real clip on…

And the clip on doesn’t know if it’s being pointed slightly differently because of the hand guard or because of the mount. Thus, there’s no way for the mount to cause a problem, and if there was, why is there such a concern over the mount and not the hand guard that it’s all mounted to?
 
#49
The rear lens assembly of a well-designed clip-on will have some maximum amount of angular deviation for which it will have the consistent POI shift that you describe. That is the angular tolerance for that clip on. When you add a wonky handguard it may exceed that tolerance if it’s bad enough, or get close to it such that a wonky mount can take it beyond that tolerance. It’s a little silly to say “why worry about the mount and not the handguard?” One is a lot easier to change than the other, but the frank answer is you do have to worry about both because they both can be sources of angular deviation. Thankfully most handguards will be within tolerance, as will most mounts, but if you get a 95th percentile rail and a 97th percentile mount you might have issues. There’s a reason the manuals for every military clip-on I own say “mount it as close to straight and optical centerline as possible” and not “eh, fuck it, if you can see through it the results will always be perfect.”
 
#50
In a theoretical world, I agree that you could get a mount and hand guard that, together, push things over the limit, but that’s theoretical, and it would be unreasonable to point the finger at Wilcox in such a situation, while failing to point the finger at the abortion on an off-brand hand guard that made such misalignment possible.

The amount of inconsistency in a Wilcox flip mount is nowhere near enough to warrant any of the concerns that are being talked about. If it were, robust hand guard scrutiny would be equally important in every such discussion, and that doesn’t happen.

Can you check those military manuals? I’m on vacation and unable to check, but my recollection is that they reference optical centerline (we’re all in agreement there), but don’t mention “straight” as you say. Can you check for us?
***edit*** the LWTS and Skeetir-X manuals are available online and mention no such thing. https://www.x20.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LWTS-user-guide.pdf

https://device.report/m/fe893f428cb9e70fbd1dc303f6260d84cb6c87f0a365dea2928d68e12378b8c1.pdf

Regardless, the frequent discussion about the Wilcox mounts makes people who haven’t owned/used them think that there’s something drastically wrong, and that they’re going to be plagued by troubles (that for some reason haven’t affected the SEALs, Delta operators, etc.). This is incorrect, silly, and should stop.

I’ve owned more real clip-ons than I can recall and over a dozen Wilcox flip mounts, shared across dozens of rifles. I’m also FAR more picky than most end users/customers regarding the precision of the system. If a problem existed, I’m the guy who would have encountered it, and I’m also the guy who would have noticed it. I have yet to encounter anything resembling a problem related to alignment consistency.

Someone considering buying one thermal with one Wilcox mount doesn’t need to be scared off by theoretical worst case boogeyman problems that none of us thermal veterans have experienced.
 
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