- Thread starter AKMsoldier
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The United States Navy Mark 12 Mod 0/1 Special Purpose Rifle is a semi-automatic designated marksman rifle that was in service with United States Special Operations Forces in the designated marksman role until 2017. You can argue whether a Designated Marksman is a true sniper or not. However, this rifle was popular for the spotter on Sniper teams.
That sir, is a fine example of a Mk12!
Sniping is an activity not a particular set of equipment. So if someone sets up a blind and waits for enemies to kill with an ar15 then it's a sniper rifle. If I plink steel with mine then it's not.
I used to hunt snipe in the everglades with a citori. So, sniping snipe with a sniper shotgun. 
Well they called John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo (D.C. Shooters) Snipers. A name is a name. A skill is a skill.
If you are asking if there are AR-15s that can shoot well at distance, then absolutely there are. They shoot even better under trained supervision.
If you are asking if there are AR-15s that can shoot well at distance, then absolutely there are. They shoot even better under trained supervision.
How far is the effective range for AR15? I assume in windy conitions it would not be as good as bigger calibers.
300 meters... 500 meters, 600 meters..... it’ll pop you out at 1000 but probably won’t be a severe wound.
usmc shoots themforQualifying at 500, in the army, we took them to 300.
My first time overseas I was issued a MK12 mod 0 [or maybe it was a SAM-R, I just remember that I thought of it as an accurized M16 with a variable optic] and a PVS-24. I was given the DMR role on my team because I was a good shot, but also because my senior guys didn't want more serialized gear to take care of. LOL.
The rifle was just that; a marksman's rifle. More accurate than my M16A4 at the time for, sure... Heavier as well, for sure. I remember spending long nights on a post or in a hide looking through that PVS-24 on it. I however would never consider myself a sniper.
That being said, I agree with Diverdon. Sniping is an activity, not a thing.
Anything that a sniper is confident with might be used for "sniping". To call something a "sniping thing" is by it's very nature arbitrary.
Most "sniper systems" historically have just been accurized versions of guns that have already been realized by civilian groups or troops to be worth while.
Examples being 1898 Krag Sniper Rifles, 1903 Sniper Rifles, 1903A4, M1C/M1D, M21/M25, M24/M40, etc... All variants of popular already existing rifles.
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In his book “Lone Survivor,” Marcus Luttrell states that he preferred the 5.56 semi auto rifle over others for sniping. I do not remember a specific model, though it may have been there.
I have a set of tools, it does not make me a mechanic, well a paid one atleast. I have several actual sniper rifles, it does not make me a sniper. See the trend yet? If an trained "sniper" engages at 50-80 yards do you still think he is a sniper? Is the requirement a certain range? Lol, he'll no... A trained marksman is just that a man, everything else is just tools. I'm just nobody though and these are just my own observations....
Most everything that we do in life is a perishable skill. The longer we go without doing that skill, the quality of our effort suffers. Riding bicycles maybe not as much as shooting or even Sniping, but still a diminished result.
A Sniper is still using his (or her) skills even at 50-80 yards, but rounds should hopefully be stacking that close.
A Sniper is still using his (or her) skills even at 50-80 yards, but rounds should hopefully be stacking that close.
Some guys are using 14.5” ARs with 1-6x or 2-10x for urban enviroments, majority of “use” is inside 300m
Mark 12 Mod 0 for sure. 77 gr BTH is my go-to for popping Does out to 250 yards. It's my baby...and I would think even as designated an SPR it would double down as a "sniper" if needed per the task at hand.
For a sniper AR15 setup does it make sense to invest in premium uppers like Noveske or Bravo ?
I would think it's negligible. Depends on how precise you're trying to get I suppose. I will say I can tell a difference in accuracy from my mk12 mod0 precision reflex upper as opposed to my PSA 16"...but that's apples to something else. My advice would be to spend your coin on a good barrel, carrier/bolt, free float handguard, upper receiver, flash hider... in that order.
Ammo, an optic and a free floating rail are most important. If you gave me a limited budget I’m going to free float an M4 barrel and buy good ammo. Which is why the DMR rifles disappeared. They didn’t need fancy barrels to do what they were asking for.
