I was watching some of the awards and looking at the pictures on the PRS facebook page and looking at the scores at Practicescore but I was hoping to read some commentary. I was surprised there was not more talk or insight to the competition. Even the PRS website seemed to have little information. I am an average shooter but I still like reading and learning from the high level shooters. Maybe I am just not looking in the right place.
- Thread starter vivdav
- Start date
What are you looking for specifically? The targets were small. Weather was good Saturday, abnormally calm winds. Yesterday was a suck fest for weather with snow, low visibility and wind.
We shot all day and had the banquet last night, and today everyone is travelling home. You'll see more in the coming weeks as people put stuff together, but the finale isn't like most other matches as people are vying for placement, content gathering is a minor secondary thing. There were several media people capturing content, but again it takes time to put together.
We shot all day and had the banquet last night, and today everyone is travelling home. You'll see more in the coming weeks as people put stuff together, but the finale isn't like most other matches as people are vying for placement, content gathering is a minor secondary thing. There were several media people capturing content, but again it takes time to put together.
Very good. As an average local shooter I am amazed at the level of competition with so few points separating the top shooters and how quickly missing just a few points takes the shooter down in the standings. I know a few of the shooters from South Texas that were there and how good they are and find it interesting to see how they did and how good they are. I guess it is like everything from local sports to college sports to the pros. Pretty big separation. I look forward to improving my personal skills and hit percentages but it looks like the amount of money and time spent to get to the high levels goes on forever. Fun sport. Like they say "kind of like golf but for men"
It was a good match to pick a champion. Sideways blowing snow the 2nd day. There was about 8 times on day 2 that I wasn't sure if I was aiming at the target or just a random spot close to the target because visibility was so bad. The rest of the time visibility was fine and you just had to deal with the wind, wet, and cold.
The targets were small. Many of the targets were .3 mils wide with some at about .2 mils wide.
Compared to prior years the 2020 finale had longer stage times. The stages were all 2 minutes instead of 90 seconds. The positions were very solid with no wiggly props at all. There was a lot of prone or modified prone. Lots of troop lines. There no tripods allowed for rear support and they really weren't needed because the props to shoot off of were so solid. Despite the longer stage times pros still timed out a couple times.
Matt Brousseau showed up in top form after barely shooting all year and reminded us all that when he is at the top of his game there is no one on his level. Matt missed 8 shots on day 1 and 8 shots on day 2. Apparently the wind and conditions don't affect his hit ratio like the rest of us. For comparison, I missed 6 shots day 1 and 20 shots day 2.
The targets were small. Many of the targets were .3 mils wide with some at about .2 mils wide.
Compared to prior years the 2020 finale had longer stage times. The stages were all 2 minutes instead of 90 seconds. The positions were very solid with no wiggly props at all. There was a lot of prone or modified prone. Lots of troop lines. There no tripods allowed for rear support and they really weren't needed because the props to shoot off of were so solid. Despite the longer stage times pros still timed out a couple times.
Matt Brousseau showed up in top form after barely shooting all year and reminded us all that when he is at the top of his game there is no one on his level. Matt missed 8 shots on day 1 and 8 shots on day 2. Apparently the wind and conditions don't affect his hit ratio like the rest of us. For comparison, I missed 6 shots day 1 and 20 shots day 2.
It sounds like I really need to practice on smaller targets. I do a lot of 2 moa targets which is way too big. It sounds like practicing with paper gives better feedback as to hit size. Why did Pynch get dq'd
I was in the squad with Jon Pynch. We were on the next to last stage of the whole match. It was a stage with a pile of rocks. You had to choose 5 rocks and shoot 1 shot each at 2 targets that were in different location and ranges. Time was a big issue on this stage. I did not see it personally but apparently Jon closed his bolt after getting in position on one of the rocks and inadvertently bumped the trigger at the same time. It was either his coat or his finger that bumped the trigger and it sent a round down range when he didn't intend to. All ND's are a match DQ at the finale and most other 2 day matches. It really sucked after him having braved the elements all day. He took it like a man. He said it's the first time it ever happened to him. It could happen to all of us so always remember to be on target when you close your bolt and don't sky load a round.
Very few others would, probably none, you tube is free.
