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Good video showing effectiveness of a tuner

Dthomas3523 said:
Let’s say you have a load that shoots very well at 100 with low ES. When you take it to 800, it “falls apart.”

A tuner absolutely will not help with this. As the issue is either the shooter or the bullet. If it’s the bullet, it’s because the BC variance from bullet to bullet is too large. This usually means bullet sorting or tipping is needed. The other possibility is a stability issue, but as long as you’re running an appropriate twist and speed, that shouldn’t be the problem.

You already have the powder charge figured out (es/sd) and the seating depth/group size done (shooting well at 100). Just like groups can’t miraculously get smaller, they can’t miraculously get bigger.......unless there is a viable explanation.

None of which a tuner will fix.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr Thomas for taking the time to write this up, made me think, and reconsider what i am going to do here.

Let me try to repeat back, and please tell me if i got this wrong:

Assume it is a new rifle in a popular caliber like 6.5 CM, so we know what 2 or 3 powders shoot well in that caliber, that are fairly well temperature stabilized, and what projectiles gave good results for others (good enough BC, very good BC consistency). Assume it is a well built rifle (bedding, quality of the barrel, crown, chamber job, scope is properly mounted). Assume premium brass that is “fully prepped”(means different things to different people, but let’s ignore that for now).

Proposed load development steps:

1) Pick the most promising powder and bullet. Set the tuner at zero. Pick a seating dept like a 20 thou jump that is known to work for this particular bullet. [A jammed bullet will require a new load development experiment, as the powder charge will have to be much lower.] Start with a clean barrel and fire 10 - 15 fouling rounds (use cheap commercial ammo), wait for SD to stabilize to +- 15 fps or better for the last 5 shots.

2) Run a quick pressure test to see where the chosen combo of brass, bullet and powder maxes out. Maybe 5 rounds total. Assume max safe pressure is reached 0.5 grains lower than the point where a full ejector mark shows up, to allow for ambient changes.

3) Run a ladder test in increments of 0.3 grain (?) for the top 2 grains of powder range before pressure maxes out, firing 3 shots at each powder charge, and record and plot SD. [Combine data from item 2 to reduce total rounds fired.] Find the powder charge where SD is minimized. If the picture is not clear, fire more rounds in the area that looks promising. Hopefully one or two adjacent groups produced an SD below 5 fps.

4) Load 50 rounds (?) at the powder charge that gave the best SD. Test at a range where you can still see your bullet holes in a Shoot’n’See target. Probably 300 yards, or 400 if done in winter with no mirage. Or invest in a target cam or an electronic target and test at long range, say 800. Fire two rounds, if the 2 shot “group” is worse than 0.5 MOA, adjust the tuner two hash marks, and try again. If below 0.5 MOA, fire a 5 shot group. Find 2-3 adjacent groups where POI did not move much (less than 0.1 MOA?) and group size was acceptable (better than 0.4) but there is still room for improvement.]

5) Now move the tuner in smaller increments, like one or half a hash mark, shoot 5 round groups and find the best compromise from the pespective of lowest POI movement compared to adjacent groups (positive compensation is working for you at your chosen distance) and minimal group size (hopefully below 0.35 MOA).

6) Now optimize seating depth as well, in increments of 5 thou, adjusting powder charge slightly to keep speed the same? Probably optional if you managed to get by so far with a longer jump? Aim for 0.3 MOA and stop as soon as that is achieved to save on components and barrel life. [Repeat at different ranges and see if half or one additional/less hash mark will compensate for the difference in distance??]

7) Know the powder sensitivity to ambient temperature (fps per degree F), and and adjust your load a small amount as the seasons change to keep speed the same.

8) Slowly adjust seating depth maybe every 100 rounds as your lands move forward, so “chase the lands”?

BTW: I have the equipment to reload at the bench (Wilson dies, arbor press, battery operated scale) so i can interactively adjust seating dept, powder charge and neck tension. [But there are too many variables!]