This is where the difference comes in between an SPR and a Recce/DMR. The accuracy needed with a higher power optic and longer ranges is significantly more. The Crane infographic for the Mk12 was powerful. It showed accuracy relative to the M16. The circle showing expected mean radius was centered on the targets chest for the M16 and head for the Mk12.
Sorry...What is DMR?
Terminology aside, why not? New rounds like the valkyrie and arc will get the job done. Not as well other calibers in other platforms though.
The Turbo40 and FatRat have been around a while too.
The Turbo40 and FatRat have been around a while too.
Considering THIS is what comes up as the first result for Google when you type in DMR
Designated marksman rifle - Wikipedia
You know......
Every time you are about to type "sniper" you should type "long range precision" instead. Ok?
A better question is what you want to do with the weapon. You’ve started how many threads on this type of topic since you joined six days ago? Four? Why not just tell us what you want to do and we can probably get you there a lot faster that this random “what’s the best XYZ” subject line will get you.
exactly....what’s your purpose or intent AKMsoldier? This platform, I dare say is the most customizable firearm type in the world? Your application will drive you in a direction for setting it up the way you want.
I have three 24" 223's.
One of them is a Savage 11VT bolt gun, that I have fired in competition at 600yd; and one of the two Stag Model 6's was firing the same course right alongside me, same load, too.
Would it go further, yes.
Would it be effective beyond 600yd? That would depend upon air density (including altitude) and the given projectile's terminal performance.
My best bet for beyond 600yd terminal effectiveness? The Speer 75gr Gold Dot Rifle Bullet, Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection Ammunition.
For reference, its BC is listed variously by Speer at .400 and .411; the Hornady 75gr HPBT Match Hollowpoint has a BC of .395.
Does that make these combinations into sniper rifles?
IMHO, only if the shooter is an actual Sniper.
The AR-15 allows a rapid conversion to suit many different applications by simply swapping out Uppers. For example, 6.5 Grendel, .350 Legend, etc.
IMHO, for distance work, the 223/5.56 is not the right implement because it lacks terminal energy at extended distances.
6.5 Creedmore would be much better choice.
OTOH, I believe that the FBI once reported that the average LE Sniper shot distance was 60yd.
I qualified on Parris Island at 500, 300, 200yd with an M-14, which is chambered in .308/7.62x51 NATO.
Greg
One of them is a Savage 11VT bolt gun, that I have fired in competition at 600yd; and one of the two Stag Model 6's was firing the same course right alongside me, same load, too.
Would it go further, yes.
Would it be effective beyond 600yd? That would depend upon air density (including altitude) and the given projectile's terminal performance.
My best bet for beyond 600yd terminal effectiveness? The Speer 75gr Gold Dot Rifle Bullet, Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection Ammunition.
For reference, its BC is listed variously by Speer at .400 and .411; the Hornady 75gr HPBT Match Hollowpoint has a BC of .395.
Does that make these combinations into sniper rifles?
IMHO, only if the shooter is an actual Sniper.
The AR-15 allows a rapid conversion to suit many different applications by simply swapping out Uppers. For example, 6.5 Grendel, .350 Legend, etc.
IMHO, for distance work, the 223/5.56 is not the right implement because it lacks terminal energy at extended distances.
6.5 Creedmore would be much better choice.
OTOH, I believe that the FBI once reported that the average LE Sniper shot distance was 60yd.
I qualified on Parris Island at 500, 300, 200yd with an M-14, which is chambered in .308/7.62x51 NATO.
Greg
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Mk12 is the tits. I love my Mk12 Mod H.
SPR is usually 18 inch barrel. DMR is usually 20 inch barrel. Reece is 16 inch barrel.
Both Noveske and Bravo upper have very tight fits with the barrel extension. I'd personally go with Bravo instead of PRI or Colt, because Bravo is known to machine their upper slightly undersize for a tighter fits with your barrel.
Yes, how tight the upper fits with the barrel extension does matter. We already have multiple threads regarding this topic in here.
SPR is usually 18 inch barrel. DMR is usually 20 inch barrel. Reece is 16 inch barrel.
Both Noveske and Bravo upper have very tight fits with the barrel extension. I'd personally go with Bravo instead of PRI or Colt, because Bravo is known to machine their upper slightly undersize for a tighter fits with your barrel.
Yes, how tight the upper fits with the barrel extension does matter. We already have multiple threads regarding this topic in here.