If you're into super squads go to a match and walk with them.
Otherwise..........................spend the money on ammo and practice!
Are you hitting 2moa plates 90% of the time for most all positions?
If not, they aren’t too small. Training properly is a progressive endeavor. You don’t get better by missing a 1moa dot all day. You get better by starting large and incrementally decreasing things like target size and time.
He shot flipping amazing. The production division is the dumbest division there is next to tactical. I hope this whole situation brings that to light.
Were you at the finale? I see you mention PRS a lot and I'm wondering if we have ever shot together.
all about those Ruger sponsorship dollars
I was not. Maybe next year. Living all the way down here in the bottom of Tx makes it pretty inefficient economically. There’s only 2 matches we don’t have to fly or drive 12+ hours. Unfortunately.
We have 3 centerfire matches per month down here within a few hours and several single day prize/trophy matches within 6hrs a year. So, hard to justify the travel with so many options here.
Hey David. This is David and I shoot with Zack a bunch.
Hey Dave this is David and I shoot with Zack a bunch. You and I have shot together several times. We have been practicing 2 moa and smaller most of the time hitting 8 of 10 usually
Yup...SK ftw once again
Here is the PRS response, fwiw. It’s just another mess they find themselves in, right or wrong.
PRS Members,
We’d like to take this opportunity to provide you with additional information and clarification regarding the committee’s decision to move Matt Alwine’s scores from the Production Division to the Open Division at the 2020 PRS Pro Series Finale. There has been some misinformation spread on social media so it is important to inform our members regarding the committee’s processes including what the committee discussed and ultimately decided in a 25 to 4 vote.
As previously reported, the day following the finale it was brought to light that the new rifle shot by Matt Alwine unfortunately did not meet the PRS rule requirements for Production division. Upon first look the rifle appeared to meet the production rifle requirements in terms of price and components. However, the rifle in question was never published/listed on the manufacture’s website and was recently announced solely on the gunsmith’s personal Facebook page and Instagram account on December 5th. The manufacturer does not have a website. PRS rules state the rifle cannot exceed $2500 as listed on the “company’s website” and any production rifle must be publicly available. The portion of the rule that states "as listed on company’s website" is the forcing function that is in place to prevent singularly produced rifles from being authorized as production guns. Without a publicly available listing on a website, the PRS has no enforcement power to authorize production guns. A website listing is important for consistent and fair enforcement of the division. A single social media post on a personal account is impossible to define as “publicly” available as stated in our rules. The gunsmith disagrees with the decision, but he understands it and the importance of this rule.
Since the committee has reached a decision on the matter, we want to share with our membership how that decision was made, what points were discussed among Pro Series MD’s from across the country, and address some of the mistruths that are now floating around social media. First, we want all to be aware of who is on the committee. The committee is composed of all 2020-21 Pro Series MD’s. All MD’s that had a major stake in the game such as other production division shooters did not partake in the vote. Each MD did their own analysis of the situation and the PRS rules, discussed it with their peers and shooters, and came to their own conclusions. Every single point that has been brought up on social media has also been discussed in depth within the committee and we’d like to share with you the thoughts of the majority of MD’s as the decision was determined so that you can understand our processes and we can continue to instill trust and faith in how challenging decisions are made. No one took any joy in making this decision, but the right decision has been made after looking at the situation from every angle.
Here are a few of the most important items that were discussed among committee members -
Arbitration:
Some have suggested that because the matter was not arbitrated by the shooter and MD before the close of the match and the publishing of the scores, that the standings should remain unchanged.
PRS Rule Regarding Arbitration
3.1.8 The MD is the ultimate authority of Match Rules, Safety, and Enforcement. Any and all violations, penalties and enforcement should be dealt with thoroughly and in an expeditious manner. MDs may use of statements from RO’s, shooters, and spectators. Once the stage/match arbitration period has ended, the rulings made by the MD are final.
In this case – the committee agrees that the matter was never presented to the MD and thus was never arbitrated and a ruling was never made by the MD during the match. This is similar to another situation that the PRS committee had to address earlier in the season regarding Patrick Proctor. The accusations against Patrick were arbitrated by the PRS committee after the close of multiple matches because the details were not known during those events. The same is true for this situation, the details were unknown during the event. Arbitration is generally in place to allow for the review of errors in scoring and procedural faults before the close of a match. The PRS will always reserve the right, as many other sports, to address situations that arise after the close of an event. We cannot allow rules to be broken, simply because no one knew about it before the scores were posted.