Looks to me like this could consume 150 plus rounds.... Any shortcuts that folks have used with success? I am wondering about the potential benefit of “Design of Experiments” here to minimize rounds fired..
 
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fng23 said:
This makes sense.....I honestly didn't know the correlations with powder charge (ES/SD) and seating depth (group size). In the past I think I have just stumbled upon great combinations of both. Of course, I don't have a bazillion dollars in top shelf reloading equipment and I am not chasing "0" size groups either.

Good information......thank you.

Ern
Click to expand...

In the past, chrono’s weren’t as reliable as the ones we have now. So you were kinda forced into doing it all at one time and finding a recipe of powder charge and seating depth (or just powder since many were just loading to the book length).

With modern chrono’s we can now isolate the powder/ignition portion and the harmonics portion and be more efficient and precise with our load development.
 
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NamibHunter said:
Thank you Mr Thomas for taking the time to write this up, made me think, and reconsider what i am going to do here.

Let me try to repeat back, and please tell me if i got this wrong:

Assume it is a new rifle in a popular caliber like 6.5 CM, so we know what 2 or 3 powders shoot well in that caliber, that are fairly well temperature stabilized, and what projectiles gave good results for others (good enough BC, very good BC consistency). Assume it is a well built rifle (bedding, quality of the barrel, crown, chamber job, scope is properly mounted). Assume premium brass that is “fully prepped”(means different things to different people, but let’s ignore that for now).

Proposed load development steps:

1) Pick the most promising powder and bullet. Set the tuner at zero. Pick a seating dept like a 20 thou jump that is known to work for this particular bullet. [A jammed bullet will require a new load development experiment, as the powder charge will have to be much lower.] Start with a clean barrel and fire 10 - 15 fouling rounds (use cheap commercial ammo), wait for SD to stabilize to +- 15 fps or better for the last 5 shots.

2) Run a quick pressure test to see where the chosen combo of brass, bullet and powder maxes out. Maybe 5 rounds total. Assume max safe pressure is reached 0.5 grains lower than the point where a full ejector mark shows up, to allow for ambient changes.

3) Run a ladder test in increments of 0.3 grain (?) for the top 2 grains of powder range before pressure maxes out, firing 3 shots at each powder charge, and record and plot SD. [Combine data from item 2 to reduce total rounds fired.] Find the powder charge where SD is minimized. If the picture is not clear, fire more rounds in the area that looks promising. Hopefully one or two adjacent groups produced an SD below 5 fps.

4) Load 50 rounds (?) at the powder charge that gave the best SD. Test at a range where you can still see your bullet holes in a Shoot’n’See target. Probably 300 yards, or 400 if done in winter with no mirage. Or invest in a target cam or an electronic target and test at long range, say 800. Fire two rounds, if the 2 shot “group” is worse than 0.5 MOA, adjust the tuner two hash marks, and try again. If below 0.5 MOA, fire a 5 shot group. Find 2-3 adjacent groups where POI did not move much (less than 0.1 MOA?) and group size was acceptable (better than 0.4) but there is still room for improvement.]

5) Now move the tuner in smaller increments, like one or half a hash mark, shoot 5 round groups and find the best compromise from the pespective of lowest POI movement compared to adjacent groups (positive compensation is working for you at your chosen distance) and minimal group size (hopefully below 0.35 MOA).

6) Now optimize seating depth as well, in increments of 5 thou, adjusting powder charge slightly to keep speed the same? Probably optional if you managed to get by so far with a longer jump? Aim for 0.3 MOA and stop as soon as that is achieved to save on components and barrel life. [Repeat at different ranges and see if half or one additional/less hash mark will compensate for the difference in distance??]

7) Know the powder sensitivity to ambient temperature (fps per degree F), and and adjust your load a small amount as the seasons change to keep speed the same.

8) Slowly adjust seating depth maybe every 100 rounds as your lands move forward, so “chase the lands”?