Thank you. Excellent questions. I will try to answer and I think now I know exactly what I want. I don't want another DMR because that't what my Springfield M1A is (with a factory glass bedding and Gen 1 scope). I need a cool modern looking. good value (not cheap but not too expensive either), reliable sub MOA rifle that can realistically shoot and kill at 1000 yards. I am thinking about 6.5creedmoor but I am not sure. I have a Scholt scope. I will start without a suppressor and will see later. I have AR15s and plenty of other tools for short distances. I was looking at DPMS for a while before it disappeared. Same story was withColt Python and Walther P5. I don't want to wait for too long this time but may wait toll this COVID 19 thing is over.
What is a Scholt scope?
And what are you planning to shoot and kill at 1000 yards? Gophers......Bear.....two totally different guns.
had a daisy sniper rifle way back in the day , I know it's not exactly the same thing but we were able to pick a friends older brother off the roof of his house while he was waiting with his bb gun up there to shoot us getting off the school bus while we snuck around the woods so he could not see . So same purpose even if the distances were not all that impressive it still felt really like a victory if only a small one .
Since we're in COVID19 season, it's almost impossible to find parts, specifically because the MK12 is a "clone" MIL rifle. It would be a better option to by a complete MK12 from PRI/BCM. It'll be more expensive when you add the appropriate glass, and a can later on. I'm partial to the Mod H for a shorter barrel. Nothing wrong with Mod 0 or Mod 1, personal preference. I know of someone who consistently shot a MK12 Mod H out to 1000yd. Question is do you have the skills and are you running the best ammo for that gun.
I wouldn't go with a 6.5CM on an AR platform, defeat its purpose. 6.5CM is best as bolt action with a 22/24 inch barrel. No one in their right mind would run an AR with a 24 inch barrel. My 6.5 bolt is capable of 1 inch at 200 yd with Hornady Black 140 grain.
I wouldn't go with a 6.5CM on an AR platform, defeat its purpose. 6.5CM is best as bolt action with a 22/24 inch barrel. No one in their right mind would run an AR with a 24 inch barrel. My 6.5 bolt is capable of 1 inch at 200 yd with Hornady Black 140 grain.
Okay, SDM's are not snipers, they are (were when I went through and later trained 'em at SBASC) trained infantrymen that shot 40/40 at their last two quals. with M4, 270 PT test and GT score of (I forget, but it's the same as sniper school). We took 'em for a month and trained 'em on NM competition shooting with irons, then Acog. THEN we took 'em over to UKD ranges, "sniper" ranges (ranges with cooler shit to shoot from) shoot houses, runs through Hogan's Alley type scenarios (ours were 800m and you had to run the whole thing and it was a timed event that included crawling through a tunnel and movement using smoke screen under fire). Lots and lots of fun.
The rifle was originally a stock M4 with an Acog NSN (you can in part thank us for that becoming the standard) and Harris bipod with a modified M14 sling that could be used like a NM sling. If the shooter had the time to modify the sling and didn't forget his dope, it sure helped. Oh, during the school we gave 'em M16 lowers and took their M4 lowers and locked 'em up --it's fucking hard to teach marksmanship with a loose stock. SOPMOD wasn't around yet.
Mk12 was the army's answer to what we'd been bitching about but it wasn't what we asked for. USMC had their idea of the idea DMR (which is Designated Marksman Rifle) and it's more in line with what we wanted. KAC FF rail, M16 stock, 20" match grade bbl.
In practice, army fielded everything under the sun from 5.56 to 7.62 and even 6.5. Last year Sig 716's in 6.5CM, KAC 110's and others were still in use. We tried to get M14's twenty years ago but that's another story about army fuckery (the M14's are not drawable like your M4 is --they simply couldn't figure out how to issue 'em so fuck us, M4's it was --but I bet had they dragged those motherfuckers to Mosul they'd have found a way).
Navy got ahold of the Mk12. They didn't like it. Too heavy, not accurate enough for what it is. That CF handguard is heavier than aluminum and it has another rail that goes on top of it that adds more weigh but makes it monolithic.
