Rifle Scopes Scope Mounting - Eye Relief & Tall People Problems?

1911Shootist · Nov 20, 2020

Speaking specifically to eye relief and where the scope is mounted on the gun, I've always ascribed to philosophy of setting a scope where it's most comfortable, at max magnification (narrowest eye box), in your most common shooting position (prone, bench, offhand, etc).

Following this, I almost always have to slam the scope as far forward as I can, even with longer LOP stocks, to the point of having to shave a pic rail down to clear the magnification ring/throw lever on some setups. I also have to seek out cheek risers (or extensions), pads and other BS to make the rifle feel natural for me...

I'm 6' 4", so not quite freakishly tall, but tall enough to be on the bad end of the bell curve for most things fitting me... Is my scope setup to be expected, or am I doing something odd/wrong?

A few of my rifles for reference:

10ring'r · Nov 20, 2020

I've got the same issue and I'm only 6'2". All my scopes, have always been in the farthest most position, at least, on my gas guns. Most reason being, to be able to get a good purchase on the charging handle(s). I have adj. stocks on my guns, so I set it up and then, take a "Sharpie" and mark the buffer tube, so I can set it correctly, quickly, every time. My Remington(s), with synthetic stocks, the scope is pretty much mounted, where yours is. I must have a longer torso & longer arms, compared to most people my size. If it works for you, then that's all that matters. Mac

ETA: Nice weaponry!

rust4brains · Nov 21, 2020

I am 6’2” and my set ups appear the same as yours. So, in my opinion you are normal.

Criver600 · Nov 21, 2020

6'-3" I have the three finger rule. Get comfortable on the gun, I want three fingers between my eyebrow and the end of the scope.

1moaoff · Nov 21, 2020

Try taller rings

1911Shootist · Nov 21, 2020

1moaoff said:
Try taller rings

Why? I already have to add extensions to my cheek risers - taller rings would only make that worse.

Denys · Nov 22, 2020

I'm 6'4" or probably a little less now with age. I always use the tallest rings I can find on my rifles. For instance, my F-TR rifle built on a Kelbly Panda F-class action and it has a dovetail. I have since purchased a Kelbly Picatinny ramp on top of which my 34mm diameter March-X 10-60X56 HM sits in very high Burris XTR rings. Distance between bore line and scope center is 2.5 inches. I like a tall setup on the rifle, especially if I'm going to be on the mat for up to 30 minutes looking through the scope. This is very comfortable for me.

BTW, my LOP is set at 14.5 inches

DubfromGA · Nov 22, 2020

6'4" here.

Or at least I used to be.....gravity & age conspire.

Will be watching this thread. Great insight. Thanks.

Dthomas3523 · Nov 23, 2020

Find a qualified instructor and have them make sure you are addressing the rifle properly.

Having to max out your cheek riser on low rings means you have a very high cheek bone, or something is up with how you address rifle.

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

Dthomas3523 said:
Find a qualified instructor and have them make sure you are addressing the rifle properly.

Having to max out your cheek riser on low rings means you have a very high cheek bone, or something is up with how you address rifle.

Interesting idea. Any recommendations? While we have some exceptional PRS/NRL(22) shooters in my area (MN/midwest), and some of them can teach you how to shoot, I'm not sure if any of them are qualified in the ergos/setup area.

FatBoy · Nov 23, 2020

You think it’s bad when you’re behind the rifle on a bipod or bag? Try slinging up. The scope needs to be about 2” further forward, sometimes more. Almost all Highpower prone rifles (ARs included) have an extended pic rail attached to allow the scope to sit much further forward. Easy fix but adds a tiny bit of height.

isofahunter · Nov 23, 2020

6' 3"For years I made me/rifle fit the scope. This year I started to fit the rifle to me first then mount the optic to meet my comfort level. I was surprised how much difference there was. I end up adding 3 inch extensions to my bipods, using higher rings and buttpad higher, my comfort level and shooting prone improved particularly with my 308. First step as @Dthomas3523 says is get your position right then fit rifle then optic to you. Made me a better (more relaxed) shooter YMMV.