Matt’s rifle was discussed on Friday, prior to the start of the finale:
It was absolutely not discussed on Friday. The only thing that was mentioned in passing on Friday, as discussed within our committee, was the build of the gun. There was no mention of the absence of a website listing and the fact that no other gun existed beside his. If this information would have been presented by the shooter, he would have been told on the spot that it did not qualify as a production gun. The shooter had every opportunity to inform the PRS or MD and he did not. The gunsmith or shooter could have called and asked for an exception prior to the finale. The exception would have been denied, but he would have had time to decide to shoot a different rifle. We receive weekly questions from PRS shooters, trying to play by the rules, regarding what does and does not qualify for the production division. They are answered within 24 hours. Matt chose not to ask any questions regarding the qualification of his new rifle. Every other production manufacturer and shooter is in line with the rules. The decision the committee made here is much larger than the shooter (and we hate to take from his accomplishments), but it affects how we apply the rules and maintain a culture of fairness. If we allow exceptions to what we put in black and white, then the shooters are free to interpret rules as they see fit. Allowing this to fly under the radar, which some have suggested we allow, would have been a detriment to the sport and would undermine the faith in the organization.
Doug Koenig’s rifle and the rule of “Publicly Available”:
The details surrounding the rifle Doug Koenig shot at the finale have also been misconstrued on social media. The facts are the facts. Ruger has 500+ orders for the exact rifle that Doug shot, 13 plus guns are in shooters hands and the rifle is posted on their website for distributors to buy. It was available for purchase by distributors prior to the finale. This was again reverified by the PRS this week, because we knew this was coming based on conversations with Matt. Ruger does not and has never have sold direct. The public cannot call Ruger and purchase a firearm of any type from them directly. This misinformation campaign is sad and intellectually dishonest. The "publicly available" portion of the rule is intended to avoid one off production guns. The model that Doug shot will never be a one-off gun and is in production by Ruger, a well-known and respected production rifle manufacturer. The website rule is in place to keep manufacturers honest, track specs, show commitment to build, etc. We will follow the letter of the rules as written within the intent as written two years ago. Friends, buddies, and sponsor relationships should not and will have zero bearing on our work.
Our primary responsibility is to ensure that the rules are followed and applied fairly to all competitors. Rules serve an especially useful, indeed essential purpose – they act as guidelines so that we all know what to expect from others, and how to conduct our competitions. Our sport would simply not be able to exist without rules, there would be no meaning to our competitions. It would have been much easier for the PRS and the committee to allow Matt to retain his production standings and it would have saved the committee over 50 hours of time this week. But the fabric of PRS depends on upholding the rules we have all agreed to follow, it is our culture and it defines who we are. There would be no sportsmanship and chaos would ensue without them. We owe it to our members and to the sport to do the right thing and uphold the rules, even when it costs us valuable time and it has the potential to incite damaging posts on social media to your sport.
Since the committee’s decision was made final, Matt has posted a few unbecoming statements on social media regarding the outcomes of the finale, some of which have been deleted. He also posted along with a few others a website listing for his rifle that did not exist prior to this situation being examined in an attempt to undermine the fact that the rules had been broken. The rifle builder has been very clear that he does not have a website and that the rifle was never listed on any manufacturer’s website. He has also attempted to suggest that fellow competitor’s rifles do not qualify as production guns simply because he is unhappy with the decisions of the committee. He also made and deleted a post accusing Central Region shooters of being “crooked”. We fully understand the disappointment he feels, but being disappointed does not give one license to post half-truths and misleading/false information for hundreds to comment on. We have spoken with the rifle builder and the components suppliers; all are in agreement that what has ensued on social media is bad for everyone involved and they would like to distance themselves from the behavior. Please don’t allow the actions of one shooter to cast a negative light on the companies involved in offering a high-quality product. Matt has been formally warned in writing and verbally twice that he is in violation of PRS social media and code of conduct and Sportsmanship policies. A suspension from the PRS will be swift with any further violations. His disagreement with the decision would not be the cause, as that is understandable. The summary of his violations/actions above would be. We are working to ensure that this does not happen, but that will be up to Matt. We hope to see Matt next year on the line, but the sport as a whole (and what it best for it) will be first and foremost.
