Berger 215gr 300-WM ... Why so long?

rustyinbend · Dec 3, 2020

I wanted to try some heavier bullets, and I have some friends that swear by Berger for low SD's and great ballistics. Found 5 boxes of Berger 300-WM 215gr Hybrid OTM (Part #65-70100), and bought them to try out. When I pulled out a round to inspect it, I realized they were way longer than my standard ammo (Hornady ELD-M 195gr). So long ... that they don't fit in the magazines I use in my MPA 300-WMBA rifle. They do, however, fit in my Barrett MRAD magazines ... also 300-WM.

So here are my two questions:

(1) What's up with this ammo that is clearly longer than the SAMI spec for 300-WM (3.340") ... the round is 3.60". How can they represent it as 300-WM?
(2) If it chambers OK in my Barrett MRAD, is there any reason why I shouldn't use it? I mean ... it's "sunk cost" so I'd like to at least shoot it for fun even if I don't buy anymore..

I'm interested in #2 because I'd like to see if decreasing the distance to the lands actually "improves" accuracy, but I'd throw it away if anything about that would be dangerous or damaging to my Barrett MRAD.

Anybody have any experience with this particular round? Am I OK to shoot it as long as it fits in the magazine and the bolt closes?

Left is Hornady, right is Berger. BTW ... the case on the Berger is perfect. It's the bullet that's hung like a horse.

Kickin45 · Dec 3, 2020

Just ordered some 200’s and 220’s for my DT SRS, so I’m curious as well.
Following....

tlsmith22 · Dec 3, 2020

So you can get more powder in it...lol

Seriously my 215 load with VV N570 is a compressed load and is right at 3100 FPS.

gnochi · Dec 3, 2020

Briefly, the SAAMI length is a huge handicap of 300WM. It was developed back before we knew what supersonic aerodynamics look like. True SAAMI spec 300WM is crippled in comparison to modern 6.5 Creedmoor, either in bullet choice or in seating depth, for any application but taking large game at relatively short ranges. Most of the "good" 300WM ammo out there just ignores the length restriction.

As long as doesn't exceed SAAMI pressure limits in the minimum SAAMI chamber, which translates to "it's sold by a reputable company as 300WM without an old-guns warning", you're good. I think those two cartridges in the picture probably either have very similar distances to the lands, or the one on the left is pushed down way below the shoulder and the lands distance is off the charts huge.

It looks like the 300WMBA comes with a plastic magazine, which in AICS LA will accept up to 3.50 COAL. Get some of the MDT AICS 5-round 300WM 3.715" magazines, which will fit just fine and accept 3.625" COAL.

As rfurman on Rokslide put it "The OAL for a 300 Win with a 215 boat tail junction seat at the neck/shoulder junction is right at 3.7". It will fit in a standard Remington 700 mag box. I know this comment always ruffles feathers but I can not see the point of shooting 180s in a 300. Shoot the 215. If you want 180s shoot a 7mm."

Bandit320 · Dec 3, 2020

The Berger I have are almost 3.7” and shoot great out of my Rem 783 with a Criterion barrel. I single load them.

Alpine 338 · Dec 3, 2020

I load the 215-Hybrids in my 300WM at 3.60", and they are awesome! Use standard AICS LA magazines.

Jscb1b · Dec 3, 2020

I run the Berger 215 ammo in a r700. It is in a W3 with CIP mags. If it chambers shoot it. That hybrid bullet is long in the nose. If you don't want to shoot it, maybe we can make a deal.

White Death · Dec 3, 2020

I've used both the 215s and 230s in my MRAD.
Because of the weight and length of the bullet, coupled with the desire to fill more powder, the coal is longer than specs. All their technical info explicitly states that outright so people are aware that they don't fit all magazines.
I shoot them both from an MRAD as well and they shoot better than any other off the shelf ammo. Unfortunately Berger discontinued them both as loaded ammo. Federal has rebranded the 215s as Federal gold medal berger but they don't plan to release 230s which perform better for me.
I hope someone else will make some loaded 230s since I don't reload. They perform amazing and no issues with the MRAD. Shoot em and enjoy. The ballistics are superior to anything else out there that I've tried.
Added bonus is they extend barrel life as well.