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

isofahunter said:
First step as @Dthomas3523 says is get your position right then fit rifle then optic to you. Made me a better (more relaxed) shooter YMMV.

This setup is the result of me being most comfortable behind the rifle... like take a nap comfortable. Whether my comfortable position is appropriate or not is debatable.

Pbgt · Nov 23, 2020

With your objective lens at what size it is, you can't lower the ring height. Are you able to get a useable eye relief in both bench and prone with that set up? Is your head vertical like normal or are you "laying" on the cheek rest? Can you run the bolt without lifting your right elbow? A vid of you in different positions would be helpful. What zip code you in?

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

Pbgt said:
With your objective lens at what size it is, you can't lower the ring height. Are you able to get a useable eye relief in both bench and prone with that set up? Is your head vertical like normal or are you "laying" on the cheek rest? Can you run the bolt without lifting your right elbow? A vid of you in different positions would be helpful. What zip code you in?

I typically set them up so that I am at the front end of the eye box when prone, which puts me in the middle of it on the bench and toward the rear when offhand. I'm usually looking out of the top of my eyes, If I try taller rings or lower cheek rests, I feel like I have to unaturally scrunch up my neck and or float without a firm/consistent cheek weld. I don't know if I've ever paid attention to whether I'm lifting my elbow or not... What would that indicate?

I'm in the SE metro.

Pbgt · Nov 23, 2020

the elbow lift can sometimes indicate LOP is a bit long, I see shooters lay over the stock without realizing it(ever so slight.. to an obvious head cant). What do your shot groupings look like? The groupings will tell a tale, from each position. I am 56401, pm me if ya get up this way.

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

Thanks for the offer, I'll keep that in mind. I'm usually only get up there for dirt biking at Miller Hills or the NRL-X & Kof.28 miles matches at Rush Lake Range.

At 6'4", LOP might not be long enough at 14.5"

Denys · Nov 23, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Thanks for the offer, I'll keep that in mind. I'm usually only get up there for dirt biking at Miller Hills or the NRL-X & Kof.28 miles matches at Rush Lake Range.

At 6'4", LOP might not be long enough at 14.5"

So, that caused me to go measure the LOP on my F-TR match rifle. Something I had not done in years. It was smack at 14.5, from the middle of the buttplate to the bow of the trigger: 14.5". I also checked my driver's license and it says 6'4".

Shooting from prone with a bag is very comfortable for me. And I seem to hit the target most times.

Pbgt · Nov 23, 2020

A little slo mo video of a shooter and....fukin BAM...what's going on is easy to see...

PJ65C · Nov 23, 2020

In to learn - Im 6'5" just getting into long range shooting. Friend of mine is a good shot, getting behind his bolt gun i can get on target fast and easily with both eyes open. On my gas gun its a different story, so definitely have setup issues. Looking forward to seeing how this transpires.

strikeeagle1 · Nov 23, 2020

There is a Big & Tall Rifle Scope store in our town but they hardly ever special pricing.

Lowlight · Nov 23, 2020

those are completely set up wrong for someone that tall,

Eye relief is not a function of your size, your LOP is, and then the placement of the head on the stock.

Once the fit of the stock is established, you set up the scope.

Measure your LOP from your inside elbow to your trigger finger bent at a 90 to simulate placement on the trigger shoe. don't use the knife hand and go to the tip of the fingers straight out

I would change out those rings, we have seen tons of problems with them binding scopes

Lowlight · Nov 23, 2020

The biggest issue with the rifle set up with tall guys is pushing the scope forward because you are too low on your bipod, and potentially your rings too.

Too low pushes your head forward, you need to be up higher on your elbows, when guys lay on top of the rifle the scopes are way forward.

See how high we put bigger guys up, look at the 10 round mag off the deck, he is on his elbows not forearms

Screen Shot 2020-11-23 at 4.48.57 PM.png

The mantra, "Get low as possible" does not apply in this context, the original origin of that is for positions,

Standing, Highest,
Kneeling, Lower than Standing and More Stable,
Sitting Lower than Kneeling and more stable
Prone the lowest and most stable so set the bipod up with the shooter's body size in mind. Get up on your elbows and not your forearms.

