Really want to dabble in elr . Would be out to a max of 2400 yards . Would I be able to compete on steel elr challenges out to that distance with 338 lapua or just be pushing past the limits of its target ability. Def not worried about terminal effects just touching steel and paper.
- Thread starter Jab1134
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Do you already have a 338LM? If so, does your scope allow you to dial out to 2400 with your current load under current conditions?
If you are looking to build a brand new rifle to shoot ELR+....you may want to go in a different direction...or not....but if your goal is to compete with the rifle you already have....then 90% of the time...when people miss 2400yd targets....it isn't the guns fault...it is the shooter.
While 2400 yards is a loooooooooong poke....in today's world....it really isn't as far as you are thinking....ballistically. A good bullet, a good load, a a very knowledgable shooter...can get it done. I personally don't feel you need to 'upgrade' to something bigger and badder...until you start pushing past 2500 yards.
My opinion will differ from others...but this is what I think.
If you are looking to build a brand new rifle to shoot ELR+....you may want to go in a different direction...or not....but if your goal is to compete with the rifle you already have....then 90% of the time...when people miss 2400yd targets....it isn't the guns fault...it is the shooter.
While 2400 yards is a loooooooooong poke....in today's world....it really isn't as far as you are thinking....ballistically. A good bullet, a good load, a a very knowledgable shooter...can get it done. I personally don't feel you need to 'upgrade' to something bigger and badder...until you start pushing past 2500 yards.
My opinion will differ from others...but this is what I think.
Sorta along the lines of b2lee's comments... You might need to work the optics setup to make the transition out into the transonic. Do you handload? You have options WRT projectiles, so do you have the time to optimize? Getting to 2400 was straightforward with my 338LM with factory ammo. Handloads definitely perform better out of my rifle at all distances. Do you have a capable partner? Skilled team work is essential to be efficient. Do you have the accessories, like LRF, good spotting scope, ballistic calculator, chronograph? It helps if you have an ELR range relatively close to home.
I am a complete and utter newb (only my second attempt) but this ^^^^ 100%. THE most critical part of the the weapon is the nut behind the trigger!
Is that 338xc ???
Nope.
338 lapua improved?
I am looking for any info you may have on the 338 lapua improved. apparently my google fu sucks because i can't find shit on the chambering. so any info you may have will be more than helpful. thanks scott
www.snipershide.com Go to your search engine of choice and put in "sniper's hide [subject[" and you'll find stuff here. Without the snipers hide, the Wiki and others may have something useful.
For 338XC, look at David Tubb's stuff, also covered here.
No I don’t have a 338 lapua, I’m starting from scratch . I was thinking 338lm cause I’m a family man and the cost of loading lapua is in my budget .If I went up to 375 Chevy tac or something else it would be a big push to build a load and learn with so on the more cost effective side I thought 338 even thou it isnt cheap either . But reason behind why 338 . I was even considering 33xc but if 338 lapua is capable I would probably choose the saami spec lapua for availability of brass and what not and if it is just barely capable I always like a challenge
If you are starting from scratch, I wouldn’t do a 338 at this point. There are better bullets in both .30 and .375. Either do a .300 Norma Improved with 250 grain A-tips or a 37XC using the Cutting Edge Lazers. (These all use the same .580 bolt face as the 338 so you have the same action choices.)
compare with 338 norma ( shorter more efficient) and the 38xc offering. the truth of the matter is getting a great bullet to a high muzzle velocity and accurately. most of my loads in my gun guns are far less than max capable.
I thought i was building a challenge rifle based on a .891 bc 160gr 6.5mm bullet. the bullet never was released. So back to reality.
But I'll echo what has been said, its a matter of dailing enough and correct dope into your scope. thats the reason i stopped chasing the 2 mile club....these rigs have a prism in front of their scopes.
good luck and post what you decide on.
I thought i was building a challenge rifle based on a .891 bc 160gr 6.5mm bullet. the bullet never was released. So back to reality.
But I'll echo what has been said, its a matter of dailing enough and correct dope into your scope. thats the reason i stopped chasing the 2 mile club....these rigs have a prism in front of their scopes.
good luck and post what you decide on.