DangerRanger · Dec 3, 2020

rustyinbend said:
So here are my two questions:

(1) What's up with this ammo that is clearly longer than the SAMI spec for 300-WM (3.340") ... the round is 3.60". How can they represent it as 300-WM?

(2) If it chambers OK in my Barrett MRAD, is there any reason why I shouldn't use it? I mean ... it's "sunk cost" so I'd like to at least shoot it for fun even if I don't buy anymore..

I'm interested in #2 because I'd like to see if decreasing the distance to the lands actually "improves" accuracy, but I'd throw it away if anything about that would be dangerous or damaging to my Barrett MRAD.

View attachment 7490796

1. Because they put a disclaimer with it saying it’s longer than saami

“This ammunition is for single-load use only and for competitive shooting applications. It will not function through a factory rifle magazine. The overall length is extended to improve accuracy with aftermarket target rifles that do not utilize a box magazine

2. Should be fine. Berger 215s are just super long in the nose bullets. If they put it to Saami length the bullet would just fall into the case. My last 300 win mag was 3.670 to the lands with a 215. Those at 3.6 would still be 70 off.
I’d shoot them, they just don’t fit In saami mags.

vh20 · Dec 3, 2020

tlsmith22 said:
So you can get more powder in it...lol

Seriously my 215 load with VV N570 is a compressed load and is right at 3100 FPS.

What is that charge weight?

rustyinbend · Dec 3, 2020

gnochi said:
Briefly, the SAAMI length is a huge handicap of 300WM. It was developed back before we knew what supersonic aerodynamics look like. True SAAMI spec 300WM is crippled in comparison to modern 6.5 Creedmoor, either in bullet choice or in seating depth, for any application but taking large game at relatively short ranges. Most of the "good" 300WM ammo out there just ignores the length restriction.

As long as doesn't exceed SAAMI pressure limits in the minimum SAAMI chamber, which translates to "it's sold by a reputable company as 300WM without an old-guns warning", you're good. I think those two cartridges in the picture probably either have very similar distances to the lands, or the one on the left is pushed down way below the shoulder and the lands distance is off the charts huge.

It looks like the 300WMBA comes with a plastic magazine, which in AICS LA will accept up to 3.50 COAL. Get some of the MDT AICS 5-round 300WM 3.715" magazines, which will fit just fine and accept 3.625" COAL.

As rfurman on Rokslide put it "The OAL for a 300 Win with a 215 boat tail junction seat at the neck/shoulder junction is right at 3.7". It will fit in a standard Remington 700 mag box. I know this comment always ruffles feathers but I can not see the point of shooting 180s in a 300. Shoot the 215. If you want 180s shoot a 7mm."

Great info ... thanks. I'm gonna feed it to my 300-WM Barrett MRAD barrel and see what it does at some ELR distances. Been doing a little research today, and learned a lot about how to seat reloaded bullets to minimize jump and get them closer to the lands. Good stuff.

rustyinbend · Dec 3, 2020

Jmcmath said:
1. Because they put a disclaimer with it saying it’s longer than saami

“This ammunition is for single-load use only and for competitive shooting applications. It will not function through a factory rifle magazine. The overall length is extended to improve accuracy with aftermarket target rifles that do not utilize a box magazine

2. Should be fine. Berger 215s are just super long in the nose bullets. If they put it to Saami length the bullet would just fall into the case. My last 300 win mag was 3.670 to the lands with a 215. Those at 3.6 would still be 70 off.
I’d shoot them, they just don’t fit In saami mags.