Navy SEAL apparently had Crane, et. al. come up with something better. They tested a bunch of shit and settled on what they call the "recce" rifle, also known as "sniper M4". It's the exact same rifle USMC and SBASC wanted but with a 16" Lilja bbl. They left the specs on 'em loose so you could choose the handguard, the optics, etc., and there are pictures of 'em in all sorts of configurations. This one is most common (not sure about the Mk4 --I think there are four variations and army, navy and marines each used a different one):
This is what I championed though:
But then Mk20 came along and changed all that IMO. Don't have a picture of mine off hand but it's got a 1-8x USO and PEQ, same Harris bipod. I honestly feel it's the best DMR option available. Army went G28, rifle was so goddamn expensive though I guess that's why they got stuck with Sig scopes? What the fuck ever, army being army. Mk20 w/6x Acog will get the job done. Mk20 is full of screws and afterthoughts and could have benefited from a folding stock but it's still the best overall option IMO. And I say Acog over LPVO due to the fact an SDM needs to be Johnny on the spot with the overwatch. No fucking with dials. If you can't do Kentucky windage and MOA math on the fly, you ain't an SDM, period.
A spotter's job is a bit different than an SDM. When an SDM gets into position, he's functioning a lot like a sniper and spotter combined, otherwise he's a doorkicker. He has relatively low need for camo and his movement is usually covered by a platoon size element or larger --he ain't on his own. Less comms, more ammo. But there are times the roles reverse.
SDM's IME get more range time. It was common for snipers to go through our course if possible --I mean, we had the ranges. It was common for snipers to share our ranges and more than a few times SF guys would lend a hand and we'd share our range. We used Bde. snipers from all units as instructors. SDM's were trained in spotter/shooter teams so they know how that works. Each pair had a sniper assigned to them to call shots and monitor the shooters. Now big army took our school from us in 2004 and fucked it up and I don't know what they do at Benning now but I do know it's only half the course.
It's always been an interesting discussion for sure. IME SDM's got more range time, thus what attracted the snipers to the course (it was fun, trust me). And once you were an SDM, you were allowed to draw you rifle and bring it to any range we had running provided your COC didn't give a shit. This wasn't used as much as it should have. Snipers got the stalking training, SDM's didn't. Hell, I always wanted to be a sniper until I got into SDM shit! And there was a point when they were considering making up a tab for SDM's much like snipers --but since snipers are sometimes treated like spies in the field it was figured why bother, because even though it's stupid to wear a sniper tab on a deployment uniform, there were still guys that sewed that tab under their pocket flaps. Stupid. One less thing to worry about. Having some kind of designation on your DD214 would have been nice though.
We were so old school and under the radar we had our own uniform, didn't wear rank or go by it (you could say we traded our military bearing for pure warrior attitude) brought our own shit to the ranges, pissed off lots of brass. But we were the Bde. CO's pets and we performed. We also ran pre-ranger and pre-sniper course as well as teaching butter bars how to actually shoot their pistols. For going through West Point, they somehow all developed "Glock fingers" or so we were to believe because they couldn't hit shit with an M9. FWIW, I was the only instructor that hadn't been to a formal sniper school. So that should tell you right there where it all comes from and how it was developed.
IMHO, the school was really only to hone those that were already good shooters, teach 'em a few tricks, get 'em on point with an optic, but the most important thing we did was to introduce them to their rifle for the first time regardless of how many times they shot it, what it's capable of to it's limit, and absolute top of the list? To provide dope on their rifle and a confidence in how it shoots to the limits of capabilities.
Which for 5.56 out of a 14.5" bbl. will be right at 600m w/M855. I set up 800m and 1k targets for the 7.62's we brought from home to play with and I'd try 'em with the M4 but best I never got useable dope --do your best it still goes trans somewhere around 700 and restabilizes to a new trajectory that isn't what you planned on and it can literally go over, in front of or to either side of the target. Ie, it's useless past 600m.
AND I've been downrange while they were shooting... Yeah, I know, don't need to hear it. Anyway, that "SNAP!!!" starts to go away at 600 and that oughta tell you something too. Which is that if 5.56 is fine for 600m, then .22lr if fine for door kicking --and it ain't. Trend was towards 6.5CM but I guess HK's dick don't get hard for that so G28's only come in 7.62 I understand so we're back to that.
Man, don't drag me into an SDM discussion, I got shit to do!