You're not a sniper stalking we don't have to be skull drag low, we can actually get comfortable.

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

lowlight said:
those are completely set up wrong for someone that tall,

Eye relief is not a function of your size, your LOP is, and then the placement of the head on the stock.

Height is a rough indicator of neck length, which is a function of LOP and scope position on the rifle, right? E.g. longer neck = scope further forward. Or so I'd think...

lowlight said:
Measure your LOP from your inside elbow to your trigger finger bent at a 90 to simulate placement on the trigger shoe. don't use the knife hand and go to the tip of the fingers straight out

14.25-14.5" is about right by that metric for me.

lowlight said:
I would change out those rings, we have seen tons of problems with them binding scopes

Interesting you say that, just had an issue with parallax adjustment on another rifle with these rings. Bummed - they seemed like good quality, reduce machining error, and don't cant the scope while torquing

Ugh, more money to spend...

lowlight said:
The biggest issue with the rifle set up with tall guys is pushing the scope forward because you are too low on your bipod, and potentially your rings too.

Too low pushes your head forward, you need to be up higher on your elbows, when guys lay on top of the rifle the scopes are way forward.

See how high we put bigger guys up, look at the 10 round mag off the deck, he is on his elbows not forearms
View attachment 7480543

The mantra, "Get low as possible" does not apply in this context, the original origin of that is for positions,

Standing, Highest,
Kneeling, Lower than Standing and More Stable,
Sitting Lower than Kneeling and more stable
Prone the lowest and most stable so set the bipod up with the shooter's body size in mind. Get up on your elbows and not your forearms.

You're not a sniper stalking we don't have to be skull drag low, we can actually get comfortable.

Interesting. Lower was always more stable and comfortable. I'll have to try taller everything. I'm usually 1-2 clicks up on my Atlas for flat stages. Even if I bump it up a 2 clicks and stand my heavy mini-fortune cookie as tall as it'll go, I still feel like the low rings are a good fit with my cheek bone solid on the riser. If I drop the riser &/or go for higher rings, I'll be floating...

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

Grabbed some quick prone videos - be gentle - I'm new:

Pbgt · Nov 23, 2020

I think your head is canting too much, rolling over the stock makes you compensate by raising your cheek rest up. Make sure the shoulder blades are square and I agree with lowlight, you look too low.

Newbie2020 · Nov 23, 2020

lowlight said:
The biggest issue with the rifle set up with tall guys is pushing the scope forward because you are too low on your bipod, and potentially your rings too.

Too low pushes your head forward, you need to be up higher on your elbows, when guys lay on top of the rifle the scopes are way forward.

See how high we put bigger guys up, look at the 10 round mag off the deck, he is on his elbows not forearms
View attachment 7480543

The mantra, "Get low as possible" does not apply in this context, the original origin of that is for positions,

Standing, Highest,
Kneeling, Lower than Standing and More Stable,
Sitting Lower than Kneeling and more stable
Prone the lowest and most stable so set the bipod up with the shooter's body size in mind. Get up on your elbows and not your forearms.

You're not a sniper stalking we don't have to be skull drag low, we can actually get comfortable.

In case any of you were still wondering: @lowlight knows his stuff. I’m 6’4”. I went to his class this year and he got me up on my elbows, raised the bipod, used a taller rear bag, and fixed my eye relief. I’ve never been this comfortable shooting from prone.

I was doing all the things he mentioned: laying on the rifle, too long of LOP, craning my neck, etc.

as @Dthomas3523 said: go to a quality class (@lowlight and @Enough Said), and let them fix your position and set up. You will not regret it.

1911Shootist · Nov 23, 2020

I don't doubt you, and don't doubt @lowlight knows his stuff

- I'm just trying to figure out what works for me and make sense of the info. I'd hope I have things like LOP, ring and comb height dialed long before I get to a class - I'd rather spend time learning than frantically searching for the right equipment.