37xc is a thought I didn’t consider or realize it would fit with in that size action, but it’s definitely a consideration.
As for triplebulls response that your 338 is capable of doing it with factory ammo then my question asking if 338 lapua is able to compete at 2400 yards is answered and thanks for the extra gear info
As for triplebulls response that your 338 is capable of doing it with factory ammo then my question asking if 338 lapua is able to compete at 2400 yards is answered and thanks for the extra gear info
You might want to hold out for some of the new stuff @THEIS is making with his Hoplite Arms company.
He's going to have a lot of nice rifles coming off that would work well for the ELR stuff.
I disagree....you shouldn't have to spend more than $3600 on your scope
Of course you may have to start thinking about a Charlie TARAC as well.
As a few had previously mentioned, I would also recommend a 338 lapua improved. I am partially biased as I just ordered a 338LMAI. This being said, every cartridge that was mentioned here would also be outstanding.
I originally liked the 338 lapua round quite a bit. My only problem was I wanted to shoot 300 grain projectiles for the BC, and I wanted my impact velocity to be high enough inside of 1000 to allow reliable expansion. This brought me to the 338LMAI which fits my needs. Sometimes you can find 338 lapua brass labeled as “BBR” (Barnes ballistic research) on midway for dirt cheap. This brought my reloading expense down significantly.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with 338 LM for ELR. You can go a long ways with that standard chamber. And rebarreling to a 338LMAI wouldn’t be a big deal.
Good luck!
I originally liked the 338 lapua round quite a bit. My only problem was I wanted to shoot 300 grain projectiles for the BC, and I wanted my impact velocity to be high enough inside of 1000 to allow reliable expansion. This brought me to the 338LMAI which fits my needs. Sometimes you can find 338 lapua brass labeled as “BBR” (Barnes ballistic research) on midway for dirt cheap. This brought my reloading expense down significantly.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with 338 LM for ELR. You can go a long ways with that standard chamber. And rebarreling to a 338LMAI wouldn’t be a big deal.
Good luck!
I have a 338 Lapua and shoot to ELR distances as well as using it the the Gunsite XLR class on three occasions. Out past 1800 to 1900 yards the probability of a hit drops off and 2400 would be a stretch. Not saying won't be able to hit the target but will can you do it consistently. Even with 40 MOA rail on the rifle I was still having to hold over with an S&B 5-25x56 past 2000. There are other calibers which will get you there and beyond as mentioned above but its a big step up in terms of cost from both a rifle and reloading standpoint. Trust me I run a 375 SnipeTac and it was a big investment. The 338LM is a great round when used within its limitations and would probably start with that first prior to going to the bigger wildcats. One of the most critical things in ELR is having a properly calibrated rifle and ballistic software and that is a whole process in itself.
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I run a 300 grain Berger at 3150 fps from a 338 Allen Xpress (36" barrel and a 40 moa rail). I need 25 mils to get to 2400yds at 2000ft ASL. I can direct dial my scope to that distance, but I'm at the limit.
With a 338 Lapua (300 grain) at 2750 fps you are looking at approximately 23 mils @ 2,000yds and 34 mils at 2,400yds.
With a 250 at 2875 fps you would need 25 mils @2,000yds and 37 mils @ 2,400yds.
With a 338 Lapua (300 grain) at 2750 fps you are looking at approximately 23 mils @ 2,000yds and 34 mils at 2,400yds.
With a 250 at 2875 fps you would need 25 mils @2,000yds and 37 mils @ 2,400yds.
I have shot multiple ELR matches with my .338LM and have done very well placing in top 5 when shooting against 375's on up. The wind is the main limiting factor. Its just easier with the larger calibers. I have shot out to 2625 yards on 40x40 plate with good success. having said that my 375CT as you would expect is better.. The best bullet i have used is the Berger 300 hybrid OTM. I am running a 29in 1-9.3 twist on my AXMC and getting 2793 avg fps.
Hi,
285gr monolithics from Badlands Precision is going to be your friend with 338LM at any distance past 1 mile but as already mentioned....It gets exponentially harder every 100 yards past 1800, lol.
So to answer your question, yes the 338LM can "do" 2400 yards but it will allow you very very very little error budget as to where some of the other cartridges will allow you more error budget.