Looks to me like this could consume 150 plus rounds.... Any shortcuts that folks have used with success?
Click to expand...

Here’s what I would do (with a barrel that has sped up. So 100-200 rnds on barrel). I’m also assuming you have a primer you want to use, so I’m not including a primer test.

Decide what speed you want to run. Then look up known data and powders for this speed. With so much information online, it’s easy to say “I went to run 2950 with a 109 in my 6x47.” We find that 35.0 varget gets us in the ball park.

So, I’d start at 34.0 and load in increments of .2 grains up to 36.0. Three or five shot strings. Whatever your load process makes you comfortable with. If you are very particular in your brass prep and loading, you can easily get the info you want with 3 or 5 shot strings.

Shoot them all over a chrono, don’t worry with group size. You’re looking for something like this:

678EAD8D-CDE9-4541-9075-6E5391AACE17.jpeg


Notice the 35.0 and 35.2 have a close velocity, and a low ES?

You can load 35.1 most anytime. Or you can use 35.0 in summer and 35.2 in winter.

Now, let’s say we went with 35.1.

You have two options here since it’s a prs rifle and using a tuner:

1: load .020 off and adjust tuner to the proper settings using three shot groups like Paul did in the video (if first two shots don’t touch, don’t waste a third).

2: Start .005 off lands and shoot groups moving .003 back off each time (again, don’t waste third shot if first two don’t touch). Find your seating depth node and load on the long side. Then use that seating depth and fine tune it with the tuner as normal.

Thats it. Done. That’s your load. 35.1 with either .020 and tuned, or your seating depth and tuned. Should take less than 100rnds to do. (55 for five shot strings over two grains in .2 increments). And easily less than 50 to tune the rifle.

This is all done at 100yds. You can stretch it out to 600 or 1k after. But at this point, you’re either barely fine tuning the tuner because you can see small differences easier with larger groups at distance. Or you’re looking for BC problems with your Bullets. This won’t take many shots. As if the group falls apart, it’s either the shooter or the bullet.

Now, after this, I don’t measure lands again. Every 300 rnds or so, I’ll load my current length, .003, .006, and .009 longer. Three shot groups. Shoot them at 100 and you’ll see the group size/s that are best. That’s your load for the next 300. Barrels don’t all erode the same. Sometimes it will be the same length for 900 rounds and then you change every 300 after. Sometimes you’re changing every 300. No need to measure and chase lands that may or may not be at the optimal harmonics.

So, you have load development in 50-100 rnds. Then you have 12 shots every 300 (or whatever round count you want to do) to maintain your accuracy for the life of the barrel.
 
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Unless you know you’re going to be running near the high end of pressure, I don’t worry with finding the pressure cap. Or I do it while speeding the barrel up to just get an idea of where the cap is.

My philosophy, if you are wanting to run speeds near your high pressure area for a cartridge, then move up to a more appropriate cartridge.

I don’t do any ladder tests or backing off of percentages of max pressure. No real need for that. Most of that stuff was developed when we didn’t have magnetospeed/Labradar and we didn’t have google with thousands of Shooter’s data.

Unless it’s a totally new wildcat, there’s no real debate where high pressure is for any common cartridge. The data is already out there.

No need for me to see that my barrel has a .5 grain difference in max pressure from the average max when I don’t plan on running near max anyway.
 
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Dthomas3523 said:
In the past, chrono’s weren’t as reliable as the ones we have now. So you were kinda forced into doing it all at one time and finding a recipe of powder charge and seating depth (or just powder since many were just loading to the book length).

With modern chrono’s we can now isolate the powder/ignition portion and the harmonics portion and be more efficient and precise with our load development.
Click to expand...
The magnetospeed and Labradar were game changers.
 
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Dthomas3523 said:
Unless you know you’re going to be running near the high end of pressure, I don’t worry with finding the pressure cap. Or I do it while speeding the barrel up to just get an idea of where the cap is.