I just threw on some tall (~0.25" taller) rings and can't get a consistent cheek weld. I'm searching for the reticle, and I know it'd be foreign for quite some time. I also feel like I need to yaw my face into the scope and put pressure on my sinuses to get there...

Precision Underground · Nov 23, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Grabbed some quick prone videos - be gentle - I'm new:

IMO you’re angled shoulders are causing your head to be too far forward. As you turn your support shoulder more toward the target your head goes with it. Get your body square, you’ll fell like you are angled way off the opposite way. Get your core connected to the ground by lifting yourself up with your back muscles. Connect yourself to the ground and then connect the rifle to you. You’re connecting the rifle on the ground and then laying on top of it.

Picture what would happen to your head if you squared all of these angles. It would move back, away from the scope.

CoryT · Nov 23, 2020

As above. You are badly off angle to the bore, in fact your spine is curved to your firing side.

Establish a straight line to the target using some tape, then make a 90 degree line at one end about three feet lone, so you have a T pointed at the target. When you lie down, you should be centered on that line, when you come up on your elbows they should be on the cross of the T. Now have someone place the rifle down parallel to your long line and slide it back to your shoulder. That is your basic alignment.. Don't lean your head over onto the stock, get the butt closer to your center line and keep your head upright

To get there from the last pic above, you'd need to move the muzzle some 30 degrees left, nearly touching the tripod rear leg. Your hips need to get squared up, and your legs then evenly spread. Right now, your hips are canted left so your right leg is almost straight and the left leg is pushed out, look at the line formed by ankle, knee, hip, shoulder. The lines for both legs should intersect near the base of your neck, yours currently intersect at your right shoulder. I presume you also have a problem with the rifle staying aligned with the target on the shot, you probably find it pushed off to one side. That's because of the hinge effect you have with the shoulders off angle and recoil exploiting the lack of mass centered behind the gun.

For the record, I'm a bit over 6'1" and run 12.75" LOP, the front edge of the power ring on my scopes sits right behind the trigger, about at the end of the bolt shroud.

Dthomas3523 · Nov 24, 2020

Yep. Lots of stuff there needing to be changed.

Need to get straight behind rifle and higher on elbows.

Need to not rely on that bag to support the rifle. Uses your core to support the rifle and then add the bag. The bag is there for fine adjustments and bit too surport the weight of the rifle. Using fortune cookies and gamechangers as your primary rear bag leads to bad habits.

That’s the short version. A class will help a ton.

Lowlight · Nov 24, 2020

In the words of Marc Taylor,

Enough Said,

it’s like watching everyone of my rants in real time, lol.

akmike47 · Nov 24, 2020

I'm 6'7(short asses

), I finally ate the cost and got a chassis and run a 15"+ LOP, it's maxed out with a thicker pad. Never been more comfortable length wise, I need to work on my form however(need a shooting buddy that really knows their shit).

I got a big ass head and don't have problems with eye relief, maybe you need a longer LOP?

DOA · Nov 24, 2020

6'2" and for a comfortable view I go with medium rings and scope forward.

Jack Master · Nov 24, 2020

First of all. Thanks for the videos from all angles. That takes balls and time to post here.

Yep. Theses fellas have you going the right direction. This is all solid advice.
1. Get squared up behind the rifle. This will move your head back from the action and fix some of the eye relief issues.
2. Move the butt pad of the rifle to your collar bone. More center line of your body. This will bring your head more vertical. And move your head back from the action too.
3. Get a little higher up on your elbows. This will bring your head more vertical.
4. Try "building a bridge" like Phil velayo showes doing. This gives you control of the rifle with your body rather than letting it just lay on the rear bag with you on top of it.

The biggest 'tell-tail' that you have something wrong in the body position and LOP was your cheek weld and firing hand wrist. You're not touching your cheek to the rest, you are laying the side of your face /head on it. Your ear is way up on it. (forward). We should be trying to get our cheek bone to hit the center of the cheek riser. Your cheek bone is no where near the cheek rest.