Sincerely,
Theis
285gr monolithics from Badlands Precision is going to be your friend with 338LM at any distance past 1 mile but as already mentioned....It gets exponentially harder every 100 yards past 1800, lol.
So to answer your question, yes the 338LM can "do" 2400 yards but it will allow you very very very little error budget as to where some of the other cartridges will allow you more error budget.
Sincerely,
Theis
I have $2400 into my scope and Charlie tarac And I regularly shoot at the OP’s distance and further.I disagree....you shouldn't have to spend more than $3600 on your scope
If I was thinking semi budget ELR it would be 338 Norma or lapua 32ish inch barrel and shoot 285 badlands bullets.
Depending on set up a good possibility of not needing a Charlie tarac at 2400
If you want to stick with Lapua boltface and 338 caliber, the 33xc with the 285 icbm2 will be as close to as good as you’re going to get.
Now, if you don’t want to limit yourself to that caliber but still stay with the smaller and cheaper actions, 37 or 41xc will be better in the wind generally. But a 300Norma is no slouch either
Now, if you don’t want to limit yourself to that caliber but still stay with the smaller and cheaper actions, 37 or 41xc will be better in the wind generally. But a 300Norma is no slouch either
So Geno
How would you rank the 33XC with the ICBM2 against a 300 Norma? What bullet would you recommend for the 300 Norma?
I’m not Geno, but I must point out the Hornady 250 grain A-tip has a G7 BC of 0.442, which will outperform any .338 bullet. Definitely what I’d use in a 300 Norma (and why I think 338 isn’t the way to go right now).
The norma with 250s with a .878g1 would be around 3000fps
The XC with the 285 with a 1.010g1 would be around 3200fps
On paper, the XC has a clear advantage. Only reasons to step down to the norma would be to try and reduce costs, mag feed, and fit in a 30cal suppressor. Other than that, if you want to compete in light class, the XC is hard to beat ballistically
The XC with the 285 with a 1.010g1 would be around 3200fps
On paper, the XC has a clear advantage. Only reasons to step down to the norma would be to try and reduce costs, mag feed, and fit in a 30cal suppressor. Other than that, if you want to compete in light class, the XC is hard to beat ballistically
Yeah, the atip doesn’t beat any 338 bullet.
Even the 265gr icbm2 from badlands will have a higher bc than the 250atip.
Just to throw a curveball in here, maybe wind is the biggest factor as is bullet splash on misses, but why not use a hotrod 7mm or 25 cal? If I remember correctly the guys shooting 25 cal at one of the shoots this year did pretty well. I'm sure they are pretty good as far as the monkey behind the gun goes.
It has a higher G7 BC than the 338 A-tip, higher than the Berger 300 grain hybrid (or any other Berger 338 bullet).
As for Badlands, they aren’t even publishing G7 BCs, which makes me really question their ballistics knowledge. And I wouldn’t believe any BC data from a small company without independent verification. Making these measurements accurately is difficult and resource intensive. There is a long history of exaggerated claims from solid bullets that don’t measure up in reality.
When I said any, I really meant it doesn’t beat all of them. I know it beats most.
As for your assessment of badlands and their bullets, you’re really showing your ignorance about them and their bullets. I personally use their 285 and use a 1.040g1 at my speed to make hits line up with my solver. I personally use their 350gr and their stated bc is exactly on also. I’d say there isn’t many, if any, smarter than Jason at Badlands when it comes to bullet design.
I am definitely ignorant of Badlands Precision, in that I have no specific knowledge of their products and no experience with them. I’m not saying I do and I’m not saying there is anything wrong with them.
However, it is strange to me to only offer a G1 BC in 2020. The G1 model is a very poor fit for these kinds of bullets. I would argue that if you are trying to make first round hits in ELR, even the G7 model is suboptimal and I’d much rather have something where a custom drag model is available for AB.
And by the same token, I’m generally skeptical when the only source of a BC is the manufacturer.
Surely you’d agree though that if starting from scratch, and you could choose between 338 LM, 33XC, and 37XC, the 375s will outperform the 338s?
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Why don't you estimate the G7 for yourself. Badlands isn't going to hold your hand for you.