We again apologize to our members as we know that situations like this detract from your competitive achievements and the overwhelming success of the season. We work incredibly hard to highlight the 99.9% that do the right thing. We know that this takes the attention away from the many shooters that deserve their moment in the spotlight. We also want to thank those that have taken the time to call or write notes in support of the committee’s decision and the hard work that they do behind the scenes throughout the year. The committee has a difficult but essential role, especially when the decisions that need to be made involve unpleasant consequences for others. We are grateful for their ability to see beyond what is easy to do in the short term and to instead choose what is best for the long-term sustainability and success of the PRS.
Still splitting a lot of hairs in all that,
Letter of Law, that is comical coming from a group that doesn't ENFORCE any rules on shooters, but instead I guarantee this is all about sponsorship
New gun of the PRS, the Ruger coming in 2021
Letter of Law, that is comical coming from a group that doesn't ENFORCE any rules on shooters, but instead I guarantee this is all about sponsorship
New gun of the PRS, the Ruger coming in 2021
Open Class
Limited Class
End of Story, these arbitrary numbers like $2500, can't put a $3k scope on it, etc, are the height of stupidity, you're being scammed and paying to have it happen to you.
As if a GAP Production rifle is on the same footing as a Tikka, Savage, or even Ruger RPR, how is a Sage any different, beyond the publicly available Website BS ... someone should find a post discussing it on here prior to the finale and call it a website advertising it publicly
Limited Class
End of Story, these arbitrary numbers like $2500, can't put a $3k scope on it, etc, are the height of stupidity, you're being scammed and paying to have it happen to you.
As if a GAP Production rifle is on the same footing as a Tikka, Savage, or even Ruger RPR, how is a Sage any different, beyond the publicly available Website BS ... someone should find a post discussing it on here prior to the finale and call it a website advertising it publicly
I thought about shoot PRS series again next year as I have like 6 matches within 8-9 hours drive. No chance now
Shoot Nomad matches, why would you support this douchebaggery,
there are options, vote with your wallet if you continue to support this type of activity, and participation is support, you are telling them it's okay, play the games, we're with you.
there are options, vote with your wallet if you continue to support this type of activity, and participation is support, you are telling them it's okay, play the games, we're with you.
Wow that some stupid drama over a stupid division...
I'm still going to shoot in PRS and be a member. It's a ton of fun and it is well organized.
Where can I find more info about the Nomad Matches? Google fu is failing me...
He just means non-sanctioned, grass-roots matches.. there isn't a Nomad series
If you’re fortunate to live in an area with local matches, you get much more bang for your buck shooting them than 2 day matches.
I can enter 4-6 club matches with the $250-$300 entry a 2 day match has. I can shoot 2-3 club matches with the same amount of ammo as a 2 day.
And generally speaking, you’ll learn as much or more at club matches due to the logistics and no mental pressure of a 2day.
Not knocking the national matches. Just know if your purpose is to improve snd you have ready access to club matches, do those until you’re beating them consistently. Then consider moving up to national level matches.
I can enter 4-6 club matches with the $250-$300 entry a 2 day match has. I can shoot 2-3 club matches with the same amount of ammo as a 2 day.
And generally speaking, you’ll learn as much or more at club matches due to the logistics and no mental pressure of a 2day.
Not knocking the national matches. Just know if your purpose is to improve snd you have ready access to club matches, do those until you’re beating them consistently. Then consider moving up to national level matches.
I'm going to preface my statement by saying I think the production class is a joke and should either 1. Go away entirely or 2. Be extremely limited by cost to truly focus on new shooters. A $2500 rifle from gap is still a custom rifle, it just isn't CUSTOMIZABLE by the purchaser to hit a price point.
With that said, I think the PRS made the right decision.. you can't introduce a rifle 5 days prior to the finale on your FB page, say it costs $2499, only one in the world and call it a production rifle. The "for sale on a website" rule is there for that specific reason.