Watching your firing hand wrist in the last video, it looks kinked pretty hard and when you run the bolt its all wrist rather than movement from the elbow. This says the lop is too short. (Or bad body position) I see you wrest your wrist on the bag as well, I'm not sure about that one but getting higher will stop that from happening.

Here is the a screen shot of what I'm seeing that says lop is wrong. Head placement and lop can be fixed by first getting squared up, then checking this again to see if its different before actually changing your lop.

Here is what Frank's cheek weld looks like.

See a difference? Your nose should not be so far past the cheek riser if your body position and lop are set correctly. This will ultimately change your eye relief and scope placement.

Denys · Nov 24, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Thanks for the offer, I'll keep that in mind. I'm usually only get up there for dirt biking at Miller Hills or the NRL-X & Kof.28 miles matches at Rush Lake Range.

At 6'4", LOP might not be long enough at 14.5"

I should also have mentioned that I'm old school, which is only appropriate because I'm an old guy. I was taught, decades ago, that you determine your required LOP by measuring the inside distance from your arm bent at 90 to where the tip of your trigger finger would be as you press the trigger. I measured it again last night and that's 14.5". That was the distance I measured years ago when I set up my match rifle and this thread caused me to reconfirm both and they are dead nuts on. I guess my arms haven't grown or shrunk.

When shooting a prone match, I am on my left elbow on my mat and as such I need the rifle a little higher than other people. I can maneuver my Joy Pod with my left hand very easily and I use my right hand to load the rounds, pluck out the fired case (no ejector) and press the trigger. I have a right port, right bolt setup, none of this open port to my (pretty) face shit that some people like. (Yeah, I feel for sinister people, thankfully there are a lot of left hand actions now.)

I can stay on my left elbow for a long time, but if there's a break in the action (or conditions change,) I can roll on my left side easily enough and come right back up as needed.

1911Shootist · Nov 24, 2020

Thanks all for the input! A lot to digest for sure! Special thanks to @Precision Underground @CoryT @Dthomas3523 & @Jack Master for the detailed replies. I'm trying out the suggestions and seeing what works. Today was a trip to the local hardware stores for some new rings and a bit more trial fitting.

I think a bit more background is in order: I primarily shoot NRL22/dynamic 22 stuff. I'm typically within 80% of the winners in local and regional matches. I'm a former USPSA pistol shooter and 3 gunner, so I am far more accustomed to speed than rigidity. I'm trying to learn and not let my history bias me, but that happens to us all - I appreciate your patience in teaching the noob.

Corrections I've made and will try to implement in the next matches & practice:

Bump up the rear bag, and the bipod by proxy. Get more upright and straight on the gun. This did cause me to prefer the scope to be moved up and rear a slight amount. I'm buying mounts ~0.1" higher.
Disregard scope position as a function of height. LOP should should compensate for that, within reason. Keeping the 14-14.5" LOP for now.

Things I'm still struggling with:

Getting too straight on the gun. To do what many of you are prescribing, I need to position the gun such that:
1. Recoil pad is on my collar bone or upper pec. With 22's, I don't care about recoil, but with center-fire recoil and previous injuries, I know how little it takes to put a shoulder out of commission for months, if not years. With a 20lb gun, this likely doesn't matter, but with a <12lb gun, are folks actually shooting (on the clock) with spine parallel to bore, perpendicular to their collar bone? This seems dangerous to me.
2. Finding a repeatable cheek weld. If I straighten out and reduce pitch (chin up)/increase yaw, I find myself resting on jaw/muscle, much less stable than the cheek bone part of my skull, which is less susceptible to changing alignment due to jaw clenching/movement. I never struggled with finding the reticle in most positions with my previous setups (albeit could be due to conditioning) - slam my head down and the reticle was there.
Working the bolt - wrist break vs using forearm. I'd think the less mass in motion (breaking wrist to work the bolt), the less your position is disturbed. Moving forearm = moving leg of the tripod (due to ulna being attached to the pivot on the ground). If you can work the bolt with minimal positional disturbance, what does it matter how?

Am engineer, questions are exploratory and not combative...