JBM - Calculations - Drag Function Conversion
www.jbmballistics.com D
Deleted member 10043
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I've noticed the Blackjack still has to deal with wind, splashes, and misses.
I’m not interested in estimates, only reliable measurements. That’s the problem.Why don't you estimate the G7 for yourself. Badlands isn't going to hold your hand for you.
JBM - Calculations - Drag Function Conversion
I am seriously thinking about 33XC.
I am spinning up two barrels for my AXMC which now is set up for 338 LM. One barrel will be a 30 cal short action type with an optimized chamber to fire the heavier 30 cal rounds like the 185 grain and above Bergers. I still really enjoy shooting 308/7.62, especially these days.
The other barrel is something that will extend my reach beyond what the 338 LM can provide. I don't see any advantage of the 300 Norma. Cost and mag feed capability are no biggies for me. The 33XC appears perfect for this purpose.
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Dude, you still have to do the work. You want reliable start with the estimate and true up by actually shooting the rifle. If they gave you a G7 you would complain it is wrong once you started trying to hit a target.
The problem is that none of the metrics G1, G7 or CDM are 100% accurate. They all require truing. If you believe that any measured parameter can accurately characterize a bullet's flight dynamics once transonic, then I would have to disagree. I use CDM all the time for the cartridges I shoot and it is no better or worse at predicting the trajectory than G1 or G7. I still have to true using the Kestrel's DSF routine.
You also forget to mention that the solver algorithm is as large or the largest contributor to the trajectory prediction. Coldbore or TRASOL using G1 values consistently provides more accurate correction values than AB running CDMs on a Kestrel until DSF is engaged. Even then, I find it easier to tweak Coldbore than the Kestrel to provide uniform trajectory curves. The only reasons I don't run Coldbore in the field is because the Kestrel provides wind data, it is inherently rugged by design and its overall convenience.
Just my 2 cents
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I have 3 friends building 33xc on dta’s as we speak because they’ve seen what my Carnie will do against the 375s. I say go for it! Brass is the only thing that might keep me from building one but guys running them don’t seem to have problems with it
I actually don’t agree. Run the numbers.
a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing. But, in this day and age, putting out bad bc numbers is stupid. People find out.
Now as for g1 not working, you could have fooled me. TRASOL swallows a g1 and spits out accurate drops and wind calls. Seems to work for me
Hi,
The BC could be measured in banana units as long as each projectile was consistent to the 5.146 banana and the software can account and calculate based on banana units then who cares....
G1, G7, CDM, banana......they are all a starting point.
I will bet you a box of 100 Badlands precision 215gr for 300NM that we can weigh out 500 of the Badlands 215gr and then weigh out 500 Amax and it will NOT be the Badlands that deviates more.
BC numbers do not mean anything IF the projectile itself deviates in weight, length, etc etc
Sincerely,
Theis
The BC could be measured in banana units as long as each projectile was consistent to the 5.146 banana and the software can account and calculate based on banana units then who cares....
G1, G7, CDM, banana......they are all a starting point.
I will bet you a box of 100 Badlands precision 215gr for 300NM that we can weigh out 500 of the Badlands 215gr and then weigh out 500 Amax and it will NOT be the Badlands that deviates more.
BC numbers do not mean anything IF the projectile itself deviates in weight, length, etc etc
Sincerely,
Theis
D
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One might find it surprising that some popular bullets prefer G6 or G8, lol
I don’t. It’s whatever ES tactical uses
Who needs to mag feed for 2400yards besides maybe snipers? I can eject a round, reload before I see the impact at 2400 while single feeding
That's how I felt when I was running the Sako to 2K yards.
I know, I am just being lazy! I don't like having to have multiple loads with me and everything that goes with it. If I can find a solid load, that works for that system I would prefer to stick with it and run it.
Of course I am still tempted by these.
Do you prefer the Badlands over Warner Flatlines?
I cannot speak for Geno, but have some experience with the Warner Flatlines. I’ve shot a couple hundred of their 255g .338s with great success, but I was buying all of mine before I knew of Badlands. Not even sure if they were around at that time. The Flatlines are considerably more expensive than the Flatlines, so when I get back into some ELR, I’ll be trying out the Badlands projos.