My philosophy, if you are wanting to run speeds near your high pressure area for a cartridge, then move up to a more appropriate cartridge.

I don’t do any ladder tests or backing off of percentages of max pressure. No real need for that. Most of that stuff was developed when we didn’t have magnetospeed/Labradar and we didn’t have google with thousands of Shooter’s data.

Unless it’s a totally new wildcat, there’s no real debate where high pressure is for any common cartridge. The data is already out there.

No need for me to see that my barrel has a .5 grain difference in max pressure from the average max when I don’t plan on running near max anyway.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir, it was very kind of you to write this up in such great detail. Makes sense.

I do use a Labradar. I have also found that most of the time, the flat spots in the speed graph line up with lower SD/ES values.
 
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Had 15 or so rounds left over from the random 142 grain ammo used for testing the tuner. All loaded very long and needing to be reseated.

So tried to optimize seating depth next. Powder charge was a guess/rough calc to keep speed around 2730 fps, where my prior loads did well, but not yet optimized for the old Sierra bullet.

Kept the tuner at 2 where it shot the 142 gn SMKs the best at 200 (around 0.3 MOA). Then this past weekend, optimized seating depth at 100 yards, reseating at the bench, and got this nice 3 shot group at a very long jump. Was trying to get below mag length:

FDD4EC16-7FEC-4455-9E63-C27338F1BABE.jpeg


Will have to start over and load another batch of ammo at the bench, this time i will follow the approach Mr Thomas wrote up earlier: First optimize powder charge to find a flat spot in the speed curve that will hopefully also minimize SD.

Maybe i was just lucky, but have to say it was remarkably easy to get a good 200 yard load with only the tuner. Seating dept optimization then made it slightly better (group size came down from 0.3 to 0.15 MOA). [Yep, i realize a 5 shot group would be more representative, but ran out of ammo...]

Perhaps because the SMK is easier to load for than a VLD, and is not particularly jump sensitive?
 
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Has anybody who bought one of these tuners had a chance to complete load development?

Any feedback, tips or tricks? Come on guys post some pics of your targets!
 
NamibHunter said:
Has anybody who bought one of these tuners had a chance to complete load development?

Any feedback, tips or tricks? Come on guys post some pics of your targets!
Click to expand...

......the video shows it all.

I have several of them. Work’s exactly how the video shows.
 
Anyone know whether or not the Adaptive Tuning System will work with the APA Gen 3 Little Bastard/Fat Bastard brakes?
 
Anyone know of a site selling the Adaptive Tuning System that has a Labor Day sale going on right now?
 
Another question, does anyone know whether or not the Adaptive Tuning System will fit over a Proof Research Competition contour barrel?
 
Fits up to 1.05” barrel if I remember correctly.
 
From the Kinetic Security Solutions ATS site:

Competition model
Support barrels up to 1.05" diameter approximately 2 inches behind the muzzle.
 
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avastcosmicarena said:
How much clearance is there? I'm guessing that's about as large of a barrel as will fit, right?
Click to expand...

There is an email address on the company's web site, they typically respond within a day.

I think you will find it a well designed device with ample threads remaining for a brake or a suppressor.

Aaron is very responsive, and i have found him to be very supportive and helpful. Try it!
 
Looking at the diagram on the Proof site it is .980" at the muzzle at 28". If you have the barrel just measure 2" behind the threads and see if it's less than 1.05". If you don't then check with Aaron or even Proof.

If you don't have the barrel yet though it would be easy enough to have the smith contour that area when installing the barrel so it will fit so not really an issue.
 
Dolomite_Supafly said:
@2aBaCa

I bet you could use a jam nut to adjust a muzzle brake to do something similar, maybe not the same as a tuner but it would definitely change things.
Click to expand...
100% true. So long as you have a shoulder for the brake to back up to, as you torque the break you'll change the barrel harmonics. No different then tuning a guitar string.
 