CoryT · Nov 25, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Getting too straight on the gun. To do what many of you are prescribing, I need to position the gun such that:
Recoil pad is on my collar bone or upper pec. With 22's, I don't care about recoil, but with center-fire recoil and previous injuries, I know how little it takes to put a shoulder out of commission for months, if not years. With a 20lb gun, this likely doesn't matter, but with a <12lb gun, are folks actually shooting (on the clock) with spine parallel to bore, perpendicular to their collar bone? This seems dangerous to me. Hardly dangerous, I do it with a .375 CT and a .50 BMG, can't say there's any damage there, in fact I'd expect it to be worse positioned near the joint, dislocation/bursa damage may be possible then.

Finding a repeatable cheek weld. If I straighten out and reduce pitch (chin up)/increase yaw, I find myself resting on jaw/muscle, much less stable than the cheek bone part of my skull, which is less susceptible to changing alignment due to jaw clenching/movement. I never struggled with finding the reticle in most positions with my previous setups (albeit could be due to conditioning) - slam my head down and the reticle was there. It's possible you need the cheek rest moved L/R, or some padding added.

Working the bolt - wrist break vs using forearm. I'd think the less mass in motion (breaking wrist to work the bolt), the less your position is disturbed. Moving forearm = moving leg of the tripod (due to ulna being attached to the pivot on the ground). If you can work the bolt with minimal positional disturbance, what does it matter how? I'm of the opinion that less movement is better, but as long as the elbow remains planted the position remains in place.

Am engineer, questions are exploratory and not combative...

Precision Underground · Nov 25, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Thanks all for the input! A lot to digest for sure! Special thanks to @Precision Underground @CoryT @Dthomas3523 & @Jack Master for the detailed replies. I'm trying out the suggestions and seeing what works. Today was a trip to the local hardware stores for some new rings and a bit more trial fitting.

I think a bit more background is in order: I primarily shoot NRL22/dynamic 22 stuff. I'm typically within 80% of the winners in local and regional matches. I'm a former USPSA pistol shooter and 3 gunner, so I am far more accustomed to speed than rigidity. I'm trying to learn and not let my history bias me, but that happens to us all - I appreciate your patience in teaching the noob.

Corrections I've made and will try to implement in the next matches & practice:

Bump up the rear bag, and the bipod by proxy. Get more upright and straight on the gun. This did cause me to prefer the scope to be moved up and rear a slight amount. I'm buying mounts ~0.1" higher.

Disregard scope position as a function of height. LOP should should compensate for that, within reason. Keeping the 14-14.5" LOP for now.
Things I'm still struggling with:

Getting too straight on the gun. To do what many of you are prescribing, I need to position the gun such that:
Recoil pad is on my collar bone or upper pec. With 22's, I don't care about recoil, but with center-fire recoil and previous injuries, I know how little it takes to put a shoulder out of commission for months, if not years. With a 20lb gun, this likely doesn't matter, but with a <12lb gun, are folks actually shooting (on the clock) with spine parallel to bore, perpendicular to their collar bone? This seems dangerous to me.

Finding a repeatable cheek weld. If I straighten out and reduce pitch (chin up)/increase yaw, I find myself resting on jaw/muscle, much less stable than the cheek bone part of my skull, which is less susceptible to changing alignment due to jaw clenching/movement. I never struggled with finding the reticle in most positions with my previous setups (albeit could be due to conditioning) - slam my head down and the reticle was there.

Working the bolt - wrist break vs using forearm. I'd think the less mass in motion (breaking wrist to work the bolt), the less your position is disturbed. Moving forearm = moving leg of the tripod (due to ulna being attached to the pivot on the ground). If you can work the bolt with minimal positional disturbance, what does it matter how?

Am engineer, questions are exploratory and not combative...

I think what gets a lot of guys in the position you’re in is being told to set the rifle on target and then address the rifle. This is technically correct but for a lot of guys that leads them to set the rifle down and then basically mount up on top of the rifle. We want to set the rifle on target only as a GUIDE for where we want to connect ourselves to the ground before connecting the rifle to us.