Thanks !!! I'm learning a lot today. This was very helpful. I think I'm limiting myself given my magazine choice in my MPA. Time to get different magazines, and shoot/reload longer OAL's.

BCX · Dec 6, 2020

If the Berger 215 factory load doesn't pan out, PM me and i will take it off your hands.

nick338 · Dec 6, 2020

You must have an old lot of ammo. Berger is not loading them longer than 3.340" now.

vh20 · Dec 6, 2020

@tlsmith22
How much N570 does it take to get at 215 up to 3100 from a 300 WM?
Thanks

azbiker · Dec 6, 2020

These rounds cycle well and are very accurate in my AXMC with a factory AI barrel.

rustyinbend · Dec 7, 2020

BCX said:
If the Berger 215 factory load doesn't pan out, PM me and i will take it off your hands.

Shot it yesterday out of my MRAD ... it was super-accurate. Sub-half-MOA at 100 yards. Still testing, but so far, I like these (now discontinued) cartridges.

Hound Dog · Dec 7, 2020

I use those same Berger 215's in my 300WM, it is a remmie 700 LA with a 24 inch bartlin barrel, a manners stock using the 3.715 length mags. They fill the mag up, but function, feed and shoot awesome. My rifle loves them, I will take them off your hands if you don't want them.

FCS · Dec 7, 2020

rustyinbend said:
I wanted to try some heavier bullets, and I have some friends that swear by Berger for low SD's and great ballistics. Found 5 boxes of Berger 300-WM 215gr Hybrid OTM (Part #65-70100), and bought them to try out. When I pulled out a round to inspect it, I realized they were way longer than my standard ammo (Hornady ELD-M 195gr). So long ... that they don't fit in the magazines I use in my MPA 300-WMBA rifle. They do, however, fit in my Barrett MRAD magazines ... also 300-WM.

So here are my two questions:

(1) What's up with this ammo that is clearly longer than the SAMI spec for 300-WM (3.340") ... the round is 3.60". How can they represent it as 300-WM?
(2) If it chambers OK in my Barrett MRAD, is there any reason why I shouldn't use it? I mean ... it's "sunk cost" so I'd like to at least shoot it for fun even if I don't buy anymore..

I'm interested in #2 because I'd like to see if decreasing the distance to the lands actually "improves" accuracy, but I'd throw it away if anything about that would be dangerous or damaging to my Barrett MRAD.

Anybody have any experience with this particular round? Am I OK to shoot it as long as it fits in the magazine and the bolt closes?

Left is Hornady, right is Berger. BTW ... the case on the Berger is perfect. It's the bullet that's hung like a horse.

View attachment 7490796

Short answer is 3.370” OAL for 300 WM is because that is mag box limit of Win 70.
Rem 700 mag box will allow 3.650” OAL.
Push a 215 hybrid to 3.370 and bearing / ogive junction is at or below neck.
AICS 300 WM mag is 3.650” that fits in magazine.
CIP AICS 300 WM is 3.790” that fits in magazine, working from memory so might be off little.

Steel head · Dec 7, 2020

rustyinbend said:
I wanted to try some heavier bullets, and I have some friends that swear by Berger for low SD's and great ballistics. Found 5 boxes of Berger 300-WM 215gr Hybrid OTM (Part #65-70100), and bought them to try out. When I pulled out a round to inspect it, I realized they were way longer than my standard ammo (Hornady ELD-M 195gr). So long ... that they don't fit in the magazines I use in my MPA 300-WMBA rifle. They do, however, fit in my Barrett MRAD magazines ... also 300-WM.

So here are my two questions:

(1) What's up with this ammo that is clearly longer than the SAMI spec for 300-WM (3.340") ... the round is 3.60". How can they represent it as 300-WM?
(2) If it chambers OK in my Barrett MRAD, is there any reason why I shouldn't use it? I mean ... it's "sunk cost" so I'd like to at least shoot it for fun even if I don't buy anymore..