Regarding and moving weight...

About two and a half decades ago I work at Briley Manufacturing. They were making a moveable weight system for two purposes one weights went on the end of a blupe tube ( specifically on a 10/22). This was to change the balance / swing of the rifle for offhand shooting. ( side note, there was a competition back in the 90s something Team Challenge don't recall that these rifles were made for)... the movable weight was cut from about a 2 inch round stock stainless steel, about a half inch thick. They were then bored to the barrel diameter, had to be parallel / 0 taper Barrel, sliced on one side and drilled and tapped accordingly so that they can be tightened to the barrel.

Discount stumbled upon really by accident. If I remember correctly, Mike G, was the one doing the testing. Got his 10/22, a set of weights and went to the range. It was already known how the rifle shot to begin with, put the weight on and it shot worse ( weight positioned in a place that gave him good balance). So, of course he starts diagnosing a problem thinking it could be ammunition, Croydon the barrel oh, maybe a scope issue etc. Eventually he took the white off and magically started shooting well again.

Of course this led to moving the weight forward and backward which change the tune of the rifle. But, there would be a point where it would shoot well but may not be well-balanced for offhand shooting... Hence the movable weight blupe tube set up. It works well but was kind of a pain to set up
 
seanh said:
100% true. So long as you have a shoulder for the brake to back up to, as you torque the break you'll change the barrel harmonics. No different then tuning a guitar string.
Click to expand...

You can also tune groups size on an AR if it has an adjustable gas block. Have a thinner than pencil barrel that really woke up. I was initially getting on paper at 25 yards and was given a ~1"-2" group. I moved back to 100 and the groups opened up to ~4"-5". I was able to get that group down to MOA by doing nothing more than adjusting the gas block. I have noticed this with most of my ARs with adjustable gas blocks. The thicker the barrel the less of an affect adjusting the gas has on group size.
 
Has anyone put one of these Adaptive Tuning Systems units behind an Area 419 self-timing brake with their universal adapter?

Specifically looking at putting one behind a Sidewinder four-port brake on a barrel threaded 3/4-24 at the muzzle, and would like to make sure I have enough threads for both the brake adapter, and the tuner.
 
I use it with the 419 hellfire break - works like a charm on 5/8-24. I just use a brass socket to put the universal adapter to not scratch it.
 
Erik posted a good utube video where he used his tuner to get the group size down, when he did not have enough time to tune seating depth:



I think this scenario illustrates the flexibility and convenience of a good tuner: If you do not have time to load a batch with various different seating depths (or the kit to reseat at the range), or you are forced to use commercial ammo, then the tuner is a superb alternative.

Who would not prefer to buy a modern rifle that has a special knob for dialing up smaller groups? After using another tuner design for 4 months, and seeing many more groups in the ones than before, I really think all rifles should be equipped with a tuner, simply because of the convenience and flexibility it provides.

Yes you can do the same with seating depth, but that takes more work, and more trips to the range. And not everybody wants to reload.
 
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NamibHunter said:
Erik posted a good utube video where he used his tuner to get the group size down, when he did not have enough time to tune seating depth:



I think this scenario illustrates the flexibility and convenience of a good tuner: If you do not have time to load a batch with various different seating depths (or the kit to reseat at the range), or you are forced to use commercial ammo, then the tuner is a superb alternative.

Who would not prefer to buy a modern rifle that has a special knob for dialing up smaller groups? After using another tuner design for 4 months, and seeing many more groups in the ones than before, I really think all rifles should be equipped with a tuner, simply because of the convenience and flexibility it provides.

Yes you can do the same with seating depth, but that takes more work, and more trips to the range. And not everybody wants to reload.
Click to expand...


This is what I do now with prs rifles. I just jump .020 or so, then use the tuner. Less work on my end for perfectly acceptable precision for steel targets.

Factory ammo it really shines on.
 
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