IMO NPA is the most important fundamental. You can’t be on a NPA if the rifle is connected to the ground and then you are connected to the rifle. At that point the rifle is in a rest(on the bipod and rear bag) and you are laying on top of it. That’s not a NPA. Get yourself connected to the ground square/straight to the target by using the rifle as a guide. Get upright enough to so that you can address the rifle without leaning over or laying on it. Your back muscles are the key here IMO. Then bring the gun in front of your face. If you have the rifle on target when you started this should be easy as long as you are only using it as a guide and not trying to mount up on top of it. Again, connect yourself to the ground and then connect the rifle to you rather than connecting the rifle to the ground and then connecting yourself to the rifle. It sounds like semantics but there’s a big difference.

ladysh00ter · Dec 14, 2020

1911Shootist said:
Thanks all for the input! A lot to digest for sure! Special thanks to @Precision Underground @CoryT @Dthomas3523 & @Jack Master for the detailed replies. I'm trying out the suggestions and seeing what works. Today was a trip to the local hardware stores for some new rings and a bit more trial fitting.

I think a bit more background is in order: I primarily shoot NRL22/dynamic 22 stuff. I'm typically within 80% of the winners in local and regional matches. I'm a former USPSA pistol shooter and 3 gunner, so I am far more accustomed to speed than rigidity. I'm trying to learn and not let my history bias me, but that happens to us all - I appreciate your patience in teaching the noob.

Corrections I've made and will try to implement in the next matches & practice:

Bump up the rear bag, and the bipod by proxy. Get more upright and straight on the gun. This did cause me to prefer the scope to be moved up and rear a slight amount. I'm buying mounts ~0.1" higher.

Disregard scope position as a function of height. LOP should should compensate for that, within reason. Keeping the 14-14.5" LOP for now.
Things I'm still struggling with:

Getting too straight on the gun. To do what many of you are prescribing, I need to position the gun such that:
Recoil pad is on my collar bone or upper pec. With 22's, I don't care about recoil, but with center-fire recoil and previous injuries, I know how little it takes to put a shoulder out of commission for months, if not years. With a 20lb gun, this likely doesn't matter, but with a <12lb gun, are folks actually shooting (on the clock) with spine parallel to bore, perpendicular to their collar bone? This seems dangerous to me.

Finding a repeatable cheek weld. If I straighten out and reduce pitch (chin up)/increase yaw, I find myself resting on jaw/muscle, much less stable than the cheek bone part of my skull, which is less susceptible to changing alignment due to jaw clenching/movement. I never struggled with finding the reticle in most positions with my previous setups (albeit could be due to conditioning) - slam my head down and the reticle was there.

Working the bolt - wrist break vs using forearm. I'd think the less mass in motion (breaking wrist to work the bolt), the less your position is disturbed. Moving forearm = moving leg of the tripod (due to ulna being attached to the pivot on the ground). If you can work the bolt with minimal positional disturbance, what does it matter how?

Am engineer, questions are exploratory and not combative...

Also curious for those who are responding with advice, what disciplines are you shooting primarily? With PRS/NRL styles there is a lot of movement, even during prone stages, with wide target acquisitions and or multiple positions including prone and barricade work. That dynamic means sometimes you need the versatility of the game changer as a rear bag and maintaining height can be difficult. Also maintaining optimal position is not always possible with wide target transitions and multiple positions on the clock BUT starting out in the proper position is always ideal!

I have personally been working on NPA this season and its amazing how much it has "upped" my game. My prone position still needs a ton of work. Working on my new MPA chasis last night illustrated how little I know about ideal length of pull. Being a lady with average lady sized hands, even the standard grip seems to put my trigger finger out of the proper position with proper length of pull and *I think* proper body position (using the 90 degree arm bend technique).

Thanks for starting this thread- appreciate learning from all the responses as well!

Precision Underground · Dec 14, 2020

ladysh00ter said:
Also curious for those who are responding with advice, what disciplines are you shooting primarily? With PRS/NRL styles there is a lot of movement, even during prone stages, with wide target acquisitions and or multiple positions including prone and barricade work. That dynamic means sometimes you need the versatility of the game changer as a rear bag and maintaining height can be difficult. Also maintaining optimal position is not always possible with wide target transitions and multiple positions on the clock BUT starting out in the proper position is always ideal!