The rifle was originally a stock M4 with an Acog NSN (you can in part thank us for that becoming the standard) and Harris bipod with a modified M14 sling that could be used like a NM sling. If the shooter had the time to modify the sling and didn't forget his dope, it sure helped. Oh, during the school we gave 'em M16 lowers and took their M4 lowers and locked 'em up --it's fucking hard to teach marksmanship with a loose stock. SOPMOD wasn't around yet.
Mk12 was the army's answer to what we'd been bitching about but it wasn't what we asked for. USMC had their idea of the idea DMR (which is Designated Marksman Rifle) and it's more in line with what we wanted. KAC FF rail, M16 stock, 20" match grade bbl.
In practice, army fielded everything under the sun from 5.56 to 7.62 and even 6.5. Last year Sig 716's in 6.5CM, KAC 110's and others were still in use. We tried to get M14's twenty years ago but that's another story about army fuckery (the M14's are not drawable like your M4 is --they simply couldn't figure out how to issue 'em so fuck us, M4's it was --but I bet had they dragged those motherfuckers to Mosul they'd have found a way).
Navy got ahold of the Mk12. They didn't like it. Too heavy, not accurate enough for what it is. That CF handguard is heavier than aluminum and it has another rail that goes on top of it that adds more weigh but makes it monolithic.
Navy SEAL apparently had Crane, et. al. come up with something better. They tested a bunch of shit and settled on what they call the "recce" rifle, also known as "sniper M4". It's the exact same rifle USMC and SBASC wanted but with a 16" Lilja bbl. They left the specs on 'em loose so you could choose the handguard, the optics, etc., and there are pictures of 'em in all sorts of configurations. This one is most common (not sure about the Mk4 --I think there are four variations and army, navy and marines each used a different one):
This is what I championed though:
But then Mk20 came along and changed all that IMO. Don't have a picture of mine off hand but it's got a 1-8x USO and PEQ, same Harris bipod. I honestly feel it's the best DMR option available. Army went G28, rifle was so goddamn expensive though I guess that's why they got stuck with Sig scopes? What the fuck ever, army being army. Mk20 w/6x Acog will get the job done. Mk20 is full of screws and afterthoughts and could have benefited from a folding stock but it's still the best overall option IMO. And I say Acog over LPVO due to the fact an SDM needs to be Johnny on the spot with the overwatch. No fucking with dials. If you can't do Kentucky windage and MOA math on the fly, you ain't an SDM, period.
A spotter's job is a bit different than an SDM. When an SDM gets into position, he's functioning a lot like a sniper and spotter combined, otherwise he's a doorkicker. He has relatively low need for camo and his movement is usually covered by a platoon size element or larger --he ain't on his own. Less comms, more ammo. But there are times the roles reverse.
SDM's IME get more range time. It was common for snipers to go through our course if possible --I mean, we had the ranges. It was common for snipers to share our ranges and more than a few times SF guys would lend a hand and we'd share our range. We used Bde. snipers from all units as instructors. SDM's were trained in spotter/shooter teams so they know how that works. Each pair had a sniper assigned to them to call shots and monitor the shooters. Now big army took our school from us in 2004 and fucked it up and I don't know what they do at Benning now but I do know it's only half the course.
It's always been an interesting discussion for sure. IME SDM's got more range time, thus what attracted the snipers to the course (it was fun, trust me). And once you were an SDM, you were allowed to draw you rifle and bring it to any range we had running provided your COC didn't give a shit. This wasn't used as much as it should have. Snipers got the stalking training, SDM's didn't. Hell, I always wanted to be a sniper until I got into SDM shit! And there was a point when they were considering making up a tab for SDM's much like snipers --but since snipers are sometimes treated like spies in the field it was figured why bother, because even though it's stupid to wear a sniper tab on a deployment uniform, there were still guys that sewed that tab under their pocket flaps. Stupid. One less thing to worry about. Having some kind of designation on your DD214 would have been nice though.
We were so old school and under the radar we had our own uniform, didn't wear rank or go by it (you could say we traded our military bearing for pure warrior attitude) brought our own shit to the ranges, pissed off lots of brass. But we were the Bde. CO's pets and we performed. We also ran pre-ranger and pre-sniper course as well as teaching butter bars how to actually shoot their pistols. For going through West Point, they somehow all developed "Glock fingers" or so we were to believe because they couldn't hit shit with an M9. FWIW, I was the only instructor that hadn't been to a formal sniper school. So that should tell you right there where it all comes from and how it was developed.