That isn't to take away from what Matt accomplishments this season.. it's a shitty deal.
With that said, I think the PRS made the right decision.. you can't introduce a rifle 5 days prior to the finale on your FB page, say it costs $2499, only one in the world and call it a production rifle. The "for sale on a website" rule is there for that specific reason.
That isn't to take away from what Matt accomplishments this season.. it's a shitty deal.
The production won’t go away, that’s where $ is at. They should simply create an explicit list of gun models allowed and be done with it , and taking advertisements/ sponsorship fees for sure lol
Why the fuck wouldn’t you have a chrono stage like they do at any national Uspsa match where they inspect your shit and can make a determination on the spot? Instead you champion a guy then take it away days later. All the drama that the PRS has created is 100% warranted. With their drama track record, you’d think they’d learn by now.
Drama aside, it seems as though the PRS made the right decision based on the rules as they were written; unfortunately things come down to technicalities like that in sports like this and golf. Tournaments can be lost by weird rules with practice swings and moving blades of grass, etc. If the gun you’re shooting is on your random gunsmith’s Facebook page for $2450 and no one sees it, and there are no other physical rifles in inventory (aka “produced”) how is that a production rifle? At least the GAP rifle and PVA Hancock were made in large quantities and made available. And I’m assuming they confirmed with PRS first that the rifles were legal per the rules before they made a bunch of them.
My perception is the production class is viewed as being a joke because the difference between a $2500 rifle and a $4000 custom are so minute. This isn’t a $400 stock class Glock versus a $3000 open race gun in IDPA. Obviously in the hands of a talented shooter a production rifle is no different than a full custom, as evidenced by Matt’s 3rd place finish at the finale.
If a shooter isn’t “held back” by shooting a $2499.99 production gun instead of a nearly identical open gun, then what’s the point of the class?
Side point, I also find it funny that production has no restrictions on caliber or ammo, so Doug Koenig shooting production with hand loaded 6 Creed with A-Tips is totally cool. Like someone starting out on a budget - the alleged purpose of the class - would be shooting the same thing?
My perception is the production class is viewed as being a joke because the difference between a $2500 rifle and a $4000 custom are so minute. This isn’t a $400 stock class Glock versus a $3000 open race gun in IDPA. Obviously in the hands of a talented shooter a production rifle is no different than a full custom, as evidenced by Matt’s 3rd place finish at the finale.
If a shooter isn’t “held back” by shooting a $2499.99 production gun instead of a nearly identical open gun, then what’s the point of the class?
Side point, I also find it funny that production has no restrictions on caliber or ammo, so Doug Koenig shooting production with hand loaded 6 Creed with A-Tips is totally cool. Like someone starting out on a budget - the alleged purpose of the class - would be shooting the same thing?
BarricadrsOh hey man.
That prone or off barricades?
As a top half shooter in my local club I take pride in the improvement I have made each of the last 2 years. It has been fun. I know my place and the teaching by the top shooters in our club matches is top notch and always free. If i can improve a few percentage points each few matches that is what I am in it for.
I signed up for my first national match at Navasota. I will do my best and compete and improve. that is fun. This drama is distasteful and gives me second thoughts of paying $300 plus other costs. This sport has so much potential but is quickly getting out of hand for us common shooters. Still love learning and shooting next to pro shooters. What other sport allows you this opportunity?
As things grow and humans are involved, there are always headaches and drama. My very first match was Frank's SHC in 2005 at RO and things have definitely changed - some for the better, and some worse.
I am assuming the Ruger rifle being discussed here is the stainless RPR 6creed with trigger tech and APA Brake?
This kind of stuff is why I like club matches.
This kind of stuff is why I like club matches.
Yea. I see both sides and rationale.
But I agree with everyone, this highlights what a train wreck production class is. Many “production” rifles are just customs without options and lower costs.
The fact that I routinely recommend gap and mpa “production” rifles to people who have no intention to shoot production is ridiculous.