I have personally been working on NPA this season and its amazing how much it has "upped" my game. My prone position still needs a ton of work. Working on my new MPA chasis last night illustrated how little I know about ideal length of pull. Being a lady with average lady sized hands, even the standard grip seems to put my trigger finger out of the proper position with proper length of pull and *I think* proper body position (using the 90 degree arm bend technique).

Thanks for starting this thread- appreciate learning from all the responses as well!

I’d say using a GC as a rear bag is much less dynamic. It may be more forgiving if you don’t have good fundamentals but a smaller handheld bag is going to be much faster and more workable on the clock of your using a true NPA. Too many shooters are using the rear bag too much IMO. Too much rear bag equals a false NPA. People are trying to drive the rifle with a rear bag. You can get away with this and do fine woth a braked 6mm but it won’t translate to anything with recoil. Drive the rifle with your body. If I’m transitioning from left corner to right corner I’m going to throw my feet/hips to the left and aim my body at the target first. If you practice doing this it becomes natural to land in the right spot each time you shift.

ladysh00ter · Dec 14, 2020

Precision Underground said:
I’d say using a GC as a rear bag is much less dynamic. It may be more forgiving if you don’t have good fundamentals but a smaller handheld bag is going to be much faster and more workable on the clock of your using a true NPA. Too many shooters are using the rear bag too much IMO. Too much rear bag equals a false NPA. People are trying to drive the rifle with a rear bag. You can get away with this and do fine woth a braked 6mm but it won’t translate to anything with recoil. Drive the rifle with your body. If I’m transitioning from left corner to right corner I’m going to throw my feet/hips to the left and aim my body at the target first. If you practice doing this it becomes natural to land in the right spot each time you shift.

Not negating anything you suggested, just humorously I'm running a breaked 6mm and a .22lr so not much recoil to manage here

That said, I think fundamentals pay off in other ways so trying to form good habits rather than "get by."

slick19 · Dec 26, 2020

akmike47 said:
I'm 6'7(short asses), I finally ate the cost and got a chassis and run a 15"+ LOP, it's maxed out with a thicker pad. Never been more comfortable length wise, I need to work on my form however(need a shooting buddy that really knows their shit).

I got a big ass head and don't have problems with eye relief, maybe you need a longer LOP?View attachment 7480856

I agree here, I’m not nearly as tall as you (6’3”) but I always find that with my height I end up with a very long LOP. I guess my wrists bending less than normal for some reason contribute to wanting a longer LOP.
Anywho, point is, I have always found that for bipod belly shooting if anything I end up pulling the scope back pretty far(Eye relief doesn’t change, but longer LOP moved my head back). I’ve run into the opposite issue, the bell of a scope has hit the front of an extended rail before.

Also, your neck length would push the scope forward, not so much height. Or if you’re very battered to the rifle it would do the same thing (sling shooting for instance)pushing the scope much further forward.
I was an armored for a shooting team, and if I was setting up precision rifles for general use by team members. I always found that lining up the ocular with the tang of the action would get the eye relief pretty close, regardless of height. Then all I had to do was adjust LOP to fit most people. Obviously this isn’t ideal, but for a weekend training with 7 rifles and 20 people it worked pretty well.

OneMoreNoMore · Dec 27, 2020

First off I had the same issue as you and for me the sign I was doing something wrong was that I couldn’t shoot with muffs on and almost everyone at the range was. My head position was like yours on the stock and it kept pushing the muffs off my ear and made them useless.
I’m 6’4” like you and have a tall buddy with a lot more experience than I do and he noticed when shooting my gun he really had to lay on the comb to get a good sight picture. When he helped me realize the problems my flyers reduced dramatically. Frank talks about it a lot in his podcast about gun recoil taking the path of least resistance and with me laying on the stock the shots would go high and left.

Velayo, Satterlee, Frank, all have great videos of head and body position.
Compare your head to Velayo’s and also the position of your ear to the comb.

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