IMHO, the school was really only to hone those that were already good shooters, teach 'em a few tricks, get 'em on point with an optic, but the most important thing we did was to introduce them to their rifle for the first time regardless of how many times they shot it, what it's capable of to it's limit, and absolute top of the list? To provide dope on their rifle and a confidence in how it shoots to the limits of capabilities.
Which for 5.56 out of a 14.5" bbl. will be right at 600m w/M855. I set up 800m and 1k targets for the 7.62's we brought from home to play with and I'd try 'em with the M4 but best I never got useable dope --do your best it still goes trans somewhere around 700 and restabilizes to a new trajectory that isn't what you planned on and it can literally go over, in front of or to either side of the target. Ie, it's useless past 600m.
AND I've been downrange while they were shooting... Yeah, I know, don't need to hear it. Anyway, that "SNAP!!!" starts to go away at 600 and that oughta tell you something too. Which is that if 5.56 is fine for 600m, then .22lr if fine for door kicking --and it ain't. Trend was towards 6.5CM but I guess HK's dick don't get hard for that so G28's only come in 7.62 I understand so we're back to that.
Man, don't drag me into an SDM discussion, I got shit to do!
I dont really understand why 24 inch barrel and AR are not very compatible. Of course, I never tried that. I usually buy full AR15s. The only one I had build for me was YHM. All parts were YHM with a YHM barrel which was not forged but made of compressed metal particles (i forgot the proper metallurgical term for that. I still have that AR but honestly, accuracy of this creation is not just second to my Colt but also second to my Stag ARs.
Cool looking is a criteria? Okay.
I'll use the 5.56 77gr for Doe, spikes, predators, and cactus. That's about it. Too many hog have run off with a round lodged in their thick hide never to be found or leave a blood trail. Now I carry a scar17 for semi auto miscellaneous. The setup served a purpose at the time is my understanding.
They distinguish a difference in equipment in the military. I don’t care either way but I’m just passing onto you the technicalities of the military.
So the SASS or CASS all use the word sniper in the acronym. It’s because they are cable or something like 3 moa accuracy at a particular distance. I don’t remember the stupid slide shows.
SASR has no mention of the word sniper because it’s not meant to be implemented for precision purposes, even though it’s capable.
The roles ARE in fact the main difference but still, hiding is not indicative to these roles. The roles themselves are different intraservice as the Army have qualified snipers whilst the marines snipers have their own MOS. You could be an MP standing around a ECP with a (insert scoped rifle)...they would not be a sniper, they would be a designated marksman standing gate guard in some shit smelling county.
Snipers generally have specific roles to the infantry. Which is why in either service one would have to be an infantryman of a sorts.
Hi,
FWIW Guys....this is whom you guys are attempting to answer.....He is a book of cliches.
www.snipershide.com
Sincerely,
Theis
FWIW Guys....this is whom you guys are attempting to answer.....He is a book of cliches.
Why bolt???
I was seriously considering a TIKKA T3X TAC A1 6.5 CREEDMOOR rifle but then discovered that semi-autos as just as accurate and actually cost much less. Can anyone please give me a reason why is TIKKA better for 1000 yards than some PSA AR10 with a long barrel?
www.snipershide.com Sincerely,
Theis
I just want to back up @THEIS here. Why would any of you engage with an idiot who posts such drivel?
??
556 sucks versus 6.5 cm especially in the wind past 5-600 yards
6.5 cm rocks in a semi even with a 20” barrel and 9” can
Some of yall need to get off the low wind square range
There’s a place for that rifle, but it’s not a replacement for a 16” 5.56 with a 1-10.
Friday never disappoints around here. Popcorn popping.
Literally the first Response to this thread says Designated Marksman Rifle 2 times and Designated Marksman Role 1 time.
Even Gomer Pile can get the answer to question 46 on the SAT when question 55 has the same words in it.
308pirate... Just a reminder: this forum is for exchanging opinions, not for insulting other people with words like "idiot" . If you have financial, family or other problems, go to see a doctor...do not cowardly relieve your frustration from feeling like a loser on people on the internet.
Like what's the best sniper rifle for 1000 yard kills? Opinions like that?
Why not?
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