Like @samb300 stated, people running production guns should be at a distinct disadvantage and they are not.....at all. I’m not a fan of tac class in its current form, but at least they are at a disadvantage compared to open.
this one. Matt and Doug got their rifles the same day. post finale the ruger was not available for purchase but they had '12-13' out in the wild and 'orders for 500' likely from distributors/dealers
this one. Matt and Doug got their rifles the same day. post finale the ruger was not available for purchase but they had '12-13' out in the wild and 'orders for 500' likely from distributors/dealers
I guess the argument was also that this is only slight upgrades to current RPR and his rifle was completely new and nothing available.
To me it’s technicality on both sides, but they only applied one technicality. I agree with points made by both sides. It’s a shitshow.
here's the difference.
new RPR selling at $1725-$1800 and the Savage Elite at $1600-$1700 yet they are $2,400 and $2,000 respectively and both companies are STILL making a margin
GA and MPA production guns sell right at the $2,499 price limit and i bet those margins are damn small. but they'll sell damn near every one they make because it's worth more than the $700-$800 difference from the RPR/SavElite
they eliminated the line between actual production off the shelf available at most gun shops and custom gun without options
Dodge Charger Daytona. if they want true production class
new RPR selling at $1725-$1800 and the Savage Elite at $1600-$1700 yet they are $2,400 and $2,000 respectively and both companies are STILL making a margin
GA and MPA production guns sell right at the $2,499 price limit and i bet those margins are damn small. but they'll sell damn near every one they make because it's worth more than the $700-$800 difference from the RPR/SavElite
they eliminated the line between actual production off the shelf available at most gun shops and custom gun without options
Dodge Charger Daytona. if they want true production class
My disdain for production came from a match where there were 4 production guys. 2 in my squad were absolutely what production ought to have been about. They had RPRs, mid grade scopes, and pulling bullets from a factory box. When I consider production that’s the shooters I think of. But who else was in production class? A top 20 National guy who got his trophy by beating farmer bob and guy using a legit sand filled Hanes sock.
I got it, I shouldn’t care, but it’s just lame to me. I think it’s a good premise and could be worthwhile with the right restrictions. Like must be an amateur or have not shot more than X matches. Probably something more with rifle restrictions. I don’t know but what I see now isn’t too exciting.
I got it, I shouldn’t care, but it’s just lame to me. I think it’s a good premise and could be worthwhile with the right restrictions. Like must be an amateur or have not shot more than X matches. Probably something more with rifle restrictions. I don’t know but what I see now isn’t too exciting.
new cartridge, trigger, better brake, and heavier barrel
def a technicality both ways. and imho it should have been left up to the shooting. the way the vote went doesnt give me any reason to support a PRS match director with my money and certainly not with a membership
Matt won ALL 6 regular matches he shot with a Savage and MPA, plus the finale with the new gun
Doug also won 6, but didn't win the other 3. including two head to head with Matt
I don't think either of them did anything wrong. Matt shot for a new sponsor (which was posted everywhere prior to the finale. you're telling me no one noticed XLR post. come on) and Doug shot a new upgraded model.
I'm more disappointed with all the MDs and making the decision they did in the timeframe they did.
Money talks. BS decision. Another reason why I won't be a member again. I just shoot matches.
Definitely tons of gaming in Production. Like bumping up the cost to $2500. If people don't see why that happened then they need to open their eyes.
this one. Matt and Doug got their rifles the same day. post finale the ruger was not available for purchase but they had '12-13' out in the wild and 'orders for 500' likely from distributors/dealers
Correct.. you can't just call Ruger and order a gun, that's nothing new.. has to go through a distributor. Matt's FB post was misleading.
difference between 'you can't order direct but here is a dealer near you that has an order' and 'these are not available'
You can backorder one one through a dealer. But couldn’t acquire one to have on hand to shoot matches side by side with the shooters who had the test rifles.
That’s my understanding.
If we want to get into nuances of the rules, and FB pages aren’t considered “websites” then “publicly available” should mean I can realistically acquire the same rifle the ruger sponsored shooter had. Which doesn’t seem like you can do.
Basically this reads “technically that’s not a website, so no dice. But technically you can order this rifle but technically can’t actually get it. But technically, it’s a version of the rpr that’s already out, so technically it’s kinda the same rifle.....technically.”
They seemed to apply the rules very technically to one rifle, but then used technicality in revers for the ruger.
Technically there isn’t a company website for his rifle and also technically I can’t go buy the actual model ruger that was used.