I'm interested in #2 because I'd like to see if decreasing the distance to the lands actually "improves" accuracy, but I'd throw it away if anything about that would be dangerous or damaging to my Barrett MRAD.

Anybody have any experience with this particular round? Am I OK to shoot it as long as it fits in the magazine and the bolt closes?

Left is Hornady, right is Berger. BTW ... the case on the Berger is perfect. It's the bullet that's hung like a horse.

View attachment 7490796

Bigger high BC bullets have longer front ends.
This is a 190 and 168 7mm with a mark at the beginning of the ogive( point that contacts lands first)

tlsmith22 · Dec 7, 2020

vh20 said:
@tlsmith22
How much N570 does it take to get at 215 up to 3100 from a 300 WM?
Thanks

Depends on which brass you use. I tried several and settled on ADG brass. It takes 81.6 grains in ADG brass and its a compressed load. Best I recall it took 83 in SIG brass. What is odd to me is it has way better SDs with standard LRP instead of magnums.

Lost_Phil · Dec 19, 2020

I am building a 300 Win Mag and this very subject is one of the things that I researched since I want to shoot the heavy 215 VLD's on up.

The first is the magazine size.......
Magpul, 3.715 Outside length, with a COAL of 3.500
MDT/AM (Normal Metal Mag size, SAAMI) 3.715 Outside, COAL of 3.615
AM (Intermediate Size) 3.775 Outside, COAL of 3.675
MDT/AM/AI (CIP) 3.850 Outside, COAL of 3.750

The second is barrel free bore, which most manufactures are around 3.270 (Estimated), which can be too tight for some of the longer bullets. So some barrel manufactures now offer 300WM with a free bore of 3.600 and 3.700 to allow for the longer CBTO of the VLD's and Hybrids.

One other thing is the chassis/stock magazine length. I have found that KRG and the MDT ACC chassis will take the CIP 3.850 magazine lengths since they list it. As for other manufactures, if they do not list it, so I would ask. It might save you some coin and pain down the road.

LastShot300 · Dec 19, 2020

tlsmith22 said:
So you can get more powder in it...lol

Seriously my 215 load with VV N570 is a compressed load and is right at 3100 FPS.

What´s your barrel length? And what´s your load?

Habu64 · Dec 26, 2020

As others have stated, there's a lot of room to play with on the 300WM loads. I run Berger 210 VLD's at 3.565 and they are an absolute hammer.

FCS · Dec 27, 2020

Lost_Phil said:
I am building a 300 Win Mag and this very subject is one of the things that I researched since I want to shoot the heavy 215 VLD's on up.

The first is the magazine size.......
Magpul, 3.715 Outside length, with a COAL of 3.500
MDT/AM (Normal Metal Mag size, SAAMI) 3.715 Outside, COAL of 3.615
AM (Intermediate Size) 3.775 Outside, COAL of 3.675
MDT/AM/AI (CIP) 3.850 Outside, COAL of 3.750

The second is barrel free bore, which most manufactures are around 3.270 (Estimated), which can be too tight for some of the longer bullets. So some barrel manufactures now offer 300WM with a free bore of 3.600 and 3.700 to allow for the longer CBTO of the VLD's and Hybrids.

One other thing is the chassis/stock magazine length. I have found that KRG and the MDT ACC chassis will take the CIP 3.850 magazine lengths since they list it. As for other manufactures, if they do not list it, so I would ask. It might save you some coin and pain down the road.

I find most of your post to be very confusing.
Without a reamer drawing to clarify some dimensions, you are either grossly misunderstanding or misrepresenting some dimensions.
SAAMI 300 WM chamber will nominally have a 215 Berger hybrid touching lands at 3.710” OAL.

Pick bullet.
Make dummy rd with bullet in “ideal” position
Determine needed freebore
Find correct magazine system to allow for needed OAL
Buy reamer with needed dimensions.
Build rifle.

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Berger 215gr 300-WM ... Why so long?

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